Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Elle on November 29, 2004, 04:22:09 pm
-
Less than a month into ownership and I believe I have THE RASH!!! I had a week with cloudy water in which I went in once. I knew I shouldn't have gone in. I didn't have any problems, but I didn't want to take anymore chances by going into the messed up water.
Fast forward a week and my water chemistry is beautiful. I went into the fresh clear water last night and woke up this morning looking like I was attacked by bugs in the night. I am a teacher and I really thought it was the start of chicken pox., which I've already had. There are random pox marks all over my body. I have a few on my arms, elbows, torso and legs. It is strange that they aren't really grouped together and aren't contained to where my suit would have been...although the ones on my butt are the majorly itchy ones. (TMI) The rest really do not bother me.
I'm just sick about this. I don't know if I should drain and refill the tub. Why would this happen after the water is in good shape?
Thanks for any and all advice.
Elle...who today has buyers remorse :(
-
Go to your doc first. If this is 'hot tub rash,' then you'll want to treat it first, and clean out the tub.
I'll go see if I can find a file on dissinfecting the tub for you.
-
Procedure for Chemical Cleansing
Filters:[/i]
1. Cartridge Filters: Remove the filter cartridge(s) and either clean or replace. To clean cartridge(s), first use a filter cleaner as per label directions. After rinsing the filter cartridge(s), completely submerge the cartridge(s) in a 1/10 solution of sodium hypochlorite (liquid bleach) and water for two hours. Inspect and clean the filter housing. Set the filters aside for installation after the spa decontamination is complete.
* Warning: Contains sodium hypochlorite.
Causes substantial, but temporary eye injury.
Harmful if swallowed.
May irritate skin. Do not get in eyes or on clothing.
For prolonged use, wear gloves.
Note: Baqua users (Biquanide) drain and refill spa before adding any chlorine.
2. Raise the water level in the spa 1/2 inch above the high water mark, and remove pillow if possible.
3. Turn on the jets - all of them - let them run for one hour.
Superchlorination and Neutralization:[/i]
4. Add at least 100 ppm chlorine to the spa being sure not to allow the Dichlor to come into direct contact with spa surface before is dissolves.
* Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate - 56%
6.25 ounces per 250 gallons,
8.75 ounces per 350 gallons,
12.50 ounces per 500 gallons.
5. During Superchlorination, be sure to rotate any diverter valves or other systems to allow water flow through all jets and systems for at least 5-10 minutes in each position.
6. For the first 60 minutes, do not cover the spa with the spa cover.
7. Neutralize the chlorine in the water with 16 oz of Hydrogen Peroxide (3%). Test for chlorine: more Hydrogen Peroxide may be needed.
* Warning: Hydrogen Peroxide, 3% U.S.P.,
For external use, topically to the
skin and mucous membranes.
Keep out of eyes.
8. Circulate the spa water for 10 minutes, during the Chlorine neutralizing process.
9. Stop circulation by turning off all jets.
10. Drain and flush the spa.
11. Clean the spa surface with a surface cleaner approved for you type of spa shell surface. Rinse the spa thoroughly!
Water Replacement and Treatment:[/i]
12. Refill the spa with water, reinstall the filter, which has been sanitized (or replaced).
13. Follow the startup procedure for your particular spa. Balance water chemistry before use.
14. Clean underside of cover thoroughly.
-
Go to the doc first before you panic. Exeyma is very common and results in little itchy bumps on your trunk and extremitys. Caused by extreme temperature changes, stress and dry skin.
-
Go to the doc first before you panic. Exeyma is very common and results in little itchy bumps on your trunk and extremitys. Caused by extreme temperature changes, stress and dry skin.
Based on the photos I've seen, it isn't eczema. This looks like chicken pox...large pox, some with small pustuals. Some hurt, some itch, some do not bother me at all. I also have that fantom itch where there are no bumps. UGH!
I'm going to try to get into the dr tomorrow.
Question:
Should I be shocking with Dichlor if I use the bromine frog system? Right now I'm set up to use Spa Essentials Shock. It doesn't seem to boost my bromine levels up (although it did the first two times I used it). Would it be better to use dichlor? I know this subject has been beat to death, but I'm still confused.
Acording to my dealer I should just adjust the frog and forget it. He makes it sound so simple, but I've learned here that it is less than simple. And the rash across my body tells me I'm doing something wrong.
Elle
-
Whew, Chas gave you a lot. You asked about bromine and the "spa frog." Here's my take.
First, don't despair! We all went through this and some of us (including me) have gone through it multiple times.
To start with, MOST skin irritation is caused by sanitation issues. Consider increasing sanitation slightly, even if you have an "ideal" reading. Remember that you also need to shock regularly, even if the water "looks" clear and "tests" perfect, to "burn off" or "oxidide out" the chloramines or bromamines in the water (even at low levels). As sanitizers "neutralize" stuff like sweat, oils, lotions, make-up, etc., they attach to organic molecules produced by the sanitizing process. The byproducts are chloramines or bromamines that need to be removed from the water because they are very irritating to the nose, skin and eyes and can cause some of the problems you mentioned. Shocking "oxidizes" these organic compounds out, creating Nitrogen gas and ultimately breaking them down completely. This is why you should leave the cover off with the spa running for at least 20 minutes after you shock.
SOMETIMES, tub dealers can underemphasize the use of sanitation and shock because they don't want to scare customers off by telling them about complicated chemical treatment plans. Some also recommend "all in one" treatments that may not work well in all cases (in any case, they STILL need to be supplemented).
You should also consider that you may be HYPERSENSITIVE to the sanitizer you are currently using and even if you're doing everything RIGHT, you still might get the rash. Usually, it takes about a month for this to show up, coincidently the time frame you are reporting.
What to do? For new owners, I suggest the following. First, see your doctor about the rash. Get treatment. Take the bottle of sanitizer and shock you are currently using to the doctor and ask his/her opinion about skin irritation. You can also be tested for this. Does anyone else have symptoms besides you?
Next, easiest way to beat it, drain and clean the spa. Start with clean water, use a start-up chemical sequence (mineral reducing, etc.). Get the chemistry, especially the pH, adjusted correctly. Total Alkalinity (TA) should also be in line. I'm also a fan of appropriate Calcium (hardness) levels.
ONLY after you have the chemistry correct, work on sanitation. Straight up, I think dichlor and MPS are best for sanitation purposes. I combine these with a Nature2 cartridge for excellent results. I use dichlor and MPS because they are pH neutral and mostly "forgiving." Levels can be kept lower with Nature2 (note "lower," NOT "absent") and have a tendency to reach "equilibrium" faster.
Most new tub owners don't understand the concept of "equilibrium." The best analogy I can think of at the moment is the difference between a Thanksgiving meal and everyday lunch. Sometimes you need more, sometimes less. If it's just a few people using the tub daily, less sanitation is needed. One weekend you have a party and a bunch of people get in. The next morning the tub looks clear and the test strip still shows OK. Two nights later, you start to itch. Why? Because you busted the chemical equilibrium of the tub and your skin reacted to it before you could see a problem.
ANTICIPATING problems is the key. Adjust sanitation BEFORE the need arises. My usual routine using Nature2 is a shot glass of dichlor on Monday, Thursday and Sunday, with a double shot glass of MPS on Saturday morning to shock. I also clean filters on Saturday morning and if I'm having a tub social that night I pre-sanitize with a double shot glass of dichlor at the same time. I also check pH each Saturday along with using a clarifying agent to "clean" the water if needed. Realize that I have a 500 gallon tub that gets heavy use. Your tub might not need as much.
There is NO one "simple" solution for every person's hot tub ALL of the time. Trust me when I say that you will eventually learn what works well for you. DON'T give up!
Post questions if you have them...
Good luck!
Drewski
8)
-
My usual routine using Nature2 is a shot glass of dichlor on Monday, Thursday and Sunday, with a double shot glass of MPS on Saturday morning to shock.
Last time I used a shot glass in the tub it took me 30 minutes of trying to get out....... ;D
-
I told you about that Tequila WSD... You're going to start looking like that dog in the picture. ;D
Elle, I find the cheapest source for Nature2 is eBay at about $16.25 USD a cartridge (including shipping). A seller called "thepoolman" is probably the best source. Click here (http://stores.ebay.com/thepoolman_W0QQsspagenameZl2QQtZkm) for his store. Click here (http://search.ebay.com/nature_Chemicals-Water-Treatments_W0QQbsZSearchQQcatrefZC6QQfromZR2QQgotopageZQQlopgZQQsacategoryZ20729QQsapricehiZQQsapriceloZQQsbrftogZ1QQsocolumnlayoutZ3QQsocomparecolumnlayoutZ0QQsofocusZbsQQsorecordsperpageZ200QQsosortorderZ2QQsosortpropertyZ2QQsotrtypeZ1QQsotrvalueZ1) for a Nature2 eBay search.
Hope this helps...
Drewski
8)
-
I just got back from the doctor...diagnosis hot tub folliculitis. I even have an inflamed lymph node under my arm from the infection. Yippie Skippie. 10 days of anitbiotics before I can re-enter the tub. I just pray I don't ever have this happen again.
Elle
-
Over twenty years of tub ownership, and it's never happened to me. My son, my neice, and a family friend - yes - but never me. ;)
-
Elle, SORRY to hear about your predicament.
I'm thinking, however, that a one-time exposure probably did NOT cause this. Maybe longer term stuff but you just didn't know? Do other family members have the same problem if they spend as much time in the tub as you?
Please consider re-evaluating your sanitation regime more carefully.
Good luck!
Drewski
:-/
-
Elle, SORRY to hear about your predicament.
I'm thinking, however, that a one-time exposure probably did NOT cause this. Maybe longer term stuff but you just didn't know? Do other family members have the same problem if they spend as much time in the tub as you?
Please consider re-evaluating your sanitation regime more carefully.
Good luck!
Drewski
:-/
I'm thinking that I can connect this with not changing out my frog bromine cartridge early enough. When I shook the container I still heard plenty of bromine, but I guess what I heard wasn't bromine. I think I must have been out of bromine for almost a week when I finally entered the tub and contracted the rash. No one else in the family has it...thank GOD! But, being that I teach 5 year olds and am constantly exposed to all kinds of diseases, my resistance was probably down and my skin was ripe for the pick'n. Who knows? I chalk this up to just another strange thing that only happens to Elle. I will always be sure that I have a strong residual of bromine in my tub at all times.
Lesson learned!
Oh, and one last thing...how is it that so many tub owners claim to do very little to maintain a sanitary environment? I have a friend that claims to just use minerals and shock weekly. I know other friends that throw in some chemicals twice a week and rarely check levels. My brother, for instance, only treats his water once a week and does not use a floater. He's had his tub for over 15 years (not same tub) and he's never broken out from his water.
UGH!
Elle
-
I'm thinking, however, that a one-time exposure probably did NOT cause this. Maybe longer term stuff but you just didn't know? Do other family members have the same problem if they spend as much time in the tub as you?
Shoot! One more thing I meant to mention...my doctor told me that the smallest microscopic bacteria (in the right, rather wrong, conditions) can cause this reaction on skin. It does not take multiple exposures, as bacteria is a one shot criminal.
Elle
-
Oh, and one last thing...how is it that so many tub owners claim to do very little to maintain a sanitary environment? I have a friend that claims to just use minerals and shock weekly. I know other friends that throw in some chemicals twice a week and rarely check levels. My brother, for instance, only treats his water once a week and does not use a floater. He's had his tub for over 15 years (not same tub) and he's never broken out from his water.
Easy. They use the same system I told you about in my earlier post, NOT bromine. Sound's like you should talk to your brother.
I hear your frustration...
Drewski
:-/
-
Elle,
It is as simple as not having had enough sanitizer in the spa. You have some issues with your spa that are uncommon but no matter what spa you would have purchased if you did not add enough sanitizer you would get the same results! I still commend your dealer for how they have taken care of you but wonder if they gave you proper instruction in the beginning.
You need to do a "Chemical Clean" in your spa ASAP and insure that you kill all of the bacteria. How I do this is; take out the frog cartridge's, add 4 oz of chlorine, leave the lid open and run the spa for at least 2 hours, let the spa set overnight, add 2 bottles of H2O2 (over the counter Peroxide), clean filters, drain spa, wipe down cover with solution of water and Clorox (3 to 1), refill spa, add 1-2 oz of granular bromine, follow start up procedure for frog and go back to enjoying the spa.
Keep track of you sanitizer and you should be OK, I fear many people sell the Frog system as a "you don't need to do anything!" system and that's not true. You still have to make sure sanitizer is being introduced correctly and water balance is maintained…
-
I'm thinking that I can connect this with not changing out my frog bromine cartridge early enough. When I shook the container I still heard plenty of bromine, but I guess what I heard wasn't bromine. I think I must have been out of bromine for almost a week when I finally entered the tub and contracted the rash.
So sorry to hear about your rash issues Elle.
One "issue" i've found with the Frog system is that you need to closely monitor the bromine you have. Shaking the container won't help too much as there will always be some left-over stuff in it. I've found that the Frog bromine lasts 3 to 4 weeks (that all depends on usage and bromine level wanted).
When you notice your bromine level in the tub going down it's a good sign it needs replacing. I got tired off throwing out Frog Bromine catridges and now refill them with bromine tabs. Works like a charm! It's easier to know when it needs replacing, it costs about 1/5 the price, there is no "toxic cartridge disposal" and water is great!
-
When you notice your bromine level in the tub going down it's a good sign it needs replacing. I got tired off throwing out Frog Bromine catridges and now refill them with bromine tabs. Works like a charm! It's easier to know when it needs replacing, it costs about 1/5 the price, there is no "toxic cartridge disposal" and water is great!
Perhaps you should just go to a standard floater and a regular N2 cartridge? Might work as well or better, and save you even more.
(http://www.poolandspa.com/catalog/images/brominedeluxe_floaterwhiteedit.jpg)
-
Chas! I had did a triple take on this one. Are you actually recommending someone use tablets and a floater?
HTM
-
Chas! I had did a triple take on this one. Are you actually recommending someone use tablets and a floater?
HTM
Thank-you for that question -
I generally do not recommed the use of a floater. They have problems which can very easily not be covered by the warranty on most tubs. Especially if you use Tri-chlor tabs. Those WILL do damage to your tub, but you may not see it for many years.
No - in this one very special case they were using the frog, which is a bromine floater system combined with mineral purifier similar to a N2 cartridge. I figured if they were already using it, and they mentioned that they were refilling it, I figured this would do the same, but with greater control and may save them a few bucks.
Great question, btw - you can't use N2 with Bromine, so you would want to buy the regular 'spa frog' cart in this instance.
-
No - in this one very special case they were using the frog, which is a bromine floater system combined with mineral purifier similar to a N2 cartridge. I figured if they were already using it, and they mentioned that they were refilling it, I figured this would do the same, but with greater control and may save them a few bucks.
Chas, that would be a good recommended alternative for Frog floating system; what is being referred to in this case is the Inline Frog system - no floaters here :)
-
Chas, that would be a good recommended alternative for Frog floating system; what is being referred to in this case is the Inline Frog system - no floaters here :)
Bottom line is the frog works very well but many dealers don't understand it and sell it as a "You don't need to do anything system. Telling every customer that they will only replace the cartridge once a month without knowing their usage is wrong. 4 people in the spa several times a week will greatly shorten the lifespan. Starting your system correctly and knowing how to test is the key. I'm sure Chas and many other HS dealers remember the hassels when Nature II came out and people were missinformed how to use it. As this system becomes more common it will be a favorite of many...
-
Chas, that would be a good recommended alternative for Frog floating system; what is being referred to in this case is the Inline Frog system - no floaters here :)
Ah. K.
:-[
-
Bottom line is the frog works very well but many dealers don't understand it and sell it as a "You don't need to do anything system. Telling every customer that they will only replace the cartridge once a month without knowing their usage is wrong. 4 people in the spa several times a week will greatly shorten the lifespan. Starting your system correctly and knowing how to test is the key. I'm sure Chas and many other HS dealers remember the hassels when Nature II came out and people were missinformed how to use it. As this system becomes more common it will be a favorite of many...
And in my case, I guess my dealer knows less than most because he told us that the frog bromine should last about 2 weeks (five people using tub almost nightly)...and then he came out for a service call about start of the 3rd week and he checked the cartridge (gave it a shake) and said that we would probably be good for another week. Little did either one of us know that the bromine was gone and I'd be rash covered in little over a week.
My word of advice for anyone using the frog would be to error on the side of caution and ditch your cartridge after 3 weeks or sooner.
Elle
-
I got tired off throwing out Frog Bromine catridges and now refill them with bromine tabs. Works like a charm! It's easier to know when it needs replacing, it costs about 1/5 the price, there is no "toxic cartridge disposal" and water is great!
empolgation,
I have the frog system built in to my spa and I like the idea of refilling the bromine cartridge to save $. Can you be more specific about the bromine tabs I should get? Are there different kinds of bromine tablets or just one? EBay has 10 lbs of bromine tabs for sale here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Clear-Choice-Sanitizer-Bromine-Tablets-Chemical-10-LB_W0QQitemZ4396378381QQcategoryZ20729QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem), will that work? Can you do the same thing with the mineral cartridge? What would I be looking for?
Thanks,
Phil
-
You can certainly use a regular frog stick that sits in or on the filter with a regular floater for the bromine. I also think it may be a better and probably less expensive way than the total frog bromine system.
-
I have been filling my spent cartridges too. I bought some pucks that are 96% the same content that the frog cartridges are. The pucks fit right into the cartridge, about five I think. Add a little diclor to the water when the bather load is high and use MPS to shock and convert the spent bromine back into a sanitizer. I add sodium bromide solution after a water change, get the highest percentage that you can.
-
I also had a very bad rash when we were using Nature II stick with Spa Guard Chlorinating Concentrate. We switched from Baqua Spa to Nature II when I got the rash. We have switched our chemicals again to Soft Soak by Spa Guard,( which is like Baqua Spa) you only put chemicals in once a week. We are having no problems with the water now and no rash!!! I still have scars on my legs I had the rash so bad. Hope you feel better soon. Lynnette :) :) :)
-
empolgation,
I have the frog system built in to my spa and I like the idea of refilling the bromine cartridge to save $. Can you be more specific about the bromine tabs I should get? Are there different kinds of bromine tablets or just one? EBay has 10 lbs of bromine tabs for sale here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Clear-Choice-Sanitizer-Bromine-Tablets-Chemical-10-LB_W0QQitemZ4396378381QQcategoryZ20729QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem), will that work? Can you do the same thing with the mineral cartridge? What would I be looking for?
Thanks,
Phil
I have found the quality of Bromine tabs (and other chems) vary from supplier to supplier!
I've seen Bromine tabs in particular really mess with your PH
-
empolgation,
I have the frog system built in to my spa and I like the idea of refilling the bromine cartridge to save $. Can you be more specific about the bromine tabs I should get? Are there different kinds of bromine tablets or just one? EBay has 10 lbs of bromine tabs for sale here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Clear-Choice-Sanitizer-Bromine-Tablets-Chemical-10-LB_W0QQitemZ4396378381QQcategoryZ20729QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem), will that work? Can you do the same thing with the mineral cartridge? What would I be looking for?
Thanks,
Phil
Phil,
I've had success with both Clear View and spaclear tabs without having PH issues. I would not recommend large quantities of unknown products. Buy a small amount of whatever you try with at least 96% 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethydantion made for spas. As for the mineral cartridge, I know of no alternative.