Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Kelley on September 16, 2004, 10:18:39 am
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What are the pro's and con's of a 24 hour circ pump. Do they really make a difference? How loud are they as my spa will be out side the bedroom.
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On the spas I have looked at, I cound not hear the circualtor pump at all. It should be a much smaller pump than the pumps used for the jets and should not be a problem for you.
But what do I know, my tubs isn't here yet, maybe next week.
Jonathan
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Both systems are perfectly fine but if sound is an issue circ pumps are a big improvement over having a 2-speed pump on for filtering/heating as circ pumps are so quiet you won't know they're on. Circ pumps also allow you to produce ozone 24/7.
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If noise is a consern, some tubs are louder than others. For example The Coleman 470D in my store has dual 4.8bHP/2.5 HP pumps. When on high spped the water noise is much louder than the pumps. In fact I would GUESS that one pump on low is less than 5db louder than the circ pump on the D-1 Lotus Bay 5 feet away.
Beyond that I would say SpaTech has the answer to your question.
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On my Coleman, I cannot tell unless I walk up to the spa and listen real carefully to see if the filter cycle is on.
It is that quiet. Non issue.
Can't knock a 24 hour pump cuz I haven't seen em but the talk is that they do tend to wear out early plus their efficiency in suction leaves something to be desired.
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here is a previous topic that had some discussion about circ pumps.
It's full of info - possibly more than you care to know...
Circulation Pump - are they truly a cost saver (http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1088604738;start=)
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On my Coleman, I cannot tell unless I walk up to the spa and listen real carefully to see if the filter cycle is on.
It is that quiet. Non issue.
Can't knock a 24 hour pump cuz I haven't seen em but the talk is that they do tend to wear out early plus their efficiency in suction leaves something to be desired.
24 hour circ pumps do not wear out quickly, and even if they did they are inexpensive to replace. A huge, very expensive two speed jet pump that runs 70 times more because it is used to provide circulation for filtration and heating will undoubtedly wear out more quickly than its counterpart in a spa equipped with a 24 hr circ pump; which only runs when the spa is being used.
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Circ pumps also allow you to produce ozone 24/7.
This is what I think is the biggest advantage.
Ours is quiet as well so we don't notice it running. We still use four 60 minute filtration cycles a day even though we have the 24 hour circ pump.
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There is no advantage for small 24hr pump:
They do not save money.
They filter much less water which equates to less turn over.
Noise is not an issue if the spa is built properly.
Wait a minute what I am saying there is a big advantage for the silly little pumps, they make me lots of money. So keep them coming HS, Sundance, D-1...
Gary
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There is no advantage for small 24hr pump.
Are you saying that there is NO advantage to having an ozonator run 24 hours a day vs only during the filtration cycles?
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There is probably no advantage as far as filtering goes, unless you have a very fine, low flow filter such as the micro clean filter SD (and others now) uses. For ozone and heating, my preference is the 24 hour circ pump. I also like the idea of constant water circulation.
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There is no advantage for small 24hr pump:
They do not save money.
They filter much less water which equates to less turn over.
Noise is not an issue if the spa is built properly.
Wait a minute what I am saying there is a big advantage for the silly little pumps, they make me lots of money. So keep them coming HS, Sundance, D-1...
Gary
"NO advantage?" "SILLY little pumps?"
Hmmmmm.
OK, try this. Turn off the power to your spa for 3 days after you use it heavily one weekend (make sure it's WARM weather). Add any chemicals you normally would when not using it.
After these 3 days, see what the water looks like and THEN tell me circ pumps are "silly."
BTW, please don't waste my time with discussion on "low power setting" pump motors coming on for 15 minutes twice a day to "filter" the water in an $8,000 tub.
Just what IS he saying?
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I do not miss 24/7 ozonization as my water is and has always been crystal clear. Don't let people tell you your water needs ozonization 24/7.
Also on a side note, it would seem that your ozonater will wear out prematurely if it's constantly running.
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I do not miss 24/7 ozonization as my water is and has always been crystal clear. Don't let people tell you your water needs ozonization 24/7.
Also on a side note, it would seem that your ozonater will wear out prematurely if it's constantly running.
You don't NEED ozone 24/7, but it is a plus when compared to having ozone on 6-8 hours/day.
I think the logic that having the ozone on 24/7 lessens its life is silly. With that logic you might as well not have ozone at all as that way it can never fail.
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I think the logic that having the ozone on 24/7 lessens its life is silly. With that logic you might as well not have ozone at all as that way it can never fail.
Good point
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I was making that point as a previous poster stated that my pumps will wear out faster since they are used in the filtration cycle. So with that logic, so will an ozonator that's running all the time versus 6 to 8 hours a day.
So who's making the good points here??
You full foaming, wood building, 24hour circ pump cronies really ought to step back and look at yourselves. It just scares the hell out of you all when another point of view or technology is introduced.
You must all be narrow minded Bush lovers too!!! :)
Remember vote Republican or die from the terrorists.
Sheesh!
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WOW! I was surprised to see this topic as heated as the foam issue.
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You don't NEED ozone 24/7, but it is a plus when compared to having ozone on 6-8 hours/day.
everybody Hold on - here we go again... ::)
It must be a plus to put shock in 24/7 as well...
Data! Show me the data.
Kelley, if you are buying a quality, well engineered tub from a reputable manufacturer then whether or not it has a 24 hour circ pump makes absolutely no pertinent difference; It should not be a deciding factor.
Pros:
- "24 hour" filtration at low volume
- "24 hour" ozonation
- an additional pump
Cons:
- "24 hour" filtration at low volume
- "24 hour" ozonation
- an additional pump
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It must be a plus to put shock in 24/7 as well...
Data! Show me the data.
DATA, I don't need no stinkin' data!!
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24 hour circ pumps do not wear out quickly, and even if they did they are inexpensive to replace. A huge, very expensive two speed jet pump that runs 70 times more because it is used to provide circulation for filtration and heating will undoubtedly wear out more quickly than its counterpart in a spa equipped with a 24 hr circ pump; which only runs when the spa is being used.
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Yes the smaller 24 hour circ most certainly wear out quicker...ask any tech...I do not think there is any real cost saving with them in regards to energy consummation as well....the simple truth about them is that when spas were first built there were no 2 speed pumps at that time that made economical sense so they went with the smaller almost fish aquarium pump for circulating....the advantages of todays 2 speed pumps are high flow filtering with minimal energy costs..the noise if it is a well built spa is hardly noticable......
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The only knock I have on 2-speed pumps is they fail much more often than single speed pumps.
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Its not like 2 speed pumps or circulation pumps are new. The debate rages on. I am certain when cordless drills came out, drill users debated the pros and cons and likely still do to this day. Both have there advantages and disadvantages.
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Hi Kelly! I can't answer the pros/cons as far as wearing out etc. But while the boys continue that argument in the next room, I can answer the noise question for HotSpring:
I'm a newbie, 6 week old HS Vanguard w/ozone. You cannot hear the 24 hour circ. pump. To double check, I just walked outside - I heard the crickets & I heard the AC unit around the corner on the side of our house, but could not hear the tub pump. I put my ear 1" from the equip. cabinet cover and still could not hear the pump. I lifted the cover to check - yep, it's running. The HotSpring circ. pump is silent. Good luck and keep us posted on your hunt & purchase!
Stars
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Hey, all the manufacturers should go the Beachcomber route and put in BIG circulation pumps to eliminate this problem!
Best of both worlds, no little circ pump and 24 hour filtration!
I e-mailed Emerald about the 24 hour circ pump and they quoted the failure rate as the reason they don't use it.
Now as far as the ozone - do all tubs have a contact chamber? I was under the impression that some don't.
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Viny are you suggesting Bigger is Better? ;)
Funny how Beachcomber preaches that bigger/more is not nescarily better and then turn around and suggest that their circ pump is better because of its size.
Most manufacturers do not have the room in the "dog-house" for a circ pump that size.
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Here I am again...
This is Kelley's husband.
As empolgation said show me data....
Well....were's the data?
Gimme responses to these statements :D
Big pumps run short time draw big amps
Little pump run long time draw little amps
Amps x time = $
Ozone in contact with water 24/7 is better than ozone in contact with water 4x30min. / day.
All that ozone can possibly do is REDUCE the amount of chemicals required to maintain that sparkling clear water.
Pumps can be made to run 24/7 with a long life span.
I need to have a beer while actually sitting in a hot tub and NOT just talking about hot tubs!!!
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Ozone in contact with water 24/7 is better than ozone in contact with water 4x30min. / day.
All that ozone can possibly do is REDUCE the amount of chemicals required to maintain that sparkling clear water.
I would say these are both true statements. It just makes sense to me that an ozonator running 24 hours a day will be more effective than one running only 2 or 4 hours a day.
As for reducing chemicals, this is totally true. We use Bromine and we only have to keep our level at around 1ppm with the ozonator. It's nice, no chemical smell and it's easier on your skin. (cheaper too) ;)
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everybody Hold on - here we go again... ::)
It must be a plus to put shock in 24/7 as well...
Data! Show me the data.
Kelley, if you are buying a quality, well engineered tub from a reputable manufacturer then whether or not it has a 24 hour circ pump makes absolutely no pertinent difference; It should not be a deciding factor.
Exactly. There is no data in *either* direction. There are, I believe, ISO standards for the number of times the water in a tub should be recycled (I think). 24/7 circ pumps don't turn the water over enough to meet them. I think it is something like 40-50 times a day.
My personal opinion, which is certainly not data, is that my Grandee has a 24/7 pump. We check sanitation, ph, etc.. usually daily, sometimes we forget and do it every 3 days or so. We drop the chemicals in, hit the clean button, and pump 1 goes on for 30 minutes. We have crystal clear water.
Once we *totally* forgot about the tub and added no chemicals and no jet pumps for something like 6 days. The water got a greenish hue. We shocked, ran the pumps for about 2 hours, and it cleared up the same evening.
Did the 24/7 pump hurt or help any of that? Who knows. As stated above, quality, well engineered tubs should be the focus and the use or lack of a 24/7 circ pump, in a vacuum, will not help you narrow down tubs.
-Ed
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Exactly. There is no data in *either* direction. There are, I believe, ISO standards for the number of times the water in a tub should be recycled (I think). 24/7 circ pumps don't turn the water over enough to meet them. I think it is something like 40-50 times a day.
Actually, I believe this also has to do with filtration quality and square footage of filtration as well. It may be possible that an efficient and large filtration system will require less passes of water through it to get the same results as a less efficient filtration system gets with higher volumes of water through it.
Chances are filtration systems and cleaning cycles are a matched pair.
-Ed
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Yes the smaller 24 hour circ most certainly wear out quicker...ask any tech...I do not think there is any real cost saving with them in regards to energy consummation as well....the simple truth about them is that when spas were first built there were no 2 speed pumps at that time that made economical sense so they went with the smaller almost fish aquarium pump for circulating....the advantages of todays 2 speed pumps are high flow filtering with minimal energy costs..the noise if it is a well built spa is hardly noticable......
Two speed pump were around way be the introduction to 24/7 pumps. The only reason they came into the hot tub world was only one reason, NOISE. All the other reason stated are just marketing plows.
Gary
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Hey HotTubMan BIGGER is better but only when you don't know how to utilize something smaller ! :o
I do have real questions for you though - I dry tested a 480 (? - no lounger) and I didn't fit under one of the neck jet seats. Are the two seats different sizes? Are there different therapy jets in the seats? I emailed Coleman and they never got back to me - Thanks.
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Yeah Vinny. You should have sat in the other one too. It is made for a bigger person. I have to slouch quite a bit to fit in the shorter one, but it's a perfect fit for my girl and others who are 5'9" or shorter. The big one could be a bit taller for my tastes but it works well. The only thing I hate about these therapy seats is that the top jets (neck jets) don't have jack for pressure. They're worthless in my opinion. Listening MAXX????
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Thanks Rick,
I had to do a double take (or is that a double sit) when I got into the smaller seat. I'm 6 feet tall so I thought that this was unusual not to fit into the seat.
Unfortunately, the local Coleman dealer really didn't know much about spas so I had no one to talk to there. I thought the Coleman was a nice product at a pretty good price but the lack of knowledge at the dealer and the fact that Coleman never emailed me back made me stop considering them.
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Rick, I agree on all points. I also told MAXX the same thing about the neck jets. I have been in tubs with more and less pressure over all. The Coleman gives great massage, but you are 100% right on the neck jets.
Vinny;
Height isn't everything either. I am 6'2"+ and I fit well in the deeper seat. I have seen taller individuals fit just as well and individuals my height fit better in the shorter seat. Reason? Some have longer legs, others have longer bodies.
HTMan
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You guys seem to have lost the plot !
We were suposed to be helping with the circ pumps ?
Anyway I have had dealings with both 24 hour and 2 speed ....
They should both give you the same turnover and cleaning cleaning results The only advantages I could find is that the 24 hour pumps are quieter and on some tubs it means that you do not have to turn the air on / off each time you use the tub , because it is a seperate pipe circuit.
The only disadvantage is that the 24 hour pumps don't last as long as the two speed ones ....
at the end of the day I don't really think this should be much of a consideration when purchasing a new tub ... both systems work well. ::)
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Sorry about changing the thread.
I thought that even with 24 hour circ pumps the therapy pump(s) come on as well in some (all) manufacturers, either for clearing out the pipes or for additional filtration. The only difference would be how long they stay on, 5 min vs 5 hours twice a day, so you still have the main pumps coming on but only for shorter duration.
If the main pump comes on for 10 min a day and that pump can move 100 gal/ min (is this an accurate figure) you're filtering the water 2 to 5 times during that cycle, which helps the circ pump do its job
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Data Huh?
OK, here's some "data."
My Artesian Piper Glen was "plugged in" and brought to operating temperature on November 17th, 1999. It was moved on March 12th, 2004, and brought back "on-line" on April 21st, 2004. I lost power during Hurricane Isabel (September 2003) for 21 days and didn't hook up my generator to the tub (tough choice, that one...).
The Piper Glen uses a small circulation pump and ozonator system. Although the spa has an "economy mode" option, I've NEVER used it. The circulation pump, ozonator system and heater run 24 hours/day. On average, I use the tub 30 minutes a day, occasionally more, sometimes less. The temperature setting is always 104 degrees, summer and winter. Based on almost 5 years experience with the tub, utility costs vary between $30 and $40 monthly (lower in summer, higher in winter).
Using the dates of use as the basis of a pump hour calculation, my circ pump and ozonator system have been running almost continuously (as of the date of this post) for approximately 1,709 days. This means each component has roughly 41,016 hours of operating time. In this entire time, they have never failed or had "issues."
Why do I like circ pumps?
The circ pump on my tub has a flow rate of 248 GPH. This means the water volume of my tub is completely filtered every 2 hours. Water filtration is what makes spa water clear, especially for heavy use tubs. I often have guests over during the evening, with the tub getting "cloudy" by 11 PM. After adding chemicals with clarifiers and letting the circ pump work at night, the tub is crystal by morning. The circ pump filter (the 1999 Piper Glen uses 3 canister filters, with one dedicated to the circ pump, ozonator and heater circuit, the other two dedicated to the pumps) gets the most dirty, requiring cleaning every 3 days.
I let my circ pump always run for a very simple reason. Electrical motors experience most problems and failures as a result of STARTING. Starting is the point of peak load with the greatest amount of strain being placed on the motor and components. This is why I let the circ pump run continuously and also why I haven't experienced problems. THINK about that if you have been told by sales people that larger spa pump motors can be used regularly for filtration.
The BOTTOM line is that in 5 years I've had NO failures, my water is clear and my energy costs are LOW.
Hope ya'll like my "data."
Peace and Hot Water....
Drewski
:D
P.S.: Undoubtedly after posting this, my circ pump will fail. If that happens, I’ll let you know.
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Data Huh?
Why do I like circ pumps?
The circ pump on my tub has a flow rate of 248 GPH. This means the water volume of my tub is completely filtered every 2 hours. Water filtration is what makes spa water clear, especially for heavy use tubs. I often have guests over during the evening, with the tub getting "cloudy" by 11 PM. After adding chemicals with clarifiers and letting the circ pump work at night, the tub is crystal by morning. The circ pump filter (the 1999 Piper Glen uses 3 canister filters, with one dedicated to the circ pump, ozonator and heater circuit, the other two dedicated to the pumps) gets the most dirty, requiring cleaning every 3 days.
Yes and that is the bigger argument 2 speed pumps hi flow filtering or low flow circ pumps....at 248ph you are filtering 5952 gallons a day or turning over the water in the tub roughly 10 times where in high flow system (low speed of the 2 speed pump it turns over roughly 25,000 gallons a day or about 50 times for your spa....
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yes, and there are brands such as Caldera and Dimension One that utilize not only the 24 hr Circulation pump, but also utilize the jet pumps for 2 filter cycles a day. Is this overkill???? Some might say it is, but a tiny circ pump can't pull finer particles that may sink to the bottom of the tub. This is where the 2 "high Flow" filter cycles aid in cleaning the water.
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T.U.O made a good point saying that 2 speed pumps have a higher rate of failure. It may be comparable to the stop and go effect on car engines... it makes a lot of sense to me ;)
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yes, and there are brands such as Caldera and Dimension One that utilize not only the 24 hr Circulation pump, but also utilize the jet pumps for 2 filter cycles a day. Is this overkill???? Some might say it is, but a tiny circ pump can't pull finer particles that may sink to the bottom of the tub. This is where the 2 "high Flow" filter cycles aid in cleaning the water.
So how many tubs that have a 24 hr circ pump also use a 2-speed pump to "aid in cleaning the water"?
If a system with a 24 hr circ pump needs the 2 speed pump then what is the real advantage of having a 24 hr circ pump? You still get the noise of the 2 speed pump - you still get the on/off of your 2 speed pump ??? It won't be long before a brand comes out with the "super ultra extra clean system" with three 24 hour circ pumps and a 3 speed pump in a tub, it looks like they would sell big.
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So how many tubs that have a 24 hr circ pump also use a 2-speed pump to "aid in cleaning the water"?
If a system with a 24 hr circ pump needs the 2 speed pump then what is the real advantage of having a 24 hr circ pump?
My LSX utilizes a circ pump in conjunction (as most, I would guess) with continuous ozone and heat as needed (the ozone shuts down if any therapy pumps are switched on and doesn't resume until 1 hour after all therapy pumps are off.) Low speed of pump #1 filters through the second filter set (circ pump uses the first of two filter sets) twice a day for 2 hours for a total of 4 hours. This can be adjusted, if needed. One nice advantage of this supplementary filtering by pump #1 is the ability to initiate extra filtering at any time my switching pump #1 on low speed which will time out after 2 hours as opposed to the other pumps which time out after 15 minutes (also adjustable). The high speed setting for pump #1 also timeouts at 15 minutes. All speeds of all therapy pumps are available at all times.
So, as I see it, the advantages for the 24 hr. circ pump is to supply continual ozone and to supply heat as needed without starting/stopping a therapy pump. The advantage to the supplemental therapy pump filtration is the ability to easily call for supplemental filtering, if needed, plus the added filtration twice a day.
8)
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Sundance has the circ. pump and has four filter cycles. The default is 4 times a day, 30 minutes each. One of the other good reasons for a circ. pump is continuous water movement. It is a lot easier for stuff to grow in stagnant water than in water that is constantly moving.
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Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but Drewski's reply was the only hit I got on a search for Piper Glen electricity costs....
I've had mine for 6-8 months now, I run it in regular mode at 103 degrees. I'm in MA, and I use the tub sparingly (average once a week!). My electric bill has gone up a cool $100 a month with the tub. Based on what I've seen on the boards, and in talking to dealers and other owners, this seems way out of line. Is it?
Tub is wired 220V, 50A breaker. I'm puzzled. Any help?
???
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Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but Drewski's reply was the only hit I got on a search for Piper Glen electricity costs....
I've had mine for 6-8 months now, I run it in regular mode at 103 degrees. I'm in MA, and I use the tub sparingly (average once a week!). My electric bill has gone up a cool $100 a month with the tub. Based on what I've seen on the boards, and in talking to dealers and other owners, this seems way out of line. Is it?
Tub is wired 220V, 50A breaker. I'm puzzled. Any help?
???
Ed,
We have a number of customers that own the Piper Glen spa here in Ontario Canada and they all report operating cost for this last winter about $30- $40 per month, using the spa 5 - 7 times per week 30-45 minutes per use.
$100 a month is more than it should be with the use you described.
PM me if I can be of any help.
John
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That does seem excessively high for any most any "WELL MADE" spa outside of a swim type spa...you might want to put a meter on it and see what its actual draw is...
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I'm with Mendo on this one. Often, owners "guess" their usage and are waaaaaaaaay out.
I would bet that you would be closer to the $30 or $40 per month range unless something was drastically wrong with the pak/motor.
Steve
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Circ pumps, were used back before the computer programmed cycles, or they used those hoky timers with the teeth you had to pull out to make time cycles, I don't think anyone could figure those stupid things out.
Most FF tubs use circ pumps, most TP tubs use 2 speed pumps for filtering? The biggest reason for this is how the tubs are built, if there were signicant cost or filtering difference in the to everyone would change to one or the other. I think both provide great filtering, and similar cost for filtering.
The reason for different styles of filtering, is how the tubs are built. TP tubs have their equipment inside the insulation, and use heat from pump motors as warm air insulation. Bigger pumps produce more heat even on low speed. And in cold weather the pump can sit idle between filtering modes, without the threat of freezing. It is more effective in that style of tub!!
FF tubs put their equipment on the outside of the insulation, and vent the compartment, and don't need to use the heat producted by running a larger pump.
Also, in extreme cold equipment on the outside of the insulation is more vulnerable to the cold, if there pumps sat idle for 6 to 8 hours between filter cycles the ice could begin to for in the pipes or wet end of the pumps. The continious running of the circ pump, puts off heat in the small equipment space to protect the other equipment inside.
It doesn't make sense for FF tubs not to run circ pumps. It works better for their design, and now with ozone it is tied in to the circ pump and is a bonus to circ pumps.
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...I would bet that you would be closer to the $30 or $40 per month range ....
Steve
How much would you like to bet?
For 3 years, electric bills ranged $70-85/month. Install the tub, last 8 months have been a low of $163 to a high of $187. No other new appliances introduced.
Yeah, I'll take a piece of that action, bring it on. Offset some of my energy bills!
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Big Ed,
You do need to meter your spa to get an accurate reading and than you will know if there is a problem or not with your spa ...if it is running normal you will not have that kind of a bill unless you were using the spa excessively....
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Also, make sure that your cover fits properly. If it is allowing heat loss, your heater will come on excessively.
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You've got 2 choices here Big_Ed.
Get the spa metered to get an accurate amp draw or sell the damn thing and get a decent tub that should cost you a buck a day to operate!
If what you're saying is true and you use this tub maybe once a week, and the cost to run it is $80 or $100....it's time to shut 'er down! That's ridiculous and far from the industry average and what a quality tub should be operating at.
Steve
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Big Ed-
Out of curiousity, what is the rate you pay for electricity?
Brewman
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I agree with the folks who say you need to meter. I have had many folks come in claiming that the spa 'I sold them' is using far too much power.
One of them borrowed a portable meter - and put it on the 'fridge in the garage. The thing was dying, and taking a lot of their money with it. They got rid of the old 'fridge, and their bill dropped to below what it was before the tub showed up.
Another customer had to have the meter wired in: 220 hardwired tub. They found that the tub was using less than I had promised, and that the kids had changed the settings on the home thermostats to run the AC all day during a warm spell.
I have had customers who put the tub in just as the weather turned cool (doesn't get all that cold around here) and the bill went up over the previous few months. They needed to compare to last year - but...
Still others have been caught off-guard by an increse in power rates ; so be sure to compare the number of KWH used, not just dollar amount on the bill. I don't know many people who are paying the same per-unit rate this year as they paid last year. So the fact that your dollar amount is higher doesn't mean you are using that much more power over last year.
And finally, if none of this helps, do as Steve said.
:)
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How much would you like to bet?
For 3 years, electric bills ranged $70-85/month. Install the tub, last 8 months have been a low of $163 to a high of $187. No other new appliances introduced.
Yeah, I'll take a piece of that action, bring it on. Offset some of my energy bills!
I guess you have taken into account that all other things are equal:
ie:
1)price of electricity
2)usage by you and all other family members of everything electric
3)weather has beeen constant?