Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: tlc on January 12, 2005, 08:57:42 am
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Hot tub shopping, does anyone have anything good/bad to say about bullfrog. was all set to buy either tiger river siberian or hot springs envoy/soveriegn. My electrician told me of a bullfrog dealer. Price is much better. but can't find much on them. I will be wet testing both hopefully in the next week. Would like to keep price around 8 out the door.
Thanks
TLC
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Never heard of Bullfrog, but we love our HS Envoy !
Good idea about wet testing. It's really the only way you will know for sure if you like the tub.
;D
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tlc,
As shoemaker said, I'd certainly wet test all 3....that usually separates the wheat from the chaff. The Bullfrog concept looks really nice.....I would have considered'em if there were a dealer in Florida but there were none when I was looking. You certainly can't go wrong with either Hot Springs or Tiger River....cost and comfort would be the determining factors there. Wet test, wet test, wet test.....find a dealer with which you are comfortable....take your time. This is a big investment so do everything you can to make it one you can live with for a long time. 8)
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Thanks,
Just got back from a hs dealer about 1 hour away with all models. Have wet tested hs very nice. Would like to hear from anyone regarding bullfrog. concept looks great, but will they be around in ten years, or will the jetpak system make it???
Never can get these anwsers from the dealers.
tlc
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When you say the price is much better, does that mean cheaper? If so, be sure and ask the dealer why a Bullfrog Spa is cheaper. There are many reasons why.
A Pontiac is cheaper than a Mercedes, which car would you rather own for the rest of your life?
Bullfrog Spas are better than a lot of spas, but they have some drawbacks as well. It's probably a closer comparison with the Tiger River as opposed to the HotSpring.
Any of the spas you mentioned will give you enjoyment and hydrotherapy, it's just a matter of quality and overall customer satisfaction with the product that should determine the right spa for you.
Good luck with whichever brand you go with :)!
CEO
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Ok, your a hot springs dealer , I have a couple questions
Why is the tiger river brand less expensive. Talking to the dealer here in michigan he said they are the same except the warranty on the cabnet is less. Why can I get a siberian for 7,700 compared to a hs envoy for 8,800 when the envoy is a much smaller tub? If I could just go buy any hot tub I wanted I would get the hs envoy. But we really weren't prepared to pay over 8,000 tops. What would you recommend .
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Thanks,
ce. Would like to hear from anyone regarding bullfrog. concept looks great, but will they be around in ten years, or will the jetpak system make it???
Never can get these anwsers from the dealers.
tlc
A lot of us here who have tubs and bought them before we ever heard of Bull Frog, are looking forward to hearing from owners or people who wet test, so let us know.
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I'll do my best to answer your questions.
Differences between HS and TR:
1. Filtration- HotSpring has 100% No-Bypass filtration utilizing up to 5 filters. Tiger River filters like a conventional spa with 1-2 filters.
2. Heater- HS No-Fault Heater is made from titanium, housing and element. TR uses a stainless steel element like other spas.
3. Jets- HS has Moto-Massage and Soothing Seven jets. TR does not.
4. Controls- HS has 2 control panels for convenience. TR has 1 top side control.
5. Shell- HS has Pearlescent shell. TR does not.
Another reason that the Siberian is being sold at such a great price is that it is being discontinued. :( :( :(
I've sold 7 Envoys in the last two weeks. If it were my money, that's what I would get and never regret it! ;D
CEO
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If I could just go buy any hot tub I wanted I would get the hs envoy. But we really weren't prepared to pay over 8,000 tops. What would you recommend .
What is it about the HS envoy that you liked so much over the TR Siberian ? Did you wet test the siberian too? I honestly love the siberian. When we were shopping my choice came down between the siberian and the Grandee. I had a deal on the siberian for 6500.00 but opted for the grandee and paid 8500.00 We are happy with our choice. We love our grandee.
Good-luck. Take your time.
-Tom-
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I picked the Envoy based on specs and price and a wet test confirmed it. Paid under 8K with everything but tax.
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Just bought Envoy 2 weeks ago with cover, lifter, ozone, towel and drink holder, plastic steps, delivered, set-up for 7400.00 not including tax, It is 04 model, brand new out of the box
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Ordered the Bullfrog DVD and got it last night. Its pretty light and fluffy (worst actors) You do see people actually changing the jet packs in the video. At this point, I could't buy one with out a wet test and knowing someone who has owned one, at least for a few months.
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As far as that awesome price on the envoy where do you live??
I would love to know what dealers actually mark these things up. My guess is about 2,500 to 3,000 above cost. How could you get one for 7,something when mine starts at 8,600. If your anywhere near michigan maybe I should rent a trailer and come pick one up!!
Tracey
My husband is leaning toward the bullfrog. Should be able to wet test next week. I on the other hand am very leary about this brand.
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I think the Bullfrog idea is indeed unique but I don't think its much more than a marketing strategy. That doesn't mean they're not a fine spa, I've never wet tested one. I simply think very few people will ever be changing out jet packs so I think it comes down to how they we test against other spas, how they honor their warranty, what their dealers are like, the overall quality of their spas, etc. (or bascially, what it always comes down to).
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I just read an interesting article in forbes.com june 04. Bullfrog came up with the idea and has several patons on the jetpak system. Yes at this point I don't think I will be changing my jetpaks but when an new jet comes out on 08 or so If I go with this system I will be able to upgrade. Also forbes article said several large ht companies have tried to buy out the bullfrog company. Sounds to me like if the wet test goes great!! I may go with the bullfrog.you should read forbes article. would attach but I'm not very computer savy!
Tracey
My bullfrog dealer has offered for me to wet test at her house! I am very ancious to give this a wet test I may just have to take her up on it so I don't have to wait another week.
Also with the price of hot tubs all over the place, I wonder why watkins can't just sell online!!! I think many dealers have way too much overhead. Yesterday I went to lifestyles in utica michigan(hour away) the guy boosted about being the "countries" largest dealer. He was able to give me a 03 used outdoor showroom soveriegn for $7,101.99 . That is the worst deal ever!! I can get a new one for that!!!
Sick of these dealers giving great deals!!!!NOT
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If you do decide on the Bullfrog, be sure to keep us updated on the pros and cons. It's been very difficult to find any info from people that actually own them. Some first-hand feedback is always helpful.
Thanks and good luck!
CEO
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I just read the Forbes "article". It is a Press Release from Bullfrog.
CEO
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I simply think very few people will ever be changing out jet packs so I think it comes down to how they we test against other spas, how they honor their warranty, what their dealers are like, the overall quality of their spas, etc. (or bascially, what it always comes down to).
I agree. Its my experience in life in general the things that wear out are the things that move or are replacable. If I had one I probably wouldn't replace them too much, but if they had a new fancy one, I might have to !
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Hey just so you know, I live in the panhandle of Fla.
Hence, the name Flajoker 8).
Hot tubs have been selling like hot cakes since hurricane Ivan came thru.
They tell me the new ones are going up, due to higher shipping and factory cost. Wholesale on the Envoy is about $5000.00 according to a little birdie.
Looked at Bullfrog when I was working in Atlanta. Great looking tub, just didn't want service 350 miles away.
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If the wholesale is around 5,000, Why is it that dealers need to make 4,000 on every tub they sell!! wouldn't a grand be enough. Makes sense you would sell more tubs if the price were lower!! I wish I could buy one whole sale! At that price maybe I would get two!!!one for the back deck and one for the front deck!!!
tlc
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Every dealer I know of, regardless of brand, is a "for profit" entity. There is rent to pay, salaries, health insurance, liability insurance, inventories to maintain, a service department to equip and operate, vehicles to maintain, etc. etc......We also donate spas and products to charity functions.
I wish we could sell everybody that comes through the door a spa at cost, but we wouldn't be around for long and it might really be a stretch to service our customers with zero cash flow.
We'll probably just keep doing what we have for the last 20 years and sleep well at night knowing that we have several thousand happy customers that love their HotSpring, Tiger River, Solana, and Hot Spot Spas. :)
CEO
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You definately need to wet test if indeed you are still interested in the Bullfrog Spa. The concept is a good one, but honestly, do you really think that you would change out the jet selection in the seat of your choice? Howe much are the jet pacs and where do you put them when not in use? I saw the line at a trade show many years ago. To date, I still don't know anyone who owns one.
I am not a HS dealer but I will tell you that if it were me tossed between one of the best for 12 to 15 years of ownership vs. an off brand, I would go with the one that has a track record, HS. Remember, you only do this once, it may only cost a couple of bucks more a month to own the HS.
Your decision, best of luck :-/
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Hottubber has a good point about changing out the Jetpacks. In all of our spas, there are some of the jets that can be upgraded or swapped out. It's as easy as reaching in the spa, pulling the jet off, and popping another one in. It takes 2 seconds to do.
NO ONE ever takes the time to do it. It is highly unlikely that someone is going to go through all the rigamorough to change out an entire seat.
Also, the technology in the spas is constantly being improved and new features are devised. A five year old spa is going to look pretty dated no matter what brand. Many people are going to be ready to upgrade their spa in that time period anyway, so simply falling prey to the sales pitch of "updating" their spa with Jetpacks is somewhat short-sighted.
CEO
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If the wholesale is around 5,000, Why is it that dealers need to make 4,000 on every tub they sell!! wouldn't a grand be enough. Makes sense you would sell more tubs if the price were lower!! tlc
No $1000 is definitely not enough. That is a 16% gross profit margin.
16% would not cover operating expenses for most dealers.
I would settle for 16% if I didn't have to pay shipping, I owned the building and did not have to maintain it, had no staff, you service it yourself, did not have to adverise and the local utilities gave me free service. :) ;) :D ;D
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16% GPM? Well call me retired and send me to Hawaii! ;D
I'm sure it could be done if you were selling spas off your driveway ???.
FYI, those "jet paks" for the Bullfrog start at $650.00 each Canadian and go up to over $1000. Gimme a spa where I can interchange the individual jets for $15.00 each thank you very much! ;)
Steve
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FYI, those "jet paks" for the Bullfrog start at $650.00 each Canadian and go up to over $1000. Gimme a spa where I can interchange the individual jets for $15.00 each thank you very much! ;)
Steve
That sound you may have heard was my head hitting the floor after I fell backward off my chair. Now I'm not saying they're gouging people as I'm sure those seats aren't cheap to produce but I still see that as 95% marketing and 5% practicality. I've been saying for the longest time that I doubted people would be changing their seats out but I really wasn't meaning that due to costs. Now I KNOW people won't be changing seats if its gonna cost them $650.
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Now I KNOW people won't be changing seats if its gonna cost them $650.
The DVD did mention a return/swap program. It might not cost too much to clean them and recondition them.
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I really don't think bullfrog is expecting people to swap the seats often. The dealer here says they start around 300. Who knows what they will have later. I'm not jumping into one. I will wet test next week and let everyone know(new dealer in town isn't set up yet!)how the tub is. Concept is there, but probably will never be swapped. Also found out yesterday that there are two different size jet paks a regular chair and a lounger! Now if I like a certain jet how am I going to swap the thing into my lounger chair if it is a different size! Good thing I keep researching not really interested in the damn thing anymore! Now that it is FREEZING COLD I would just like to get into a hot tub and relax!! Too Bad I Can't
lol
tlc
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One cannot install COST or wholesale pricing over this site. >:( The consumer may think that we are getting rich in this business at their expense. They really have no idea on what goes into the making of a reasonably proffittable retailer in this field. At 16% GP, we MUST close the doors.
Shipping costs, delivery costs, insurance, overhead, delivery trucks, personel.
Great site for questions and answers on particular related items, remember where you are when writing script.
Regards... ;)
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Agreed, but it was a consumer that made the statement not a dealer, as far I can tell.
flajoker was here asking questions and told us he just purchased. He may be a disgruntled former employee or dealer but I beleive someone told him something they should not have.
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hottub man, I'm not a employee now or never have been in the hottub trade. All I did was pass along tub cost. If you read my post, you will also see I just paid 7400 dollars for a envoy.
Dealer cost is a little under 5000. So the 50 percent markup I paid is really not very much if you are buying from a brick and mortar store.
If you knew wholesale pricing on everything you bought, you would find closer to 100 percent or better on everything.
I don't know of anything you could buy for a 20 percent markup (1000.00) in this case, and be of quality or legal.
All I did was answer a question, not ment to upset anyone or offend.
If anyone offered to sell me a hottub for 20% over cost and they had a ligit buisiness, either they have to sell alot of tubs or they won't be open in 6 months. They would have to show me proven track record, or I know I will be left fending for myself when their gone.
The dealer I bought from has sold HS for about 15 years and also sells pools. They have also had the doors open for abot 20 something years.
There is many things that go into pricing of anything you buy.
Everyone knows if you buy at the mall it cost more than Walmart. If you buy from any type of store in the mall perimeter it will cost more than if that same sstore is a mile away. Location,location,location a lot of the time is a direct reflection to the cost. We have another brand of tubs about 40 miles from here that is in some of highest real estate around here. Not going to pay the markup on their name brand tubs, just so I can say I bought it at... in the blah blah center. I have no interest in their swanky store and prices.
Then again I don't have a lot of interest in Walmart and keeping the sweat shops of Taiwan and China employed. But that is another subject.
Again let me say I did not or have any reason to offend any dealers,salesmen,owners or techs in the hottub industry.
Jack
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Now after reading my own post, could someone teach me to spell and write correctly ;D
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Flajoker....
Check with someone at a local high school or college....by the way I am not tying to be a smart a$$....you do not calculate mark up using the formula you did...very simply if you sell something for say $100.00 and raw cost is $50.00 than you have made a 50% profit not 100% as you sugesst..take $100.00 selling price less cost $50.00 you have a 50% mark up..also that is gross profit and no where close to net.....for simple math if your spas cost was 5000.00 to the dealer and than they sold to you for 7500.00 they made a gross profit of 25% which in reality very very few business would survive off......when you factor in all the other costs involved....as an example the most basic costs of freight to the dealer and than delivery to you is probably close to 500.00....now your dealer is down to 20% and there is so much more to add....it seems like you got a great deal....congratulations.... :D
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Hi, We also live in Michigan and purchased a Tiger River Caspian for $7100 in July this year. I did a lot of research on spas. Tiger River has a great warranity and fully insulated which is important here in Michigan. (5 degrees this morning) Our electric bill was about $20 higher than last year, that includes changing the water. (Took a long time to heat water since tap water was so cold). I recommend going with the Tiger River since Watkins has been around for a long time and I have not read of them not standing behind the warranity on this form. Good Luck your going to love your spa. Lynnette
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TLC,
I too visited Lifestyles in Utica, MI. I was interested in the Grandee, and they were very high relative to prices that I have seen people report on this board. Go back and see another salesperson and you might get a different and higher price.
If you do not mind taking an hour ride again, you might be interested in visiting a place called Tradewinds. They sell Caldera. The owner is very low key, and seems to be competitive with price (once again relative to what others have posted here). I bought my Niagara from him, with no regrets.
Two other dealers that are within 15 minutes of Tradewinds are a Sundance Dealer as well as a Marquis dealer. All treated me fairly well. If you are interested in their names/locations, I would be happy to help.
Jeff
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Jeff,
Thanks for your advice, Taking the 45 min drive is no big deal ever heard of nino salvagio's? I go there often!! Where is tradewinds located?? I'll try to look them up online. Thanks for the advice. Also I just got a name of a guy who sells hs out of his house. Old employee of dealer he also services them. Maybe I can get that tub for a grand over whoesale after all!!!
TLC
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Ok I said it all wrong...it was late. :)
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TLC,
Yes I have heard of Nino Salvagio's (sp?). I live about 5-6 miles from it.
Just go to the Caldera, Sundance, and Marquis main site. Look for the dealer locator option. That will get you to the respective dealers. If you are looking for a zip code for this area, try 48313.
Jeff
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Ok everyone we wet tested the bullfrog the other day. It was nice. On the Jetpaks we only tried 3 different ones. Liking only one of the three. We have several questions for the dealer. Unfortunatly we can't wet test the hot springs until the guy gets his 05 tubs! We are headed up north this weekend and Petoskey has a hs dealer. Hopefully my husband can wet test up there. While bullfrog is still fresh in our minds! If all goes well we should be able to make up our minds by next week. Bullfrog has several jetpaks with different water flow thru the jets. On the one we tested, 35gallons/min ,30 gallons/min and 22 gallons /min. the 35 was good but in the model we are looking to buy one has 56 gal/min,58gal/min,42gal/min,&46gal/min. Which is more than we tested. Hopefully the pumps will support those ratio's all at once. I guess we need to wet test again because they can just change jetpaks while we sit there! Anyway it was a nice tub for all those who are wondering. I'll let you know how it compares to HS!
TLC
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Thanks for updating us.
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You probably wouldn't notice a lot of difference in quality in years 1-4 but in years 4-8 there would be no comparison, the Bullfrog would start to have jet pack failures and the connectors will fail.
The other issue you will deal with is a collection of debris and bacteria behind the packs in the void of where the plumbing is. In addition to this I believe that your plumbing for each jet pack is in the water in that void so again, as debris and contaminates collect in that mess it is hard to clean out. Chances are you will never change the pack after the first month unless it fails and then you will with you had one of the other brands simply for replacement cost, Bullfrog will not give you a credit on a pack that is “chemically damaged” and chances of that happening are pretty high!
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You probably wouldn't notice a lot of difference in quality in years 1-4 but in years 4-8 there would be no comparison, the Bullfrog would start to have jet pack failures and the connectors will fail.
Understanding the logic of your posts, how long has Bullfrog been making spas? Maybe the spa packs are made wtih Microban ;D
There is a debatable subject that hasn't come up in months.
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The PVC for the plumbing on the jet packs is not made of MicroBan....
As far as how long they have been doing this, I'm not sure but I believe less than 6 years....
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The other issue you will deal with is a collection of debris and bacteria behind the packs in the void of where the plumbing is.
There is a Bullfrog owner that has posted on other boards about the build up behind the jet packs... just like ya say. There is no water movement behind and around the jet packs which can cause a build up of all sorts of smelly stuff.
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I like the idea of Bullfrog but as it has been said many times before...If it were the best way to go someone else would have copied it....I think they are an OK spa but the idea of the jet pac I think is a nice selling tool and a great thought... but offer little practical use....and as Stuart points out the build up behind the pac is just simply not a good thing...
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(TLC)
What did you decide on ????