Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Duffman on August 14, 2005, 10:02:19 pm
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Like many shoppers out there I have been very frustrated with the lack of independent studies/facts regarding different hot tub brands. Every dealer and manufacturer rep seems to think their brand is the best in one or more ways. My experiences with dealers are mixed; some are as irritating as used car salesmen, and others are great with low pressure sales tactics and none of the contstant spouting of negative information on their competition.
For those of you who have had similar experiences I wrote this to simply offer my personal opinions on common spa features.
I have been shopping for a 7-8’ spa in the $7500-$9000 range. The key features I am looking for include:
1) Seat at least 5-6 people
2) At least 2-3 foot jets. Personally I greatly prefer the larger diameter jets on the floor rather then the small, tighter jets, as these are a bit ticklish and uncomfortable to me.
3) Open layout with decent leg room (I don’t like playing footsie with everyone else)
4) Strong water pressure for all seats. I don’t like robbing the jet pressure on other seats to get a decent massage in my own. Since I have back problems I want the option of a more intense spa massage.
5) Easy and fast to drain
Listed below are features that over the years, my family and I agree are less desirable in a hot tub. If you disagree and are happy with these features then that is great. I would just recommend that everyone wet test before buying to make sure.
1) Heavily sculpted seating design. As a gymnast I used to be in great shape, but having gained a little weight over the years (wink, wink) I observed that some sculpted seats were less comfortable. I’ve never been in a sculpted seat that was a tight fit, but for me they consistently feel a bit constrictive and less comfortable. Also, I think a less sculpted, open layout feels much more social when 3 or more people are using the tub.
2) Lounger seats. I know I’m not the only person here who feels this way, but I have yet to use a lounger in a spa that felt comfortable. For most spas they also take up a large amount of real estate in the spa. On the rare occasion where I didn’t have to struggle against floating off the seat, I have noticed that placement of leg and foot jets on loungers are hit and miss for people of different height. If you do like loungers then you really should wet test the jet placements before making a decision.
3) Good, balanced power levels for all seats. Why buy a spa that seats 6 people if there is only enough power to give people in half of the seats a decent massage. For all of my wet tests, one item on my checklist is to set the spa at maximum power with all jets on full and balance the diverter valves settings. This will allow you to see what each seat will feel like in the event that you are sharing the spa with 5-6 other people. If you regularly have to turn down the pressure on other seats to get a better massage on your “captain’s chair”, I’ll wager that you might become very frustrated over the years. Most of the middle-upper range spas have two and even three motors to help in this area. Your wet test will give you the answer on whether to spend extra for additional power or more motors.
4) Small center area. Some spas seat 5-8 people but have very little area for your lower legs/feet. I love to hang out in the spa with my friends but being forced to play footsie all the time can be a bit weird. Of course if you are getting a small spa for 2-4 people then you probably don’t mind the extra level of intimacy.
With these feature sets in mind I have been wet testing a number of brands in hopes of finding the one for me. I have been updating my detailed wet test observations in a separate topic: "My Wet Test Observations"
http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1124071622
P.S. I'm sure there are some people wondering if I go nuts with my research on any large purchase. I can honestly say that as a matter of habit I definitely do a fair amount of research. However, the posts on this forum are a first for me. I've never done anything like this before. What started as sharing opinions on a few wet tests has become a short term hobby while I decide which spa to purchase.
Before my initial posts became a research project I would definitely not have wet tested so many spas. Until I received all the suggestions and review requests I had no idea there were so many dealers of different spa types in my area. As a matter of fact, I very nearly accepted an offer from the first dealer I went to. It was a heck of an offer on a great spa that remains one of my front runners. However I'm glad I had the discipline to walk away and start my wet tests. I learned a lot and was happy to write up my experiences for this forum.
For all you dealers out there, I can assure you that I am not wasting your time. I will absolutely be buying a new spa in the next 1-4 months. Also, I may very well have friends with me. A couple of them defintely want a new spa and they asked for my recommendations. Before I decided to post on this forum, this initial write up was for their benefit.
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Hey Duffman:
I had many of the same criteria you outline in my spa search . . . except the lounger. With a family of four and limited space we knew the maximum size was 7x7. We found that with one person in the lounger . . . foot space was no longer a problem. We also wanted a spa for hypotherapy and jet strenght, postion, type and general message experience were very important to us. I like a strong foot jet as well vs. many small jets.
We ended up with a Artesian Spas Diamond after much wet testing (Hot Springs, Calera, Cal, Coleman, Demensions 1). We tested various Artesian models and all were comfortable. Wet testing the jets was a true selling point for us. My wife, especially wanted the leg jets offered by a lounger and really appreciated that feature. I'd recommend you add Artesian to your list.
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Sounds like you need to look at the Sundance Bahia....no kidding! You should!!
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Duffman,what have you looked at so far? What have you wet tested,if any?
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Duffman,
We have a lot in common with our spa search and what we ended up with. One minor disagreement would be with #4. Like you we got a 5-6 person spa, but most of the time it is 1-3 people in it. I have no problem setting diverters and jets to one seat robbing the others. That is what I do when I need that deep therapy, which is usually when I'm by myself or one other person. Most of the time when there are 5-6 people in our tub, it is more social and it is rare to have all pumps on high. To get the same maximum pressure in all seats that I can send to one would take some pretty big energy eating pumps.
Oh, I do like my lounger even if it is the least used seat. (But that debate is normal )
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Thanks for your feedback. Let me say that I respect your opinion and disagreement concerning motor power and diverting pressure. Furthermore, I agree that to get the maximum pressure possible it is required to shut off other valves (basic physics). From time to time I certainly don't mind making valve adjustments to get the most out of the captain's chair. However, my personal preference is to buy a a hot tub that has enough power for all the jets so I can get a good massage in any seat without regularly adjusting the valves.
I like spending time in the captain's chair for a higher intensity massage and then shifting to one or more other seats with different jet configurations. Because of this, not having to regularly adjust the valves is one of the most valuable features for me. I suspect that given the choice, most consumers out there would prefer less tweaking of settings when using their spa.
I agree with your statement that the majority of the time only 2-3 people will be using the spa. However, when I do have 5-7 people in the tub I want everyone to be able to get some decent pressure and enjoy themselves. Otherwise, what's the point of having an 8' tub? As for money, I know enough people with larger tubs in my area to know that they all seem to be spending about the same on energy bills, give or take $5/month. Personally, a $5 or even a $10 per month increase in energy cost is well worth what I consider an acceptable power level; especially on something that costs $8000 and up.
During my wet testing I discovered that in a number of tubs, I got a really good massage with all of the jets on max. Some just didn't perform nearly as well as others in this regard.
As a consumer I will make no judgement about one brand being better than another because there are too many factors to consider to make such a blanket statement. I just hope shoppers will accept the importance of wet testing many different brands before deciding. Then it all comes down to personal preferences and tradeoffs.
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If max power to each seat is a priority, check out the Artesian Platinum line. Each seat has its own pump and controls at the seat. The Piper Glen, which I have on order, is an open design, with a large foot well. However the tub is above the price range you gave. Mine is costing me $9999.00
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Thanks for the suggestion. After reviewing the Artesian website I must agree that the spas appear to be well designed and have most of the features I want. There's a dealer within 15 miles of my house so I'll wet test it this week and let you know what I think. If I really like the Artesian I might just have to increase my hot tub budget 8)
I just want to clarify that max power for each seat is not my top priority. I just noticed during wet testing that on some models I could only get a very mild massage when all the jets were on. It is that limitation that is unacceptable to me.
I'll happilly adjust the valves if I want a really intense massage, but for general use I want something strong enough to relax my muscles without robbing power from the other seats. From my wet tests I know there are plenty of brands out there that meet those needs.
Take care
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We picked our Sundance Optima because of all the foot jet options. There are small tickle foot jets for all seats (unless you turn the air up, then they kick butt) Also a center "fountain" jet that will hold up your legs when going full blast. Two of the seats also have back calf jets. We found that we can get satisfactory pressure from all seats, with the controls set in the middle position.
As far as foot room, it’s enough, but as Bill said, our 7 person tub fits 4 comfortably, two even better. It's 7.5' x 7.5'. If you try one and that's not enough, you may want to look for something larger than 7-8' tub sizes.
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Based on what you are looking for you might want to check out the Marquis "Epic" ....at first glance you may think it has a lounger, it does not....it is an Adirondack chair and does not sit like a lounge .....might be worth a look for you.....
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Duffman:
Have you looked at the Coleman line? One of the things that I was looking at when I decided to buy a tub..was diverter I don't want to rob one seat to get another seat...so I went with the Coleman hot tub..due to the fact it has seperate air jets for two different seatings..I'm thinking when I get ready to upgrade..it's going to be a 470 doesn't have a lounger (and yes..I've found I don't like the lounger as much!) Anyway that's my 2 cents
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Duffman,
There are a lot of choices out there as you can see and many proponents of each. Go visit them all, wet test and take your time. When you think you know what go to Moe's and have a few Duffs to think it over one last time.
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I purchased the arctic tundra signature tub and love it. I have had no problems with the seating like you stated in another post. The tundra fits well thin of bigger.
I love the tub, 33 jets and like WMCALL stated, it takes about 2 seconds to move the diverters for more or less pressure. You can get as 10 man or whatever, but at the end of the day usually 1 or 2 at a time in the tub, so that was not a concern for me.
The only thing that I wanted was a deep tub, I hate feeling cold. So my tub is nice and deep and fits me and the family like a glove.
I hope you find a tub that is right for you. Relax a bit on all the technical stuff. The brands you are looking at are all top notch and you are going to be getting great quality all around.
with the brands you are looking at, I think you should really be asking yourself, how much and what fits the best.
I dont care what anyone says, when you are comparing all these brands, quality is a given on all.
Good luck on your search.
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...I hope you find a tub that is right for you. Relax a bit on all the technical stuff. The brands you are looking at are all top notch and you are going to be getting great quality all around.
with the brands you are looking at, I think you should really be asking yourself, how much and what fits the best.
I don't care what anyone says, when you are comparing all these brands, quality is a given on all.
Good luck on your search.
I have to agree with bosco, any of the brands that are well regarded on this forum would be a good choice, and the final decision may come down to the best dealer rather then the best tub. To be honest I didn't do much comparison. Looked at HS/Calderas and dry tested a few. I was seriously considering the Niagara but decided to check out the Artesians. Did a wet test on the Artesian Piper Glen and I was sold, on both the tub and the dealer. The guy at the HS/Caldera dealership seemed like a nice enough guy, but the girl at the Artesian dealer was allot cuter ;) I'll admit it I HATE shopping, when I find something I like I'm done. I do appreciate those who do there reaserch though, makes for interesting and informative reading on the forum. Good luck in your search.
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Duffman,
While your looking at the artesian line the gold series uses 1 pump for every 2 seats I believe this line will be more in your original price range the opal starts around $7700.00 around here and I believe the emerald was around $800.00 more this was not even asking their best deal never know might be had for a little less
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Regarding the recommendations on the Artesian spas...
I called the local Artesian dealer who also sells Caldera. Unfortunately for me the owner said he doesn't put the top end Artesians on his floor any more since they compete with the Caldera line, which apparently is his main sales focus. He currently stocks the Island level Artesians. I suppose can't fault a dealer for stocking models with the best profit margin.
Bad luck for me. :-/
P.S. I just found out that there is an Artesian factory outlet in Baltimore, MD. It's about an hour and a half away but is the only other option.
Also, I found a Marquis dealer about 10 miles away and will try them out this week. I'll update my wet test observations after I'm done.
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I would think you can still get the upper series from your local dealer ...probably not able to wet test but if they have a comparable mold in the island series wet that might help . I think it is great to wet test and offer it to all who come in our doors. But I am sure the other dealers here can tell you very few do so .....
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Is he willing to order a higher end platinum/gold series Artesian for you. If so you could alway go and look at the tubs at the factory outlet, and if you like what you see order from the local dealer. Normally I wouldn't suggest looking in one dealership and buying in another, but then I guess I don't see factory outlets as really being full service dealers. Then again I'm certain you can find another brand, maybe even Caldera that you would be just as happy with, and without the hassle. One of the primary reasons I went with the Artesian is my dealer is only about 10 miles away.
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My local Artesian dealer is only about ten miles away and will certainly order whatever I want. He just isn't ordering any to put in his showroom
I'll test the lower level models he has in stock but will probably check out the factory outlet the next time I'm visiting my brother in Baltimore. If I'm even going to consider spending the money for a platinum model I have to try it out.
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I'll test the lower level models he has in stock but will probably check out the factory outlet the next time I'm visiting my brother in Baltimore. If I'm even going to consider spending the money for a platinum model I have to try it out.
Certainly a good idea ....
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Duffman...We wanted to see the Artesians but the closest dealership was 100 miles away and when we went on a Saturday, he was closed.
We narrowed it down between a Jacuzzi 385 and the Marquis Epic. We chose the Epic because both my husband and I felt it had better therapy. I have severe neck and back problems and we liked the larger jets--you can sit in front of them for longer periods of time without getting "needled". Another thing we liked about the Epic is it has several seat configurations. Some very deep and others higher. The aidirondack seat is somewhat like a lounger but different and has great therapy.
Epic has a excellent warranty and it's even transferable.
Just IMO...but I'd look at the Marquis line. We bought ours fully decked out for $7900 plus tax.
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Regarding the recommendations on the Artesian spas...
I called the local Artesian dealer who also sells Caldera. Unfortunately for me the owner said he doesn't put the top end Artesians on his floor any more since they compete with the Caldera line, which apparently is his main sales focus. He currently stocks the Island level Artesians. I suppose can't fault a dealer for stocking models with the best profit margin.
Bad luck for me. :-/
P.S. I just found out that there is an Artesian factory outlet in Baltimore, MD. It's about an hour and a half away but is the only other option.
Also, I found a Marquis dealer about 10 miles away and will try them out this week. I'll update my wet test observations after I'm done.
Duffman,
My local artesian dealer also carries the caldera line and like your dealer he has a couple of the island and platinum in stock but has the full line of caldera in his showroom from what I understand the gold and platinum line has larger jet's and he suggested the artesian line to my wife and I due to our height said the caldera would be to deep don't know haven't wet tested yet since the model we liked isn't in stock as of yet.
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Duffman,
Do you have a Master Spa dealer in your area? I looked at a LS800 model and was impressed with the seat variations and power. They also have 2 of what they call "Master Blaster" jets for your feet on its own pump with 15 outlets on each one. It was moving some serious water. I will wet test this one soon. Also will be looking at the Marquis Epic this Thursday.
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Duffman,
It sounds to me like you have a fairly well thought out list of features. As you wet test, you will discover that some of your criteria are somewhat in conflict with others, but that is the way of it. In addition to those brands mentioned by others, I suggest that you add Marquis to your shopping list, as I think they have a model that might be what you are looking for.
Happy hunting and let us know how it goes.
Regards,
Bill
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Wet Testing Update: I wasn't able to wet test an Artesian gold or platinum spa but I was able to try out the Artesian Island Grand Cayman model. I had three major issues with this spa.
1) The power level of the two motors was unsatisfactory to me. If I had 5-6 people in the spa and balanced the diverter valve settings, only the person in one of the corner chairs would get decent pressure. The pressure was fairly mild everywhere else and the large diameter foot jet was almost worthless.
2) The diverter valve design was very disappointing because the pump that drives the foot jets also powers three of the four corner seats and at least one of the side seats. As a result, if you want decent pressure in 3/4 of the tub you practically have to turn the foot jets off. If you want foot jets then 3/4 of the tub's seats must be turned way down. The kicker is that if you do want to divert power to the foot jets and use the captain's chair under power from the separate motor, you better be at least 6' tall. The large foot jet is just too far away for most people to use.
3) For the two corner seats with neck jets in two of the corner chairs your shoulders are positioned underneath the spa shell. The hard shell was actually molded so that it wraps over your shoulders. Even with the padded headrest, my shoulders bumped/rubbed against the overhang of the shell.
My next visit is to the local Marquis Dealer. From the positive feedback I have read I look forward to trying their spas.
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Duff,
That's why you wet test. I'm sure the spa looked great dry and maybe even seemed to fit well dry. Keep wet testing till you find the best fit for you.
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Wet Testing Update: I wasn't able to wet test an Artesian gold or platinum spa but I was able to try out the Artesian Island Grand Cayman model. I had three major issues with this spa.
1) The power level of the two motors was unsatisfactory to me. If I had 5-6 people in the spa and balanced the diverter valve settings, only the person in one of the corner chairs would get decent pressure. The pressure was fairly mild everywhere else and the large diameter foot jet was almost worthless.
2) The diverter valve design was very disappointing because the pump that drives the foot jets also powers three of the four corner seats and at least one of the side seats. As a result, if you want decent pressure in 3/4 of the tub you practically have to turn the foot jets off. If you want foot jets then 3/4 of the tub's seats must be turned way down. The kicker is that if you do want to divert power to the foot jets and use the captain's chair under power from the separate motor, you better be at least 6' tall. The large foot jet is just too far away for most people to use.
3) For the two corner seats with neck jets in two of the corner chairs your shoulders are positioned underneath the spa shell. The hard shell was actually molded so that it wraps over your shoulders. Even with the padded headrest, my shoulders bumped/rubbed against the overhang of the shell.
My next visit is to the local Marquis Dealer. From the positive feedback I have read I look forward to trying their spas.
If you look at the Artesian Island series, you need to look at their 3 pump versions. Most of the Island series comes in a 3 pump model. I agree that the 2 pump models have to power a lot of jets - the three pump Cayman has a pump strictly for the foot jets and the seat between the deeper captain's seat and the shallower quasi-lounger. The 3 pump Cayman has amazing power, so much so that I have to alternate between air on and air off so that I get a gentle message and sit at the jet longer!
I also agree that it seems the whirlpool jet is useless, but I equate it to any big jet stuck in the middle of a tub and a lot of manufactures do it. I don't use it at all but I do need to play around with it to see if it does provide any whirlpool effect. The neck jet seats are a different story - yes they lock you into the seat - gets you closer to the jets without floating away and then you can scoot yourself forward and get a neck message on top of your neck/shoulders. When I'm working on my neck, I float between the seat in between the captain chairs and the deeper captain's chair - it really works nice!
At 6', my torso is long so for me the captain's seat doesn't work the way it is supposed to but I could see that if I was a few inches shorter it would work out nice. But given my experience with the captain's seats, for my next tub if I could find a tub with great neck message without the molded neck, I probably would buy one.
Everyones expectations are different and everyone wants something different in a tub, that's why you need to find YOUR tub!
Good Luck!
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Hi Vinny,
Perhaps I could have made it more clear that I was trying the 2 pump version. Unfortuntately, the dealer did not even mention a 3-pump option.
Given your feedback I am sure I would have been much happier with the power level if I did try the three pump version. I'll update my wet test observations post accordingly.
Thanks :)
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Can I ask something here? Why isn't it that I hear except from me and spahappy that the Coleman tub is a good high end tub too...I mean I was looking at a couple that I would...If I had the money......love to buy!!!
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Can I ask something here? Why isn't it that I hear except from me and spahappy that the Coleman tub is a good high end tub too...I mean I was looking at a couple that I would...If I had the money......love to buy!!!
My issue was the dealer - Coleman was/is a nice tub! I looked at the 480 (no lounger) and thought it was very nice AND affordable.
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Absolutely. I looked at the Coleman too and really liked it but couldn't get the saleperson away from his pool game. I was the only customer in the store so I wasn't impressed with the dealer at all.
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Hi Vlady,
While wet testing the Marquis Epic today I noticed that the dealer also had Colemans in stock.
Coleman Spas don't have all of the bells and whistles as some other brands but they certainly seem to have a more favorable price range. After inspecting the tub, warranty, and then wet testing a couple models, I concluded Coleman makes an all-around good quality spa.
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As a former Coleman salesman I will have to agree that it is a solid product. I have sold a few brands and I dont feel that way about all of them.
From a dealers perspective, I found Coleman to be a great compnay to work with too.
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I guess I'm the lucky one here then huh.....my dealer has been the most personable, considerate guy..he listened to my needs in a tub..what features I wanted and what I thought was a don't really need and we came to the 461 deluxe..I can't say enough about it either!
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We have a good Coleman dealer in my area. I have lots of friends with Coleman spas, including three neighbors and a cousin. All of these spas are older than mine.
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Absolutely. I looked at the Coleman too and really liked it but couldn't get the saleperson away from his pool game. I was the only customer in the store so I wasn't impressed with the dealer at all.
sounds like 1 REEEALY expensive game of pool.....
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Yes it was. I have since heard that they are going out of business. I guess you have to have your priorities straight.
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After receiving a request to review a Master Spa I found a local dealer and was able to wet test the LSX model. I and was literally blown away by a couple of its features. Unfortunately, $10,500 is a bit out of my price range.
If I could pick any spa from those I have tried, the LSX, or more likely the lounge-free LS2X model would probably be at the top of my list. I just don't know if I could justify the price. I'll have to think very carefully about the cost/performance trade-offs. :-/