Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: xqqqsme on August 22, 2005, 11:50:26 am
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Hi, new to the forum. Saw lots of spas over the past several months and was about to buy Hot Springs but saw a good value spa at a small local vender that just opened his doors. It's called the Joseph Alexander Collection by US Spas. Manufacturer is Kits International. Can anyone tell me about this line of spas? I saw the Solstice model and was quoted $6200 installed with cover and chemicals.
You folks are helpful so I'm asking for your advise.
Thanks!
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Hi, new to the forum. Saw lots of spas over the past several months and was about to buy Hot Springs but saw a good value spa at a small local vender that just opened his doors. It's called the Joseph Alexander Collection by US Spas. Manufacturer is Kits International. Can anyone tell me about this line of spas? I saw the Solstice model and was quoted $6200 installed with cover and chemicals.
You folks are helpful so I'm asking for your advise.
Thanks!
The US spa was a "good value" or a good price? I don't know too much about them (search here and on other sites as I know I've seen some posts) but I'd look very closely on this one. This purchase needs to last you the next 12+ years and you want something that is built to last, designed to please and that has a warranty that will is both thorough and that will be honored without question.
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NO WAY! Stick with a reputable brand and an established dealer! Good luck!
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Poohbear
Your stock answer to anybody's question on spas seems to be only buy one of four or five brands. What is your basis of expertise? Have you owned several spas? Are you a dealer? If you are a service tech with several years of experience, others might be more inclined to listen to you.
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Poohbear
Your stock answer to anybody's question on spas seems to be only buy one of four or five brands. What is your basis of expertise? Have you owned several spas? Are you a dealer? If you are a service tech with several years of experience, others might be more inclined to listen to you.
Inquiring minds want to know!
Well,
I would agree with Poohbear and I have owned several brands personally, been a dealer for several different brands, serviced/sold/delivered thousands of spas and am a dealer of two of the higher rated brands.
IMO, unless your getting something no one else has or saving a ton of money I would say that Poohbear's advice would apply!
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And how did top rated spas get to be that way?
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Poohbear
I found the answer to my question in another post. You are a dealer. Let me guess... Hotsprings? Caldera?
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Well,
I would agree with Poohbear...
Stuart, as you know I respect your input immensely, and in the situation described by xqqqsme, (new dealer, unknown spa) I also agree ... but I think that JJ has a point in that IMO a dealer should identify themselves as such when recommending their brand over another, and they should provide a basis for that opinion beyond "xyz is a major brand, abc isn't". Within the regulars on the site this isn't an issue, we know who sells or owns what, and most of the dealers (you included) are great about acknowledging that there are several good choices in addition to what they sell-- in fact they usually go out of their way to avoid voicing their natural bias. Poohbear just hasn't found that tone yet, and JJ and I called him on it because he happened to "dis" a couple of lesser known brands that we have had positive experience with.
As you well know, there are a lot of small brands out there that build a quality tub, using the same materials, techniques and components as the "big names", and they stand behind their products as well as their larger competitors. The problem is distinguishing them from the scam artists and fly-by-night operations, and determining if they will be around for the long haul. For most people, it is probably easier and safer to go with a known commodity, just like somebody that doesn't know cars is better off with a new car and warranty, rather than saving money on a used car that they don't know how to evaluate. That doesn't make a Vita/Saratoga/Dynasty/Bullfrog, etc a bad choice, just one that you need to do your homework on.
Poohbear, if you have direct knowledge of concerns regarding a brand, please share, that is one of the great values of this board. Please just give us more info than "stay away", and a simple "I sell Hotspring" will allow readers to know your natural biases.
Cal
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Soakin and others,
Thank you for the quality responses and grounded evaluations. I still am seriously considering this model over the better known, albeit, costlier brands. It is the (Solstice model in the Joseph Alexander Collection. You can see the website by hitting this link http://www.jalexandercollection.com
But, an engineer by trade, I can't help but look at the features and quality construction, in my evaluation.
Here's what I found out since I posted this question, the factory is 3 years old, located in Florida and they manufacture about 5000 units per year. This is their highest quality line. They claim they wet test all units and use what appear to be quality components (Balboa M7 controls, Auqaflow pumps) They also say they don't fill the cavity with foam because the construction and insulation methods used provide sufficient heat year round. They say they build to more exact standards, but who would say diferent? Anyway, they look and feel high quality.
The vendor also sells Hydro Spa's and said he could sell me one of those which he has been selling for 30 years. (other locations) He says that both are great spas and that The Solstice spa is made better and will last long, has a good warranty and support network of technicians.
The vendor gave me the name of the Factory and I called yeaterday so I'll keep everyone posted on what is revealed in the return call.
In ending, thank everyone for the comments and I will be guided by your advise.
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Danger Will Robinson, Danger!!!!
I saw in your previous post where you mentioned HydroSpa. Read this
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1124126088, particularly the part about HydroSpa. If they are in anyway associated with this outfit, you are throwing your money away. There are con artists in the spa industry, so use your head. :)
Terminator
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Here is what he is looking at.
(http://www.jalexandercollection.com/BestSpaPics/60.jpg)
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...the factory is 3 years old, located in Florida and they manufacture about 5000 units per year... They also say they don't fill the cavity with foam because the construction and insulation methods used provide sufficient heat year round... spa is made better and will last long, has a good warranty and support network of technicians.
xqqqsme,
Anytime someone puts a link to a mfg and provides a lot of sales pitch in their post, I start to wonder if we are being played. If you are seriously considering this, here are a few things to consider:
1. The thermopane insulation method has been thoroughly discussed here, do a search to find the lengthy threads on the topic. My take on it, there are only a few mfg that do it well, and others here would debate if even they are effective.
2. Three years of existence is not a very long track record to allow you to feel comfortable regarding their quality processes, warranty support, or if they will even be there at the end of your warranty.
3. Support network of techicians? Does this imply that the dealers don't provide the service themselves?
Just to clarify, when I spoke in defense of small mfg, I was referring to companies that have been around for several years, with a solid dealer network, but just aren't as prominent in the national market. US Spas may or may not fit that definition, but you better feel very comfortable about the dealer's willingness and ability to stand behind the product, or your own abilitity to deal with any issues that may come up if you are going to venture this far off the beaten path. Good luck.
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Soakin,
Your not being played. Sorry I really tried to give the group all the information I had in case it helped find out about a probelm spa manufacturer.
I was hours from purchasing a Spa. It was the Sundance. I stopped to see a Hot Springs and was told I didn't have to use chlorine to disinfect and at that point I became confused. They both looked good they cost about the same, $10K to $11K This is a major purchase and this forum has helped me narrow down the models I would consider. Its just that I had not heard about this Brand, and apparently, nobody else has either. Right now I think the savings are not worth the potenial risks because:
1-They don't have factory technicians here in Northern NJ, to service the units, just independent contractors and
2-The Factory rep hasn't called me back yet. I thought it would important to hear from a potential buyer but I guess I'm wrong.
Thanks for the input.
Time to re-look at the Sundance and Hot Springs again.
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xqqsme,
My apologies for questioning your sincerity, I just try to stay out of threads that muddy the site with thinly vieled propaganda, and I wasn't sure about yours.
Regarding your search, the point of my original post is that there are lots of good choices out there in between the HS/SD and the US Spas of the market. You certainly don't have to spend $10k+ to get a good spa, even from the big names. Take the time to figure what your likes and needs are, look around and wet test the ones you like. That will time better spent than tracking down the factory rep (no offense Steve :))
One other point I'll leave you with. Just because a dealer chooses to use contract service rather than in-house isn't necessarily a bad thing . What is a bad thing is if the dealer isn't responsible for providing the service and you have to access the mfg and "service network" yourself. Good luck.
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".... It's called the Joseph Alexander Collection by US Spas. .."
Joseph Alexander? Didn't he play George Castanza on Seinfield? ;)
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Joseph Alexander? Didn't he play George Castanza on Seinfield? ;)
No, that was Jason. Joseph is his brother that does the bad Chrysler commercials with Lee Iaccoca. 8)
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I may be off base here as I'm new to all this and my hot tub is still about a month away, so I can't say as I have any actual experience, just some bits and pieces of knowledge that I've picked up on from reading these forums. From looking at the picture of the tub does any one else feel that a disproportionate amount of the jets are small jets. Looking at one of there other tubs on the web page (101 jets) the ratio is even more out of whack. My impression from what I've read is that the larger jets tend to provide a better message, while the smaller ones may tend to sting a bit. I know that all manufacturers use different combinations of large and small jets, but all the other tubs I've looked at seem more balanced. By using smaller jets can they get away with using smaller/less pumps? I may be way off on my line of thought here, and if I am please let me know, but it just doesn't look right to me.
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I'm curious if anyone can answer WHO really builds the following brands of spas:
Sunco
Sundaze
Sunseeker
HydroSpa
US-Spas
Gulf Coast
Leisure Bay
Superior
I think the first 4 are made in Daytona FL and are the brand marketed by that scamming Stacey Diego. They all look very similiar and are somewhat fuzzy in regards to their place of manufacture. Are these companies buying generic shells from someplace? Sure looks like it.
Terminator
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here in Northern NJ
Where in Northern NJ. I'm in NW NJ and bought my tub (HS Envoy) in Middletown, NY.
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Terminator, you provided a link when someone mentioned Hydro Spas, but that link said nothing about that brand. Is Sunco the manufacturer of Hydro Spas? I've seen several negative comments on this forum about Hydro Spas, but nothing from someone who actually seems to own one. Is there anyone out there who does own a tub manufactured by that company? Is the problem the quality of the tub, or is it a problem with service after the sale.
I'm not trying to be flippant. We're seriously looking for a hot tub and were not interested in spending a fortune on one, so we're looking at ALL possibilities.
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Hi SuziQ!
There was mention in that link about Hydro Spa, but it was easy to miss. Hydro Spa is one of the brand names (along with Sundaze, Sunseeker, Sunco) of a disreputable company out of Florida that manufactures very, very cheap spas and uses individuals to sell them out of storage buildings and on the side of the road.
One of the worst is a woman named Stacey Diaz aka Stacey Diego aka Stacey Smart. She operates primarily in Texas but she has associates working around the country. If you ever answer an ad in the Thrifty Nickel or American Classified paper where someone has "a $5700 spa that they will sell for $1700", then these are more than likely the crooks you are dealing with.
It usually works like this: They will have some sort of cover story (we have an overstock, our building contract fell through, etc) and they will then try to "upgrade" you to one of their "$8000 spas that you can have for $4500". Then they will request a check or cash deposit. Delivery will always be at least 2 weeks away (this gives them time for your check to clear).
Then, one of three things will happen:
1. They will show up after dark with a junker spa (the old Bait and Switch). You will have to pay the balance and then be stuck with it.
2. You refuse delivery and they disappear with your deposit.
3. They never show up and you lose your deposit.
If you need further proof, go to the Dallas, Tx BBB website and type in "Hydro Spa" in the search function. If that still isn't proof enough not to do business with them, check some of the posts at www.rhtubs.com and other spa websites. If that still isn't enough proof, well, I wish you luck! :)
Terminator
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I'm curious if anyone can answer WHO really builds the following brands of spas:
Sunco
Sundaze
Sunseeker
HydroSpa
US-Spas
Gulf Coast
Leisure Bay
Superior
I think the first 4 are made in Daytona FL and are the brand marketed by that scamming Stacey Diego. They all look very similiar and are somewhat fuzzy in regards to their place of manufacture. Are these companies buying generic shells from someplace? Sure looks like it.
Terminator
I don't know the answer but I did talk to the factory about the spa I was considering and interestingly they are located in FLA (tampa) with CA (Sacramento) location.
Could this be the same one?
Signed, "still undecided but collecting information"
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Where in Northern NJ. I'm in NW NJ and bought my tub (HS Envoy) in Middletown, NY.
In Bergen County. The closest HS dealer is one twon over and Sundance dealer is just over NY State border, also within 10 miles
Before you purchased the HS Envoy, did you consider any other spas? I liked the Grandee and the Maxxum but now feel I should keep looking till I'm 100% comfortable and happy with the brand, warranty, service and reputation
I was sent a brochure from Thermo Spa with a CD that looks like it cost a bundle to produce.
Should they be on my short list of spas?
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...I was sent a brochure from Thermo Spa with a CD that looks like it cost a bundle to produce.
Should they be on my short list of spas?
Xqqqsme,
I'm not a spa proffesional, just an ower, but it seems to be the general feeling on this board and others, that Thermo spas are overpriced. Their sales tatics are very aggressive as well.
You cannot wet test a thermospa and just about everyone will tell you that wet testing is critical in making your decsion.
I have heard stories that thier "trade in" policy is meaningless.
I also wonder about all the features they want you to buy.
A tv? A radio? An ice bucket? A towel warmer?
Does anyone who gets out of a hot tub really want a hot towel? Not me. Ice buckets get filled with dirt and water. A tv? A radio? Not for me....
:)
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Xqqqsme,
I'm not a spa proffesional, just an ower, but it seems to be the general feeling on this board and others, that Thermo spas are overpriced. Their sales tatics are very aggressive as well.
You cannot wet test a thermospa and just about everyone will tell you that wet testing is critical in making your decsion.
I have heard stories that thier "trade in" policy is meaningless.
I also wonder about all the features they want you to buy.
A tv? A radio? An ice bucket? A towel warmer?
Does anyone who gets out of a hot tub really want a hot towel? Not me. Ice buckets get filled with dirt and water. A tv? A radio? Not for me....
:)
Thanks Drewster,
Did a bit of research right after I posted that and am in agreement.
Will still look and take the advise offered,
Wet Test, Wet Test, Wet Test!!!
Hoping to be a Spa Owner soon!
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Just to be fair though, people who have bought a thermo spa say they enjoy it. They just seem to wish they did a little bit more shopping around before doing so.
:)
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Just to be fair though, people who have bought a thermo spa say they enjoy it. They just seem to wish they did a little bit more shopping around before doing so.
:)
What is the reason behind the purchaser's remorse? Better values out there? Better Spa's? Or just not what was represented in the brochures?
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What is the reason behind the purchaser's remorse? Better values out there? Better Spa's? Or just not what was represented in the brochures?
From the accounts I read, A potential hot tub consumer see's the ads on TV and figures it can't hurt to call and get more info. This results in a high pressure salesman comming to thier house and really pulling out all the stops to sell the tub then and there without comparison shopping.
They end up paying thousands more for a tub and after the euphoria of the purchase, wonder if they could have gotten a better tub for a lot less money from a local dealer. They realize any of the bells and whistles are over priced and not really something they needed.
Other reports say when they go to "trade in" the tub, Thermo spa "pro rates" the tub and signigicanlty undervalues it.
A nationaly known window replacement company used to do the same thing.
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From the accounts I read, A potential hot tub consumer see's the ads on TV and figures it can't hurt to call and get more info. This results in a high pressure salesman comming to thier house and really pulling out all the stops to sell the tub then and there without comparison shopping.
They end up paying thousands more for a tub and after the euphoria of the purchase, wonder if they could have gotten a better tub for a lot less money from a local dealer. They realize any of the bells and whistles are over priced and not really something they needed.
Other reports say when they go to "trade in" the tub, Thermo spa "pro rates" the tub and signigicanlty undervalues it.
A nationaly known window replacement company used to do the same thing.
Interesting!
Glad I checked here before making a move.
What are the other Spa website's to check as I continue to research.
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What is the reason behind the purchaser's remorse? Better values out there? Better Spa's? Or just not what was represented in the brochures?
From the feedback I've seen over the years, Thermospas are very expensive with marginal quality and poor customer service (not to mention pushy sales tactics). I scratch my head relative to them the most. When people buy spas from Gulf Coast, Hydro Spa, US Spas etc. I at least understand why they buy them; while I don't think they're a good value, they appeal to what matters most to some, they are cheap (in most every way). But with Thermospa, you're paying big bucks as they use the old "if we charge a pretty penny people will believe it must be a top of the line product".
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Interesting!
Glad I checked here before making a move.
What are the other Spa website's to check as I continue to research.
WE are forbidden to mention one website you should not go to, but check out the "Beating the dead horse section"
for a dealer that should NOT be on your list.
overall, many of the dealers here, seem to be pretty balanced, well versed and very willing to help. As a consumer I enjoy their posts. I am sure they will be more than happy to tell why you should consider thier spas in your deicions and what to look for and avoid.
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I may be off base here as I'm new to all this and my hot tub is still about a month away, so I can't say as I have any actual experience, just some bits and pieces of knowledge that I've picked up on from reading these forums. From looking at the picture of the tub does any one else feel that a disproportionate amount of the jets are small jets. Looking at one of there other tubs on the web page (101 jets) the ratio is even more out of whack. My impression from what I've read is that the larger jets tend to provide a better message, while the smaller ones may tend to sting a bit. I know that all manufacturers use different combinations of large and small jets, but all the other tubs I've looked at seem more balanced. By using smaller jets can they get away with using smaller/less pumps? I may be way off on my line of thought here, and if I am please let me know, but it just doesn't look right to me.
As a new buyer without a hot tub yet, it didn't occur to me that the jet arrangement may be off. But, maybe one of the dealers on the site can answer this.
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# of jets is a poor metric of a hot tub's quality and ability to give you therapy/relaxation/enjoyment/whatever. Many people say that small "pinpoint" jets hurt or irritate and are used to artifically inflate "jet count" for people looking for such a number.
Wet testing is the key here, as even reputable dealers and manufacturers will make tubs that just do not hit you right.
A few things to be careful about when first starting to look:
1. Don't buy off a whim.
2. Wet test any tub before you buy it (and do so more than once!) Bring a friend or two to see if adjacent seating is crowded. Bring a notepad. Stay in for at least 15 minutes to get a real feel for all jets. Don't be afraid to move around in a seat to try and find it's sweet spot.
3. If you get overwhelmed, buy from a reputable manufacturer. In my area, that is solidly sundance and hot springs. Caldera, Marquis, Coleman are others that get high marks here. I'm sure others can toss up their favorites.
4. Read the warranty! See what is and is not included. Make sure the company has a reputation of honoring the warranty. For example, the Marquis warranty is transferrable if you sell a tub. Watkins (makers of Hot Springs) has done some pretty big customer-service for people out of warranty. Cal Spas has a reputation of poor warranty servicing (though the Cal Spa dealer on here swears it is a dealer-to-dealer issue).
Know that "lifetime" (as a legal term in warranties) usually means between 5-7 years, depending on the state.
5. Ask about prices. $10k for a HS grandee sounds a little high. See if there is any wiggle room once the dealer knows you are both a serious and a comparison-shopping customer. I love my grandee, it's a quality tub that won't given you much headache from a reputable company.
6. Don't be fooled by # jets or by pump horse power. A powerful pump attached to too many jets can be just as bad as an underpowered pump (and more expensive to run).
Some good debates to search for on here (with my 2 cents added, of course):
1. Do you get a full-foamed hot tub or a thermal-pane hot tub. Short answer? Both can do OK, Both can be done poorly. It's probably harder to do TP "correctly".
2. Circulation pump or jet pump for filtration. Circ pumps inject ozone 24/7. Jet pumps move more water (but only when running a filter cycle).
3. Ozonator or not? Ozone may reduce the amount of chemicals you need and ease maintenance of the tub. Get a CD not a UV, and make sure the CD doesn't need a charge after 9000 hours. Make sure the tub has a sufficiently sized ozone mixing chamber.
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Excellent Ebiranne!
Course you need to say "wet test" 3 times to sound like a pro (kinda like the realaltors Location! location! location!)
;D
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Thanks!
When we wet tested we went back to the HS dealer at least 3 times. The poor guy was probably wondering if we wanted to buy a tub or keep using his! But he was always accomodating and always fresh and that helped us gain confidence in our dealer. His attitude was "take your time, it's a big purchase".
That is opposed to our local Sundance dealer who, after the 2nd wet test was clearly annoyed and only half-jokingly mentioned charging us for chemicals. His attitude was "if you are too dumb to buy the tub after the first wet test, I can't help you".
In addition to wet testing alot and with a few other people, you learn a little bit about your dealer!
-Ed