Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: trachda on May 17, 2005, 05:18:32 pm
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Help!
We are looking into buying a tub. We have two dealers in my area, one carries Sundance and Coleman, the other carries Hot Springs. My first impression is that Sundance costs more for similar features and size. Is one higher quality than the other? Coleman is out due to funky headrest.
The dealer offered us a 2005 Sundance Cameo with ozone, cd/stereo, lift cover and stairs for about $9200, is this fair price?
Thanks
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Sundance and Hot Springs have similar reputations (very good) as spa manufacturers. Are you comfortable with the after sale each dealer will/may need to provide? Have you had a chance to wet test either?
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Knowing what we all know, we do understand your question. The responses will be unanimous. If you have a coin, you can make a very good decision with a flip.
That is an excellent price on a Sundance, probably better than you realize for what you stated.
What kept you from making a decision? ??? ???
If you were to decide on one, which one do you think would be a mistake and why? ???
Now there is a good question. Please tell us why you did not place the order before you left Hot Springs? And, Why did you not place the order for the Sundance? What kept you from buying?
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How is one to know, unless your a dealer, that the price was (better than they realize) so good.
Show the dealer invoice and the sales receipt from the recent past 5 spa purchases to gain credibilty and validate that great price, and I'm betting your close ratio will sky-rocket.
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No it wouldn't, they would want a "better" price.
I have done this before to prove the price was the same for everyone. They weren't impressed, they didn't buy, they isisted they should get a better price than everyone else.
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Hmmm I can see that happening. I still think you'd take down the barrier of doubting the price offered was in fact a good price, a GREAT price and place you that much closer to closing the deal.
Better to have them walk away feeling your price was fair than to have them walk out with the thought of your price was probably $1000 higher than the bottom price. That's probably not the case, but doubt,pecption...........reality.
"Maybe the next guys price will validate my decision".
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Hmmm I can see that happening. I still think you'd take down the barrier of doubting the price offered was in fact a good price,....................
"Maybe the next guys price will validate my decision".
Is it the barrier of doubt, or is it the lack of trust? ???
Or is it maybe, I gotta have a better price or you don't get my business?
No offense intended, but the guy that will validate your price is at a show this weekend. He knows how to help you make your decision for you with a smile and you will be happy. I only wish I could do that to people, but then I have been honest far too long to change my stripes.
This seems to be a consumers game of russian roullete.
Quality, Value (price), Service (dealer) Pick any two but not three.
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Buy the Sundance. Better construction.
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If I were to choose between the two just on brand, I would say sundance.
Put your butt in one and see what feels better, then I would take that one.
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Buy the Sundance. Better construction.
Great information! You convinced me, I'm switching brands!
Terminator
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Wet test and let your backside decide.
Two of the very best tubs on the market.
I would give HotSpring the edge in jet variety - note I didn't say jet count.
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congratulations!
Great information! You convinced me, I'm switching brands!
Terminator
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The following is a transcript from one of my customers that we recorded on videotape:
"My name is Tim Price of Price Construction. I recently bought a Jetsetter spa from Mr. Bob Hill who originally purchased the spa here at East Texas Spa. A few months ago, a large oak tree fell on this spa and, as you can see in this picture, it appears to be completely destroyed. I purchased the spa from Mr. Hill and had the tree removed. I then spent about $95 on material to fix the spa and now it works like new. My wife and I use it everyday. I highly recommend this spa, the Jetsetter, made by HotSpring Spas."
A 60-foot tall oak tree fell dead-center on this 2-year old Jetsetter lengthwise. The tree was 6' diameter. It cracked the Endurol shell on top at each end of the spa. The force of the impact caused the Everwood panels to detach from the frame in some places. The impact expelled the pump and heater from the equipment compartment.
Mr. Price purchased some Permalite from us, popped the cracked edges of the shell back into place, and applied the adhesive. He nailed the Everwood panels back into position, and put the pump and heater back into the cabinet. He filled the spa with water, plugged it in, and it ran like the day it was built without leaking a drop!
That, my friend, is quality construction! ;D
Terminator
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I think you can get them down a little lower. I just got a 2005 Cameo for $8900.
Pice includes:
Delivery
CDSE Ozone system
Deluxe Hard Cover w/locks
Start-Up Chemicals
Personalized Home Orientation
Delivery and Set-up
Pool/Spa Company Discount Card for Life
Stereo will add $1K and I couldn't get them to budge on that price.
I had to pit various quotes that I received from Sundance dealers around the country to get them to come down from starting price of $10,600. Also ask for Senior, military, police etc, discounts.
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"I think you can get them down a little lower. I just got a 2005 Cameo for $8900."
Maybe not, she was quoted with additional items, a cover lifter, entry step, a stereo and there are 3 CD ozonators, I see you got the SE.
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Both are good tubs. I looked at both sundance and hot springs and chose a hot springs. But a good friend chose a sundance -- a cameo in fact.
Despite the reputation HS has, amongst some people on this board, for costing too much, I too found the sundance to be much more expensive. No disrespect to my friend, but I wouldn't trade my grandee for his cameo, and certainly would not pay more for it.
Sundance is not better constructed. Let me see if I can come up with a *meaningful* comment. Since I own a HS this will probably come out as skewed for HS. I just know more about the tub I own.
1) Pumps
SD has more powerful pumps than HS. Some people love this, some people think they run way too hard and turn them down. Think about how you will use the tub, and what kind of therapy feels best to you.
2) Filtration
HS tri-x filters are very nice and last a while and are super easy to clean. SD micro filter might need to be replaced 1-2 times a year (It's pretty easy to gum up at 1 micron). Although SD might have moved away from the micro-filter design in 2005. If so, the 2005 SD line might have some "new" experimental filtration system. Or, it might not. HS has 5 filters on many of its bigger tubs. I think more filters and larger square footage of filtration is better, but it is *certainly* a debatable point.
3) Chemicals
SD pushes bromine, and HS pushes MPS/dichlor. I think you can switch your SD tub to not use bromine with little effort, though.
4) Rumors and old (maybe) info
2004 models of SD had some noisy diverter valve problems and a new diverter valve design was supposed to be coming to help this. Others filled their diverter valves with silicon to muffle the sound with great success. You might want to ask about this. Also, some people stated the "stainless steel" jets on the SD discolor, but others vehemently deny this.
5) Seating
HS has more open style seats and SD has more bucket-style seats. I like open style seats because I like to move around, others like bucket style seats. I believe the SD has handles built in. I thought that was nice.
6) Types of jets
The HS moto-massage is hit or miss on people. At first I hated it, but after a second wet test, I *loved* it. It is the only jets in any tub I can sit in front of for > 30 minutes without feeling itchy, sore, or "rubbed raw" (on both my HS and my friends cameo). If you are a motomassage kinda guy, you gotta get a HS. If you aren't a motomassage kinda guy, you really shouldn't get a HS.
7) Stereo
HS has a better sounding transducer system, IMO, but it costs WAY too much, and neither system is as good, $$ wise as buying some good marine-grade speakers. The warranty on the speakers is, I believe, 1 year, and that is for a reason.
Alot of my SD information might be older, as I know they changed a bunch of things in the 2005/6 line (like, I thought someone said they finally ditched the 1 micron filter??).
My personal opinion is that HS has some neat things like the tri-x filters and the moto-massage that give it some unique brand identity. SD really pushes its much more powerful pumps.
Anyway, thems my opinions and I'm sticking to them.
-Ed
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Maybe they didnt feel that a hot tub is worth almost 10K!!!
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She was quoted $9,200 with Stereo. You were quoted $8,900 without a stereo.
That is only $300 more for a stereo.
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I wanted to make a selected response to Ed’s comments.
“2) Filtration - HS tri-x filters are very nice and last a while and are super easy to clean. SD micro filter might need to be replaced 1-2 times a year (It's pretty easy to gum up at 1 micron). Although SD might have moved away from the micro-filter design in 2005. If so, the 2005 SD line might have some "new" experimental filtration system. Or, it might not. HS has 5 filters on many of its bigger tubs. I think more filters and larger square footage of filtration is better, but it is *certainly* a debatable point.”
Both will keep your water clean. That is what you are worried about.
”3) Chemicals - SD pushes bromine, and HS pushes MPS/dichlor. I think you can switch your SD tub to not use
Bromine with little effort, though.”
I disagree. Sundance allows you to use both MPS/Dichlor with a N2 Cartridge or Bromine or Baqua.
”4) Rumors and old (maybe) info - 2004 models of SD had some noisy diverter valve problems and a new diverter valve design was supposed to be coming to help this. Others filled their diverter valves with silicon to muffle the sound with great success. You might want to ask about this. Also, some people stated the "stainless steel" jets on the SD discolor, but others vehemently deny this.”
Don’t take offense to this Ed and Chas and East Texas, but Hotspring’s diverters were just as noisy as Sundance’s. Previously, Sundance’s diverters were noisy on the middle position on either diverter for the Optima/Cameo, where as Hotspring’s diverters are noisy at full blast position. I might have them mixed up. What made it an issue for Sundance was the diverters are always right by the seat you are sitting in, where as Hotspring tends to put the diverter where no one sits.
”5) Seating
HS has more open style seats and SD has more bucket-style seats. I like open style seats because I like to move around, others like bucket style seats. I believe the SD has handles built in. I thought that was nice.”
Personal preference.
”6) Types of jets
The HS moto-massage is hit or miss on people. At first I hated it, but after a second wet test, I *loved* it. It is the only jets in any tub I can sit in front of for > 30 minutes without feeling itchy, sore, or "rubbed raw" (on both my HS and my friends cameo). If you are a motomassage kinda guy, you gotta get a HS. If you aren't a motomassage kinda guy, you really shouldn't get a HS.”
Jetting is personal preference.
7) Stereo
HS has a better sounding transducer system, IMO, but it costs WAY too much, and neither system is as good, $$ wise as buying some good marine-grade speakers. The warranty on the speakers is, I believe, 1 year, and that is for a reason.
Ahh, no stereo made today has a 2-year warranty. Except for Sundance’s.
”Alot of my SD information might be older, as I know they changed a bunch of things in the 2005/6 line (like, I thought someone said they finally ditched the 1 micron filter??).”
They still use the 1 micron cartridge in their 850 series. Now they are using a disposable 5 micron cartridge in their 880 series. I would call those items unique that give Sundance brand identity.
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I wanted to make a selected response to Ed’s comments.
No problemo. You can't say anything one way or the other about a major brand here without lots of comments, and thats a good thing. Sometimes I get the usernamed confused since I don't stop by here regularly anymore. Do you sell SD?
Both will keep your water clean. That is what you are worried about.
No arguments that both will keep water clean.
Chris. Where the debate is is how much it costs in time and money to keep the water clean. I'm not talking alot of time, and I'm not talking alot of money, but I think the tri-x do a great job and come in with less maintenance than the other filters.
I disagree. Sundance allows you to use both MPS/Dichlor with a N2 Cartridge or Bromine or Baqua.
What is there to disagree with? I said SD can switch to not use Bromine. My local Sundance dealer heavily pushes bromine. I understand he doesn't represent SD directly, but neither do you. I should have said "my local dealer said his SD tubs should use bromine"
Don’t take offense to this Ed and Chas and East Texas, but Hotspring’s diverters were just as noisy as Sundance’s. Previously, Sundance’s diverters were noisy on the middle position on either diverter for the Optima/Cameo, where as Hotspring’s diverters are noisy at full blast position. I might have them mixed up. What made it an issue for Sundance was the diverters are always right by the seat you are sitting in, where as Hotspring tends to put the diverter where no one sits.
No offense taken, and you are probably right. I had not seen people post about the diverters on the HS probably because they are placed in different spots making it less of an issue.
Personal preference.
Well.. duh!
That is what the whole post is about. trachda is making a spa purchase based on personal preference, and I was telling him what areas come into play for .. wait for it.. personal preference.
No aspects of a SD and HS tub will be exactly the same, each will be different, and it *all* boils down to personal preference. When people come on these boards and say "what is best" what they are *really* saying is "what kinds of things do I need to look at to see what is a fit for me".
Don't poo-poo jet types and seating. Yes, it doesn't make sense to talk about it if one is defending one spa versus another, but that isn't the case here, Chris.
Ahh, no stereo made today has a 2-year warranty. Except for Sundance’s.
That's cool that sundance upped the warranty (I'm pretty sure it was 1 year when I looked). But it still has less than half the warranty of most other major tub components and still, in my *opinion* is not worth it.
They still use the 1 micron cartridge in their 850 series. Now they are using a disposable 5 micron cartridge in their 880 series. I would call those items unique that give Sundance brand identity.
Much agreed, then. The 1 micron filtering is something sundance does to gain some brand identity.
-Ed
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So far (2 years) the stainless steel escutcheons or whatever they are on my Optima jets have not discolored.
Brewman
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Brewman,
Alot of sundance owners have said that they have not had any discoloration.
Does anyone know where this rumor came from? Was there simply a model-year snafu that caused this in tubs past, or was it simply slander introduced by competitors?
-Ed
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regarding the jets, I have never had a jet discoloration issue from any of my customers in 16 years.
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My SD is almost three years old and no discoloration. A friend has a seven year old Cameo with no discoloration.
The 2005 models have the new diverters and they are very quiet. They also retrofit to older models.
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Great price if it includes all those extras and is a new (not floor model or used) 2005 Cameo. That price should also include delivery and set-up.
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Types of jets
The HS moto-massage... It is the only jet in any tub I can sit in front of for > 30 minutes without feeling itchy, sore, or "rubbed raw" (on both my HS and my friends cameo). If you are a motomassage kinda guy, you gotta get a HS. If you aren't a motomassage kinda guy, you really shouldn't get a HS.
I might have agreed with your final statement last year, but now HS offers the Accolade, which is a medium-sized tub with amazing jet performance, and no Moto Massage Jet. Not a Moto fan? Try this one out. Also, you shouldn't overlook the Tiger River line. Three models, good variety of seating and jets, the biggest offer two large jet pumps, and not a Moto in sight.
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Ahh, no stereo made today has a 2-year warranty. Except for Sundance’s.
Beachcomber has had a full two year guarantee on it's stereo for years. Please keep your facts straight, or at least put in a disclaimer such as: "To the best of my knowledge"
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Beachcomber has had a full two year guarantee on it's stereo for years. Please keep your facts straight, or at least put in a disclaimer such as: "To the best of my knowledge"
I would have known that if Beachcomber decided to put the entire written warranty on thier website. Do you mind sending me a copy of the stereo warranty. My email is chrish484@hotmail.com. If you only have it on hard copy, please private message me and I will give you my mailing address so you can send it to me.
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I would have known that if Beachcomber decided to put the entire written warranty on thier website. Do you mind sending me a copy of the stereo warranty. My email is chrish484@hotmail.com. If you only have it on hard copy, please private message me and I will give you my mailing address so you can send it to me.
Check your email. I only have hard copies, but scanners are wonderful devices.
Enjoy