Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Russ on March 24, 2005, 08:55:01 pm
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How come it seems like I never have any chlorine in my tub?
No, I don't have too much for the test kit to see.. ???
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Russ, how are you using your chlor, and is the tub new
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tub is 3 months old.. I use the granules after we get out.
Tomorrow I'll ceheck it and there won't be any
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Russ, what I have found works really well for people, is to use the granular (4 to 5 oz) 2 times a week. Just to keep a base of chlor in the water. Use a non-chlor shock after use. When you are only relying on a granular chlor, you have to keep a higher ppm of chlor in the water consistantly, which is hard to do with out a floater or chlorinator. The non chlor shock will activate the chlor that is in the water, the reason you put it in when you get out is that it boost the chlor already present in the water kills off the bacteria from you being in the tub. This way you don't have to keep a high level of active chlor in the water (espacially while you are using the tub).
Let me now how that works, I get alot of people in hte store with the same problem only using a granular.
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Sta - What are you talking about? Chroline disapates. BROMINE can be re-activatred. As long as the water is clear, the low levels of Chlorine are OK (for short periods of time). I personally prefer soaking in water that is not overly hlorinated. It's more like flaoting in a lake than in a pool. Get out, throw granuals in. Levels go high cleaning up the residual left behind by our bodies. You could always throw a second does in the "morning after" if you want to maintain a low level. Low levels of chlorine also help you cover last longer. I HATE lifting a cover and smelling that heavy chlorine smell. That's why I have an ozontaor in mine.
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Russ,
Try putting just a touch more in when you get out. About a tablespoon for every 300 gallons.
If that ends up with too much chlorine the next morning, you can always cut back a bit.
The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble.
I think Stabone may have been talking about Bromine - his advice doesn't seem to work with your program though.
:)
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Test your water 15 minutes after you add chlorine. If you dont see any chlorine then, then you have a problem and will need to add more.
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First, do you have ozone?
If you do then you won't have a residual of chlorine in the spa. If you are using the non-clor as well, start using that prior to getting into the spa and use chlorine after you get out, as well as chlor once a week. If you have ozone, you sanitize prior to getting in due to the short lifespan of residual ozone, (treating prior takes care of you while you are in the spa the chlorine after takes care of contaminates after you get out, and ozone maintains while the tub is not in use.)
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The answer to your question is that dichlor breaks down in a matter of hours at the elevated temperatures found in a hot tub. The hotter your water, the faster the dichlor disappears. The reason this is not a problem is that if you put dichlor in sufficient to have 3-5-ppm of free chlorine after each use, or every other day if the spa is not being used regularly, then the bacteria are killed and there is nothing in the water that could cause harm.
Regards,
Bill
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The answer to your question is that dichlor breaks down in a matter of hours at the elevated temperatures found in a hot tub. The hotter your water, the faster the dichlor disappears. The reason this is not a problem is that if you put dichlor in sufficient to have 3-5-ppm of free chlorine after each use, or every other day if the spa is not being used regularly, then the bacteria are killed and there is nothing in the water that could cause harm.
Regards,
Bill
Bill, we still have to know if he is using ozone or not, if yes then he may be using too much chlorine unecessarily. Otherwise, your statement is right on.
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>if he is using ozone or not, if yes then he may be using too much chlorine unecessarily.<
I am struggling for the relevancy. He has already stated that he has little to no free chlorine the next day. Based on that information, I don't understand why you think he may be using too much chlorine.
Also, ozone does not stay dissolved in the water for more than a few seconds. Therefore, it's effect is limited to the bacteria it may encounter essentially from the time it bubbles out of the bottom until the time it reaches the surface of the spa. As such ozone or no, a sanitizer is still required and in much the same concentration as would be the case without it.
Regards,
Bill
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>if he is using ozone or not, if yes then he may be using too much chlorine unecessarily.<
I am struggling for the relevancy. He has already stated that he has little to no free chlorine the next day. Based on that information, I don't understand why you think he may be using too much chlorine.
Also, ozone does not stay dissolved in the water for more than a few seconds. Therefore, it's effect is limited to the bacteria it may encounter essentially from the time it bubbles out of the bottom until the time it reaches the surface of the spa. As such ozone or no, a sanitizer is still required and in much the same concentration as would be the case without it.
Regards,
Bill
He can still be using unnecessary chlorine even if he has no reading. no reading because of ozone, if he has one. I can put 2 tbs of chlor in my spa 355 gal, and tomorrow have no reading (beacause of ozone). do I have to do that every day? No. That is over treating the spa. A sanitizer is definitly required, however only at the time of use is proper levels required from chlor or non chlor to protect you when your in the spa. As long as ph is ideal, no reason to have 3-5 ppm of chlor in the spa when your not in there. (That is if you have ozone)
After all, ozone is used to reduce the amount of sanitizer used, which is why i think he may be using too much chlorine.
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HOLY HOTTUB BATMAN :o
Didn't expect all this. I just expected a simple answer. Is that possible?
OK, I have Ozone.
Ph is currently at 7.2 -7.4 depends on strip or test kit
TA is about 120
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HOLY HOTTUB BATMAN :o
Didn't expect all this. I just expected a simple answer. Is that possible?
OK, I have Ozone.
Ph is currently at 7.2 -7.4 depends on strip or test kit
TA is about 120
Russ, ozone is eating your free chlorine every day, so when you treat it after use, you won't have a reading the next day. Thats ok! Just make sure that when you use the spa there is some sort of sanitizer in there, chlor or non clor. Ozone will do the rest. Sorry for the confusion, but having ozone or not shows exactly what is going on.
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Maybe I am a little ignorant on this, but I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.
The main issue is that the sanitizer level needs to be checked shortly after adding chlorine.
Remember, you are only sanitizing the tub, not sterilizing it. There will always be something for the chlorine and ozone to oxidize. As soon as the chlorine runs out, bacteria will start regrouping as the ozone alone cannot (in most cases) keep up with the demand. So check the water after 10-15 minutes of adding chlorine and make sure it gets up to the 3-5ppm range.
The ozone essentially makes it so you have to add less chlorine to get the spa to the correct level, but you still need to get the spa to 3-5ppm level.
As Chas said, "The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble. " --Perfect
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>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<
I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so. I think your advice is quite sound. 3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement. Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all. They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.
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Maybe I am a little ignorant on this, but I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.
The main issue is that the sanitizer level needs to be checked shortly after adding chlorine.
Remember, you are only sanitizing the tub, not sterilizing it. There will always be something for the chlorine and ozone to oxidize. As soon as the chlorine runs out, bacteria will start regrouping as the ozone alone cannot (in most cases) keep up with the demand. So check the water after 10-15 minutes of adding chlorine and make sure it gets up to the 3-5ppm range.
The ozone essentially makes it so you have to add less chlorine to get the spa to the correct level, but you still need to get the spa to 3-5ppm level.
As Chas said, "The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble. " --Perfect
Ok..this kind of tells me what I want to know.
To confuse myself even more....
what happens when I can not see a "barely readable amount"?
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Russ, ozone is eating your free chlorine every day
Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet! ;D
Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.
Steve
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Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet! ;D
Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.
Steve
:'( :'( :'(
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Maybe I am a little ignorant on this, but I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.
The main issue is that the sanitizer level needs to be checked shortly after adding chlorine.
Remember, you are only sanitizing the tub, not sterilizing it. There will always be something for the chlorine and ozone to oxidize. As soon as the chlorine runs out, bacteria will start regrouping as the ozone alone cannot (in most cases) keep up with the demand. So check the water after 10-15 minutes of adding chlorine and make sure it gets up to the 3-5ppm range.
The ozone essentially makes it so you have to add less chlorine to get the spa to the correct level, but you still need to get the spa to 3-5ppm level.
As Chas said, "The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble. " --Perfect
Maybe I'm ignorant to the fact, but ozone is doing the oxidizing while you are not using the spa 24 hrs a day. because of the introduction of dirts, oils, hair follicals, dead skin cells, etc... The only time that you need a residual of anything in the water is when you are using it. That's why you go away for a few weeks and come home to a clean spa when you have ozone. No bacteria growth, no algie. If someone used the spa when you were gone and didn't treat it, then the story would be different. And Ozone off gasses chlorine in a spa very quickly, hence no foul chlorine odor in the spa. Thats why there is no reading, not because he's not using enough chlorine. Ozone actually makes it more difficult to maintain 3-5 ppm of chlorine in a spa because of the off gassing. The reason you cut back on the total chlorine usage, is because you don't have to use as much as "often" not because it reaches 3-5 ppm quicker. Now as Chas said, having a small reading the following day is true if you are using straight chlorine, no ozone. Otherwise not necessary.
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>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<
I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so. I think your advice is quite sound. 3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement. Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all. They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.
ozone and chlorine do not interfere with each other, I never said that. ozone reduces the amount of chlorine necessary. I to have performed tens of thousands of water tests, as well as owned numerous spas with and without ozone, the difference in chlor use is astounding
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Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet! ;D
Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.
Steve
Sorry steve,
But ozone oxidizes "anything" it comes in contact with, amonias, organics, chemical compounds etc...
It takes the burden off of chlorine alowing for a smaller amount to provide the same job. I consider myself well versed in the chemical arena, and my information is hands on not off the internet. Again you ask 10 people a chemical ? and you get 10 different answers. Some need to go back to school if you think chlorine is not oxidized by ozone.
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PKUD, you said "Russ, ozone is eating your free chlorine every day." This implies to me, and I am sure many others, that the ozone is using up the free chlorine.
You need to get the chlorine level up to 3-5ppm to break the bacteria threshold. If there is only a small amount of bacteria in the water due to the ozone working, then it will take very little chlorine to bring it to 3-5ppm. But, you still need to get it to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa.
You say that the only time you need a residual in the spa is when you are using it. The whole reason for a residual is to keep the spa in check when you are not using it. Like you said, ozone is oxidizing when you are not in it. Unfortunately, due to the short half-life of ozone in spa water, oxidizing takes up most of the ozone. After it is done oxidizing, then it begins to act as a sanitizer. Most of the time, it never gets this chance.
What I am trying to do when I tell customers how to use chlorine, is to give them a routine that will work 99% of the time. When they get that down, they can back off on the chlorine a little at a time until they get to what works for them.
If you were to have 100 customers use their spa, get the chlorine level to 1ppm, and then leave the spa for 2 or more weeks relying only on ozone, I would bet money that over 75% of them would have some sort of biofilm problem.
When you rely on ozone, something you have no way of testing, you are asking for trouble.
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PKUD, you said "Russ, ozone is eating your free chlorine every day." This implies to me, and I am sure many others, that the ozone is using up the free chlorine.
You need to get the chlorine level up to 3-5ppm to break the bacteria threshold. If there is only a small amount of bacteria in the water due to the ozone working, then it will take very little chlorine to bring it to 3-5ppm. But, you still need to get it to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa.
You say that the only time you need a residual in the spa is when you are using it. The whole reason for a residual is to keep the spa in check when you are not using it. Like you said, ozone is oxidizing when you are not in it. Unfortunately, due to the short half-life of ozone in spa water, oxidizing takes up most of the ozone. After it is done oxidizing, then it begins to act as a sanitizer. Most of the time, it never gets this chance.
What I am trying to do when I tell customers how to use chlorine, is to give them a routine that will work 99% of the time. When they get that down, they can back off on the chlorine a little at a time until they get to what works for them.
If you were to have 100 customers use their spa, get the chlorine level to 1ppm, and then leave the spa for 2 or more weeks relying only on ozone, I would bet money that over 75% of them would have some sort of biofilm problem.
When you rely on ozone, something you have no way of testing, you are asking for trouble.
serjical,
that is what i am implying, ozone will oxidize clorine in the spa. that may be why russ has no reading the next day. take that back, that is why russ has no reading. So russ, hows about we throw in 2 1/2 gallons of liqid bleach and then balance out your boosted ph levels with a 1/2 gal of muratic acid :o Joking. Russ's original ? Why don't I have a reading the next day? Ozone has oxidized it. The only other reason would be he is using way to little, or his total disolved solids are way too high, drain, clean, re-fill.
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>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<
I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so. I think your advice is quite sound. 3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement. Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all. They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.
"Ozone has nothing to do with di-chlor at all"
not true by any means. If ozone has no bearing on your use of di-clor then why spend 3-4 hundred on one? That is the whole reason you have ozone. It reduces the amount of chemicals required. Pull your ozone off your spa and watch the amount of chlorine required rise substatially. Especially on your envoy. Have that spa in my showroom occasionally with and without ozone filled with water, and the required chlorine use is drastically different.
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There is no way to tell if ozone is oxidizing it. That is the problem. The main point is that if there is no chlorine in the spa, there is no sanitizer.
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let's make this easy. The chlorine odor is produced by CHLORAMINES, which are the by-products of chlorine reacting with ammonia or if you will the wastes that get into the spa. i.e. Sweat, and otherbody oils. Ozone is strictly an oxidizer. Oxidation gets rid of chloramines. "Shocking" and Super-Chlorinating a spa/pool helps to oxidize off the wastes/chloramines. Ozone helps to reduce the demand of for sanitizer b/c it constantly oxidizes wastes and chloramines in the spa. so in a sense......ozone eats (breaks down) chloramines.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1, Caldera & Nordic Spas Dealer
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Russ's original ? Why don't I have a reading the next day? Ozone has oxidized it. The only other reason would be he is using way to little, or his total disolved solids are way too high, drain, clean, re-fill.
AH HA!!!!!!!
Potential reasons. Thats what I need to hear.
So for a 400 gallon tub, used 3-5 times a week, how much sanitizer should be put in?...roughly speaking.
And... How does one know the dissolved solids are way too high?
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AH HA!!!!!!!
Potential reasons. Thats what I need to hear.
So for a 400 gallon tub, used 3-5 times a week, how much sanitizer should be put in?...roughly speaking.
And... How does one know the dissolved solids are way too high?
Bring your water in to get tested #1. (For TDS) less than 2500 ppm should be ok
Low ph 7.2or less, chlorine more active and will dissipate quicker. (Could also be a reason)
Again, your chlorine situation sounds very normal with ozone. But I frey to say without everone else jumping down my throat, but if you want loads of chlorine in the spa then 2 to 3 tbs after each use and repeat shock once a week. (I repeat, I think that is way too much and defeats the purpose of your ozone)
Just to reiterate for some who are misinformed; ozone offgassing (little bubbles leaving the spa takes chlorine with it when it leaves, which is a major reason why chlorine residuals don't show the next day or the next, unless you load the spa with chlorine.
Hope that helps russ
ps: chlorine does its job in about 35-40 seconds, ozone is on contact.
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let's make this easy. The chlorine odor is produced by CHLORAMINES, which are the by-products of chlorine reacting with ammonia or if you will the wastes that get into the spa. i.e. Sweat, and otherbody oils. Ozone is strictly an oxidizer. Oxidation gets rid of chloramines. "Shocking" and Super-Chlorinating a spa/pool helps to oxidize off the wastes/chloramines. Ozone helps to reduce the demand of for sanitizer b/c it constantly oxidizes wastes and chloramines in the spa. so in a sense......ozone eats (breaks down) chloramines.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1, Caldera & Nordic Spas Dealer
Thank you Jason, I was beginning to think I was from the island of misfit toys. ;D
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Russ, take a simple approach to your chemical program, these guys must record the chemical school class every year, and listen to it on their way to work.
If you have ozone, and as you can tell from this thread no one really knows how effective ozone is or how it affects your chemicals. If your water is clear, no bad odors, and feels fresh and clean clean. And you are not getting readings on chlor, then the mix of your ozone and the amount of chlor you are using is working. If the water is not clear, and feels funky, smells funky, it is funky. Just add more chlor, after use.
Also, relating to my first post, unlike most of the programed robots on this board that get off in their den or office at night from using big words on this board. I to have sat in the chemical classes, and public pool and spa certification classes. But I also try to keep things as simple as possible for customers, for spa care. That is one of the biggest concerns that people about owning a pool or spa.
Russ, just add more. When a tub is new the water is untreated, and the bather loads are high. It is not un usual for people to have your problem the first few months.
In a spa, where the water is not exposed to UV rays, which really burns off chlor fast. There is still existing chlor in the water, non chlor shocks don't need much chlor to work off. I am aware, of the difference in bromine and chlorine Chas, but thank you anyway.
I have had good luck with using non chlorine shocks with granular in spas. Much like you use a bromine salt and non chlorine shock. 2 or 3 times a week use a granular after use, and the rest use a non chlorine shock after use. To whoever said, they like to use a tub with low ppm of chlorine, that is why I experimented with this. To keep ppm of chlorine as low as possible. Instead of constantly adding more granular. Even if it is not needed, plus I find non chlor shock make tha water crystal clear and chlor odor down. I have got alot of good feed back from customers that had been using only granular for years in their tubs.
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"Russ, take a simple approach to your chemical program, these guys must record the chemical school class every year, and listen to it on their way to work."
It's just an audio book called the superchlorination discombobulation part 2 ;D
I agree, keep it simple
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OK - now that we have that cleared up, let's take on Full Foam vs. Thermal Pane !!
;)
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OK - now that we have that cleared up, let's take on Full Foam vs. Thermal Pane !!
;)
Or wait, UL vs ETL :D