Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Vito on February 13, 2005, 12:25:01 am
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Greetings everyone and thank you all in advance for your help. Generally i like to read all reviews before posting - but due to a sale i just don't have the time and need your help.
Looking to purchase a new spa and need your input.
I am from the midwest and have been to 3 dealers in my area. Here is what i have and understand:
All prices include delivery/setup/cover - electrical extra
1. Royal Spa EmperorII (found not-so-good reviews) not crazy about baffles of bagged insulation. $6245
2. HotSpring (seems like an awesome spa, need more info)
3. Sundance ( Altamar 2004 - $6999 & Cameo 2005 $8999) 5 year warrany - also appears to be an awesome spa.
4. Sweetwater (by Sundance) - Palermo 2005 - $6399. 3 year warranty. looks very much like the Marin
Other brands in my area i have not researched include:
Demension One, Saratoga, Colemen, San Juan, Vita, PDC and Catalina
I have family members who have Hotspring's and love them. The dealer we went to today had the Hot Spring, Sundance and Sweetwater lines.
My guess is i cannot go wrong with the Hot Spring or the Sundance. Your thoughts? What about the Sweetwater line? I understand they are made by Sundance but is a lower line (of sorts) with a 3 year warrenty rather than the 5 year found on the branded Sundance line.
As for the other brands, i just don't have the time to research them all (wet test, etc) as in my area everyone is clearing out the older models this month (so i must rely on the reviews i have read here).
I guess i am looking for pro's and con's between the Hot Spring, Sundance and Sweetwater line as well as any input for (or against) the other brands i have listed. I am looking for something that is not top-of-the line nor bargin-basement, but something that is well built, stands up against our winters and doesn't break down.
Again thank you for such an awesome board and your help.
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HotSpring is the leader. They have sold more tubs than any other maker. Sundance is a good tub. Tiger River wasn't mentioned, but they are made on the very same production line as HotSpring, and carry exactly the same warranty - with the one exception being the siding.
Wet test!
Also, most dealers should give you the chance to put a couple hundred down to hold a spa for a fixed amount of time. That tends to take the pressure off.
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I have owned a Hot Springs for 11 years and I would but another one in a heart beat . I have had 2 problems in 11 years fixed by myself with the help of this board.
The biggest factor in picking a H.S. tub when I did was the month to month cost to operate the tub. Hot Springs puts it in writing what it should cost and it was very close at least for me.
Good luck Ivan
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Vito,
A spa sale? Take your time and research, wet test, and negotiate better prices. Dealers use the word sale along with your emotions to make quick sales. A couple weeks of negotiating and I gaurantee you will have a lower sales price then their 'sale'.
Last year, I had a deal for a 04 Cameo or Optima for 7800 (including 6% tax) with cover, steps, led lights, extra filters, scents, etc. I was shooting for 7000 to 7500. I lost interest hearing all the stories how expensive it is to make/sell a spa, sons/daughters have to go to college, etc, etc. Just remember, spas have a huge markup (hard to tell exact #s) and are considerd a luxury item and dealers take advantage of that fact. As proof, ask any dealer to show their invoice and they will hem and haw and refuse. Dont get me wrong, I believe they should make a profit but when they refuse to be honest and show me the true #s, I become very suspicious.
Anyway, to make my story short, you should be able to get an optima or cameo for 8k total. Dont be trapped into buying during a 'sale.'
DC
ps - home, water, etc shows are NOT the best time to buy spas. Again, dealers are banking on your emotions of the moment to make sales at normal high retail prices. Negotiate and time are your best friends in making a great deal. Good luck!
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dazed,
You're right about one thing here, take your time and make an educated decision. That is it!
I don't believe that dealers make too much money when selling spas. They are in business just like your doctor or dentist, would you shop around to get the best deal on a doctor? I forgot,... you may. You could be having a heart attack, but because the price isn't right, you would wait to get a lower price from the doctor. Get off of the lowest price syndrom, it is not always about price. Remember one thing here, it is the DEALER that you need to put your trust in for the duration of the ownership of your spa. Should you continue to chop his or her margasins, they won't be able to be there when you need them. WE, dealers, are just looking for a decent living just like you.
PS, don't take any of this personally, I am just trying to make a point. LOL ;) It is not always about price...
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Thanks for the input everyone and i totally understand where everyone is coming from. I may have been a bit over zelous with the fact about a sale. Believe me, my wife hats the fact that i actual do research too much. Esp for something like this where we are making a large purchase for years of enjoyment to come. I promise this will not be a rushed deal on my part.
With that said. the sale deal thing was not at a show. This time of year the dealers here are clearing out the 04 models so, if i can get a good deal on one, i'd like to take advantage of the savings. I was thinking about spending $6000 give/take not knowing what prices go for.
1. Is $6999 a good price for the Sundance Altamar (04)
2. Is there any significant differences between the Sundance and Hot Spring's (besides jet configuration etc.) I.E. construction, warranty, repair history
3. Is the SweetWater a good tub (3 year warr only, or is it worth it to have the 5 year warranty?
After my wife and i talked about it last night, we will be finding a dealer who has the tub's we are interested in for wet testing. You all are right, comfort, fit and feel will be 99% of our enjoyment in the tub, i just am looking to cover other aspects which i may not be familuar with or missing here.
Thanks again.
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Dazed;
Why get into this margin thing again. Besides automobiles (they dont show you the real cost BTW, 9% barely covers their advertising and sales commision, if it does that), name one industry that will show their invoice? Furniture? Food? Electronics? Appliances? NOPE!
Like it has been said before, if you expect to see the invoice, you should also expect to see all the books to understand all of the costs the dealer has.
You too should then be prepared to show your pay stub and bank statements. If you think you have the right to determine the margin, you should agree the dealer has the right to decide what you can afford.
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1. Is $6999 a good price for the Sundance Altamar (04)
2. Is there any significant differences between the Sundance and Hot Spring's (besides jet configuration etc.) I.E. construction, warranty, repair history
3. Is the SweetWater a good tub (3 year warr only, or is it worth it to have the 5 year warranty?
Vito;
I am a Canadian dealer of different brands. That price seems inline with what I have seen. I think a Sundance dealer or owner in the US would be better suited to answer on that question.
Both HS and Sundance make fine products. If you can afford one of those over the Sweetwater, I would say get one of those. The warranty is part of the price difference, but there is more to it.
I would also recommend that you look at some of the other brands on that list you gave. You are skipping some very good products. I sell and am a fan of both the Dimension 1 and Coleman brands. I haven't heard much about the others you mentioned. That could be takenas a +/-.
HTM
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Thanks HottubMan. That is what i was looking for. Also thanks to the rest for pushing the issue of wet testing. Wife and I looked at the D1 and colmen today. Did not care for the D1 but the Colmen's where very nice. Just wish the Max line was a bit larger in size. Then again i realize 90% of the time it will just be the 2 of us. Now that we are a bit more informed (mostly from staying up all night reading posts ;) we are going back to look at the HS and Sundance tomorrow and wet testing them, and then the colmen. So many choices, but as we learn more, we can ask the right questions. We have learned that what we are seeking is mainly for our own terapy and are looking at the models which focus on the back/neck/sholders. So far the Colmen is perfect in layout to achive that, but wet testing will for sure provide us with the fit and feel.
Again thanks for everyone's input. This is a board full of knowledge and resources and we thank you all!
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Let us know how your wet testing goes!
We tested the Hot Spring and Sundance tubs the same day (along with Marquis!) and it was a fun way to spend an afternoon!
In the end - we liked all three - there were enough good points and less desireable points about all three - that it would have been a "wash"! Ha ha ha... It came down to price, and the dealer. We love our dealer, they were great before, during and after the sale. They still know us by our first names - which we think is totally amazing.
Don't under-rate the dealer aspect - make sure you get a good feeling from whoever you choose. You are investing a decent amount of hard earned cash - in something that will give you many, many hours of fun, relaxation and probably some of the best conversation time you've ever imagined!
Have fun!
Jodi
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vito,
The price that you were quoted on a 2004 Altamar is a
reasonable one. What accessories were included with it?
The Sundance line is a good quality line. As with any
brand, there may be problems. Make sure the dealer
that you are working with has a service department,
that is more important than the price of the spa.
Some prospects put way too much time and effort in
getting the absolute lowest price when, what is more
important is the dealer in which you finally decide on.
Another thing you should do before you purchase, WET
TEST, make sure you are comfortable in your selection,
not only with price and dealer, but with the seating
arrangement also. Good luck in your search, ;D ;D
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Vito get a Vita.....just kidding.... ;D
I have owned my HS Landmark for approx 2 years now and I would not trade it for the world. You are definitely on the right track with the brands you are looking at and with a wet test or two one of them will jump out at you and then that will be the best spa for you.
Personally I would say don't worry about a spa being too big even if it is just going to be you and your wife most of the time. You will appreciate the extra roomwhen it is just the two of you and especially when you do entertain.
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Hi All, Just wet-tested the Colemen Line of tubs. Wow what an experience. We tested the 471, 482 and the 705. I can tell you right away the 705 blew us away. We did not like the head rests on the 471 or the 482. I just could not get comfortable.
Pros:
The 705 we loved because each seat actually focused on specific parts of our body. When we got out if felt like we just had a full body message!! Both lounges where comfy and no floating. The corner chair had jets that hit the top and bottom of the arm all at the same time. Nice additions are the LED color-changing lights, cup-holders by both lounges, ozone (canister type - not bulb), arm rests higher (and form-fitted to the body) and 3 pumps all for $7995.
Cons:
The only drawback was the the head-rest's kept popping off. Anyone else with this issue, or was it just becuase this tub saw so much use?
The largest Colemen dealer in our state is where we went. i was surprised that they didn't actually deliver/support the colemen however. They actually have colemen certified people come out, setup and service. Now they have been in business a long time and dealing with colemen for 10 years, i just thought this was odd? Thoughts, comments? The sales guy was awesome and said that if customers are having a hard time with issue, they will step in and help, but not sure if that was a good arrangement or not!
Tomorrow we are testing the HS and Sundance lines.
A few questions about the colemen though:
1. What is the deal with this programmable filter system? Can someone explain how this works and what is different about this vurses other types that always filter?
2. Are there any pro's/con's to this type of system. Seems confusing than other tubs out there.
3. Do others have issues with the head-rest's popping off?
I have been looking on the web at the designs of many tubs, and i have not found the zone thearapy like the colemen has. Are there any tubs that focus on the arms like the colemen. The corner seat had 3 jets for the under-side of the arm and jets on tub firing down on the top of the arm. I have not found any other tubs with a design like this, if if i did, would love to know about them.
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HotSpring has the 'zone' massage system as well. No, they don't call it that (or anything) but it works the same. Here's how they do it: no two seats are alike. Some focus on the neck and shoulders, others on the upper back. Still others focus on the mid and lower back. Then there are still other seats which do legs, feet and ankles.
If this is important to you, you may have to look for it in the HotSpring. As I said, they don't make a big deal out of it, and your local dealer may not be up to speed on it, so look for it yourself: TAKE TIME during your wet test to be sure to try all the possible combinations of jets, jet nozzles, jet pressure, etc.
And know this: most folks don't do the whole head-to-toe thing once they get a spa into the backyard. You will most likely get in, flip the diverters and pumps systems to your favorite settings, and move among a seat or two.
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The Coleman 705 is an awesome tub and the best price we could do is higher than what you were quoted.
I've sold the Coleman brand for over 10 years and I personally have a 2004 Coleman 706 in my backyard. In fact, thats where I drank my coffee this morning.
The zone therapy happened when Coleman went to a spine rehabilatation center and involved them in the engineering process. They totally revamped the placement of the jets in the 400 and 700 series tubs.
This is how the programable filter cycles work. When you put power to the tub for the first time on the first fill it will default to factory preset times which are 3 hrs. at 2:00pm and 3 hrs again at 2:00am. The set temp will default to 100 and be in the standard mode. These fitler time are very easy to change from the topside control. They have a memory so when you drain and refill it will keep your preset filter times but you'll have to reset your clock. Pump one is the filtration pump but pumps two and three will come on during the second filtration period on high to purge the water from those line..This all happens automatically, once you have set it you'll realize how simple the program is.
As far as the pillow issue sometime early in 2004 Coleman changed the pillows completely on the 700 series. My spa has the new style and They've never popped out. You can tell the birthday of the tub by the serial number. If you're dealing on a spa pre feb.2004 I'd say you've got the old style pillows on there.
We talk alot about warranty here. Did you know that Coleman has a full 5 years on their jets,air controls, plumbing, electrical, parts, and laber...3 years on the ozone, 3 years on the fiber optic bundle, 3 years on the duramax maintence free cabinet. 7 years surface and a lifetime on the galvalume steel frame.
One of the things I would have a hard time giving up in my spa is the back control panel. I operate my spa from that back panel at least 95% of the time. This eliminates the need to leave your seat to adjust the pumps from on to off and high to low. You can also turn the white light on and off and change the levels from high, medium, low.
Pay attention to how quiet the Coleman spas are. Thats a added benifit of their thermal lock insulation.
I'm so excited you got to try the 705. Many times if we have someone who doesn't quite fit comfortably in the 400 series we move them into the 700 series and they love the fit and power of the tub.
Good luck on your additional wet tests and let me know if I can answer any questions for you.
Spahappy :D
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UPDATE:
Just wet tested the HS and the Sundance Cameo. Both great tubs. very roomy. Loved some of the jets on the HS and others on the Cameo. Can't make up our minds :'(
The power of both tubs was nice but the sundance seemed to have a bit more. The one corner set when set full on nearly blew me right out of the seat. Had to use my feet to keep me in place.
After wife and i talked however, i think our favorate is still the colemen. When we tested the colemen - it just felt like we received a whole body massage, i just didn't get that in either the HS or the Sundance. Both tubs have more room per se than the colemen, but reflecting on that thought - well 95% of the time it will be just for the 2 of us anyway.
Some of you may may not like what comes next (so don't read it - lol) at $7995 (for a 2005), colemen comes with the colored lights, ozone, cover, chem, front and back remotes (and 1 wireless floating remote), delivered and setup.
The 2005 Cameo is $8999 for everything above (minus the wireless remote, but adding the backlit waterfall) and $300~$500 for canister type ozone makeing it $9500 tub.
WE have some talking to do, and part of me wants to test more tubs, but the other part of me says if i have found something i like, get it. (ok not like, we love the colemen). At some point in time i will have to say enough is enough because by the time i try wet testing the 50th tub, i will have forgotten what the last 45 felt like - lol.
I'll keep you all updated on what we do. I think we are going back to wet test the colemen again .... dazed and confused..........
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If you've found the tub you like (I mean love) then I think it's time to stop shopping and buy your tub and get it home. :)
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Wet testing again is a solid idea! The second time around you will fall even harder for your perfect choice!
I did!!!
Good luck!
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Vito,
We're talking $1000.00 to $1500.00 difference between the spa you love and the two you like alot.
BUY IT!
Remember the differences here the 705 has three 2.5hp 2-speed pumps for 53 completley adjustable jets.
Back control panel.(which you will come to love), standard.
Remote standard
Fiber optics inside and out standard
factory installed ozone standard
Toploading easy to access filter(one) and skimmer basket and first filter. standard
Steel frame lifetime warranty
Solid ABS pan bottom, critter proofe cabinet
7 years surface
5 years plumbing,(including jets and air controls) electrical, equipment, parts and labor.
3 years on the ozone,cabinet,fibor optics.
As a veteran Coleman dealer I can tell you they have great dealer support and thats why so many Coleman dealers have been in love with and selling them for so many years.
If you feel you need to be sure wet test again, and let us know how you feel when you're done.
The 705 and the 706 are at the top of the Coleman line and yet they're a terrific value in regards of therapy, comfort, and quality, and that price you negotiated for a 2005 is unbelivable to even myself.
Spahappy :D
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Vito,
We're talking $1000.00 to $1500.00 difference between the spa you love and the two you like alot.
BUY IT!
Remember the differences here the 705 has three 2.5hp 2-speed pumps for 53 completley adjustable jets.
Back control panel.(which you will come to love), standard.
Remote standard
Fiber optics inside and out standard
factory installed ozone standard
Toploading easy to access filter(one) and skimmer basket and first filter. standard
Steel frame lifetime warranty
Solid ABS pan bottom, critter proofe cabinet
7 years surface
5 years plumbing,(including jets and air controls) electrical, equipment, parts and labor.
3 years on the ozone,cabinet,fibor optics.
As a veteran Coleman dealer I can tell you they have great dealer support and thats why so many Coleman dealers have been in love with and selling them for so many years.
If you feel you need to be sure wet test again, and let us know how you feel when you're done.
The 705 and the 706 are at the top of the Coleman line and yet they're a terrific value in regards of therapy, comfort, and quality, and that price you negotiated for a 2005 is unbelivable to even myself.
Spahappy :D
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I think we are going back to wet test the colemen again .... dazed and confused..........
You have a LONG way to go before you've done enough to earn the coveted "dazed and confused" moniker.
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You got that right. He'd have to start by declaring that whatever a spa costs, it's too much, and that any given dealer in the universe can run their business by charging what he considers a fair markup. Then claim to have an offer on the table for a year.
That would be a start.
Brewman
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ok, ok ok!!! - lol
Thank's Spa and EVERYONE else, i truely mean it!. This has been an awesome experience, but like all good things, this part must come to an end. But the end, is just the start to a new begining. ... MUST READ
I know that we love this tub the best. Have tried a bunch of other spa's and this one stood out (for us). The wet test was what did it - otherwise by looks and ize, i may have not gone this route. Show's that Your comments about wet-testing paid off.
Apparantly the new model (05) will have a change. Besides the head-rest's does anyone know what other changes will be for the Coleman 705?
At any rate... the store i am at has 5-6 stores in our state. I called some out of state-stores to compare pricing. all in line around $8000. I walk in today (working with the same guy that we have been with and he says they had 4 tubs in the 705 left (2004 models). by the time i left, i got the last one. I saw it there right before me.
not the color i would choose (green with cin. case) but they sold the last 4 (tub and cover only - no lift, stairs, or chem) for $6000 (for the 04). that was bare tub, cover and delivered. All told i got the tub, cover, cover lift, chem, stairs, delivered and tax for $6707
HOLLY COW. they had a meeting yesterday and due to the new model change they wanted to clear out there stock. So during the summer that tubs retails for $9650, sale priced at $7995 and i got the tub for $6707
IT MUST BE CHRISTMAS ......Yah US!!!
It will be here next week. So now i need to dig up some grass and lay down some pea gravel and get the electric hooked in. So 2 weeks it should be ready to go. I will let you all know how it goes!!
Thanks again for everyone who posed to this tread and all other other great threads out there.
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You are gonna love this tub!
I'm happy for you and wish you the best weather, the best water, and the best install.
Spahappy :D
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Congratulations!
May you always have hot, bubbly, clean water!!!
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vito,
Congratulations on your new spa purchase. Keep in touch regarding your blissful soaks under the stars.
It seems that you've landed the spa of your choice.
Hottubber ;D
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Enjoy -
Well, enjoy it when it gets there, that is....
;D ;D