Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Beaver on September 11, 2005, 10:38:20 am
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After having looked aroud for the best spa or me, I have selected two models:
Hotspring Vista and Sundance Optima.
My question is regarding the solidity of the shell.
The Hotspring shell seems more fragile, I can feel the acrylic moving when I pull the lip on the side of the spa with my fingers. I was not able to do the same with the Sundance.
Should I worry about the Hotspring acrylic stifness?
From what I read on this forum, The foam is what is supporting the acrylic. What will happen if we have to dig the foam because of a leak? will the structure be as strong as before?
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Do yourself a favor and worry about other things besides the shell. Both shells will last a very long time and the shell material should not make/break your decision.
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The Sundance dealer touted their shell as self-supporting, which the HS is not. (I can't verify that independently)
That said, I would go for the one whose combination of fit and jet feel suits you best. There is enough difference between the two on which to base a solid decision. Both are reputable companies that get excellent feedback on this and other forums.
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No, a HotSpring spa shell will not support the water without the foam. But that's like saying your house will not support the roof without the walls. It is all part of the way the tub is engineered and built.
A Sundance would never support the water if you somehow removed the fiberglass backing...
;)
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Why should they not be concerned with the most expensive part of the spa, should it need replaced. I think it's a quite valid question. And Chas' remarks kind of prove it's important. In the instance of Sundance and HotSpring, an acrylic un drilled shell WITH the reinforcement each company uses, (ABS HS, fiberglass, Sundance) with out the support of the foam, which one will hold 500 gallons with out flattening out. My guess is going to have to be Sundance.
Do yourself a favor and worry about other things besides the shell. Both shells will last a very long time and the shell material should not make/break your decision.
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No, a HotSpring spa shell will not support the water without the foam. But that's like saying your house will not support the roof without the walls. It is all part of the way the tub is engineered and built.
A Sundance would never support the water if you somehow removed the fiberglass backing...
;)
The question wasn't alluding to the backing and why it's stronger, it was about removing the foam if it leaks. If you have two pound foam around the tub, it leaks and is replaced by spray in half-pound foam, is the tub weaker in that spot because it needs the two pound foam to support it? I don't know the answer for HS, but if the Sundance shell is indeed self-supporting because of the fiberglass backing, then for sure the answer is no it is not weaker. I believe that is to what the question alludes.
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Should I worry about the Hotspring acrylic stifness? [glb]No, it will last as long as any other spa shell, longer than most[/glb]
From what I read on this forum, The foam is what is supporting the acrylic. What will happen if we have to dig the foam because of a leak? will the structure be as strong as before?[glb]Yes, we have never had a problem with this in the 21 years we have sold them. In the highly unlikely event that a leak developed, the spa would be repaired and refoamed as good as new[/glb]
HotSpring sells more spas than any other spa company in the world. They would not be #1 if they made an inferior product. Chris H was right when he commented that there are other more important issues when searching for your spa. They are both great spas and I'm sure you will enjoy which ever one you decide on. :)
Terminator
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Which directly relates to the type of backing the manufacturer uses. An abs backed spa is weaker in construction than a fiberglass backed spa. There fore if removing the foam from the spa to repair a leak, then yes it will be weaker in that area.
The question wasn't alluding to the backing and why it's stronger, it was about removing the foam if it leaks. If you have two pound foam around the tub, it leaks and is replaced by spray in half-pound foam, is the tub weaker in that spot because it needs the two pound foam to support it? I don't know the answer for HS, but if the Sundance shell is indeed self-supporting because of the fiberglass backing, then for sure the answer is no it is not weaker. I believe that is to what the question alludes.
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Wisoki,
Good point on the shell being the most expensive parts, but you failed to mention that it is one of the items on a spa that rarely, if ever, will fail. This is for both Hotspring and Sundance.
I personally do not know which one is better (not an engineer). I do know I would still buy a Hotspring even with their shell because I know that the shell generally never goes bad.
Chris
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Why did Watkins Mfg. reduce the Hot Spring shell warranty from 10 years to 7 while maintaining a 10 year on caldera. Hot Spring is the more expensive product, should it not carry a longer structural warranty. Or is it that Watkins and every Hot Spring dealer out there knows that their shells have an astounding cracking problem in years 7 through ten, which Watkins has lost a boat load of money on.
HotSpring sells more spas than any other spa company in the world. They would not be #1 if they made an inferior product. Chris H was right when he commented that there are other more important issues when searching for your spa. They are both great spas and I'm sure you will enjoy which ever one you decide on. :)
Terminator
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Why did Watkins Mfg. reduce the Hot Spring shell warranty from 10 years to 7 while maintaining a 10 year on caldera. Hot Spring is the more expensive product, should it not carry a longer structural warranty. Or is it that Watkins and every Hot Spring dealer out there knows that their shells have an astounding cracking problem in years 7 through ten, which Watkins has lost a boat load of money on.
I have been a dealer for more than 20 years and the shell warranty has always been 7 years. Not sure what you mean about them reducing the warranty? Plus, the HS warranty is not full of holes...they cover any and all problems. And I cannot speak for the entire country or even my state...I can only speak for my dealership. We average 250 HS per year and have for decades. We see less than a 2% shell problem at our dealership. Hopefully this info helps!
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A spa shell IS the most expensive part of the spa. BUT... the warranty on ANYTHING (spas, toasters, bicycles) is only as good as:
A. The company that manufactures it and,
B. The company who sold it to you.
My wife and I bought a brand name, expensive stereo. It broke, and the dealer we bought it from said we had to box it up and ship it back, AT OUR EXPENSE, to the manufacturer. Without going into all the gory details, it wasn't a plesant experience. Therefore I believe that the most important aspect of considering potential failure on ANYTHING is:
A. Who made it? (what's their reputation, etc.) and,
B. Who will take care of it if it breaks?
Those should be the determining factors.
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Beaver, beware of disinformation that is spread by dealers that compete with HotSpring. You'll find that this is the type of dealer that will disparage any brand of spa except the one they are selling. You want to look for a dealer that has stuck with a brand they believe in for many years and not someone who flip-flops between brands.
Do the research for yourself, use your good common sense, find the spa and company that you are comfortable with. Sundance and HotSpring are both excellent companies with an outstanding record of taking care of their customers.
Terminator
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What will happen if we have to dig the foam because of a leak? will the structure be as strong as before?
The amazing thing is this was one of two questions asked. What the person got was a bunch of lines other than the answer. The HS dealers, who should know the answer, ducked answering the question repeatedly, and actually still have not answered it.
And for the record, I'm not a dealer. I am a shopper who has done a considerable amount of research. I'm not knocking HS product. It's a nice spa, but just doesn't fit well for me and I'm not sold on the MotoMassage. But for the heavy HS representation I see here, folks selling them sure got defensive and evasive awfully quick when the chips weren't going to fall their way. Go with the seats and jets that feel best to you and you will be happy with either brand.
To Terminator's credit, I see him post positive comments about other brands a spas and then explain why he prefers what he sells. That is a good salesperson.
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Excuse me, but if there were to be a leak, and foam were removed to repair the leak, wouldn't part of the repair be to replace the removed foam?
Therefore, the spa would be just as strong after the repair as before.
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Please refer to my first post in this thread. I put the answer to Beaver's questions in the glowing red text, thinking it would be more obvious to see. It didn't show up as well as I would have liked, but I did answer the question.
I just figured since I answered the question, everyone else decided that was the final authoritative statement. ;D
BTW, thank you for the compliment. I try to do what I can. :)
Terminator
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Oh, and as a followup, I went and pulled on the shell of every spa I have in the showroom like Beaver said he (she?) did. I'm not a real small guy and I couldn't feel any flex in the acrylic shell AT ALL. ??? The Endurol shell flexed a tiny amount, but I'll put it up against any shell on the market (as I've stated many times before). Hmmmmmmmmm..........
Terminator
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Excuse me, but if there were to be a leak, and foam were removed to repair the leak, wouldn't part of the repair be to replace the removed foam?
Therefore, the spa would be just as strong after the repair as before.
Ah but is the same density of foam used to replace the foam? Are the field guys spraying in 1/2 pound to replace 2 pound? I realize this may be splitting hairs, but occasionally, I'm a splitting hairs kind of person. I alluded to it once already and no one bit to substantiate it or deny it.
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The test I did was to go on the middle of one of the side of the spa, try to put my finger between the shell and the plastic side. I was able to feel the shell moving.
As for the previous note that mention that once the repair would be done, the spa would be filled again with foam.
I'm still wondering if the spa will still be as solid as before. When the spa is filled initially in the shop, the foam is somewhat liquid and goes everywhere and dry all in one block. Now if you fill a whole that contain dried foam, the new foam will only have the dried foam to bond with.
So my question again is: will it be as solid?
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Please refer to my first post in this thread. I put the answer to Beaver's questions in the glowing red text, thinking it would be more obvious to see. It didn't show up as well as I would have liked, but I did answer the question.
I just figured since I answered the question, everyone else decided that was the final authoritative statement. ;D
See my comment to the Doc re: splitting hairs
BTW, thank you for the compliment. I try to do what I can. :)
Yep - I see you helping everyone out, not just those who are considering or own a HS. ;)
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"Ah but is the same density of foam used to replace the foam? Are the field guys spraying in 1/2 pound to replace 2 pound? "
Well, if they were, I'd tend to say their not properly doing the repair........... going back to Chas' anology, if you have termite damage in your home and they need to replace some 2x4 framing, is replaceling it with 1x4 a proper repair?
"I'm still wondering if the spa will still be as solid as before. When the spa is filled initially in the shop, the foam is somewhat liquid and goes everywhere and dry all in one block. "
This isn't quite correct. The foam isn't applied in one fell swoop but is sprayed on in layers. You spay a little layer, wait for it to expand, then spray another and another till the whole thing is full.
"Now if you fill a whole that contain dried foam, the new foam will only have the dried foam to bond with. "
And I would think it will bond as well to the rough edges of the hole as well as it would bond to a new layer of foam (like when it's initially applied at the factory)
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"Ah but is the same density of foam used to replace the foam? Are the field guys spraying in 1/2 pound to replace 2 pound? "
Well, if they were, I'd tend to say their not properly doing the repair........... going back to Chas' anology, if you have termite damage in your home and they need to replace some 2x4 framing, is replaceling it with 1x4 a proper repair?
LOL - based on how they build homes today, I'd say if they could get away with it and you can't see it, they'd do it.
I notice you said you tended to believe they wouldn't be doing it right. So what is the procedure. Do they replace like with like regarding the foam? I suspect the field tech isn't going to take the time to layer it in. He's going to squirt and go.
The person actually asking the question seems to have a genuine concern. Can we get a straight answer rather than speculation? I'm now curious simply based on all the tap dancing going on.
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Just my 2 cents:
When we rebuild the Sundances from 1995, we remove a good amount of foam. We put non itch white insulation back in with a reflective foil on the back of the wooden panel.
We have noticed 0 issues with this as we have not seen any of the tubs warp or crack. We even had a customer pressure wash the foam off the bottom of his tub and left no foam whatsoever. Still no issues.
The Sundance has a number of large pvc pipes epoxied to the bottom of the spa. These pvc pipes are met on the bottom by a 2 x 4 which distributes the weight. On the very outside fo the shell, there are wooden supports epoxied under the lip. There are a number of wooden supports that run from the top to the bottom, as well as some cross members.
I know nothing about the Hotspring shell, but I can vouch for the strength of the Sundance shell.
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The dealership in which I now work has three stores. Ona a Sundance store, Two a Caldera store (the one I manage) and 3 a Hot Spring store, this info comes directly to me through the dealership. 18 years open, not a newbie.
I have been a dealer for more than 20 years and the shell warranty has always been 7 years. Not sure what you mean about them reducing the warranty? Plus, the HS warranty is not full of holes...they cover any and all problems. And I cannot speak for the entire country or even my state...I can only speak for my dealership. We average 250 HS per year and have for decades. We see less than a 2% shell problem at our dealership. Hopefully this info helps!
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Why did Watkins Mfg. reduce the Hot Spring shell warranty from 10 years to 7 while maintaining a 10 year on caldera. [glb]FALSE INFORMATION[/glb]
Or is it that Watkins and every Hot Spring dealer out there knows that their shells have an astounding cracking problem in years 7 through ten, which Watkins has lost a boat load of money on.[glb]FALSE INFORMATION[/glb]
We repair approximately 1 or 2 cracked shells/ year. Every one of them has been on a pre-1995 spa. The only new HotSpring Spa in the last 5 years we have had to repair a crack on was this one:
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC00708.jpg)
A 60 foot oak tree was blown over in a storm and landed on this 2002 HotSpring Jetsetter. It was 6 feet in diameter and hit dead-center on the spa lengthwise. It cracked the Endurol shell on each end above the waterline. The shell was popped back into place, Permalite was applied to the cracks, the Everwood was nailed back on, the spa filled with water and plugged in, and the customer uses it to this day. Total repair bill.......$95 (plus a new cover).
Terminator
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The test I did was to go on the middle of one of the side of the spa, try to put my finger between the shell and the plastic side. I was able to feel the shell moving.
As for the previous note that mention that once the repair would be done, the spa would be filled again with foam.
I'm still wondering if the spa will still be as solid as before. When the spa is filled initially in the shop, the foam is somewhat liquid and goes everywhere and dry all in one block. Now if you fill a whole that contain dried foam, the new foam will only have the dried foam to bond with.
So my question again is: will it be as solid?
Yes, the spa will be as good as new. It will be as rock solid as before. It will last as long as any spa on the market, longer than most. It will probably be the last problem that you will ever have to concern yourself with. I'm sure the Sundance Spa will do the same. :)
Terminator
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The person actually asking the question seems to have a genuine concern. Can we get a straight answer rather than speculation? I'm now curious simply based on all the tap dancing going on.
It seems to me there are two questions embedded here:
1. If a spa technician (presumably the cheapest guy through the yellow pages because we are after warranty) just dumps some "great stuff" into the hot tub after doing massive amounts of digging, will my shell crack?
2. If the repair is done "correctly" is there still any lingering damage/weakening of the shell.
The dealers here have, without question, stated that in case #2 the tub is as good as new.
In case #1 it seems there might be a problem.
My opinion is that any person who incorrectly fixes any aspect of a spa can cause damage to it. The bigger question is the shell's ability to distribute load. Chances are the 2lb foam has plenty of ability to support the shell, water, soakers, times 2. A weakened area will have no negative effect based on the shell's ability to distribute the load over the entire shell bottom.
If all the foam is removed and replaced, or 50% is removed and replaced then there will most probably be a problem. If we are talking about the 5%-10% that might be replaced for leaks over the life of the spa, that is probably not a problem, and probably why the HS dealers on here do not report on this kind of repair being frequent.
I made up the numbers above, but I bet they are in the ballpark. Maybe some service techs can come on here and talk specifics.
_Ed
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The dealership in which I now work has three stores. Ona a Sundance store, Two a Caldera store (the one I manage) and 3 a Hot Spring store, this info comes directly to me through the dealership. 18 years open, not a newbie.
Well, it's easy to verify if you know what you are talking about:
Can any other HS dealers out there confirm that HS used to have a 10 year shell warranty that they backed down to 7 years?
-Ed
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As I will be leaving for home within the hour to accept delivery of my Beachcomber 730 ( :D), I have a question that I have not seen in my fairly recent (2 months) perusing of this forum: Although my tub is FF, and is also backed up by support braces under the seats, if a leak occurs, I assume that what you will see is water seeping from somewhere under or around the tub. That tells me (and the repair tech) that SOMEHTING needs to be repaired. However, with dozens of jets placed around the tub, how is there any accurate way of knowing which of these fittings it is that's leaking? Just wondering......
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I'm not a service tech but this question comes up alot. There are several ways people have listed to finding a leak:
1. The foa will not sponge up the water evenly throughout the tub. If you have a leak in one corner, the foam will be wet in that corner, not in the other 3 corners of the tub.
2. There are levels of "wet" from damp to saturated which gives you a "hot/cold" indication of where the leak is.
3. Technicians familiar with a particular brand know where weak or trouble spots are on tubs. Few people can say when a leak will occur, but many happen in predictable locations (and most happen in the motor compartment where foam is not an issue).
4. If the leak is very old (lots of wet foam around) a dye is added to the water which will color the foam making the leak much easier to find.
In general the worse kind of leak to fix in any tub is one directly under the footwell because of access. In either case you would probably need to tip the tub on its side.
Now, I'm not a service technician and my FF tub has never had a leak, so take the above at face value, but I believe that was some of the tips presented from hot tub techs who post on here.
Many techs have stated that find a leak in a FF tub is not a make or break part of the service. Digging through foam is probably not fun but a pro can find the leaks pretty quickly.
-Ed
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Ebbirane,
Your Hot Spring is full of "closed cell" foam...it wil NOT soak water like a sponge. The water will find the path of least resistance, which could cause the ground to be wet at the opposite side of the spa from where the leak actually is.
By the way Sundance shells are not fiberglass backed...they back the acrylic with polyester and vinylester resins in conjunction with a "proprietory laminate" I could tell you but........................
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Ebbirane,
Your Hot Spring is full of "closed cell" foam...it wil NOT soak water like a sponge. The water will find the path of least resistance, which could cause the ground to be wet at the opposite side of the spa from where the leak actually is.
By the way Sundance shells are not fiberglass backed...they back the acrylic with polyester and vinylester resins in conjunction with a "proprietory laminate" I could tell you but........................
Cool! Iwould imagine the fact that closed cell foam doesn't soak up the water (thus making a discernable path of water leakage) would make finding the source of the leak much easier, even if it did run to the other side of the tub.
Thanks for the correction!
- Ed
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In the EXTREMELY rare case that a leak develops in a HotSpring spa (and it's not a check valve or a clamp in the equipment compartment), our certified technicians can usually pinpoint it within 10 minutes. It ain't rocket science. ;D.
Terminator
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If there is one manufacture that backs their product it is Hotsprings, my families business has been servicing spas for almost 30 years and we have never had a call on a Hotsprings under warranty. Which means to me that if the dealer doesn't take care of you, Hotsprings as a manufacture will. That being said, I do believe Hotsprings is a company built more around marketing and advertisement than building a solid tub, as far as structure. Their spa packs and components are very solid but the shells, cabinets, covers are very light weigh and cheaper as far as material cost and labor in manufacturing from other top manufactures. If full foam is what you think is best, I would go with a Hotsprings, they do a full foam tub the right way, and the materials they use work for that style of tub. They have good dealers in Ohio, and from what I hear all over. I would not worry about the shell as far as staying structurally sound with a Hotsprings, or that they will not back their product.
What I do see alot on Hotsprings, and other spas with ABS shells is hair line cracks around the top of the shell above the water line. Which really doesn't affect the structure of the shell, but is a result of ABS going from an area of warm condensation, then being exposed to very cold temps and wind chillls when the cover is open.
I would go with a Hotsprings over a Sundance any day, for nothing more than dealer and manufacture support after you own the product.
This is my opinion from what I have seen in my area the dealers and support my be different in your area I would get references from both dealers. It is not fair to judge a manufacture from a small portion of it's dealers. Do as much reference and background check on your local dealers as possible.
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Is that hairline crack still a problem or was it only on previous year models.
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The dealership in which I now work has three stores. Ona a Sundance store, Two a Caldera store (the one I manage) and 3 a Hot Spring store, this info comes directly to me through the dealership. 18 years open, not a newbie.
I am sorry if you got the impression I was implying you are a newbie. :-) I thought my post was clear but let me reiterate. I can ONLY speak for my dealership which has had very little shell issues with HS in the past. My stores are in Michigan BTW. If you or a manager at another location of your company says you have a lot of issues after 7 years than it must be so. But the warranty has not been reduced from 10 to 7 years...it was always 7. Hoepfully this clears this up! BTW I think Sundance is a great spa and Beaver couldn't go wrong either way! Whichever spa he enjoys the most with the best dealership behind it will help him make his decision. Good luck!
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Well, it's easy to verify if you know what you are talking about:
Can any other HS dealers out there confirm that HS used to have a 10 year shell warranty that they backed down to 7 years?-Ed
I have sold/serviced them since 1986 and they have never had a 10 year warranty in that time. I even asked my wife! Call the factory if you wish - 1-800-999-4688.
One more item: HotSpring puts a very dense layer of foam on the back of the shell. This layer is generally under an inch thick - it's made of 30# density foam. Since it is not in the way of a plumbing repair, it generally isn't even touched. Puting the foam back after a repair leaves this hard layer untouched - and helps the new foam to distribute load just as well as the original foam did.
I am pretty sure that the spray kits which we use to re-foam a spa contain 2# foam, but I'll check on that.
I have done a few repairs which required removing a large amount of foam: the tub was fixed, returned to service and went on to give years and years of trouble-free service from that point on.
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Verified: the spray foam used to fill repair holes is 2 pound density.
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That being said, I do believe Hotsprings is a company built more around marketing and advertisement than building a solid tub, as far as structure. Their spa packs and components are very solid but the shells, cabinets, covers are very light weigh and cheaper as far as material cost and labor in manufacturing from other top manufactures.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/EastTexasSpa/DSC00708.jpg)
60 foot oak tree? $95 repair bill? Anybody else got a story like that? I'd say that's a pretty well built spa.
Terminator
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I have sold/serviced them since 1986 and they have never had a 10 year warranty in that time. I even asked my wife! Call the factory if you wish - 1-800-999-4688.
One more item: HotSpring puts a very dense layer of foam on the back of the shell. This layer is generally under an inch thick - it's made of 30# density foam. Since it is not in the way of a plumbing repair, it generally isn't even touched. Putting the foam back after a repair leaves this hard layer untouched - and helps the new foam to distribute load just as well as the original foam did.
I am pretty sure that the spray kits which we use to re-foam a spa contain 2# foam, but I'll check on that.
I have done a few repairs which required removing a large amount of foam: the tub was fixed, returned to service and went on to give years and years of trouble-free service from that point on.
This thread would have been 1 page if you wrote that last week.
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By the way Sundance shells are not fiberglass backed...they back the acrylic with polyester and vinylester resins in conjunction with a "proprietory laminate" I could tell you but........................
LOL
Polyester and Vinylester resins are fiberglass.
"My car doesn't run on fuel, it runs on Diesel"
Here is site with information on the various resins that can be used to create "fiberglass"
http://www.plexxa.com/s/fiberglass_resin
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LOL
Polyester and Vinylester resins are fiberglass.
"My car doesn't run on fuel, it runs on Diesel"
Here is site with information on the various resins that can be used to create "fiberglass"
http://www.plexxa.com/s/fiberglass_resin
Resins are used to BOND fiberglass, for it to be "fiberglass" there has to be acually glass involved :o
http://www.answers.com/topic/fiberglass
If you're going to get technical....know the technology!!
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Resins are used to BOND fiberglass, for it to be "fiberglass" there has to be acually glass involved :o
http://www.answers.com/topic/fiberglass
If you're going to get technical....know the technology!!
OK. So you are saying that the polyester and vinylester resins are used to bond a laminent that is top secret, but is not fibergalss?
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boys, boys, boys, the question has been answered now go to your corners for a time out.
This in nothing more than two male egos posturing and they are both right and neither one will back down.
As for the question, this is a NONE issue, it is easy to recognize both manufacturers are reputable and very good choices, so Beaver, get your checkbook out and make a decision, either way you won't be wrong.
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h.S. has a great sales pitch on how they use multiple levels of foam density to achive proper structural support as well as great insulation. Being a repairman that has fixed many H.S. and having recieved the "Can" of foam from H.S. to replace said foam, how can the half lb. foam that they sent me to repair their spa, make the spa as good as it was before i took out the 30 lb. foam. I may be new to this board. but it sounds like some of the H.S. "salespeople" are trying to smooth over a valid question by being vauge.
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Dead horse fodder?
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It would make for interesting discussion if we could get a chart of avg thickness and composition and some measure of strength of each mfr's shell. I have a feeling the tap dance shoes would really come out. It would have the makings of an Arctic cover reinforcement/thickness discussion...........
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Who in the world is tapdancing? It damn sure isn't me and I haven't seen indications that anyone else is. Reading comprehension is a fundamental skill that is essential in today's society. What question hasn't been addressed or answered exponentially? ???
Terminator
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Who in the world is tapdancing? It damn sure isn't me and I haven't seen indications that anyone else is. Reading comprehension is a fundamental skill that is essential in today's society. What question hasn't been addressed or answered exponentially? ???
Terminator
Read through the thread. To me there was some tap dancin going on. It took until page three to get a reasonably straight answer from CHAS which was subsequenty challenged again by a new to the forum poster (regarding the 2# replacement foam). I'd have sworn we had politicians answering questions ;D
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I'm not trying to nitpick you, stl-rex. :) I did re-read the whole thread and I sincerely thought I answered Beaver's question when he/she asked if they should be concerned with the shell's stiffness and if it would be as solid as before. I answered the 2 questions in my very first post in glowing red letters.
Then, we get some little devil spreading false information about HotSprings' warranty that was soon debunked. Then someone throws out that HotSprings' shells and cabinets are subpar in quality and I provide proof to show otherwise (a picture is worth a thousand words), then there's a disagreement on fiberglass, and all this occurred after I answered Beavers' first post.
Some folks like to stir the pot around here, that's fine, it's all in good fun! ;D But don't throw out a bunch of nonsense without backing it up! I'll only deal in facts on this forum until the day my hair falls out.
Terminator
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It would make for interesting discussion if we could get a chart of avg thickness and composition and some measure of strength of each mfr's shell. I have a feeling the tap dance shoes would really come out. It would have the makings of an Arctic cover reinforcement/thickness discussion...........
so is the thickness more important or is it the length of the spa that is the deciding factor? ;) ;D ;D ::)
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so is the thickness more important or is it the length of the spa that is the deciding factor? ;) ;D ;D ::)
LOL
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I know... I know... its not the size of your spa that matters the most. ::)Its knowing how to properly use your spa...... THATS the real deciding factor! ;D ;D
its important to keep your spa properly treated and sanitized, or you could end up with funny smells, cloudy water, etc.... ;) ;)
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Aww, shuchs, thanks for noticing. I belive I did misspeak, however, the fact remains from the same parent company one has a 7 year and the other a ten year. Also, judging from your photo, you are done dealing in facts! ;)
Then, we get some little devil spreading false information about HotSprings' warranty that was soon debunked.
Some folks like to stir the pot around here, that's fine, it's all in good fun! ;D But don't throw out a bunch of nonsense without backing it up! I'll only deal in facts on this forum until the day my hair falls out.
Terminator
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I think Chas provided the 800# to HotSprings. Call and get the answer.
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Aww, shuchs, thanks for noticing. I belive I did misspeak, however, the fact remains from the same parent company one has a 7 year and the other a ten year. Also, judging from your photo, you are done dealing in facts! ;)
wait! wait! :o :o
my turn to nit pick !! the same parent company??? 2 different products with 2 different warranty periods???? come on now.... nearly every manufacture of consumer products, from hot wheels cars, to computers, to spas, all offer different price points and different warranties. the same "parent company" make a $29k town and country minivan, the $65k viper, and also the $120k 560sec. I'll bet that it is a fact that the warranties are different there too...... ;) ;) ::)
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I love how y'all do all you can to brush this under the rug. Caldera has 5 distinct lines. Aquatic Melodies, Utopia, Paradise, Highland and Oasis. Their Warranties (structural) are 10, 10, 10, 5 and 3 respectivly. Your analogy is like a colander, it doesn't hold water. The Aquatic Melodies, Paradise and Utopia series would be akin to the viper the highland series akin to the tow and country and the oasis akin to the neon. Apples to apples the HotSpring line and the Utopia/Paradise series are, so........
wait! wait! :o :o
my turn to nit pick !! the same parent company??? 2 different products with 2 different warranty periods???? come on now.... nearly every manufacture of consumer products, from hot wheels cars, to computers, to spas, all offer different price points and different warranties. the same "parent company" make a $29k town and country minivan, the $65k viper, and also the $120k 560sec. I'll bet that it is a fact that the warranties are different there too...... ;) ;) ::)
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Just to fan the fire....... ;D
How about:
Hotspring = Lexus or Cadillac or Mercedes
Caldera = Toyota or Buick or Chrylser
Tiger River = Scion or Chevrolet or Dodge
Since we're all into car analogies..........LOL
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Just to fan the fire....... ;D
How about:
Hotspring = Lexus or Cadillac or Mercedes
Caldera = Toyota or Buick or Chrylser
Tiger River = Scion or Chevrolet or Dodge
Since we're all into car analogies..........LOL
Then the Flim flam mans spas would be what? One of those beat up old, used Corollas that the kids put an oversized spolier on the back, neon lighting under the carriage and and extra big tail pipe on it and claim it's a high performance, suped up hot rod? ;)
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Then the Flim flam mans spas would be what? One of those beat up old, used Corollas that the kids put an oversized spolier on the back, neon lighting under the carriage and and extra big tail pipe on it and claim it's a high performance, suped up hot rod? ;)
Nah, Toyota's are too reliable.......maybe a sooped up AMC Gremlin, or better yet.........a sooped up Yugo.
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Lets stir the pot some more… Are the Caldera shells made in Mexico?
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I love how y'all do all you can to brush this under the rug.
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Their Warranties (structural) are 10, 10, 10, 5 and 3 respectivly.
Wisoki, what do you mean by structural? The caldera has a shell surface warranty of 7 years, same as the Hot Spring.
Now, Caldera has an EXTRA warranty that says the shell won't leak for 10 years.
Why does the shell surface warranty expire 3 YEARS before the shell leak warranty? Is it because after 7 years the shell will begin to be damaged, just not enough to leak.
Speaking of structure... why does the caldera only cover the tub's cabinet for 3 years?? That seems very low.
For warranty facts, let's all go to the direct sources. Some people have a way of forgetting things. ::)
Caldera Warranty Page:
http://www.calderaspas.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tubs/warranty1.html
Hot Springs Warranty Page
http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/warranty.html
-Ed
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Structure and surface are two entirely different things. Keeping with the vehicle analogy, chasis is to paint job as spa structure is to acrylic surface.
I need a bigger spoon, I certainly cannot stir with this here pitch fork!
Wisoki, what do you mean by structural? The caldera has a shell surface warranty of 7 years, same as the Hot Spring.
Now, Caldera has an EXTRA warranty that says the shell won't leak for 10 years.
Why does the shell surface warranty expire 3 YEARS before the shell leak warranty? Is it because after 7 years the shell will begin to be damaged, just not enough to leak.
Speaking of structure... why does the caldera only cover the tub's cabinet for 3 years?? That seems very low.
For warranty facts, let's all go to the direct sources. Some people have a way of forgetting things. ::)
Caldera Warranty Page:
http://www.calderaspas.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tubs/warranty1.html
Hot Springs Warranty Page
http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/warranty.html
-Ed
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A spa shell warranty refers to the pretty part of the spa that you see. It is most commonly warranted against cracking and delamination due to manufacturers defet. In the vast majority of spas on the market shell cracks will not leak, because they are not structural and do not go any deeper than the reinforcing STRUCTURE of the spa, be it ABS backed, fiberglass backed or tri fusion gobeldy gook bonded.
Wisoki, what do you mean by structural? The caldera has a shell surface warranty of 7 years, same as the Hot Spring.
Now, Caldera has an EXTRA warranty that says the shell won't leak for 10 years.
Why does the shell surface warranty expire 3 YEARS before the shell leak warranty? Is it because after 7 years the shell will begin to be damaged, just not enough to leak.
Speaking of structure... why does the caldera only cover the tub's cabinet for 3 years?? That seems very low.
For warranty facts, let's all go to the direct sources. Some people have a way of forgetting things. ::)
Caldera Warranty Page:
http://www.calderaspas.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tubs/warranty1.html
Hot Springs Warranty Page
http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/warranty.html
-Ed
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Nope, not all of them. The only ones made in Mexico are the Oasis series spas. In an effort to supply the market with a 3495 spa that has the same quality pumps and jets and is still supported by the USA manufacturer.
Lets stir the pot some more… Are the Caldera shells made in Mexico?
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[size=10]Yes, they are.[/size]