Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Mendocino101 on March 01, 2005, 03:22:54 pm
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With all due respect to the Happy and helpful Master spa owners who contribute to this board.....Here is something that is taken directly from another board and points to why Master within the spa industry is questioned so many times by other industry professionals....The person claims to be their biggest dealer in the Great Lakes area......and what he mentions here is completely false....
"Marqui spa has the reputation of changing their warranty from year to year while master Spas warranty remains the same. Marqui used to offer a microban shell and now they don't carry it because they want to go with a shell thats cheaper to make. I live in Grand Rapids MI and its one of the largest hot tub communities in the U.S. because you have 4 manufactures and 10 dealers and no one carries Marqui lol Geee i wonder why, that right their should bring up red flags. The marqui rep for great lakes region is trying to get a dealer to carry his product, our compANY TURNED HIM DOWN. Also if your concerned with safety all master spas are UL listed as self contained spas marqui spas are not UL approved. If you want to check me out on this visit www.ul.com go under certifiaction and type in marquispas and then type in masterspas. The choice is clear my friend"
A few things Marquis is UL listed...he is sorta right about the MicroBan....it is no longered offered as an option it is however now STANDARD on every spa they make....
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Bring him over to this board Mendo and we'll beat him up. >:( ;)
Spahappy :D
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By the way...I am not saying Master makes a bad spa.....it is more about things that in marketing and sales that they seem to endorse .....Spa shows that are really Master shows.....the very very deceptive rebate program.....
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It should be pointed out that there is no proof as to the effectiveness of microban in preventing bacteria in spas or forming to the spa shell. Microban is simply a marketing tool. One advantage to Lucite arcylics w/ microban is that there are more color options available to the consumer. Also I saw on another board where a master spas dealer told a poster that he would beat any price that any other master dealer quoted the customer (this master dealer was in the midwest, and was willing to sell out of his territory into another master spa dealers mide west area, over state lines too). I agree with you mendo my friend in that master makes a decent spa w/ a lot of cool features but a lot of the tactics employed by their sales and marketing dept are shady and borderline unethical at times.
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Poolboy...
You are right about Microban and if it is effective in helping to prevent bacterial growth it does however enhance colors and Marquis has made the decision to make it standard on all of there 05 spas....Certianly nice to have if you are not paying a up charge for it...but as the Master dealer says that Marquis does not offer it because they make a cheaper shell is such a blatant lie.....
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It is nice, it definilty makes the shell colors stand out more. Hawkeye has it on their shells. You definilty get more choices for shell colors that's for sure. I also tend to believe that the MAIN reason Marquis isn't in that particular dealers area is more due to shipping charges on the spas then it has to do with the quality of the tubs. Having a local manufacturer is VERY advantageous for a dealer. being able to go to the manufacturer and pick up your spas definitly helps to lower your costs. Also having manufacturers w/in close proximity also helps to reduce shipping charges.
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Here is another reason... I was trying to decide what Spa brand to place in a store a while back. Realized I missed the opporunity to rep for Master as another dealer snapped up this territory in the summer of 04. I went to what was promoted as a "Spa Show" with many mfgs represented (from TV ad). Got there and thought the ZERO refunds policy was odd but paid my $5/person and walked in. Realized the reason for the sign almost immediately. The ONLY spas there were Master. There were a few non-master companies on the edges selling add ons, gazebo's, etc but no other spa mfgs were there. Essentially, I had paid $5/person to visit a Master Spa showroom floor. OK, I had been had (as had many others). Decided to "play the game" as a buyer and got info of the spas, sizes, etc. I was then introduces to one of the Master Spa "principles" who had flown in for the show (I guess the salesman was trying to impress me...It backfired on him BADLY). When I told them I was interested in what spas they had in the $6K to $8K range, they indicated that they could only "go that low" with their Down East version of the product. As we "chatted" I clearly stated that I was not a buyer but was actually considering getting into the business and (at that time) respected the Master brand. He confessed that the majority of spas sell in the price range I was looking at. He went on to say that they make more margin on the Down East platform and it was a great way to generate revenue (trying to appeal to my greedy side). I asked if they sold many of the LS750's for the $13K price they were asking and he stated "We don't sell that many but if you have a buyer that can afford it, why would you sell them something for less money" (even if the competitors $9K product is equal to or better than their high-end product)? The thing he didn't realize is that I DESPISE such a greedy selling techniques and actually percieve the BAD techniques as a dis-service to the public. I realized that this is their ONLY driving force behind the PRINCIPLES efforts to promote his products (get as much cash out of the suckers as possible). In the end I essentially called him a snake oil salesman who wasn't in the least bit interested in his clients needs but rather was interested only in lining his own pockets at the cost of integrity. The Owner turned red and stormed away. My wife was embarrassed by my frankness to this guy. I thought of making a bigger deal and pointing out to the other shoppers what a jackass this guy was but decided that I had a normal life to live and simply moved on. Walked outside his "showroom" and had a little BBQ pork at the BBQ competition that was also going on (i.e. no cost) and then went and looked at $200K motor homes across the street (also at ZERO cost) since my dad was considering one of them...
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The scary thing is that all too often we hear about master spa dealers, reps, principles etc that are exactly like how mendo and bunka describe them. its unfortunate too. Because we all know there are reputable dealers out there who sell master spas and there are also very happy master spa owners too. And this is not to say that their aren't bad dealers and poor reps representing and selling other brands of spas either, b/c there are. it just seems that master spa, cal spa, catalina, coast and arctic have more of these horror stories then any of the other brands of spas on the market. it really makes me wonder how in fact these companies and dealers stay in business with the poor reputations they have earned over the years.
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Being the head of purchasing tools and equipment for the past 20 years for three different mechanical contractors I have learned a few things about "Snake Oil Salesman" as you folks have so elequently put it. I say that because there is some very very sleasy sales folks out there, and saying "snake oil" is a compliment to some. But having learned how to deal with sales people I can tell you this, once you have it figured out it is easy to get right to the bottom of the bunk and make them fold into a standard markup, and work from there. My wife won't let me grocery shop with her no more because I ask the guy behind the meat counter if I can get a bigger discount if I buy a pallet full of chops, and how about if I commit to a years worth of meat, blah blah blah. Or I like this one I will buy all my spa's from you for my 18 cabins at the lake and the resort I am half owner in across the lake if you sell me this one for my personal house for cost plus 5 percent.
My point is it can be turned around on them if your capable of playing the same game and holding your own. It's not easy for some, and doing it with a straight face also becomes not part of our nature. By taking the upper hand and explaining what's right for you, not them, being agressive, as they are, and putting yourself in the position of strenght, because after all it's YOUR MONEY. You will find it easier to gain a repetuar with any salesman. It helps to educate yourself on whatever product your looking for by comparing brands and investigating companys before you start.
I also know salesman that could sell fire to the devil, are very courteous, understanding and stand by there customers. Those are the ones I can deal with. And we can both feel good that he made a fair markup and I got a fair deal.
Auto's are the worst most full size trucks can have a 10,000 dollar mark up for the dealer by the time they get there year end kick back from the manufacturer and finance company. I always go in and think if I can pay the dealer 2 maybe 3 grand over what they are going to have to pay at the end of the year, I have recieved a good deal. I like to hold out the 2-3 grand in front of the owner of a dealership. Tell him he don't have to do nothing, but order it and fill out the paper work. Don't sell me nothing I have my mind made up. Do it over the phone to 3 different dealers and tell them exactly what you are doing, it's amazing how after a while you'll get one to play or two. Then the next time when you call them back and tell them again what you did last time and what your doing again, they all want to play.
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Marqui spa has the reputation of changing their warranty from year to year while master Spas warranty remains the same. Marqui used to offer a microban shell and now they don't carry it because they want to go with a shell thats cheaper to make. I live in Grand Rapids MI and its one of the largest hot tub communities in the U.S. because you have 4 manufactures and 10 dealers and no one carries Marqui lol Geee i wonder why, that right their should bring up red flags. The marqui rep for great lakes region is trying to get a dealer to carry his product, our compANY TURNED HIM DOWN. Also if your concerned with safety all master spas are UL listed as self contained spas marqui spas are not UL approved. If you want to check me out on this visit www.ul.com go under certifiaction and type in marquispas and then type in masterspas. The choice is clear my friend
Oh the places I could go here!!! >:(
I hope this guy doesn't lie to his wife this way! Come on! Marquis has increased their warranty over the last 5 years as the product proves itself more and more. Master still has the same warranty with the same exclusions and if you do a side be side comparison you will see all kinds of holes in the Master warranty that Marquis fills!
Master spa dealers and salesman tend to be some of the most aggressive out there and many borderline or even are outright unethical. Marquis has won several awards for customer education and innovation.
I would Love to sell against this guy! He would be my best sales tool!!!
BTW, Marquis is and has been UL listed for years…. they were the first company to offer MicroBan on every spa in the line and have Never stopped offering it however, they are the first to say that your filtration and sanitation are much more important than MicroBan.
BTW, the dealer for Grand Rapids is; SERENITY SPAS 1868 W GRAND RIVER AVENUE in OKEMOS. If a dealership is doing a good job of marketing the product from a neighboring town Marquis might not open another dealer there. Sometimes they even hold off for that dealer if they have plans to expand to another store and just to inform this nutcase…4 manufactures and 10 dealers in no way qualifies you as “one of the largest hot tub communities in the U.S”!
I wonder if he knows that the world doesn't end at the edge of Grand Rapids (do they have spell check up there)?
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With all due respect to the Happy and helpful Master spa owners who contribute to this board.....Here is something that is taken directly from another board and points to why Master within the spa industry is questioned so many times by other industry professionals....The person claims to be their biggest dealer in the Great Lakes area......and what he mentions here is completely false....
"Marqui spa has the reputation of changing their warranty from year to year while master Spas warranty remains the same. Marqui used to offer a microban shell and now they don't carry it because they want to go with a shell thats cheaper to make. I live in Grand Rapids MI and its one of the largest hot tub communities in the U.S. because you have 4 manufactures and 10 dealers and no one carries Marqui lol Geee i wonder why, that right their should bring up red flags. The marqui rep for great lakes region is trying to get a dealer to carry his product, our compANY TURNED HIM DOWN. Also if your concerned with safety all master spas are UL listed as self contained spas marqui spas are not UL approved. If you want to check me out on this visit www.ul.com go under certifiaction and type in marquispas and then type in masterspas. The choice is clear my friend"
A few things Marquis is UL listed...he is sorta right about the MicroBan....it is no longered offered as an option it is however now STANDARD on every spa they make....
Mendo,
Thank you for the "due respect" introduction....I value your opinions and the opinions of others in this thread. With all due respect to you and others posted here, I do find it rather odd that such a fuss has been made about comments from an individual who is decidedly confrontational and misinformed. Though he may claim to be the biggest MS dealer in the midwest, his comments lead me to believe he may be no more than a broom pusher--easily a possibility in this internet world in which we populate--or a troll--or just an idiot. What is more disappointing is the way a completely off-the-wall and misinformed post as this would set off yet another MasterBasher session but, unfortunately, that seems to be the way here. The only reason I comment rather than ignore is not to try to convince anyone here to change their opinions, which are very strong, but to keep the casual spa shopper from thinking that MS, though they make a good tub as was quoted by several posters in the thread, is not this huge black cloud of trouble that is portrayed.
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Windy is right, we are not belittling the spa itself but rather the sales philosophy of many of the dealers!
The problem is that they have a guy who is an independent contractor that has headed up the majority of the sales under the factory name. Much of the questionable ethics can be directly pointed towards him and his crew and not the factory. IMO, the factory is digging a hole for themselves out of greed by letting it continue just to have the volume....
Now having said that Windy has a Master and loves it along with a few others on this forum…
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Mr Dog.... ;)
What I hope you understand is that...and I am sure you do is that the Internet while such a great a valuable tool....for so many in so many ways....is also so unregulated that a person such as the gentleman from the Great Lakes area can post this and while it is completely false and without any merit at all....Influence those who are trying to make a educated and thoughtful decision about something that they will most likely have for many years....I think you will agree that people like....Steve...Chas....Stuart.....SpaHappy....Poolboy among others while all representing different makes of spas all do so with the respect and the professionalism that people deserve and none of them have to blatantly lie about their products but even more so about another's to earn their living.....I guess what I am trying to say is that you do read here and on other boards about so many shady dealers and sales practices and when you seem to consistently come across certain lines that do in fact seemingly encourage these type of practices...It is frustrating to you as a dealer because it is the type of thing that hurts the indusrty.....The thread about the lady out of Texas and what she is going though is another example of this.....(not Master related)....As I have said here before I wish Master would simply stop with some of the marketing things they do because the spas they make...I am sure can stand on there own to next any other.....Many owners like yourself seem to be very pleased.....
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Mendo,
Have I ever told you that I really appreciate the way you think? Even when your bombarding my with questions ;) ;D
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it just seems that master spa, cal spa, catalina, coast and arctic have more of these horror stories then any of the other brands of spas on the market. it really makes me wonder how in fact these companies and dealers stay in business with the poor reputations they have earned over the years.
Exactly where are these horror stories about Arctic Spas? I follow a few forums and have not seen any. I also know intimitely the great lengths we, at Arctic, go to ensure the end customer is taken care of in the event of a warranty, or any service issue for that matter. I also know how hard our dealers work to support their customers.
I would appreciate that you not slander our company, our products or our service, without backing it up with factual "horror" stories.
James Keirstead
Arctic Spas
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Ummmm I've seen this type of post about almost every manufacture. Not sure why people are so happy to bash Master. I purchased my Master from a good dealer, paid a fair price and have been happy. I looked at Caldera, HS, Jacuzzi, Marquis and Sundance. I also looked a few others which I can't remember but I also ran into dealers selling these lines that did all that stuff mentioned above and worse. Most of the Salespersons I ran into were not well educated in their own products much less the competitions. Seems like the only guys that were knowledgable were the smaller mom and pop places where you dealt directly with the owner, who had been selling the product for some time. That's why if your going to spend the money you should be the one who is educated and know what your looking for and getting. That's why places like this are invaluable. Just my .02!
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I agree Drifter. As a MS dealer, I do visit other dealers in other cities, and I also run into the same problems from folks as the ones who are complaining about MS. It all boils down to knowing your product, knowing your competitors product, and GETTING ALONG. I cant take all the spa deals, though I wish I could.
HS, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, et all make good products. If they didnt, they wouldnt still be in business. If we could all just stop bad mouthing one anothers' product, and sell the features and benefits of the product we represent, the world would be a better place.
And this so called largest dealer in the midwest? Me thinks he is nothing more than a wannabe salesman. Bad training on the part of his managers. I dont bash others, if someone asks what I think of a particular co, I tell them they make a good product but I do push my features and benefits without disparaging another. And ... unless he has WRITTEN approval to sell out of his market by MS, he is blowing smoke and putting his dealership in jeopardy.
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To Drifter and Ohio...
You both are right and while this person does claim to be his areas largest dealer......he might be a saleman....hell he might do the deliveries... but the point is he is simply lying and that is just not right.....Master's spas do not get bashed....it is some of the sales practices that do...The spa show thing is for me the single reason why....it is such a complete lie in the way that it is promoted and it happens the same way all across the country....I went to the show here in so cal about 2 years ago as a genuine buyer and was so turned off by the falsehood of it....If you want to be part of an RV show at a fair grounds great...but please when you promote it...promote as the show that is A Master Spa Sale....but leave off names of other makers who will never be there ..just keep it real...You might even get a better turn out if it promoted as a Factory direct thing......
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Exactly where are these horror stories about Arctic Spas? I follow a few forums and have not seen any. I also know intimitely the great lengths we, at Arctic, go to ensure the end customer is taken care of in the event of a warranty, or any service issue for that matter. I also know how hard our dealers work to support their customers.
I would appreciate that you not slander our company, our products or our service, without backing it up with factual "horror" stories.
James Keirstead
Arctic Spas
With all due respect JP, I wasn't trying to slander or put down your company in any way shape or form. I was simply making an observation. I have never said that Arctic nor master Spa makes a bad product. However, time and time again, the actions of a few individual dealers(reguardless of brand b/c it happens with almost all of them) has hurt the reputations of reputable manufactuers. Unfortunately it seems that the same brands are repeatedly mentioned by consumers who have had issues with dealers.
And I agree with you OHspadealer that too often salepeople are uneducated on their products. Some of this can be attributed to the manufacturers training sessions as well. I can say that the training seminars that Watkins and D-1 (for example, and speaking from personal experience having attended sessionsof both) that they are starkly different. Watkins has excelent SALES training. D-1 does too, but they focus more on their product and product knowledge in their seminars. In fact I know that many of the dealers that were attending the watkins seminar complained that they didn't spend enough time on product knowledge and openly pointed this out. Now I don't know how other manufacturers conduct their sales training or what the main focus of the their seminars are, but I'd say it's a safe bet that they do spend alot of time on the sales process more so then overall product knowledge. Now this by no means should let the salespeople off the hook for not knowing their product. My boss(owner) has always stressed to us that we are REQUIRED to know about EVERY product we carry, how it works, what it consists of, how to use/apply it, when to use it etc.... And we are also REQUIRED to know the ins and outs of our competitors products as well. Believe me this makes a HUGE difference when you can confidently praise a competeing product, yet show how the subtle differences of your own product make it better. Knowledge is truly advantageous and we always welcome the educated shoppers, as it makes our job of helping them find the best spa for THEM all that much easier.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Spas Dealer
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Wohhhhh JP you have always represented your product with proffesionalism, but, that doesn't mean all the dealers of the brand you sell have and that's where the horror stories come from.
In your next training seminar tell your dealers to back off on the pedestal they are trying to put your brand on and sell it based on comfort, reliability, and customer support. Rather than superiority, and the "what makes sence" line.
Words from a consumer that has listened to all the major brands sales pitch including yours. And has been in purchasing for 20+ years.
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Wohhhhh JP you have always represented your product with proffesionalism, but, that doesn't mean all the dealers of the brand you sell have and that's where the horror stories come from.
In your next training seminar tell your dealers to back off on the pedestal they are trying to put your brand on and sell it based on comfort, reliability, and customer support. Rather than superiority, and the "what makes sence" line.
Words from a consumer that has listened to all the major brands sales pitch including yours. And has been in purchasing for 20+ years.
Tman,
The Sundance dealer from whom I tried to buy a Cameo had the same exact attitude--about Hot Springs, no less. I knew better and discounted his negative sales techniques as well as his lack of personality and "holier than thou" attitude which resulted in my LSX purchase (of which I am now much more pleased and appreciate the LSX features over the Cameo) thereby discarding the Sundance line altogether. My point is that this is certainly not restricted to MS or Arctic or any other manufacturer.
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FYI, I checked out of this thread a little while ago. It looks like everyone is playing nice. If anything needs moderated, PM me 8)
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. Not sure why people are so happy to bash Master.
From what I have seen, soley on this forum, a lot of that comes from these spa shows that are supposed to be "several manufacturers" and end up being only Master. Granted I have never seen this and don't believe my local dealer participates in this type of arrangement.
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From what I have seen, soley on this forum, a lot of that comes from these spa shows that are supposed to be "several manufacturers" and end up being only Master. Granted I have never seen this and don't believe my local dealer participates in this type of arrangement.
Bill...
You are very right...and while it has been raised by others and verified that it seems to take place all across the country those who are Master "fans" never address it....again it is not about bashing their spas.....at the "Spa Extravaganza"........errrrrrrrrr uhhhh I mean Master spa sale......the spas looked interesting somethings I liked somethings not.....but no more or no less than most others....but the sales people and the fact that I went thinking I was going to be able to some real shopping to compare other makers was such a turnoff.....
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Bill...
You are very right...and while it has been raised by others and verified that it seems to take place all across the country
I have to imagine (all my comments about being a spa dealer are based on my limited knowledge as being a customer once. ;D) But I would think these "extravaganzas" do cost the participating dealers some serious coin overhead. And the people here suggest that it is a event encouraged by Corporate, I wonder what percentage of dealers participate.
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Bill,
I do not know if this is correct....but "I think" the shows are the Master factory they are far to large in scale for a local dealer to handle..."again"......this is what they appear to me as in my area the dealers name they used did not have a showroom....and was not part of the promotion in the advertsing....
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I have to imagine (all my comments about being a spa dealer are based on my limited knowledge as being a customer once. ;D) But I would think these "extravaganzas" do cost the participating dealers some serious coin overhead. And the people here suggest that it is a event encouraged by Corporate, I wonder what percentage of dealers participate.
As they own the venue the price is the cost of the site + cost of advertising + Decorating less whatever they can sell other booths to unsuspecting non spa related companies!
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FYI, I checked out of this thread a little while ago. It looks like everyone is playing nice. If anything needs moderated, PM me 8)
It's nice to know that Dad is close by, and ready to step in at the first sign of sibling rivalrey. :)
Spahappy :D
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We have in the past ran co-ordinated sales in other parts of our territory, say 1-2 hours away from to reach another market. These have been co-ordinated through and with our manufacturer. And also there are no dealers in these markets that sell the same brand of spas that we sell so that is not an issue. We deliver the spas and do any service on them if and when necessary for those customers who purchase at one of the sales. Now if these "spa extravaganzas" are set-up through a dealer by the manufacturer that is one thing. If they are solely put on by the manufacturer and the local dealer is not notified of them, that is another ball of wax all together. As I assume the local dealer would be responsible for servicing the spas sold at such a function??? And who's responsible for setting up and delivering the spas sold at one of these functions???
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I attended a master spa show in Novi Michigan in Jan. It was advertised as a multi dealer show but MS was the only brand there. We are moving to Tucson Az when our new home is completed later this year. We only wanted to look at different spas. A factory rep told us we could buy a spa and have it delivered through the MS dealer in Tucson. They would also store it here in Michigan until our house was done He reassured me the dealer would be fine with this arrangement. While I still can't believe it, we bought one. It seemed like a really good deal though I later found out it was average at best.
We decided to buy the LSX1050 as we wanted a large tub.We gave them a $1000. dep. After thinking it over and reading the posts on this forum I knew dealers could not be happy about this arrangement. I called the dealer in Tucson and he was irate. He stated he would not accept, deliver, or service this spa. He told me to try and get my money back and he would call the president of MS himself for me. I called my salesman who now tells me "someone" will deliver the spa and I can get a contract repairman out of the yellow pages for service.
I had specified to the salesman that I wanted a local dealer to deliver and service the spa. While this behavior may not be illegal it is unethical. I blame myself for getting in to this position, I should have done more homework. How can MS let this travelling circus continue to operate at the dealer's expense? Regardless of getting my money back or not I will not buy a Master Spa.
We have since tested the D1 sarena bay and love it. I will buy this spa from a LOCAL dealer in Tucson. Thanks to all especially Stuart. I will post the outcome of this fiasco. I only wish I had discoverd this forum before I foolishly put a deposit on this spa. I'm sure master spa has good local dealers and I should have waited and dealt with them in Az.
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mowgli1,
Thank you for being a big enough person to post the outcome after our heated debate earlier and I especially thank you for the PM you sent me, it really showed character!
Don’t feel like you’re the only one to ever fall for this type of tactic…Many others have.
I will do whatever I can to help in this situation and feel free to use my personal email if you have questions.
You will love the D1!
BTW, you would have enjoyed the Master Spa also if it had been handled better.
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Stuart,
Thank you for your help. This forum is a great place to learn.
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I recently went to a home show outside of Atlanta and there were two Spa dealers there, one for Royal and one for Bulldog. While talking to both the Royal was first explained to me by a young kid who was dressed in camo's, not very professional for a show, but I am not here to judge people on looks. Well he was explaining the features of the tub and was doing a good job, I could tell he was new at selling, but I was interested in learning more, BUT then I suppose his boss, not sure who he was, but he jumped into our conversation and took over immediately, which i did not appreciate the young kid was doing fine on his own. But anyway the lead saleman/owner/boss was very pushy and kept telling me all the "famous" people that bought a tub from him...that completely turned me off and I graciously jumped out of the conversation.
The bulldog dealer was a man with two young very pretty assistants, but the girls took a break and it was just me and him 1 on 1, he did a very good job explaining his tub and how it worked, and stressed I should look around and find out what fits me best, not pushy at all. He told me when I was ready and interested in the Bullfrog he would set up a wet test for us.
The bullfrog dealer was very professional, I sent my wife over to the tub dealer and she talked to one of the young pretty assistants, apparently they were just as knowledgable as the main salesman, while young and pretty they were very professional and impressed my wife.
All things being said, it was the attitude and the professionalism of the bulldog staff that earned them a wet test....still other dealers to venture out to.
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Bill...
You are very right...and while it has been raised by others and verified that it seems to take place all across the country those who are Master "fans" never address it....again it is not about bashing their spas.....at the "Spa Extravaganza"........errrrrrrrrr uhhhh I mean Master spa sale......the spas looked interesting somethings I liked somethings not.....but no more or no less than most others....but the sales people and the fact that I went thinking I was going to be able to some real shopping to compare other makers was such a turnoff.....
Mendo,
I am one of the "Master fans" that "never" addresses this issue only because it is not an issue which is happening "all across the country"....I've yet to experience one anywhere close to my part of the country. So why should I or any other "Master fan" address this issue? And since this forum is the only place I've even heard of this (mind you, I only read this and Doc's forums) and since I value the opinions of yourself and others here that share similar opinions of this, I would truly like to see not only the show itself but the advertising leading to the show. If the ads purport "spas from many manufacturers" and indeed only MS shows, then I'd consider deception on the promoter's part, whether it is corporate MS or some regional sales person or an individual retailer. I guess before I can address this, I need to take a Missouri attitude (Show Me) and see it and the advertising for myself....maybe then I can, as a "Master fan", address it.
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Windsurfdog....
Do you think the people who tell about this are lying....or imagining it.....It might not happen in every city but from where I am here on the west coast to Pool boy on the east.....to MI where Mowgil1 is from among others it does happen...Do you think myself or others have a vendetta against Master spas they are not sold in my area unless it is at a show...and as you can read here and I guess on Doc's board the story is the same....I can only guess based my experience that perhaps they promote this type of show in larger more populated city's as they are big events and do need to move a lot of spas to make them worth doing....But unless you think people conspired to make this stuff up....It does happen....Wow in writing this I wanted to check on something and there are having another show here this weekend... you can call 1 800 spa sale now I was told....it is sponsored by Master Spas and that Sunbelt, Free flow and tough spas will be there a bit different than last years show where it promoted as having Caldera and Coleman there among others...the reason it really got me last year was I had not seen a Coleman and was looking forward to it...when I asked the sales person where everyone else was I was told that once they found out that we (as in Master) were going to be there, all the others pulled out because they can not compete.....
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If you are from Missouri you could have caught the MS show in Kansas City in late Jan. After I put down my dep. in Novi Mi I tried to contact my salesperson the next week and that is where he was setting up a show. In fact every time I try to contact him he is somewhere putting on a show.
The guy who runs these shows owns master spa of Michigan. On their website they claim to be the largest retailer of spas in the United States.
When I was wavering on my decision to buy I asked if they would be back for the pool and spa show at the same site in Novi the weekend of April 1. He replied no, because that date was in the middle of the season. Since this is the only show in metro Detroit totally dedicated to pools and spas, I thought this was odd since they have a store one block away from the show site. After seeing how they operate it doesn't seem odd anymore. They own two stores in the Detroit area and run these shows from there. I know you're not from Missouri , just joking.
Trust me these shows exist
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here you go
http://www.poolandspashow.com/coupon.php
now go and look and take note of the drop down for what brand of spa you are looking for and look at the names mentioned..... yet none will be at the show.....this is just a small example of why it is so misleading....if you look at the show pictures....can anyone see anything but a master spa....maybe I missed it if it is there
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Give it a shot Windy! Its always best to see it for yourself when you're skeptical.
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First things first.....
Mendo,
I'm very sorry that you took my last post as skepticism about the truth of what you and others were talking about....in no way did I doubt your sincerity/integrity. If the first part of my post put you off and prevented the second part of the post from communicating my thoughts, then I apologize for not making the first part more palatable. Yes my feathers were a little ruffled when you said that "Master fans" never address this issue. It's no secret that I am a Master fan (what else should I be if I buy an MS spa that operates perfectly and fulfills my expectations 100%?) but I honestly have not seen anything regarding this promotion until today except for the comments on this board. A list of cities included in upcoming events (Cleveland, Ohio, Toledo, Ohio, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Chicago, Illinois, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Anaheim, California, Pomona, California, Green Bay, Wisconsin, Salt Lake City, Utah,
Denver, Colorado, San Diego, California, Long Beach, California, San Jose / Bay Area, California, Las Vegas, Nevada) are nowhere near the southeast much less Florida hence my lack of exposure.
I perused not only the coupon but the rest of the site as well. I also called the 800 number and listened to the message. Let me first say that I am not here trying to defend this particular retailer's mode of operation (it does appear to me that this is a singular MS retailer as mowgli states) and I am attempting to look at this as objectively as possible.
I saw nothing on the site which stated which manufacturers would be in attendance. The dropdown box on the coupon did not state that the included manufacturers would be attending the show yet, in context, it could lead one to believe that those manufacturers would be present. I've seen sleazier advertising than that but, indeed, it could be misleading but nowhere on that site does it mention which manufacturers would attend. If subsequent local advertising states differently, then that would be misleading. If anyone can forward any local advertising for any of the upcoming events, I'd like to see it.
I think what we have here is a retailer that has decided to hawk not only MS spas but also pools, gazebos and saunas in a traveling road show. I just don't see how this whole operation can be attributed to corporate MS, which is the debate here, correct? Yes, MS is listed as a "National Sponsor" but what does that mean in this context?
As far as the comments like "they pulled out because they could not compete".....that is just 1 person running their mouth and trying to make a sale. Is it truthful? Most probably not. Does it represent any more than 1 person trying to make a sale? Probably not.
So that's my take. Will I throw out my LSX if MS is found to be this huge black cloud? Probably not. But if this is just an overzealous retailer looking for a sale, then all of this MS bashing is moot.......
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Thanks Dog,
no worries...One thing I will share is that last year they did mention the others who would be there on the same site I put the link to....I do not think this is a local dealer but a Master factory show....the size and rental for the site would not allow very many local retailers to put on such a show....The Pomona and Anaheim shows are no more than 30 minutes apart....I think the team moves from site to the next...a more effective move as far as costs I am sure...I do want to say once again that I have no doubt that they make a nice spa...When I went to the show last year I was not a dealer but a genuine shopper and I did think I was going to see all the different lines of spas there......You are right about the salesperson and there answer they were more stories I could share about what I was told..things that just make you go hummmm....but the bottom line is that I am sure they make a good spa and for many like yourself it was the best choice....but they do seem to market things that in ways that many question...
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.....And the plot thickens....
That "One retailer" you mention Windy is the National sales director for Master spas named Tim Baele. He has design and set up Masters sales tracks, programs and shows for a few years now. He also sets up dealerships retaining a percentage of ownership for himself. He is a very canny guy that absolutely knows how to drive traffic regardless of whether it is truthful or not.
The "National Sponsors" listed on the site are also misleading. Master Spa is of course a national sponsor, Tuff Pools know nothing about their supposable sponsorship and Bestspas.net and Hottub101 are both sites set up by a Master spa dealer in CA that I believe is Tim's brother. All of the info on those sites is skewed to make Master stand out and there is no independent documentation to prove any of the claims!
I would think that your experience with your spa and your dealer would warrant you never changing spas however, no one is questioning the product here but the ethics of the company. This does not reflect on you or your dealer so you should feel no need to defend anything. With so many of us stating the same things I would think that constantly challenging that would be pointless unless they attack you or your dealer personally and quite frankly my friend...If they start attacking you personally I'm jumping in on your side 8)
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Here is the coupon I posted the link to i......here is what you get for it...I pasted.....it...by the way I choose Hot Springs as the Brand I was looking for.....but here is what you coupon was for
POOL AND SPA
SHOW
Present this Coupon at the
Spa Pool and Patio Show
&
Health, Fitness & Travel Show
January 7, 8 & 9
And recieve
a
Value Package with purchase from the Master Spas Booth
To Windsurf.....
Truly and with all sincerity I am very happy for you and that you like your spa the way that you do...I hope that it gives you great service for many years to come....these posts were never intended to take away from the Spa Master builds.....but it started with a Master dealer who claimed to be the largest in his area telling absolute lies about another line....and it turned into some of the things that Master does to promote their spas.....again I do not think you will find anyone here Saying they build a poor spa....but the shows are something they do and in "my experience" with them, they were misleading......I wish you the best Dog.......enjoy your Hot water....
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One thing's for sure, every time the name Master Spas is written or spoken, the brand recognition increases. The apparent controversy certainly piques the curiousity.
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One thing's for sure, every time the name Master Spas is written or spoken, the brand recognition increases. The apparent controversy certainly piques the curiousity.
I've never seen a Master but from what I've read here, the quaity seems to be good and most owners are happy with the product.
But the above quote sounds like an advertising campaign from the pages of the wacky Arjuna. ;D
Steve
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With all due respect JP, I wasn't trying to slander or put down your company in any way shape or form. I was simply making an observation. I have never said that Arctic nor master Spa makes a bad product. However, time and time again, the actions of a few individual dealers(reguardless of brand b/c it happens with almost all of them) has hurt the reputations of reputable manufactuers. Unfortunately it seems that the same brands are repeatedly mentioned by consumers who have had issues with dealers.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Spas Dealer
I agree, however, I have heard as many stories of unprofressional behaviour throughout the forums. I do agree that a few can have a great impact on the image of a company. My point is that I have not seen that there are more about Arctic then any other product.
We do our best to educate all of our dealers to sell our product based on it's merits rather then negatively sell against the competition. However, as I am sure you know, it is virtually impossible to control what every salesman may say. I can only hope they will all conduct themselves professionally. In fact, I wish that of all salespeople within our industry, as it will only raise the image of our whole industry.
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Well put JP
Spahappy :D
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Wohhhhh JP you have always represented your product with proffesionalism, but, that doesn't mean all the dealers of the brand you sell have and that's where the horror stories come from.
In your next training seminar tell your dealers to back off on the pedestal they are trying to put your brand on and sell it based on comfort, reliability, and customer support. Rather than superiority, and the "what makes sence" line.
Words from a consumer that has listened to all the major brands sales pitch including yours. And has been in purchasing for 20+ years.
Advice heard and taken to heart. I appreciate your candor.
James