Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: leesweet on August 11, 2005, 03:18:54 pm
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I think I need a SD dealer that knows about how SD spas are fed. :) My dealer sent me off to call SD yesterday, and they've not called back yet. So, I thought I'd ask the experts here for confirmation.
Here's the scoop. While our Max is on order (more details later... I just realized reading another thread that I'd been remiss in telling the whole saga, my bad!), we've gotten the concrete and power in.
Well, the electrician put a 60A breaker in the panel, ran 6-3 cable to the disconnect box near where the spa will go, put the 60A GFCI there, and left about 10' of cable for connecting to the spa.
Here's the problem. The cable is this flat one-piece, about 1/2" by 1 1/2" stuff. I think the SD spas have a round entryway for the power cable, right? The SD pre-install manual says nothing that specifies exactly what shape the cable should be. :) And, this stuff can't be bent, if you wanted to.
So, I assume you can't feed this flat cable into the port on the side of the Max. What kind of cable do I tell the electrician to come back and put in?
And, in general, shouldn't the pre-install guide (which should tell you everything to get ready without a spa to look at, right?) say that the cable (in total) has to be round and/or less that 1" or whatever in size? All it really says, I believe, is THHN wire, which is 'heavy insulated for conduit', which we aren't even using (the conduit). Nothing about the entrance way to the inside of the spa. Perhaps they assume you are using conduit, and thus just the three 'little wires' have to make it inside? Okay, if so, but that's not stated that I can see, either, except from the comment on the THHN wire requirement.
So, perhaps we have to use, what, leak-tite conduit in order to have separate wires inside for the last part from the disconnect to the spa? Not a problem if that's the answer!
Thanks! (Last thing I want is for the dealer to show up and for the power not to fit!)
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The electrical access hole is really just a hole with a chinese finger trap type piece of plastic in it. Your wire should fit in there just fine. If you have any doubts, you can go to the dealer and measure the opening. Or, if it is too small, the electricina can just use a hole saw and make a bigger one.
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Hm, it's that large and easy? I was under the impression it had a metal entrance or something.
The dealer took a look while I was on the phone and thought it was about an inch wide, but didn't say she thought it was easily enlargable. If so, not a problem... (I'd caulk it up later to keep bugs and other things out, of course...)
If it's that needed, I'm worried about nothing, as usual! ;D Thanks much!
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You should be able to fit the flat cable thru the gromet, but the question is more what you should do vs what you can do.
I doubt it's allowable to run that romex from your disconnect to your spa without it being inside some type of conduit. My installation (Optima- same as your MAX) has 3/4" schedule 80 PVC running from the disconnect to a few feet from the spa, then I transition to 3/4" flexible, watertight conduit from there, thru the gromet in the spa side, and all the way to the knockout on the electrical box inside the service panel of the spa.
Except I didn't use romex cable (wasn't allowed by my authority) but individual 6 gauge copper THHN/THWN wires inside the conduit.
You might want to check with your local electrician,
to see what's required by code, and pop onto Sundance's website and take a peek at the proper owners manual for your spa to get some ideas.
Brewman
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Er, I've read the SD Pre-install and the 'real' SD 880 Manual... do you mean 'ideas' for this or in general about placement and other factors? There isn't much about the hookup, which is why I started this thread in the first place.
As for the leaving the 'cable' by itself from the disconnect, I specifically asked him that, and he said it was code and fine. I didn't think so and haven't a clue. I expected at least leaktite flex conduit if not something more rigid.
Brewman, I don't understand your comment 'ask your local electrician what's allowed by code'. He is the one that installed this last Monday, I didn't do this myself. :) He sure knows it's for a hot tub, and he said it was all code. I even gave him the pages from the SD Pre-install guide, even though all that says is 'two hot, no neutral, #6'.
Now, note that this cable is on the side of the spa that will be next to a deck, and the cable is to be about five feet on the ground across concrete and mulch where people will not be walking (because it's under a second story deck). It's placed there on purpose. I don't know if that entered into his answer or not. I don't know if the 'strength' of the cable enters into it or not. This stuff is really tough plastic coated cable, and it took him about five minutes to strip it at the breaker box end in order to connect it there. So, all in all, I'm a bit confused.
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And I'm probably just confusing you more. I'll try and elaborate.
Hopefully your electrician is licensed, obtained the correct permits, and is familiar with the rules in your area. Whatever authority that serves you can let you know if they allow the type of connection that your electrician is proposing. If they do, and if that's the rule in your area, then the romex cable you have will certainly fit thru the gromet on your spa.
Also, getting any required inspections done by your city or whoever does them, will give you an unbiased opinion that your wiring meets (or doesn't meet) code.
Personally, I wouldn't want a bare cable like that, but it's a moot point for me since I am bound by the electrical authority in my area, which won't even allow romex to be used to feed from a disconnect to a spa. I had to use individual unsheathed wires, which cannot be unprotected- they must be in a conduit of some sort.
The electrical inspector in your area has final say on what works and what does not. If they say OK, then I'd be satisfied. The only other recourse you have is to trust your electrician knows what they are doing.
Brewman
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Yeah, I think we both agree. :) He lives in the county and even the development, and does a lot of work here, so I think he knows the local codes. I need to take a look at the cable, and call the inspector, to be sure, though. Like you, I'm suspicious of that cable, although it is very tough stuff. (It's a lot tougher than plain romex.)
I may have him replace it with leaktite-sort of stuff anyway. Thanks for the comments!
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I'm also getting the cement and electrical ready for my Maxxus. My question is, can the electrical be brought in under the spa, not through its side? This seems it would be a cleaner look then through the side.
Thanks in advance for any help
Karl
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Should be able to do that. You just need to know the footprint of the spa and exactly where you intend to place it.
Brewman
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if ???????you are allowed to use romex in your area you need a romex connector to enter the controll box. i would not worry about it . you have an electrician ,let him finish the job.me personnally. i would use sealtight.so it is water proof. keep in mind you can only use 6 feet per the code.
good luck
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Lee, I would be a little bit careful on what your electrician is "willing" to do for you. Now I'm not an electrician, but I do most of my own work and the code in our area just states that we follow the NEC (Nat. Elect. Code). I had purchased 6/3 cable to wire my spa (which I thought would be OK )and was ready to just do the job when I decided just to see how much an electrician wanted to do it for me (I'm getting lazy I guess ;-) ) Anyway, he came in and gave me a price to run the cable I had bought (and showed him) and we talked a bit about the install etc. Being a little frugal, I decided I would do the job myself and gave a quick call to the county insepctor's office to discuss my interpretation of the NEC and to make sure I wouldn't have any code issues. Turns out they wouldn't allow the cable to be used, because you're not allowed to run romex type cable in conduit, it has to be single conductor. My only point is that the electrician was more than willing to wire the job using the cable which would have caused me a probelm when the inspector showed up. It may have been a difference of interpretation of the code, however when push comes to shove, the County inspecter is the one who had to approve the work and close the permit.
It sound like he used 6/3 UF cable which is fine for outdoor installation, but just my $.02 here : In your case, (if it was me) I would recommend using 3/4" liquidtite flex conduit into your spa. (But as sparky stated before, no more than 6 ft per the NEC). IMHO, it provides for a more finished looking connection as well as better durability and protection from water entry.
Anyway, like I said before just my 2 cents.
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Thanks, folks! I'd gathered all that from the other comments hereabouts, but he "said" it was all code, and you assume he knows what he's talking about. :) Well, you never know.
Loudoun County, VA uses NEC, but I'm not sure which. I'll check which one, and check that and call the inspector's office and describe exactly what I have in place.
Thanks again!
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Lee... I'm in Loudoun Cty VA too!! (South Riding) Hey man good luck! I spoke to the chief inspector, a guy by the name of Joe Legard. The inspector told me that I had to run conduit all the way from the disconnect to the service panel as well as from the disconnect to the tub. I did some research and asking around and apparently this is a topic of some disagreement amoung the "community" It comes down to an interpretation of the NEC and how the county inspectors view it. (for example he asked me if there was a light in the tub. I said sure, but the tub is a packaged unit. I think he is looking at from the point of view of seperate light in a pool) I was a little miffed because it was a bit of a hassle, but in the end I just caved in and did it the way they said they wanted to see it. I'll let you know how the inspection goes! Post back and let me know what they tell you.
~M
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I got the same when I wired my spa. Whatever the local authority say, is what goes. The code is their guideline, but it's very open to interpretation.
Brewman
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it doesnt hurt to ask the inspector . the only fool proof way is to pipe it with pvc from the panel. use # 6 thhn 2 colors a white and a green. dont forget the disconnect at 5 to 10 feet from sidewall. 20 years with not one failure.
p.s. there is only one code, it all depends on the inspectors interpretation.again have a electricain finish the job the right way...life is too short to waste it on a few dollars
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I have a new maxxus coming in 2 to 3 weeks. The slab is ready 12 feet from my house at the end of a deck. Can the disconnect go on the house 12 feet away or do I need to put up a post or something for it?
-steve
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I placed my Maxxus on a concrete slab. I drilled through the slab and tunnelled under the concrete and underground to my disconnect (about 12'). Then I put a piece of 3/4 PVC up through the hole in the concrete and PVC piped all the way to the disconnect. When my dealer arrived with the tub I simply asked him to drill a 3/4" access hole in the bottom of the the edge of the tub for the PVC to come through. Then we simply set the tub and I routed the wire to the connect lugs. The wire does not have to be enclosed inside any flex or anything if it is inside the tub. The national electrical code simply requires the wire to be protected at all times meaning if it’s inside the cabinet of the tub its fine! Doing it this way makes for a nice clean look without any exposed cable to the tub.
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mxw, thanks for the comments! We've seen that 'light' issue a lot here. [Edit: by 'here' I meant on this board, not in Loudoun County.. .:) ] I don't understand why they don't get it, it's not a separate fixture, as you say. I'll let you all know how it goes.
As for the disconnect, most places want it "5' or more from the water, and in sight of users of the hot tub". So, I'd say 12' is fine, as long as you can *see* it from inside.
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Ok, it is in line of sight so I guess 12' away on the house is OK. I assume the cable from the disconnect should be in some kind of tube. Under the deck should I run it along a joist or lay it on the ground or do I have to bury it? I'll have an electrician there, but I'd like to understand what needs to be done.
thanks,
steve
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On my previous spa, in the deck, the wiring came out of the basement at ceiling-height, ran along the joists to the spa and then down to it and in. And, yes, that one was in conduit and liquid-tite or whatever the brandname is for the flexible conduit. :)
BTW, I've got a call in to the Loudoun building development folks to see exactly *what* should be the cabling to a 'portable, totally self-contained, except for electricity spa' and can't wait to see what they say....
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Ok, it is in line of sight so I guess 12' away on the house is OK. I assume the cable from the disconnect should be in some kind of tube. Under the deck should I run it along a joist or lay it on the ground or do I have to bury it? I'll have an electrician there, but I'd like to understand what needs to be done.
thanks,
steve
The disconnect can be between 5' and 50' from the spa, as long as it's in line of sight. The wiring from the disconnect from the spa must be protected somehow. If you have to use individual wires like I did, then these must be in some type of conduit approved for the application. I used schedule 80 pvc, which is rated for usu when the wire inside it is subject to physical damage. Your inspector decides that. Otherwise you can use schedule 40, which is a bit cheaper but only allowed if you wire isn't subject to physical damage..
Underground feeded romex cable can be buried underground. Regular romex isn't rated for direct burial.
Any cable put into conduit is subject to potential de-rating which may dis-allow it's use.
If cable not in a conduit is allowed, I'd try to staple it to the side of a deck joist if possible, I wouldn't run it along the ground. If you bury, be sure to get cable rated for this- usually indicated as UF-underground feeder. Your trench will need to be inspected for depth prior to filling it back in.
Your local electric code enforcers should be able to tell you what setups are allowed or not in your area.
So should any qualified electricians doing spa installs in your area.
Brewman
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Awesome response Brewman. Thank you!
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More on my original issue (not that the other questions weren't interesting!)... I talked to Loudoun County, and the inspector (or someone in electrical plans, I assume equivalent), gave the same answer. If there's *any* sort of light in the hot tub (even if low voltage, LEDs, etc.), it have to be fed with conduit and insulated ground back to the breaker panel. :)
I called the electrician, and he said, first he'd heard of it, and he will call and check it out. (My installation is 6-3 UF-B cable, BTW.)
I understand conduit and all that is *better*, but I don't see how having a 'light' makes an 'insulated' ground necessary. Anyhoo, I like having conduit, anyway. The stronger and more protected, the better.
Addition: The electrician just called back and said that he's had several of these exact same installations inspected with no problems, so perhaps the local inspector isn't as picky as the plans people? Hm... The electrician will check the code book to see exactly what's required. I bet it's the whole 'what's a portable/non-portable/self-contained' hot tub and then there's the adding a light means do all this extra stuff...
And the saga continues....
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It all comes down to the person who inspects the work. What they say goes. The NEC as you are finding out, is very open to interpretation. Local authorities have final say over the book.
The NEC is so confusing that there are many books written just on how to read and interpret the code.
Brewman
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Yeah, I think (as we've discussed here) definitely some inspectors interpret the presence of a "light" as an auxiliary appliance or something that triggers the requirement for the insulated ground and conduit.
The electrician asked three people in his firm and that knew the NEC, and all said UF-B is sufficient. Whether you *want* that as all you have is another story. He said I could add liquid-tite over the tail from the disconnect to the spa for extra protection, but I'm worried then about overheating it and derating it. (I know insulated cable in conduit causes issues also...)
I've got a copy of the 'NEC quickie code book' (whatever it's called) at home, and will see tonight if it addresses this clearly at all). I would like the tail from the disconnect to the spa to have a little more protection than just the cable!
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It might not be too much to have the run from your disconnect be done in THHN/THWN wires. Those need to be in conduit. You could go pvc and transition over to sealtite for the last few feet. I think 6' is the length limit on the watertite flex (sealtite). That way you have no de-rating issues.
Fun stuff, EH?
Brewman
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In the end it doesn't matter what the code book, any number of electricians or inspectors say. The only thing that will matter is how the inspector on the job site interprets the situation.
The only way to be sure is to contact the inspector ahead of time. (even then he might change his mind).
The inspector on my spa said that he had failed several spas that week because the bond to the pumps (part of the internal spa wiring from the factory) was stranded instead of solid. But he passed me and commented that he would do further research because the manufactures might know something that he doesn't since they're probably not all wrong.
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'Probably not all wrong'. Sigh. I wonder how many inspectors are a bit out of date, like the 'spa has a light, needs xxxxx', which is ridiculous. I wonder how much spa electrical is overkill. Better safe than sorry, of course, which may be where a lot of the inspectors' prejudices come from. Ain't my hide if someone gets fried!
Brewman, someone once said (I think Robert Heinlein wrote it, but dunno if he stole it or not :) ) that a measure of a man's intelligence is how much he agrees with you. ;D ;D
I was thinking the same thing: Re-do it from the disconnect, since I didn't see anything wrong with the UF-B cable from the panel to the disconnect, either. I didn't want to de-rate the cable by putting it in a conduit, but replacing *that* short part with PVC and liquidtite with individual wires would be a good idea and not too costly.
Man, good thing it happened that we aren't getting the spa until we're back from vacation or this would be a nightmare! As is, we have time to play around with this stuff.
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Sounds like you are taking your time and thinking things out, which is a really good idea when playing with electricity.
In the end it'll all work out, and you'll be a local authority on spa wiring codes!
Brewman
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Yeah, but like anything else like this, when you do it once every 5-10 years, why bother... :)
I know, I'll quit my day job, and be an electrician, and do this stuff *right*! ;D ;D
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Lee.. Did the Loudoun Cty inspector ever get back to you?
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It's sort of buried of up there in the thread: we've got a difference of opinion between what the guy on the phone (Loudoun County electrical plans, I assume he knows as much as an inspector? who knows...) and the actual inspector that does our development, South Riding.
The Loudoun County guy asked me one question: does it have a light in it? Doesn't matter if it's LED, 120, whatever, then it needs conduit and insulated ground all the way back to the breaker panel. I assume the point is that you could break the light bulb, so you need a protected ground.
The actual inspector in the field that does our area says that the UF-B (insulated cable, Underground Feeder, what my guy used) is fine. My electrician has had this inspector clear three of his similar jobs in the last month or so, which is why he was so confident using UF-B cable as is on mine.
Now, as has been said many times in this thread and elsewhere, what's fine for inspection may not be exactly what you want to do. I'm thinking (taking Brewman's excellent advice :) ) of re-doing the tail from the disconnect box to the spa (since it's not even connected to anything except the GFCI yet) with a piece of PVC and liquid-tight, so if someone does walk on the tail, they're not wearing away the insulation on the cable against the concrete.
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I didn't realize you were in SR too!
I certainly agree with the PVC from the disconnect to the tub. Besides just looking more "finished" it provides prtection and piece of mind. UFB is tough, but it not beyond thought that the cable could get nicked somehow. The conduit and liquid tight flex to the tub is real easy to do. Hey, I bought way to much (I originally was going to use more of it before I read the code) You're welcome to some of it if you would like. I used 3/4".
~M
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Thanks, pal, but I'm going to have the electrician hook up the spa, and want him to stand behind the whole thing, so I think I better have him supply the parts! :) He's volunteered to re-do it the way I want.
What's weird (or perhaps not) is I got another call back from the first guy I left a message for (another Loudoun plans person), and he said the exact same thing: if it has a light, it needs conduit and insulated ground back to the panel. Good thing these guys aren't in the field!
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Lee. Where did you find a sundance dealer around here? I thought the local one had closed up shop, and the next closest was out in Winchester...
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Take a look at the SD site, and put in zip 20152. :) Ace Spas in Maryland now has the territory, and they are great. The Edgewater store (they have a nice place, and just opened a larger combined Ace Hardware/Spa store next door to the old one...) is the closest one to us. They have a lot of spas filled and ready to test, unlike some folks' descriptions of their dealer experiences.
http://www.acespas.com/Ace-spas.asp
Becky and Megan there are very helpful and knowledgeable, and the only extra I'm paying is a mileage charge for the miles over 25 over to here (which is 65 miles or so).