Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on May 27, 2005, 01:52:23 pm
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Hey guys!
I said that I would drop by from time to time when I had something pertinent to share....
Well, it has come to my attention lately that salespeople of certain brands are touting the fact that they have 1 micron filters that will out-perform pleated and even purify the water! This is simpley not true!!
I have done quite a bit of research on this and even solicited one of the largest filter manufactures in the world to help, Unicel. Here is an email from Unicel that I thought needed no changes so I will just pass it on.
"In response to your question regarding graded density vs. pleated filter cartridges. I turn to the NSF International Standard for systems components for swimming pools and spas. NSF/ANSI standard 50 clearing establishes the Filtration rates for both depth and surface type filers. This criteria is based on extensive NSF testing. Pleated filters for spas and residential pool applications are rated at 1 gallon per sq.ft. per minute. In other words, a 25 sq.ft. filter could handle 25 gallons of flow. In a commercial application the flow rate is reduced to .375 gallons per minute. Therefore, the same 25 sq.ft. pleated filter can only be rated at 9 gallons per minute.
On the other hand, a depth type filter is rated at 8 gallons per minute per square foot for residential and 3 gallons per minute per square foot for commercial. When you measure the total surface area of a depth type filter of the same dimensions as say a C-4625 pleated element you get 1.4 total square feet of surface area. As a result, the depth filter is limited to 11.2 gallons for residential use and only 4.2 gallons in commercial use.
In addition, Polyethylene and Polypropylene (depth type) and Polyester (pleated type) have a high degree of affinity to attract and hold oils through a process called absorption. (Not absorption like a sponge). As a result, they will both readily pick up body oil, perspiration, ect that is found in spa water. Pleated filters can be cleaned and reused. Depth type can not and are therefore considered disposable.
With regards to the filtration properties themselves, Both depth cartridges and to a lesser degree pleated use surface and tortuous path depth of the matrix to capture solid particulate. One has 25 sq.ft. for holding debris and the other 1.4 sq.ft. Captured debris can be readily flushed off the pleated element. Not so easily off the depth filter.
Lastly, any claim that either filter type will reduce chemical demand in a spa is misleading. Filters capture particulate by mechanical entrapment and body oils through absorption. They do not address water chemistry. Bacteria which is continuously introduced to the spa water by bathers feeds on the perspiration or oils picked up by the filter. If untreated the bacteria count can double every 20 minutes. Without proper sanitation the consumer may find themselves in a very unfriendly environment.
The theory that finer filtration will reduce chemical demand should be looked at very carefully. Finer filtration effects water turbidity caused by fine particles in suspension. Any knowledgeable pool or spa professional will tell you water clarity is dependent upon both proper filtration and proper water chemistry in balance. "
Looks like we have a new type of debate to add to the TP/FF crusade!
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Read about 3 paragraphs. Then I fell asleep.
I wish you were back here more often Stuart. I haven't slept this well in ages.
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Stuart!
Thank You!!!
I've been up against this recently and I'm sooo glad you shared this with us Thanks again ;)
BTW this place just isn't the same with out you :'( :'( :'(
Spahappy :D
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Read about 3 paragraphs. Then I fell asleep.
I wish you were back here more often Stuart. I haven't slept this well in ages.
Yeah,
It's much easier to say "This new one micron filter works 30 times better than everyone else’s and even purifies the water" than it is to explain the engineering difference in a truthful manner!
I kinda look at it like reading the Bible, it's made me fall asleep many times but it's a peaceful sleep knowing the truth!
BTW, having said all of that....How the heck are you! I miss boring you also ;)
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Stuart.
Your experience in this industry, and the no nonsence candor in which you deliver it, just can't be duplicated.
It's unfortunate that there's a whole new group on this forum that can't learn from the many pearls of wisdom you've shared in the past.
Yes I'm sucking up!!! ::)
Thanks....stick around for awhile this time...
Spahappy :D
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Thanks SH! I really missed you to!
I left the forum for several reasons; I was already tiring of the battles with several myopic views that were simply put out to tout a product line regardless of fact.
Add to that I spent hours trying to help out here and even did quite a bit of research to make sure I was not giving false info however never once did the moderator take the time to thank me for the sheer amount of effort I put forth but instead chose to slap my hand for adding to someone's comments on a very disliked and chaotic snake oil salesman that had already been kicked off this forum for his insanity!
Don't know that I will stick around but I will certainly drop by from time to time!
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I left the forum for several reasons; I was already tiring of the battles with several myopic views that were simply put out to tout a product line regardless of fact.....Don't know that I will stick around but I will certainly drop by from time to time!
Can I do it just until I need glasses? ;D
Great to see you around again, bubba stu.....hope everything is jam-up and jelly-tight for ya..... 8)
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On May 28th at 8:47am The Moderator Wrote:
Very good to see you. Thanks for all your hard work helping people here on the board. You are a real asset. Please forgive me for my heavy-handedness in the past. Welcome home.
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Can I do it just until I need glasses? ;D
Great to see you around again, bubba stu.....hope everything is jam-up and jelly-tight for ya..... 8)
aaah Tommy Roe....Now that brings back memories!!
Oops I just gave away my age :-X
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On May 28th at 8:47am The Moderator Wrote:
Very good to see you. Thanks for all your hard work helping people here on the board. You are a real asset. Please forgive me for my heavy-handedness in the past. Welcome home.
So are you moderating this too?
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Well, no. I'm not a moderator here[/i]...
;)
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Well, no. I'm not a moderator here[/i]...
;)
Yeah,
Because if you where you would have already corrected my mistake before I had to!! ;D ;) ;D
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Oh I was tryin' to....
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...never once did the moderator take the time to thank me for the sheer amount of effort I put forth...
We don't need no stinkin' moderator for that job!8) I'm sure that most of the consumers that frequent this board would join me in a hearty thank you for your contributions to this board, and I would hope that means more than kind words from our moderator. The efforts that you and the other professionals (I'm not going to name you all -- for fear of forgetting one) bring to this forum are what make it worth coming here. I've said it before, but it is a sentiment worth repeating: the fact that you and the other businesspeople here are willing to spend time to educate and help strangers that are likely to never set foot in your store, much less put a dollar in your pocket is... just plain wonderful! Thanks to all of you! :)
I have been gone for a couple of weeks, but as I was scanning the pages to see what I had missed, I was happy to see you posting again. There definitely has been a void while you were away. Please stay awhile!
Cal
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We don't need no stinkin' moderator for that job!8) I'm sure that most of the consumers that frequent this board would join me in a hearty thank you for your contributions to this board, and I would hope that means more than kind words from our moderator. The efforts that you and the other professionals (I'm not going to name you all -- for fear of forgetting one) bring to this forum are what make it worth coming here. I've said it before, but it is a sentiment worth repeating: the fact that you and the other businesspeople here are willing to spend time to educate and help strangers that are likely to never set foot in your store, much less put a dollar in your pocket is... just plain wonderful! Thanks to all of you! :)
I have been gone for a couple of weeks, but as I was scanning the pages to see what I had missed, I was happy to see you posting again. There definitely has been a void while you were away. Please stay awhile!
Cal
Thanks Cal! You guys always make me feel appreciated!
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Hey guys!
I said that I would drop by from time to time when I had something pertinent to share....
Well, it has come to my attention lately that salespeople of certain brands are touting the fact that they have 1 micron filters that will out-perform pleated and even purify the water! This is simpley not true!!
I have done quite a bit of research on this and even solicited one of the largest filter manufactures in the world to help, Unicel. Here is an email from Unicel that I thought needed no changes so I will just pass it on.
"In response to your question regarding graded density vs. pleated filter cartridges. I turn to the NSF International Standard for systems components for swimming pools and spas. NSF/ANSI standard 50 clearing establishes the Filtration rates for both depth and surface type filers. This criteria is based on extensive NSF testing. Pleated filters for spas and residential pool applications are rated at 1 gallon per sq.ft. per minute. In other words, a 25 sq.ft. filter could handle 25 gallons of flow. In a commercial application the flow rate is reduced to .375 gallons per minute. Therefore, the same 25 sq.ft. pleated filter can only be rated at 9 gallons per minute.
On the other hand, a depth type filter is rated at 8 gallons per minute per square foot for residential and 3 gallons per minute per square foot for commercial. When you measure the total surface area of a depth type filter of the same dimensions as say a C-4625 pleated element you get 1.4 total square feet of surface area. As a result, the depth filter is limited to 11.2 gallons for residential use and only 4.2 gallons in commercial use.
In addition, Polyethylene and Polypropylene (depth type) and Polyester (pleated type) have a high degree of affinity to attract and hold oils through a process called absorption. (Not absorption like a sponge). As a result, they will both readily pick up body oil, perspiration, ect that is found in spa water. Pleated filters can be cleaned and reused. Depth type can not and are therefore considered disposable.
With regards to the filtration properties themselves, Both depth cartridges and to a lesser degree pleated use surface and tortuous path depth of the matrix to capture solid particulate. One has 25 sq.ft. for holding debris and the other 1.4 sq.ft. Captured debris can be readily flushed off the pleated element. Not so easily off the depth filter.
Lastly, any claim that either filter type will reduce chemical demand in a spa is misleading. Filters capture particulate by mechanical entrapment and body oils through absorption. They do not address water chemistry. Bacteria which is continuously introduced to the spa water by bathers feeds on the perspiration or oils picked up by the filter. If untreated the bacteria count can double every 20 minutes. Without proper sanitation the consumer may find themselves in a very unfriendly environment.
The theory that finer filtration will reduce chemical demand should be looked at very carefully. Finer filtration effects water turbidity caused by fine particles in suspension. Any knowledgeable pool or spa professional will tell you water clarity is dependent upon both proper filtration and proper water chemistry in balance. "
Looks like we have a new type of debate to add to the TP/FF crusade!
Stuart,
Do you mind getting in touch with the manufacturer of the 1 Micron cartridge so we can hear both sides of the story instead of just Unicel's. As far as I am aware, Unicel does not manufacture the 1 Micron cartridge.
Thanks,
Chris
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good idea...
I've been purchasing 1 mic filters from these guys, and just dropped them an email asking them to weight in:
www.micropure.ca
We'll see if they respond.
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A filter is not a filter, is not a filter, is not a filter. You CANNOT say that a pleated filter is 'better' than a depth filter or vice-versa. Filters are designed to accomplish a specific task and it requires some engineering to choose the correct filter for the application. As the saying goes "always choose the right tool for the job."
Typically, a standard nominally rated meltblown depth cartridge will handily outperform a pleated cartridge both in cost and in filtration performance (dirt loading, particulate removal). But not in flowrate. There are many exceptions to this statement and it should be noted that this is NOT the case under all circumstances.
There are many manufacturers with many products made up of many combinations of many different types of media. For a customer looking at spa filtration, choices narrow down to two things due to the trend of the market; pleated or not pleated, it is really that simple in the consumer's mind. Also, MOST micron ratings on filters are developed by their own manufacturer. So a 30 micron filter to one manufacturer might be a 1 micron filter to another.
It is with great confidence that I would rely, hands down, on a meltblown, depth-media cartridge over a pleated element for the following reasons: (from a consumer's perspective)
1. Polypropylene is cheap.
2. Customer can throw it away easily (or recycle)
3. Do not need to take it to be cleaned.
4. Provides dirt-holding capability like a sponge (does not unload)
5. Removes carbon-chain molecules (body oils, hair products, etc.) , inherent to its polypropylene construction
6. Provides a natural odor-removing ability, inherent to its polypropylene construction
7. Rely less on chemicals to balance water state; cost savings and their potential harm to spa users
There is a reason why all drinking water filter systems use polypropylene meltblown filtration. Would you not want to have the cleanest possible water to enjoy?
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We are an Arctic Spas dealer an have been using Micropure filters for about 2 years since Arctic adopted them. The net result is that customers are very receptive and for the most part happy. The 'chemical' savings is in the removed need for filter detergent, stain & scale removers, metal removers, flocculants etc. The sanitizer is not affected.
People in most cities work harder than ever these days and appreciate the simplicity of the system. Dump the water - change the filter. Just like changing the oil on your car.
The literature I have read from Micropure on pleated filters shows that pleated filters will change (increase) micron size with multiple washings. This creates a need for more clarifier to filter small debris.
As a store, our filter sales increased immensely. Our chemical sales did not suffer volume-wise either. We don't sell as much of the "bad" chemicals (listed above). We do sell more sanitizer, shock etc. I attribute this to a bigger customer base with store growth along with better customer retention due to their need to come back to our store every 3 months for a filter. I don't have to worry about them going to a big box store to find their pleated filter. And ultimately lose their chemical sales due to price.
Try them, what do you have to lose... (except a Christmas card from Unicel) :)
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Micron Ratings are not the only aspect we need to look at. We need to look at efficiency. The MicroPure 1 micron filters are 94% efficient at filtering a measure amount of debris form the water. In all of our tests, we have not seen any pleated filter do close to the same. I have nothing against pleated filters, they work for the most part. We at MicroPure have lived the filtration business and found that depth filters far surpass a pleated filters in cleaning hot tub water.
The simple fact that polypro will absorb many contaminates in the water. Mostly oils, make up, deodorants and soap residue. Other materials will simply not measure up.
The water has to take a much longer path in a depth filter than in a pleated. Thus there is a much better chance of the water getting cleaner.
I have been reading about flow. Filter X will allow this much water through etc. The fact of the matter is, you don't want a lot of water to go through fast while cleaning. While Micron filters will not restrict the flow of your spa, it is a fine balancing act. Restricting (reducing) flow will increase filtration. The issue is that the spa industry all wants to maintain flow rates for jet pressure. That is why we have built these particular filters this way. Other companies have tried to copy us and have put out polypro filters that reduce flow way too much. We have done a lot of research in this area to make the filters work in spas. This is why you have not seen anyone successfully accomplish this until now. MicroPure filters are very porous. In fact they will only drop 2 psi from new to dirty. Since the filter is made up of caves and caverns there is about 900 sq ft of "surface" material exposed through the entire filter. This little sales pitch helps our dealers explain it to the customers. Unlike pleated filters that cake with debris and reduce flow quickly, our filters tend to last longer without servicing.
Another major advantage is that you don't have to clean a MicroPure filter. Many studies have shown that you can never get a filter clean, be it pleated or not. In addition, a lot of people clean the pleated filters past their usable lifespan. The pores in the filter just get to big.
People don't have time to clean their filter, nor do they want to . It is a ugly job. People throw out their pleated filters anyway in a lot of cases. With a depth filter there is no fuss. You just put it in your spa and 3-5 months later you will throw it out. No more cleaning.
I saw our web page posted earlier. If you want more information please check us out.
It is nice to see our product on the forums. It shows that we are growing. Remember, any spa can use MicroPure filters, don’t let the competition get you down just because they have something better.
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I will be very happy to get in touch with the other manufacture....Thanks for providing the address!
I simply forwarded my question to unicel to you guys as I was asking why they did not offer these filters!
Let's keep this going until we can come up with some logic...Although because of the fact that it directly effects the pocket-book of many I think there will be some very myopic views and will end up like the TP/FF debate.
I can say that if they can bring the cost down and make it a standard option on most brands to have either I would love to leave it at the discretion of the customer (me included).
I will also attempt to get some of the filter manufactures to log on and get directly involved in the debate. I think I would have doubts on the ones that didn't want to...