Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jsimo7 on March 14, 2005, 08:54:25 pm
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Hi Is 100% filteration like Hot Springs has really needed.? The Hot springs salesperson says it is, and other brand salespeople say it is not that important. Hot Springs says thier 24hr pump will filter the water 12 times per day and the main pumps draw all water through the filters. How important is that?? Thanks for the help!!
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For the most part, every major tub manufacturer has a niche that they advertise - that is Hot Springs niche. Take a look at the post that Steve started about the 2 things about the manufacture you represent.
I bought an Artesian and it's circ pump will cycle 400 gallons of water approx 40 times a day and Beachcomber has a pump called a hush pump that filters even more. A lot of tubs don't have a circ pump at all.
When it comes to clean water, I think it's safe to say that all the major manufacturers will provide you with clean water as long as you follow the correct guidelines - whatever that may be for the manufacturer.
Pick a tub on what YOU like and don't sweat the things like filtration too much.
Just my 2 cents!
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Vinny is bang on! Welcome to marketing 101. ;)
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Most spas with more than one or two pumps have jet pumps that draw water from suctions in the bottom of the tub and pump the water directly back to the jets.
Most all tubs filter 100% of the water multiple times each day through the circulation/filtration pump. This is important.
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For the most part, every major tub manufacturer has a niche that they advertise - that is Hot Springs niche. Take a look at the post that Steve started about the 2 things about the manufacture you represent.
I bought an Artesian and it's circ pump will cycle 400 gallons of water approx 40 times a day and Beachcomber has a pump called a hush pump that filters even more. A lot of tubs don't have a circ pump at all.
When it comes to clean water, I think it's safe to say that all the major manufacturers will provide you with clean water as long as you follow the correct guidelines - whatever that may be for the manufacturer.
Pick a tub on what YOU like and don't sweat the things like filtration too much.
Just my 2 cents!
Jeepers Vinny, I'd say that's gotta be at least 3 or 4 cents for that.
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I've had several different brands of hot tubs and have noticed that in my hot springs with 100% filtration I don't need clarifiers, I don't have scum lines, and there is almost no scrubbing or cleaning the shell when i drain and refill. 100% filtration probably isn't needed if the spas you sell don't have it
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Vinny is bang on! Welcome to marketing 101. ;)
and what, exactly does "bang on" mean?
must be another obscure Canadian phrase eh?
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Bang on, Jeepers, dig out those old cliches? Hottest thing since sliced bread or steel tipped shoe laces?
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Most spas with more than one or two pumps have jet pumps that draw water from suctions in the bottom of the tub and pump the water directly back to the jets.
I will disagree. Since HotSpring sells more tubs than any other maker, and since HotSpring draws 100% of the water it moves through a filter before moving it, it would be fair to say that MOST spas do not bypass the filters as you have discribed. It would also be fair to say that most brand do, because I know of only two or three which do what HotSpring does.
Most all tubs filter 100% of the water multiple times each day through the circulation/filtration pump. This is important.
Show me one, including HotSpring. To do this, the tub would have to have some method to taking the water out, perhaps send it to a holding tank or whatever, filtering it and then returning it to the tub. Otherwise you can only say that some tubs filter an amount of water equal to the volume of water they hold: For example if a tub can filter 500 gallons an hour and it holds 500 gallons, you could say that it filters an amount of water euqal to its volume every hour.
HotSpring only claims that it's tubs filter 100% of the water that they move. That means that when your circ pump is running (round the clock) all of it's water is filtered. And when your jet pump(s) is running, all of it's water is also filtered.
This simply means that a HotSpring spa can do in 10 minutes what bypass spas will take an hour to do.
Is it important? It tends to make a spa easier to keep clean and clear.
(http://www.hotspring.com/Spas_Built_Last/gifs/pumps_filters.gif)
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My experience as a consumer is that it does not really make any difference as long as you follow the manufacturer's recommendations for water treatment and maintenance. My last tub had one filter (Caldera) my present spa has 5 (HotSpring). Both have sparkling clean water.
Regards,
Bill
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I'm sure that regular maintenance will keep any spa clean and clear. That being said, I don't always do regular maintenance.
A few weeks back we left our HS completely unattended for 4 days, and had not been in the tub for about 6-7 days. Lifting the cover and expecting the worst, the water was crystal clear, and we are nearing the 4 month water change, so this isn't "new" water. I wonder how long it would have gone sans treatment? I have no desire to find out, though!
The beauty of good filtration and (debatable) ozone isn't that they are the *only* way to keep a spa clean, but, to me, they are little insurance policies for when you don't do a daily or every-other-day ritual. We also belive we use less chems. After almost a year of ownership I believe we are on the original chlorine, PH, ALK and foam-out containers and have gone through 2 MPS containers.
-Ed
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I've had several different brands of hot tubs and have noticed that in my hot springs with 100% filtration I don't need clarifiers, I don't have scum lines, and there is almost no scrubbing or cleaning the shell when i drain and refill.
Although the Beachcomber in my showroom isn't used as often as most owners' tubs, I can say the exact same thing regarding clarifiers, scum lines, and general cleaning. It is a 400 gallon tub that uses a single 25 sq. foot filter.
100% filtration probably isn't needed if the spas you sell don't have it
lol - Very true! As with other unique/rare features on tubs, it isn't necessary, but can be nice to have.
The danger lies in believing the person who says "You must have this, or else."
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Although the Beachcomber in my showroom isn't used as often as most owners' tubs, I can say the exact same thing regarding clarifiers, scum lines, and general cleaning. It is a 400 gallon tub that uses a single 25 sq. foot filter.
I'll even take that one step further. I had a Beachcomber with 400 gallons that was used at least 5 days a week with 2-4 people each day at home. This spa also had 1 - 25 sq ft filter and my water quality was always great. I too could leave it for more than a week and return to crystal clear water. Did I need 3 or more filters? And it was done by a company that doesn't sell more spas than anyone else. Go figure. ??? ;)
The money I saved on not having to replace all those filters was put towards chemicals and therefore lowered my maintenance costs! ;D
Steve
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Thanks for the info!! It seems like the general feeling is, it's nice to have but not really that important. I didn't see any reply that says it is a "must have" option. Thanks again!
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Quite honestly, only the Hotspring people think it is absolutely necessary. Just like the Sundance people think that Micro-Clean filtration is necessary. I could keep going and going, but what is the point. The major brands are going to keep your water clear. That is all that matters.
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I don't sell it as a "must have" feature, but I wouldn't want to have a spa without it. Just my personal preference.
Terminator
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And now that I know that a self cleaning spa can clean the footwell and reduce maintenance and chemical costs, I wouldn't want to go without that now also! ;)
(http:// http://www.hydropoolhottubs.com/Hydropool.data/Components/features/ftrimgs/selfclean_10selfclean_10.jpg )
Steve
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"it" - "100% filtration", is a Hotspring's marketing slogan. As stated it only means that all of the water moved is through a filter - there are other brands that do the same thing and some that do not yet they offer a good filtration system.
A mentioned several times, ultimately, what is "really needed" is a quality reputable tub that has a good filtration system along with good water care/maintnance.
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All spas have 100% filtration. eventfully all the water will go through the filter. ;D
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i don`t think it really matters , my tub only filters about 85% of the water when the pump is on( tiger river bengal) and i always have clean water. But as gary stated it will all eventually be filtered.
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But as gary stated it will all eventually be filtered.
Except for that one little spot down in the left-hand corner by the bottom of the footwell...
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Except for that one little spot down in the left-hand corner by the bottom of the footwell...
Yeh...it's an industry wide issue... :-/
Steve
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Yeh...it's an industry wide issue... :-/
Steve
In the Southern hemisphere it's the lower right-hand corner...
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is that what the spot is from? :D :D :D
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I will disagree. Since HotSpring sells more tubs than any other maker, and since HotSpring draws 100% of the water it moves through a filter before moving it, it would be fair to say that MOST spas do not bypass the filters as you have d[e]scribed.
If there are more Hot Spring tubs (and "hotspring-like" tubs) in the marketplace than all other "filter by-pass tubs" combined, I will recant. I was not aware of the total market dominance of the "100% filtration" spas.
It would also be fair to say that most brand do, because I know of only two or three which do what HotSpring does.
Clarification here please: "...it would be fair to say that MOST spas do not bypass the filters..." or "It would also be fair to say that most brand do..."?
Otherwise you can only say...
I may have misunderstood something here; now don't take this personally - I believe I can and may say or write anything I please, as long as it is within the forum guidelines. Am I incorrect wmccall, ht-mod?
This simply means that a HotSpring spa can do in 10 minutes what bypass spas will take an hour to do.
Is it important? It tends to make a spa easier to keep clean and clear.
It's agreed then, "Most all tubs ['Since HotSpring sells more tubs than any other maker'] filter 100% of the water multiple times each day through the circulation/filtration pump. This is important [tends to make a spa easier to keep clean and clear]."
Let's just agree to agree with arguably agreeable disagreements. :D
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I may have misunderstood something here; now don't take this personally - I believe I can and may say or write anything I please, as long as it is within the forum guidelines. Am I incorrect wmccall, ht-mod?
I think Chas was not clear here. I think he meant to say "you can't say this... and be factually correct". Without question you have the right to say as many incorrect things here as you would like.
-Ed
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I think Chas was not clear here. I think he meant to say "you can't say this... and be factually correct". Without question you have the right to say as many incorrect things here as you would like.
-Ed
Thanks for clearing that up.
It's factually correct then that:
"HotSpring only claims that it's tubs filter 100% of the water that they move".
I apologize then, recant, and rephrase:
Certain tub manufacturers only claim to filter 100% of the water. They also claim it makes a spa easier to keep clean and clear.
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I apologize then, recant, and rephrase:
Certain tub manufacturers only claim to filter 100% of the water. They also claim it makes a spa easier to keep clean and clear.
You are getting closer! You left out the "that they move" part.
So, the factually correct statements are:
1) Certain tub manufacturers only claim to filter 100% of the water.
2) Hot Springs claims that it filters 100% of the water that it moves.
3) They also claim it makes a spa easier to keep clean and clear.
And this is the actual, and very real, point of it (aside from being cute with the English language). Just like systems that allow "bypass" allow some water to never touch a filter, the hot springs tubs allow water to never go through the filter. The only additionaly guarantee that hot spring adds is that *if* a particular molecule of water goes through the pumps it has been through a filter.
There is *no tub* that guarantees that every bit of water is filtered. They can say that X gallons of water is filtered, or that all water through the pump is filtered. And this is part of the heart of the debate between circulation pumps and jet pumps for filtration cycles. Yes, circ. pumps run 24/7, but jet pumps cause greater agitation to try and limit dead spots in the tub.
You apology, or need to "recant", is just not necessary, so don't let yourself get all hung up on that. Just be aware that, in addition to being playful and/or nitpicky with the English language there is subtle meaning to the verbage.
WHy is it important? Because it helps explain why such various and differing methodologies all produce good results: All only need to filter "enough" and nobody filters everything. And, variance in filtration will be dampened by water changes and additives.
8)
-Ed
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WHy is it important? Because it helps explain why such various and differing methodologies all produce good results: All only need to filter "enough" and nobody filters everything. And, variance in filtration will be dampened by water changes and additives.
Once again, you have said in one paragraph what I couldn't say in two pages.
Perfect.
Thanks Ed.
:)
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It's apparent, even transparent, that I'm not in the spa sales department. Although I have sold a few badly needed spa covers.
I think ya'll know that the spa owner/operator is the determing factor when it comes to clear water.
Yep, that's me, "The Master of the Obvious". ;D
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If I have 4 other people in my spa with me HotSprings filters all the water even when the jets are on. If you know anything about what comes off of peoples bodies when they are in a spa ( sweat, hair, fecal matter, etc.) 100% filtration is the thing that seperates a spa from taking a bath with friends.
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In summary, if you are a germophobe, HS is the best spa for you...
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With all of this being stated though....100% filtration etc...
All of the major brands do a great job filtering the water. They all have their niche as to how they do it. I do know that the only way to be 100% sure that you are filtering all the water is to have 100% of the water enter the filter and then have 100% of the water leave the filter. Plain and simple....as soon as you allow filtered water (by whatever means) mix with unfiltered water...then you cannot GUARANTEE that 100% of the water is filtered. The more times you circulate that mix, though, the cleaner the mix should be thats all.
Not bashing anyone....just making an observation...especially when a dealer told me that 100% of his water was filtered. I said prove it...that he could not! That does not mean it steered me away from the dealer nor does it mean that filtration is bad....just depends on the angle you look at it from I guess.
As someone stated before MARKETING!
Regards,
:)
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In summary, if you are a germophobe, HS is the best spa for you...
Not really, if your in someone's spa who has 100% filteration and all the filters have picked up all that JTJ23BA said and that person doesn't use sanitizer effectively your in BIG trouble.
I think that IF you buy into the 100% filteration and think it's the only thing affecting how clean the water is - I don't want to be invited into your tub!
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In summary, if you are a germophobe, HS is the best spa for you...
Best comment of the Year Award !!
LOL - inlcuding the rolling on the floor part!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Remember - a HotSpring can do in ten minutes what other spas will take an hour or two to do.
So you can relax.
Except for germaphobes - nothing will ever make them relax.
;)
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If I have 4 other people in my spa with me HotSprings filters all the water even when the jets are on.
Again, not quite. And before you think I'm a dealer or something, I own a HS grandee and sell nothing. I know how HS filters its water.
Every molecule of water that goes into the pump is filtered. Every molecule of water that comes out of a jet has been filtered. It is wonderful, and I have some long stretches where, because I have been busy lately, the tub has had ZERO care and still kept clear water.
But all tubs have dead spots and you've still got fecal matter in your HS tubs after a day or two, just not alot of it. You need X% of your water to be filtered in a "filtering period" say, maybe, a day (assuming you get in each day).
There is a threshold that must be met to assume clear water using our senses. Let's say that is around 95%. Most tubs will filter 95% of the water in a day. Some do it with jet pumps and bottom suctions. Some do it with circulation pumps and more filters. But ALL of them do very well.
Why is the HS especially nice? I have a few theories but the biggest one is:
HS doesn't let unfiltered water sit in the plumbing. All water in the jets and pumps and through the heater has been pulled through a filter. This reduces the ability of grit, sands, etc from messing up the pumps and heater, I would imagine. Also, since unfiltered water doesn't sit in the plumbing the water might be able to go stagnant longer and avoid some growth.
The one down-side? HS doesn't use jet pumps to agitate the water to make sure as much water as possible is kicked around to try and minimize dead spots. That is why the "clean" button exists on HS tubs: to address that limitation.
But here is a good test for anyone who wants a red tub...
Drop a bottle of red food coloring in the tub, and see how long it takes the water to clear. 8)
-Ed
ps. For all you germaholics, every time you flush your toilet great gobs of fecal matter are kicked up into the air and land on everything in your bathroom, most notably your exposed toothbrushes.
pps. HS should be for everyone, but I don't see how putting the tri-x filters in your dishwasher is going to "wash" for germaholics. ;)
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Here's a simple explanation of filtration. It's not how long the spa filters, but how much water the spa filters. And the location of water in the spa that is filtered. Example: Dirt sinks to the bottom, oils float to the top usrface area. Most circulation pump designs only pull water from 8-10 inches below the surface (missing oils on top and dirt in the bottom). They only filter the middle third of the spa water, where the cleanest water presides. So many tell you to manually press buttons to skim the surface after you use the spa. Hot sSprings for example Chas will not skim one ounce of water unless the "clean" button is pressed after exiting the spa or while using it on high speed. 1,100 gallons is filtered in the ten minutes during this cycle.
By the way the only reason most circulation pumps run 24 hours is that if they only ran 5, 10 or 15 hours they don't pull enough water through the filters to clean the water adequately. That is the main reason they ypically burn out every 3 - 6 years. Circulation pumps do work well, however they were designed are are still used today for marketing purposes rather than practical filtration methods.
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Drop a bottle of red food coloring in the tub, and see how long it takes the water to clear. 8)
If there is chlorine in water any spa will get rid of the color right away.
You make some good points but Hot Springs is not the only ones that do that. There are even some spas out there that will do the clean cycle automatically so you do not to touch a button.
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pps. HS should be for everyone, but I don't see how putting the tri-x filters in your dishwasher is going to "wash" for germaholics. ;)
So now we have both germaphobes and germaholics.
Wow. What brand of spa does a germaholic buy? Wait, don't answer that.....
;)
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The actual medical condition is mysophobia, fear of germ contamination ..... if anyone really cares. ;D
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Example: Dirt sinks to the bottom, oils float to the top usrface area. Most circulation pump designs only pull water from 8-10 inches below the surface (missing oils on top and dirt in the bottom). They only filter the middle third of the spa water, where the cleanest water presides.
The circ pump keeps the water in constant motion. On HS tubs there is no stratification of the water even when only the circ pump is running. But that's not the main event: kick on the jets and the water mixes even more - kicking up dirt that may have settled. Hot sSprings, for example, will not skim one ounce of water unless the "clean" button is pressed after exiting the spa or while using it on high speed. 1,100 gallons is filtered in the ten minutes during this cycle.
They don't need to. The time you need filtration the most is during and after use, and that's how the HS system works.
Most good spas have large skimmers. Sundance and HS both have large flat ones, Tiger River has an even larger round one, and others have their own variations on the theme. But the trouble is: the water is so turbulant while the jets are running that there is little effect from the skimmer, and there is virtually no skimming when only the circ pump is on. The HS skimmer does pull from the surface when the jets are on, and it has vents down below which also pull some water in.
One exception comes to mind: Beachcomber uses a much larger circ pump, and they can be observed generating real skimming action when only the circ system is running. I don't know if most users leave that larger pump on at all times or not.
By the way the only reason most circulation pumps run 24 hours is that if they only ran 5, 10 or 15 hours they don't pull enough water through the filters to clean the water adequately. That is the main reason they ypically burn out every 3 - 6 years. Circulation pumps do work well, however they were designed are are still used today for marketing purposes rather than practical filtration methods.
Those are interesting opinions... but HotSpring runs the circ pump all the time for many reasons: constant temp in every part of the spa including motor compartment and heater, corners, filter area, behind the MotoMassage jets and similar corners and nooks. Also, moving the water as they do allows for constant ozonation if that equipment is installed. Even if it's not, having the water moving all the time makes it easier to keep things clean and clear by making sure Chlorine -or other sanitizer - is distributed to all parts of the water. There are many reasons why the circ pump runs all the time in the HS design, filtering is only one of them. They don't just count on that small amount of constant filtration though, the clean button makes sense because you don't need to do the maximum filtration if the tub isn't used.
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So now we have both germaphobes and germaholics.
Wow. What brand of spa does a germaholic buy? Wait, don't answer that.....
;)
;D Oops, I imagine germaholics and germaphobes wouldn't get along together very well at all. (It would probably make a good TV sitcom though...)
-Ed
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Yes, filtration is very important to ensure the cleanliness and absorb the benefits given by that filtered water. In fact, most of the hot springs now are filtered. Many examples below are proven that water filtration is significant.
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Hi Is 100% filteration like Hot Springs has really needed.? The Hot springs salesperson says it is, and other brand salespeople say it is not that important. Hot Springs says thier 24hr pump will filter the water 12 times per day and the main pumps draw all water through the filters. How important is that?? Thanks for the help!!
Yes, filtration is very important to ensure the cleanliness and absorb the benefits given by that filtered water. In fact, most of the hot springs now are filtered. Many examples below are proven that water filtration is significant.
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But only BP has Invigorate!
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I would 2nd the motion from Chris, all manufacturers have there buzzwords or the have the best widget, while the other has the best thingamajiggy, the bottom line is that your high end spas all clean water, the argument can go on and on who s design is the best, we all have our favorites and are biased toward them, Most high end manufacturers have ozone systems and mineral cartridges, so again if it filters water and is crystal clear they all will work, So i would say the D1, Hot Springs, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, all have good filtration systems......
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And so will the the non-major brands ..as long as they have some kind of similar filter. I'd even be willing to bet the Chinese made spas will too.
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And we are digging up a five year old thread because???
:D