Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: moviebuff2 on April 23, 2005, 07:36:58 pm
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More questions from a newcomer...
Why is it that the dealer where you buy the spa is the only dealer that can honor the warranty? (At least this is how I gather it works from what I've read on this forum).
I bought my new Toyota van from a dealer that was an hour away from my home because they had the best price... and I knew I could get all warranty work done at the closest Toyota dealership.
Treatment like that makes me feel that the MANUFACTURER is taking care of me, not just the dealer. Anyone know why the spa business works the way it does?
Nancy
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Oh no, there you have gone and started it! :o
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Make an appointment. Drive your spa to the closest dealer and I am sure they will service it. Is that a can opener I just heard? I hate worms.
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I believe it has to do with warranty payment or lack there of. A selling dealer will take care of you during the warranty even if it costs them some money, another dealer will be losing money on you every time he/she goes out to service the tub.
I also believe that if you moved to a new location and needed service that the local person would take care of you under warranty no matter where you bought it from.
I know that my dealer said that all their customers get taken care of first whenever service calls come in - it's their way of taking care of THEIR customer. I liked that and being a service tech in a different industry, I do take care of my good customers better than others!
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Last July, I bought my tub from the nearest MasterSpas dealer to me......225 miles away. About 2 months ago, a new MasterSpas dealership opened in my area. They are great people and have said they will be happy to cover any warranty work for me.....now that sounds like service...... 8)
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Vinny,
You pretty much nailed it ....that is part of your dealer agreement to service the spas you sell and at times it will cost you money....
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Vinny is totally correct.
The retail dealer I used to work for calculated that it cost about $100 to go out on a service call ( payroll, gas, insurance, etc... ) The amount the factory gives the dealer to go out is usually $50-$75. So if you didnt sell it, you are losing money. So most dealers wont do it.
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I had the local Hot Springs dealer tell me that they changed $50 for a service call. He said it was to pay for their gas.
All of the other dealers I've been to - Sundance, Artesian and Marquis don't charge for service calls. I guess it varies from dealer to dealer but I would have thought since I was looking at a $10,000 Hot Springs spa that they could have gotten a little "gas allowance" out of the sale.
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Watkins Manufacturing has a simple approach: if you sell it, you must service it.
I have only one or two tubs which are far enough away that I don't want to drive to them. I call a local repair shop, send them any parts they might need and pay them to do the job. I get paid by the factory for the repair, but generally not enough to cover the costs. However, since I sold the spa I must take care of it.
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Watkins Manufacturing has a simple approach: if you sell it, you must service it.
I have only one or two tubs which are far enough away that I don't want to drive to them. I call a local repair shop, send them any parts they might need and pay them to do the job. I get paid by the factory for the repair, but generally not enough to cover the costs. However, since I sold the spa I must take care of it.
Do they make allowances for relocated people and their spas?
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Here's a simple way of looking at it. On average, the average spa is going to require an average $xxx of warranty work.
There are a number of way this can be paid for, but it will ALWAYS be paid for by the CONSUMMER............... you.
The manufacturer can add $xxx to the cost of the spa, pass it on the to dealer, who will pass it on to the consummer.
The dealer can add $xxx to the cost of the spa to cover their average warranty work.
The dealer can add less than $xxx to the cost of the spa and charge a small service charge on warranty work.
Either way, the consummer is paying $xxx above the actual cost of the spa to cover the average amount of warranty work that can be expected.
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THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!
This is something I've been preaching for years. Warranties are included with products but they are not free. Spa makers, or any other entity that offers a warranty on their products incur costs to honor the warranties, thus they are expenses, thus they are recovered by the mfg. I wonder what a huge corporation like Ford or GM pay in expenese for a year to provide us warranties? Think beyone the cost of parts and mechanic's labor. There is also administration costs, and more. I often wonder how much less expensive goods would be if we didn't have to pay these expenses. Maybe not much, but who know?
Brewman
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THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!
This is something I've been preaching for years. Warranties are included with products but they are not free. Spa makers, or any other entity that offers a warranty on their products incur costs to honor the warranties, thus they are expenses, thus they are recovered by the mfg. I wonder what a huge corporation like Ford or GM pay in expenese for a year to provide us warranties? Think beyone the cost of parts and mechanic's labor. There is also administration costs, and more. I often wonder how much less expensive goods would be if we didn't have to pay these expenses. Maybe not much, but who know?
Brewman
Not sure about GM or Ford, but the Dodge/Chrysler end of DaimlerChrysler spent about 5.5 billion USD in 2004.
EPUS or Expense Per Unit Sold (ie warranty costs) really eat into profit.
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Do they make allowances for relocated people and their spas?
Yes they do. They also will require a new dealer to take care of all previously sold spas in the area - provided they are still under warranty of course.
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I guess the question still stands.....who will do the warranty work when you relocate with your spa???
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Why wouldn't they?
Think about it. You move across the country. No way is your original dealer popping out 2000 miles to service your spa. You paid for the warranty when you bought the spa. Per your agreement withthe mfg. you have a warranty. Whatever spa dealer services your brand of spa in your area should be able to file a warranty claim or working on your spa, as long as they are an authorized dealer.
Any dealers out there disagree with this?
Brewman
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No disagreement here, Brewman. Most dealers only have a problem with people who travel to a different territory to save a few bucks and then expect the closer dealer to service their spa. As much as a lot of people like to compare the two, the spa and car business are VERY different.
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I can absolutely see why a local dealer would balk at wanting to do warranty service on a spa purchased somewhere else, when a relocation is not part of the picture. Especially when you consider that they may not even break even on the work.
Brewman
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Well nobody has really said it yet, and please don't give me a lot of flack over this, BUT, "inquiring minds want to know." ???
It's really simple, when you buy a spa, most people think you have fluff in your price, if your honest you don't, if your smart you had better play their game, but the dealer usually loses $$.
If the shopper calls a neighboring dealer who would be willing to undercut the price to get the business, you are supporting not only his business overhead that includes service, but his lack of ethics and integrity that says it is ok to do this when he knows he is not going to follow through to service you and because of the distance, you know it too.
It remains to be the seller's obligation to service and support your needs, not the closer dealer, who I might ad, you choose not support by purchasing the product he presented to you. You not only his took his recommendation to purchase the product but his time and money to represent and support the recommendation.
When you put the $$$ in the #1 position, I can understand WHY people do this. BUT to expect another to take money out of their pocket for you.......come on........what do they get, and don't tell me referrals and cuddos about how great we are because they have been bragging about their shrewed and cunning senses that got the BEST product at a cheaper price from the other guy. They have probably been the source of referrals for the opposing dealer. This establishes an ATTITUDE in the consumer about dealers.
One such case, true story and I have too many to tell, one shopper does buy from the neighboring dealer, who knowingly underprices the spa to get the business, and his brother buys too. 2 years later one has a problem and we decline to service. They call the mfg who in turns calls us to do them a favor. We cave in go out and do the service. Then the customer calls the mfg to pitch a verbal assualt on our honesty and integrity of our company to alledge that we put in a GENERIC pump and not the "name brand" pump, and that we knowingly cheated them because they did not buy from us.
As the dealer,I am deeply offended that they would do this without first investigating their beliefs, or to even think that we would do that. This complaint then goes to all of the key figure heads and executives of the mfg requiring a formal inquiry. After a weeks time, of course then, an adminstrative assistant of the mfg confirmed it was in fact their pump that was installed by their dealer that has been buying from them for 16 years. Do you begin to see the damage done by a loose cannon?
Remember, this is a true story, 11 months later he called to appologize to the telephone receptionist for his misunderstanding, who then relayed the message to me after he hung up. 1 week later his brother called for service. (You have really got to be kidding, the answer as you can expect was NO) :o
No after market referrals about their great product, no in store visits, nobody mentions their name as hearing about us from them, no not even a chemical sale.
This happens all too often to dealers. And, I can understand the need for consumers to inquire about such a phenomonon. Like it was said earlier, drive it in, we will work on it. Move in from the bordering dealer's area with an address change, what can we do to service you and make a difference, just be sure your neighbor knows you did not buy the last one.
WHY should we take money out of our pockets to help those who left their money elsewhere and support the lack of honor to follow through on their obligation to you.
Yes there is a cost of doing business, but would you be so generous if you were in our shoes to help others going out of your way, to spend your time or that of your hired help, to send a truck that has to stop for gas to get there and smile and say thank you, call again. We tried it. IT DOSEN'T WORK. These are the customers you can do without.
"Sometimes you gotta fire the customer"
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It's really simple, when you buy a spa, most people think you have fluff in your price, if your honest you don't, if your smart you had better play their game, but the dealer usually loses $$.
If the dealer usually loses $$ then how do they stay in business?
I agree with what you said in your post about that situation.
I just wish dealers would post one price for all and leave it at that. Case in point....
Walked in to look at a spa....ended up wet testing it.....went back 2 weeks later...different salesperson was there and we overheard him discussing the "price" on the spa we were considering....
HMMMM.....when he mentioned a price about 800 dollars less than what we were quoted as the "Price"....needless to say I was a bit pissed off.....
How do you respond to that? I think I have a right to be a bit pissed off :o
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"HMMMM.....when he mentioned a price about 800 dollars less than what we were quoted as the "Price"....needless to say I was a bit pissed off.....
How do you respond to that? I think I have a right to be a bit pissed off"
Yes you do! And that is what everybody wants to THINK, the price is not really the price, what is the real price?
"If the dealer usually loses $$ then how do they stay in business? "
I have witnessed more than 87 other competititors come in and go out of business in my marketing area for a long list of reasons that have a GREAT deal to do with ethics, Integrity, lack of Honor and a poor attitude when it come to customer CARE. C customers A are R really E everything.
We take care of our customers and we pay a very dear price to do so, which includes more payless paydays than any of you would be willing to believe or endure, in our efforts to support 11 families and follow through on our committment to take care of over 5,000 our customers.
Why do we do it? I honestly don't know, but it is the way I was taught to HONOR your committments, and I am too old to change in this lifetime.
"I just wish dealers would post one price for all and leave it at that"
I think we just had this conversation in a previous thread. Been there, done that. They walk in, walk around, look at the prices, ask what that includes and walk out. They now know everything they need to know about that dealer, or do they. What about the people? What about the relationship? From the shoppers perspective, What about the Price?
"It's really simple, when you buy a spa, most people think you have fluff in your price, if your honest you don't, if your smart you had better play their game, but the dealer usually loses $$. "
We stopped posting the prices through the advice of all of the marketing geniuses and those who play this game. Now the shoppers need us for something before they leave, HOW MUCH IS IT? We now have an opportunity to interact with them. And, when they ask in the first 5 minutes What is the Price, we tell them, after asking, they ask, what does that include, which is putting the "cart before the horse", Then they later ask, what's your best price............or a variation of same, as if for some reason they didn't hear you before.
That's when we tell them it is the same price, because if it is different now, then I lied to you before. Some people do not understand that philisophy. People do not expect others to be honest, especially when they are selling something, or should I say "when money is involved".
Intuition, reading people, gut reactions, character, first impressions, they all work very well, yours and ours. We do well at what we do, we would just like to do better and have a payday everyweek. It is not as though people are busting down the door in this economy.
YOU as a consumer are right to get pi$$ed off and I would too, right along with you. But, you know what, we have a second store 35 miles away, we tell the truth here and they tell the truth there. It has never been a problem for us. But, shoppers are shoppers.
I think we are all different and products of our environment. We all have impressions of others even in the forum. Yes indeed, we are all different, and some of us don't like each other, while others are looking for the answers we read. It is a shame we do not have a society where we could actually help each other.
They say 4% of the population are sociopathic, that leaves 96% of us who do have the ability to really care. Think about it.
Are you afraid of paying too much, or too little? Why is all the emphasis on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Thanks for all the posts - I haven't checked back in a few days and this thread has really taken off.
I did not know that the mfgs did not fully reimburse dealers for warranty work - now I do. That explains a lot.
I cannot fathom why mfgs do not fully - or at least nearly fully - reimburse dealers for their costs in honoring warrranties; it's the mfg that makes the thing, for Pete's sake!
But anyway, if you care to read on, I'd like to comment on why price matters so much, often more than "relationships".
There is a deep seated desire to get a very competitive price - it makes the consumer feel validated... it's like we've been successful in protecting our best interests... who knows, it's probably a brain-stem, biological thing!
This desire to get a very good price is the reason everyone heads to Costco several times each year... it's not because it's a fun shopping experience (it isn't - admit it, you feel like cattle as you trudge in pushing your cart.) The fixation on low prices is also, and obviously, driving the success of Walmart --- no one speaks about their enduring "relationship" with Walmart.
If purchasing decisions were made based on "relationships", downtown America, not big-box retailers, would be thriving.
Consumers know that a retailer can always say "no, go buy it somewhere else"... which is exactly what happened when I bought my car... the local dealer couldn't match the price on the exact same car. I drove an extra 25 minutes and saved a few hundred dollars - does $200 make a lot of difference in the overall price of a $30,000 car - of course not - but after researching my purchase to death (like I'm doing with the spa), I wanted to reward myself with the best price.
Despite the key differences between a spa dealer and a car dealer, somethings must be the SAME. Some dealers give better prices than others because they are better run/managed businesses (lower overhead, sell more units with lower profit margins - whatever).
My point is that some buyers want to buy from whoever can give the best price... and the way things are set up with the mfg, that isn't practical (no, I am NOT going to shoot myself in the foot and buy from some guy who's 2 hours away to save $300, just to go broke when it's time to call on the warranty). I'm not "stoopid" ;-)
And another comment: any product that has a negotiated, "wiggle room" price brings out the desire get a very competitive price. I COMPLETELY agree with the folks who are calling for dealers to post prices that reflect the dealer's true, BEST price and that is the same for everyone. Occassional "blow-out!!!" sales are a turn off - they make you feel like you have to wait for the sale - otherwise you're getting ripped off!
I am certain after I've seen a few more tubs, I will make my final decision, buy a spa from a local, top name-brand dealer (current front-runner Sundance) and fall in love with my spa; come to think of it, if I had one already I'd be sitting in it instead of typing this.
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Are you afraid of paying too much, or too little? Why is all the emphasis on $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
JMcD,
I am happy that you run your business like you do.
However.....there is a huge emphasis on price.....my God....an $800 difference in price just from one consumer to the other? Just in that one case?
Do you purchase a house and not worry about the price? You have a family and your employee's have families....do they care about the price on goods and services they pay for? OF COURSE!!!!!!!!
I dont think folks are afraid of pricing if it is done honestly. The majority of the places we have checked out appear to have priced their spa's in a reasonable price range (all are higher than any of the prices folks have stated in here). Do I feel that I am getting ripped off....no....but I am a smart consumer and would like to get a fair price on that spa.
As far as a relationship with a dealer goes....well if I felt that the price I got from the dealer was fair then HECK YEAH I will do business there and foster that relationship. However, if I come to find out that I was "that guy" that paid the extra hard earned cash....guess what? I dont think I will be doing ANY business with them in the future.
Its a two way street.
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Thanks for all the posts - I haven't checked back in a few days and this thread has really taken off.
I did not know that the mfgs did not fully reimburse dealers for warranty work - now I do. That explains a lot.
I cannot fathom why mfgs do not fully - or at least nearly fully - reimburse dealers for their costs in honoring warrranties; it's the mfg that makes the thing, for Pete's sake!
Three years ago the reimbursement on spas that I repair was $55, now the reimbursement is $50! Go figure! Someone is making money off of the warranty, it just isn't me.
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I can absolutely see why a local dealer would balk at wanting to do warranty service on a spa purchased somewhere else, when a relocation is not part of the picture. Especially when you consider that they may not even break even on the work.
Brewman
i asked this question once before , but never got an answer....
i understand the common thread that warranty work usually doesn't even break even for the dealer. any one have info on the numbers? is it 25%,50%, 60%, or 90% of the warranty reimbursements not covering actual cost?? any guestimates even?
have any of the dealers out there protested the problem?? with appliances (they cant be driven in for service either) the repair dealers make killing. my last (and very bitter) experience with ge repair center was they charged me $69.95 to have a tech come to home, and tell me the heating element was bad, period. no work was included in this charge. then he told me my dryer, that is 1 yr and 2 weeks old, is out of its one year warranty so to replace the heating element would be a total of $148.95. i told the tech that was a ludricrous charge for dryer that was only a year old, and only cost $220.
i sent him out with out any work performed, but still had to pay the $69.95 trip charge. i asked how its handled under a warranty call, and he said they bill ge the same rate to ge. dont really know if thats true or not....
is there some kind of dealer "union"? or some way to get fairly compensated for you time, gas, etc....? i strongly agree that if the manufacturer offers a warranty, they should fairly comp the dealers for doing the repair work.
i know the car comparison is not the best, but i have experience there. when you take you car in for a repair, the same amount is billed to either you, the consumer, or to the manufacturer, depending on whether its a warrantee issue. there are a set of manuals in the car biz that set standard times and costs for repairs. for example: if your drivers side power mirror quit on your 2002 ford explorer, the mitchel book say it take 1.2 hours of labor billed at an industry wide standard rate of $"x" per hour, and the part cost $"x".
are there any such guidlines for spa repair? if not, is that at all feasable to come up with some?
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Car dealers use a flat rate manual usually, for labor charges.
The dollars per hour of that time varies per dealer in our area, and most likely varies per region of the world.
When dealers do work for paying customers (non warranty) they charge labor and parts, both of which include a profit margin for the dealer, presumably.
I wouldn't assume that the dealers get their usual labor rates or parts markup from the factory for warranty work- I could be wrong, but it would seem to be a logistical nightmare for the people who process warranty claims. I'm guessing that car dealer probably get some reimbursement back from the factory, but probably not what they get from a cash paying customer.
Perhaps the reasons include dis-incenting the dealer from performing unecessary warranty work, or who knows.
Car dealers also don't make house calls, and spa repair tech have to. I doubt the factories would care to share the real story with us consumers, anyway.
I'm still PO'd that I have to pay someone to spend 5 seconds pulling an error code from my cars computer, when for no additional cost, they could put a cheap LCD panel on the dashboard which would allow us to know what is failing before we go into the shop.
OK, off my soapbox now.
brewman
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your shoes should be squeaky clean! ;D ;D
not to get to far off subject, but i totally agree with you on the trouble code reader "fee". FYI to every one... you can purchase plug in readers (very similar to the dealers) for less than $35.
back to hot tubs. i realize there is no simple solution to the warranty work issue, i am just making suggestions. being that the spa market is so small compared to the overall population, it may not be feasable to have a standard at all. who knows......
maybe a nominal trip charge is the answer... would $25 cover time and gas for you, as the dealer, to send one of your employees out to a customers house? as i consumer i could live with that, disclosed up front of course. from what i have read here, some dealers already do that. the maker would then pay you for the actual repair work done.
anyone ??? your thoughts??
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kent,
where can you get those readers for that price?
mike
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i got mine at harbor freight tools. if you dont have a local store look at harborfreight.com and search for universal code reader. i got mine a couple years ago, but price shouldn't have changed much.....
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Thanks for that tip. Our vehicles are coming out of warranty soon, and it would be nice to have such a tool.
I still don't like the idea that the code is in my car's computer but I have to pay find out what it is.
Brewman