Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: smartymose on February 21, 2005, 10:32:17 am
-
We have been researching and wet testing diligently and we have narrowed our choices down. One of our choices is the Caldera Niagra, which we like for a number of reasons, size for our family (family of 5) , comfort, jet features, positive feedback on them from this board, etc.
One thing that we are hesitant on is the longevity of the dealer. I know that dealer relationship is a key component of our decision process. But here's the thing....he has been in the business for over 15 years, servicing and selling. He has gone through a number of manufacturers and has been selling Caldera for 1 year. The manufacturers that he has gone through are not considered top tier. I get the impression that he is knowledgeable about the industry and technical side. My issue is he is short on help, he himself was doing service calls because of this, initially hard to get a hold of, his showroom was bare...looked like a construction zone/temporary housing., ceiling tiles missing, empty floor space (where he said he sold some floor models). He said that he was in the process of hiring.
Another Caldera dealer is over 1 hour away, but heard from another source that the line willl be pulled from him and given to a Hotspring dealer.
Is this too much drama to deal with? Liked the features/functions and price given what we would like to spend and value we would get.
I plan to call Caldera HQ and get their take on it regarding warranties, service, etc. Not sure if they would be willing to shed any light on our concerns,, but worth a shot, right?
Opinions welcomed.
Thanks for the insight!
-
I plan to call Caldera HQ and get their take on it regarding warranties, service, etc. Not sure if they would be willing to shed any light on our concerns,, but worth a shot, right?
Usually people have questions after visiting the dealer and having some time to think things over and sometimes they are hesitant to go back and lay on the table what their concerns are. Give them a call and if you use a 1-800 number its a free!
-
Bottom line for me...would simply be do you think the dealer is reputable... if you do than don't worry that his showroom is not as pretty as some...and about the other things....If he is going to take care of you after the sale... than in the end that is what really matters most......
-
had the same kind of issue with the local marquis dealer in my area. been in biz for years but with many different companys, and also looked to be a very low budget showroom. i would recommend asking for references (some at least 2 yrs old) to get an idea of how his service, and how he treats his customers. caldera is a great brand, and if you have a hot springs dealer there, you may even get them to help with service, worst case senario being the dealer you are looking at loses the caldera line.
ironically last fri afternoon, after much searching also, and lots of reading and wet testing. we chose the niagra also (wet tested 3 different times) for very similar reasons, 4 kids, features, etc..... so i think you will be very happy with the tub.
i got lucky i guess as the same company here has been here over 20 years and has sold hot springs, and tiger river for most of those years at one location, and added caldera at its own store several years ago.
good luck!
-
It sounds to me like you have found a guy who might not be the world's greatest businessman, but he has managed to stay in business by hook or by crook for 15-years. That seems to indicate a strong desire to be in the spa business. You said he is knowledgable and we all know that Caldera is top notch. You say he has gone through some lesser brands, but now has one of the very best lines. Here too, this seems to underline his commitment to the business. His showroom is not where you are going to be enjoying your spa, so that factor perhaps is not really a big deal?
Caldera is a very, very good product line and Watkins would not appoint this dealer if he was not prompt in paying for product and servicing his customers. Believe me these are important issues for any good manufacturer.
My verdict, buy the Caldera and enjoy.
Regards,
Bill
-
I would find out how long have been comitted to Caldera. Caldera is a nitch spa anyway. Hot Springs puts them out for customers with a tight budget. If you are on a budget take a good look at Sweetwater Spas. They are the best bang for your dollar.
-
Caldera is a nitch spa anyway. Hot Springs puts them out for customers with a tight budget.
Whoa! I know that Caldera was in business before HotSpring bought them. After having hung around here and a couple of other boards for over a year now, Caldera was one of the top choices, even then. Where do you get this from?
From some of your other posts, I get the sense that you are trying to bash other brands. Why? Sundance is a great product, too, but the above statement seems way out of place.
Just an opinion!
-
lori,
I think what surf is trying to say is that the Caldera line doesn't get the respect that the PARENT spa, hot springs does.
I personally don't think Masco has given this line alot of attention either. That doesn't say it is not a worthy spa line, but they don't market it like the Hot Spring. I don't feel that there was any bashing, remember, we each have our own opinion. ;D
-
Watkins does give Caldera alot of attention and marketing, BUT they also think of Caldera as a SEPERATE entity. If you look at Hot Springs website you'll also see that they mention their other brands of spas as well (Solana, Hot Spot, & Tiger River) except caldera. Watkins is trying to Build Caldera up as a seperate brand of spa, even though it is mostly made in the same plant as their other brands. In Fact many of the same higher ups in the company who work with watkins other brands of spas also work on the caldera side as well (i.e. sales training, marketing, etc..).
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 and Caldera Dealer
-
poolboy,
Is that why the Caldera brand has been seperated from the Hot Spring brand? If so, that makes sense. Hot Spring is a well made product, so they are trying to bring the Caldera up to speed on it's own. OK,... I can see that now.
Caldera has been around for quite some time, I sold them back in the mid 80's, it was a decent spa back then also. I enjoyed working with the people at the factory. When I see them at shows, we still laugh at the tile borders that were available in the line. Anyway, thanks for the update. ;D
-
No Prob, anytime ;D
And reguarding this "niche" spa allegation.........That's pretty bogus considering Watkins has the line setup just like all of their other lines of spas with a tiered approach (good, better, best if you will) with prices ranging from $4000-$10,000. Guess that fills A LOT of niches now huh???
-
I will add that Watkins generally wants a Caldera dealer to sell only Caldera, and HS dealers to sell the HotSpring/ Tiger River /Solana grouping. The Hot Spot line can go either way or both.
There are many HotSpring dealers who are opening new stores to carry Caldera, and they enjoy good support, marketing, training, and a complete line that spans the price points from top to bottom.
-
Chas,
I guess Watkins is now allowing Caldera to be handled by the Hot Spring dealer. ??? Don't you think it will be a little confusing to the prospect when the Watkins dealer has both of these lines on the same floor? How would they be positioned? You don't want to say, "this is our high end and this is not". Any thoughts...
-
lori,
I think what surf is trying to say is that the Caldera line doesn't get the respect that the PARENT spa, hot springs does.
I personally don't think Masco has given this line alot of attention either. That doesn't say it is not a worthy spa line, but they don't market it like the Hot Spring. I don't feel that there was any bashing, remember, we each have our own opinion. ;D
Ok, maybe they don't get the respect. Although, I have heard only great things about Caldera since I started posting on this site. My problem was the fact he said Caldera is a "niche spa for customers on a budget". That to me is a slam on Caldera. (whether it was before Watkins bought them, or after) I don't own a Caldera, there wasn't a dealer close enough to me, but I found that to be a pretty harsh statement. Besides, from prices that have been posted, they seem to be in line with HotSpring's pricing (depending on area).
I know we all have opinions! ;D You know what they say about opinions ::)
;)
-
Chas,
I guess Watkins is now allowing Caldera to be handled by the Hot Spring dealer. ??? Don't you think it will be a little confusing to the prospect when the Watkins dealer has both of these lines on the same floor? How would they be positioned? You don't want to say, "this is our high end and this is not". Any thoughts...
You position them as two seperate brands, that are of high quality. We have them right along side Dimension One Spas. We find that they compliment each other. Each brand offers something different, yet at the same time they are both very similar. I'd also like to point out that for some salespeople who are accustomed to selling one brand of spas that bringing in a second line by another manufacturer can take some time to get used to. Many of us have biases toward one brand over another due to having sold only that brand for x ammount of years. If this obstacle is overcomed though, having two different brands in the same price category can be very successful. I'm sure Stuart, wetone, and hottubman can attest to this.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
-
Jason,
I am sure the Caldera brand is high quality. My thought on this was just that of a WATKINS dealer. In order to sell both brands on the same floor, I felt it would be a little difficult to position the Caldera brand as an equal, that's all. Am I way out of the loop here??? I know that as a Sundance dealer, we cannot position the Sweetwater line as an equal.
-
I would say that the aquatic Melodies and Utopia Series spas in the Caldera Line would be on par with Hot Spring Spas. They are in the same price ranges. Also the Paradise series would be equal to the Tiger River line of spas. This is merely my opinion.
-
poolboy,
That is what I'm talking about. How can a Watkins dealer have these spas on the same floor with Hot springs at the same price. It doesn't make sense, does it??
-
Talked to Caldera HQ today and they said that in the event of this dealer going under/away, they would find service folks, independent people, if needed, to service the Caldera. Any specific dealer/customer agreements even if written in the contract, would not be held up with a new service operation, such as no trip charges stated in the contract, etc. The warranty covers parts and labor - that's it.
They did give say that he has made orders, etc - nothing fancy. I asked for the next closest dealer and he was about 45-1 hour away been in business with Caldera for 2 years.
Just wanted to get you the feedback that I received.
Smarty
-
When I think of Caldera I think of the adage :
THE BITTERNESS OF POOR QUALITY REMAINS LONG AFTER THE SWEETNESS OF A LOW PRICE IS FORGOTTEN
Why buy a second rate spa?
Why dosen't Watkins promote and embrace Caldera?
-
Poor quality??? Where are you getting this from??? They are made the same way as watkins makes all of their other lines of spas!!!!!! In fact MANY of their design featurea are now being incorporated into the Hot Spring line. If it's a second rate spa, how come they are priced in the ball park as Hot Spring, Sundance, marquis and D-1??? And what exactly is your bone you have to pick with caldera???
-
There are much better spas in that price range, namely Sundance. How could anyone possibly shop Sundance and then think Caldera was a better choice ???
You will never get the comfort, performance and reliabilty from a Caldera that you get from a Sundance.
Smarty should put on his thinking cap!!! :o
-
When I think of Caldera I think of the adage :
THE BITTERNESS OF POOR QUALITY REMAINS LONG AFTER THE SWEETNESS OF A LOW PRICE IS FORGOTTEN
Why buy a second rate spa?
Why dosen't Watkins promote and embrace Caldera?
Ok, this qualifies for bashing, in my humble opinion!
-
Talked to Caldera HQ today and they said that in the event of this dealer going under/away, they would find service folks, independent people, if needed, to service the Caldera. Any specific dealer/customer agreements even if written in the contract, would not be held up with a new service operation, such as no trip charges stated in the contract, etc. The warranty covers parts and labor - that's it.
They did give say that he has made orders, etc - nothing fancy. I asked for the next closest dealer and he was about 45-1 hour away been in business with Caldera for 2 years.
Just wanted to get you the feedback that I received.
Smarty
Smarty, in my opinion, I don't think you can go wrong with Caldera!
Go for it!!!
-
Well, it looks like it's time to take off the gloves here. >:( I am sure Smarty will choose the best spa for his needs. And yes, there are many, including Caldera and Sundance.
I don't understand the quibbling between two professionals here. Is there a personal vendetta? We are talking about the relaxing mode of hot tubs, not a boxing match. :-/
Smarty, whatever you do, don't go into the D/C mode.
You will be shopping forever. ;D
-
There are much better spas in that price range, namely Sundance. How could anyone possibly shop Sundance and then think Caldera was a better choice ???
You will never get the comfort, performance and reliabilty from a Caldera that you get from a Sundance.
Smarty should put on his thinking cap!!! :o
Any evidence to support this claim??? Or back this opinion???
-
>There are much better spas in that price range, namely Sundance. How could anyone possibly shop Sundance and then think Caldera was a better choice...<
Well I did, and I do. For me, my needs, my preferences. There are also several other very good brands on the market. One might be better for some people, others might like something else. There is no single brand of spas that is THE BEST. Sundance makes wonderful spas, don't misunderstand, but I definitely prefered Caldera when I tried both back to back. I still suggest that others try Sundance, and Marquis, and HotSpring for example.
-
In other words, keep on open mind.
Brewman
-
Chas,
I guess Watkins is now allowing Caldera to be handled by the Hot Spring dealer. ???
No, not normally. Yes, there are exceptions, but I just had a meeting with the VP in charge of National Development, and he said they really don't want both on the same salesfloor. Don't you think it will be a little confusing to the prospect when the Watkins dealer has both of these lines on the same floor? How would they be positioned? You don't want to say, "this is our high end and this is not". Any thoughts...
It would be similar to having HotSpring and Sundance. Both are good products, you just have to show off the benefits and features, explain the differences and similarities, and then throw them in for a wet test.
-
But Sundance and Hot Spring spas are two different manufacturers. Caldera and Hot Spring are not. How can you claim quality issues with one phylosophy during a presentation and contradict it with the other.
I know there are dealers out there that are not having any problems selling both of these lines on the same floor and god bless you if you are, I guess it would be like Sundance and Sweetwater on the floor. BUT, they are positioned as one with more or better features than the other ???
-
But Sundance and Hot Spring spas are two different manufacturers. Caldera and Hot Spring are not. How can you claim quality issues with one phylosophy during a presentation and contradict it with the other.
I know there are dealers out there that are not having any problems selling both of these lines on the same floor and god bless you if you are, I guess it would be like Sundance and Sweetwater on the floor. BUT, they are positioned as one with more or better features than the other ???
Why wouldn't having Hot Springs and Caldera on the same floor the the same as having like Hot Springs and Sunadance on the same floor? The only way it wouldn't is if you're a negative seller that plays one spa up at the expense of the other in their sales pitch, but that's a poor sales approach.
-
But Sundance and Hot Spring spas are two different manufacturers. Caldera and Hot Spring are not.
Ford owns Jaguar, but I wouldn't compare my Taurus to a
(http://www.jaguarusa.com/us/en/vehicles/xk/overview/introduction_BDDEFB7C-82C7-4E10-AB68-42E8F1BE30BD_99x144.jpg)
No - Caldera and HotSpring are not the same. In spite of being owned by the same corporation, they remain two very distictively different lines. I hold to my a$$ertion that it is more like having HS and SD on the floor. Just because they are owned by the same company don't think that they are going to be the same. A close look at the actual tubs shows otherwise.
Blowers
Fiberglass backing
Type of insulation
Siding
Jet numbers and
Jet types
Filtration
Control systems
Ozone systems
Seating configurations
Way Diverters are implemented
Marketing
Price point distribution
Marketing areas/regions
Are all different - and there are more. They are both good tubs, but in different ways.
:)
-
Alright, already, you made your point. I just find it a little more difficult to sell 2 different lines on the same floor. It does make sense the way that you explained it.
Listen,.. on our conference to the islands, we will discuss it over a cold one 8)
Thanks...
-
Look at this way...............For example: No matter how great hot spring spas(or insert another brand here) are, they aren't for everyone and not everyone likes them. So if you only sell hot spring, you're potentially losing out on those customers. By offering another line (even if it's in the same price, feature & quality category) can only serve to benefit your potential customers and ultimately your business.
-
We often make comparisons to the auto industry. When I was young a dealer carried on make and that was it. Now we have a couple of dealers in town who carry Ford and GM as other such different models. One even has several on the same lot.
I guess no matter how superior one brand is nobody will ever get 100% of the market share so someone will try to get as close as possible.
-
OK......Did you see my post,...you made your point, alright, already!!!!! :o
-
OK......Did you see my post,...you made your point, alright, already!!!!! :o
One more point for you hottubber...
Just Kidding ;D ;D ;D
-
OK......Did you see my post,...you made your point, alright, already!!!!! :o
You didn't say Uncle!
-
that's why the conference that we SHOULD put together should happen,,,,,, ,UNCLE! :-[
And, they wonder why I drink? :P
Where are those platform shoes???
-
I sell HotSprings Spas. We will be opening a Caldera location soon. Caldera & HotSprings , stylistically different technically the same. Maybe a Caldera is a better "fit" and with that in mind I will send any prospective customers, still looking, to the Caldera store with confidence.
Service? Checking with previous customers is a good idea. Buying a Caldera should ease those concerns. Finally- the dealer willing to sell "out of their area" lacks integrity.
-
Finally- the dealer willing to sell "out of their area" lacks integrity.
I would love to agree with you, but for one thing. I have a dealer a couple hundred miles away who sells into my area all the time. Drives me crazy because he drops his price to steal the sale, even knowing that it will cost him more to deliver and start it up, and if service is needed, that will also cost him more. I have told customers that he will charge a mileage fee, only to find out he is NOT, and was in fact using that to make me sound like a liar. (that's been cleared up, btw)
But the bottom line is: as much as I can't stand losing sales to this guy, he does service his out-of-area customers. He may take a few days longer to get something on the schedule, but he shows up. And, he lives up to the letter of the law - if not the spirit of the law- regarding the contract he signed with Watkins to 'not actively market outside of" his home territory. So I really can't impugn his integrity.
In fact, I'm going to start doing the very same thing to him....
;D
-
Did you buy the Caldera spa from this very busy person?
If you haven't bought it yet, sit down with the owner, look him in the eyes, and express all of your concerns to him.
Make sure you are listening to the responses with more than your ears.
Good Luck
-
No, not normally. Yes, there are exceptions, but I just had a meeting with the VP in charge of National Development, and he said they really don't want both on the same salesfloor.
It would be similar to having HotSpring and Sundance. Both are good products, you just have to show off the benefits and features, explain the differences and similarities, and then throw them in for a wet test.
Hmm - There are two dealers in CT that I visited that sell both Hot Springs and Caldera. There are plenty of differences between the two brands to be able to carry them on the same floor at the same time.
IM not sure why Watkins wouldnt want to promote both products together ??
As for comparing spas and cars - it would be more like comparing Chevy Trucks and GMC Trucks....same parent manufacturer....but with a little cosmetic difference between the two..