Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Drewski on December 20, 2004, 10:38:35 am
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Hi All:
Well, predictably, 2 months after the 5 year warranty ran out on my Artesian Piper Glen, I have a problem.
I noticed a few weeks ago that during colder weather, the tub couldn't "recover" temperature like it used to. Previously, regardless of weather conditions, water temperature would ALWAYS remain where I set it, between 103 and 104 degrees. About a week ago, it dropped to 99 when I had a bunch of friends over (brrrrr...) and last night (25 degrees with 30 mph wind) it started to drop again.
I checked the circulation pump output (heater circuit), which "felt" normal, but then I noticed something. Usually the water output is REALLY hot from this port, but, strangely, it would be hot for about 20 seconds, then "normal" temperature, then hot again, with no real pattern (believe me when I say you can tell the difference). During this time the control panel always showed the heater "ON," although I noticed the heater icon blinked a few times. My controls are 1999 Gecko (in the white box, I'm thinking comparable to the current TSPA-1, I didn't pull the panel to look this morning) with a Gecko tub panel.
UNFORTUNATELY, the local Artesian dealer is no more and the closest is about 80+ miles. There's a big Hot Springs dealer in town and I'm about to call them because I have a BIG Christmas Eve hot tub party scheduled and I NEED it fixed!
I posted this because I don't want someone to show up and say "oh, you need a new board!" when it's something simple like a temperature probe... I like to be educated about what's being fixed.
Thoughts and suggestions GREATLY appreciated!
Thanks...
Andy
???
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WELL, Update #1
So much for the local Hot Springs dealer "Great Atlantic Spas and Decks (757-499-0123)" in Virginia Beach.
When I called, the service department told me that Artesian was an "off brand" and that they couldn't get parts, even if they knew what was wrong with it. ALL service "was COD," I would need to get my own parts and the service schedule "was backed up more than 4 1/2 weeks" so I "was looking at February" before they could come out. The guy that answered the phone SURE sounded snotty about it too.
I just KNEW there was a reason I didn't buy from those guys...
Drewski
:-/
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Do you have in your area an Independent service tech...Don't bother going to a retailer of another tub...If you do not ask some of the local pool builder's if they know of a tech in the area.....
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Drewski,
I take offense that you believe this is a Hotspring dealer problem. You have an Artesian spa. You shouldn’t be blaming Hotspring for a problem with your Artesian spa.
Many dealers don’t do service for spas they don’t sell. I would be snotty too if you called me looking for service from a spa I never sold. Most manufacturer use exclusive parts and it is extremely difficult for non-dealers to get those parts. They also have exclusive training for servicing those brands and obviously your Hotspring dealer hasn’t been trained to service Artesian spas.
Gecko is a non-exclusive brand (easier getting parts) but if your local Hotspring dealer serviced your spa your shell warranty would be void due to the fact that they are not an authorized service center. Is that what you want?
If you called my business looking for service, I would kindly tell you to go back where you bought it or call the manufacturer. That is why Artesian has dealer and service networks. Your Hotspring dealer has every right to decline service to your Artesian Spa and it is not their fault that they are 4 weeks out on service.
Chris
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Drewski,
What a bummer...... :'(......see if you can get salesdvl's attention.....he's an Artesian dealer, if I'm correct. Maybe he can help in some way even though he's Chicago bound.....good luck......
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I take offense that you believe this is a Hotspring dealer problem. You have an Artesian spa. You shouldn’t be blaming Hotspring for a problem with your Artesian spa.
Chris,
Chill, Dude......I didn't read anything in Drew's post where he blamed the HS dealer for his spa problems......he was merely recounting his conversation which sounded to me as if it were peppered with attitude.
I would be snotty too if you called me looking for service from a spa I never sold.
And I think your business philosophy is seriously flawed if having an attitude towards any existing or future customer is standard modus operandi.
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Actually I thought Chris had a good point.
I wish I could help Drewski. Where is Salesdvl when you need him!?!?!?
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Drewski,
Do you have a meter with an amp clamp on it? You can get one at Home Depot pretty cheap or if you can borrow on I will walk you through some troubleshooting.
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Some models in that vintage had a heat recovery coil around the circ pump that had a tendency to fail right around this time.
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Sorry for the multiple posts but another thing that would be helpful is if you open the equipment compartment and take a couple of digital pictures so that I can see the componants and location of them.....
I also PM'ed you
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WSD,
Drewski said “I just KNEW there was a reason I didn’t buy from those guys…” That tells me that he is blaming the Hotspring dealer for not servicing the spa, and I am saying it is not their responsibility. It is Artesian’s.
For whatever reason, I wouldn’t consider him an existing or future customer. I probably would have serviced the spa if I recognized the name because he purchases chemical or accessories from me, but do to the reasons stated before I think it is extremely reasonable to say no to servicing certain spas.
Remember your local dealer is going to take of his customers before he takes on any additional work. If I was a Hotspring customer and he took care of an Artesian spa before he took care of my Hotspring, I would be pissed.
As a dealer, I would have no problem saying no to service because it is usually unprofitable, but if you make enough on the purchase of the spa. It is a wash. Obviously, this dealer didn’t make any money on the purchase.
Chris
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Drewski,
I take offense that you believe this is a Hotspring dealer problem. You have an Artesian spa. You shouldn’t be blaming Hotspring for a problem with your Artesian spa.
*** Original Post Deleted by Drewski ***
Chris H, please accept my apology concerning my post if it came across wrong. I wasn't "blaming" HotSprings, just relating what happened.
Stuart speaks very highly of you.
Again, sorry for the confusion.
Thanks...
Drewski
:-[
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I would vote that we worry less about who's blaming who and who is responsible for what until we get through the issue of what is wrong with the spa.....
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Stuart, WSD and Mendocino101:
THANKS for the help! Stuart, I'll get back to you shortly...
Drewski
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I just thought of something silly here but I have to ask...
have you pulled the filter and seen if it makes a differance? It doesn't matter if the filter is clean, new or anything else, I would just be interested if it changes anything....
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Have you checked the pressure switch on the heater???? Sometimes minerals and scale build up in them and cause the heater to either work below it;s normal output, or not work at all. I'd unscrew the pressure switch and take an unfolded paperclip and "clean" out any gunk that's built up inside it.
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Hey Stu:
THANKS for the talk! You da man...
PM ya soon.
Drewski
:D
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Drew,
Just got off the phone with my Artesian tech and Poolboy is on the money. I couldn't remember but it sounds like you have a vertical low flow heater. If so there is a pressure switch on the side of the canister that collects debris and gets corroded, it was a common problem.
The switch will need replaced which you should be able to do yourself but a short term fix would be to turn the little wheel down just a bit to 1 lb or even .5 lb. Mind you this is not how you want to leave it and it needs to be replaced for the long haul. When you send pictures I can walk you through it pretty easy and most of us including Doc, I believe, can get you a pressure switch for pretty cheap...
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Chris,
My apologies for not making my point clear. I certainly wasn't debating any retailer's decision to service or not to service anyone.....I was commenting on attitude. I'll bet that you or any of the other fine retailers on this board have turned down work before without leaving a "snotty" impression.....it's all about attitude.....
And let me add that the attitude swings both ways......and I'd like to think that Drewski's attitude didn't elicit the attitude he received.
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When I called, the service department told me that Artesian was an "off brand" and that they couldn't get parts, even if they knew what was wrong with it. ALL service "was COD," I would need to get my own parts and the service schedule "was backed up more than 4 1/2 weeks" so I "was looking at February" before they could come out. The guy that answered the phone SURE sounded snotty about it too.
Everything about the above statement is understandable except the last sentence. Some people aren't cut out for customer service as they have no empathy for the customer (and yes, it goes both ways).
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At least in the spa industry when you call customer service you usually get someone who speaks English as a native language.
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Chris,
My apologies for not making my point clear. I certainly wasn't debating any retailer's decision to service or not to service anyone.....I was commenting on attitude. I'll bet that you or any of the other fine retailers on this board have turned down work before without leaving a "snotty" impression.....it's all about attitude.....
And let me add that the attitude swings both ways......and I'd like to think that Drewski's attitude didn't illicit the attitude he received.
Thanks WSD...
When I re-read my post, I could see how some might get the WRONG impression. Actually, I'm a real NICE guy on the phone (like I'm going to call up and DEMAND service from someone who doesn't even sell my tub), so I was surprised by his "attitude" -- after all, I was just asking and I was HAPPY to pay cash.
I wasn't even put off by his reasons, just the way he said stuff. I'd try to say something and he would cut me off. Maybe if he'd listened for a minute and then explained what was happening, I wouldn't have had a bad impression. When he got down to saying I'd have to wait until February to see them, I really felt he was just trying to discourage me.
I called the HotSpring dealer first, mostly because of the reputation I've learned from this forum. What I left with was thinking "is this the way they service the spas THEY sell too?"
Drewski
:-/
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Hey Stuart: I just PM'd you with the pictures.
Also, thanks to all for suggestions! Poolboy, a picture of my pressure switch s attached, just click on it for the high-def view.
I'm thinking the "wheel" is obvious. Clockwise or counter clockwise to INCREASE pressure?
(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/9530/dsc002017ap.th.jpg) (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=dsc002017ap.jpg)
Thanks...
Drewski
8)
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You would turn the wheel counter clockwise, sometimes they lock up a bit and or even break when trying to adjust so be careful.
One of the worst things many people do (techs included) is turn the wheel all of the way out thereby bypassing the safety of the switch, don't do that, the switch is needed and important....
If this doesn't correct the problem my next guess would be that the temp sensing probe on the side of the heater that is plugged into the board is going bad. You will probably have to order this from Artesian. I would call and see what they guess on the same problem at least to have a record of the call, perhaps they will give you one this close to warranty!
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Just so you know, there are HotSpring dealers following this - ready to jump in at a moment's notice....
I think you should check the connections to the temp probe. Look for a corroded pin on the board going to the temp probe. You'll know you find it - it will just about fall off in your hand.
;)
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I'm sure if you brought the pressure switch to a local spa dealer they could get you one, shouldn't cost more then 20-30$, possibly less, and fairly simple to replace. I would recomend cleaning it first though. once you have it unscrewed, just take a tooth pick or a an unfolded paper clip and clean out the inner portion of the threaded end. See if that helps.
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At least in the spa industry when you call customer service you usually get someone who speaks English as a native language.
Well I don't know....., how was my English?
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I would try Artesian customer care at 800-854-7727, any parts you need they will ship over night.
Stuart is right, it sounds like the pressure switch is tired and needs to be replaced.
Pm me if I can be of any help with Artesian.
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I would try Artesian customer care at 800-854-7727, any parts you need they will ship over night.
Stuart is right, it sounds like the pressure switch is tired and needs to be replaced.
Pm me if I can be of any help with Artesian.
Hi Wetone!
Thank you SO much for that number! I called and spoke to Artesian earlier today, probably spent 20 mintues on the phone with them, talked about the maintenance I needed to do, how to do it, etc. They have EVERY part on my 1999 spa in stock, all I need to do is fax them with an order request.
The pressure switch part in question is $28.32.
I REALLY can't thank all of you enough for the help I've been getting on this. It's a GREAT Christmas present. It's nice to know that I have friends out there I've never met but still care.
Bubbastu, I'll be working on the switch in about an hour, following your instructions. Thanks bro...
A very HAPPY...
Drewski
:D
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(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/9530/dsc002017ap.th.jpg) (http://img35.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img35&image=dsc002017ap.jpg)
One warning about the Image Shack. Its free to post pictures there because they make money off of pop-up ads sent to the viewers. 80% of the people they sell ads to are sleaze merchants. Please don' t buy any software to fix your computers from them. People have paid me good money to remove it later.
But keep the pictures coming!
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Hi All:
Well, another update. Unfortunately, the pressure switch only had about 1/4 of turn left on it until it was all the way out. I tightened it down, backed it out again, etc., several times, eventually opening it all the way.
No effect on the problem. When I get home today, I'll wire the two leads together to bypass. The weather here has improved, (60 degrees), so demand for the heater will decrease and I may not be able to test.
I'm waiting on a confirming order from Artesian for a new switch.
Again, THANKS for everyone's help, especially Stuart, Poolboy and Wetone!
Drewski
:-/
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Hi All:
Again, THANKS for everyone's help, especially Stuart, Poolboy and Wetone!
Drewski
:-/
No problem! BTW, I programmed your cell number in so that I can call and verbally abuse you when I don't agree with a post.... ;) ;D It also might come in handy on my next ambulance ride! (many as I've had I have no doubt I'm in for another someday....) 8)
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Oh HO! You stab 'em, WE slab 'em... err, BILL them that is...
BTW, plan on being in your store between noon and 3 PM tomorrow.
Santa Claus just might pay you a VISIT!
Drewski
;D
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Again, THANKS for everyone's help, especially Stuart, Poolboy and Wetone!
Drewski
:-/
Any time, If you want, we have those pressures switches in stock can courier ya one from Canada... eh ;D
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Any time, If you want, we have those pressures switches in stock can courier ya one from Canada... eh ;D
I can see that now; switch $35 CDN, shipping and duty $75 US! ;D
Oh HO! You stab 'em, WE slab 'em... err, BILL them that is...
BTW, plan on being in your store between noon and 3 PM tomorrow.
Santa Claus just might pay you a VISIT!
Drewski
;D
Really!
I can’t remember the last time I wasn’t here around 3PM on any day!
OK, I’ll look for him as long as he doesn’t have a legal document in his hand or a Christmas day service demand I’ll be here! ;) 8)
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Hi All:
Well, no joy on trying the wiring trick. When I wired both leads together, I got the FLC code, when I separated both leads, I got the FLO code. Unfortunately, the heater will not work when either of these codes is displayed.We did a movie tonight instead of the hot tub :'(.
Any suggestions?
A very unhappy,
Drewski
BTW, MERRY CHRSTMAS EVERYONE!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Drewmeister,
You just come on down here and have a Christmas soak with me.......I'll have the martinis ready.......
I feel your pain, man......hang in there and have a wonderful holiday season...... 8)
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GOOD MORNNG WSD, my brother!
Thank you for the offer! I don't think our pilot would like it too much if I told him to have the "G" ready to go in an hour today, though.... ;)
Raincheck on the soak buddy...
I’ll fix this thing yet...
Drewski
8)
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Hi All:
Well, no joy on trying the wiring trick. When I wired both leads together, I got the FLC code, when I separated both leads, I got the FLO code. Unfortunately, the heater will not work when either of these codes is displayed.
I just scanned the rest of this thread and I don't see any mention of the flo or flc codes before. I think that means we're on the wrong track: if the switch was bad it would have been giving a flo code before. Did I miss something?
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Let's start over.... The two things that can cause heat failure is power (i.e. board signal, thermostat, voltage drop, ect..), and flow.
The flow switch can give inconsistent signals without causing a FLO error message on that system. As far as the FLC code I'm not at the store and can't look at a manual, maybe Chas or Gary or someone knows this off of the top of their heads.
The Items in the system that can cause problems like your talking about are Heater (in the right time for most failure), Flow Switch, Circ pump (inconsistent flow), Thermostat/controller and Circuit board.
Let me do some more checking, I was sure after talking to the Artesian Tech that it was the flow switch....?
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Hi All:
Well, we finally got the "big" snow (for us), about 6" on Sunday morning. The forecast said “flurries.” I had let the tub go on Christmas Eve and day, figuring I'd sort it out on Sunday. On Sunday morning it was down to 84, so (in the middle of a hard snow) I was out rewiring the pressure switch to the original position (Brrrrr). The heater came back on and has been working intermittently as before. By 11 PM the tub was at 105 and I was soaking surrounded by snow. Ahhhhhhh....
Unfortunately, within 45 minutes the temp was down to 102 and the heater could not maintain or recover to 104.
BTW, according to the Artesian manual, the FLC code is a "pressure switch problem." I called Artesian for a new one last week but they still haven't called me back to confirm the order and payment. At this point I'd really like to get one from someone here and have it overnighted so I can work on the tub this week (I’m off work all week). We should be back at 70 by Thursday (crazy Beachtown weather) so I can drain the tub to fix it.
If anyone thinks I should replace more than just the pressure switch, please advise. I'm not shy about doing the work or buying the parts...
Again, THANKS for the help....
Drewski
8)
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I'm wondering if by chance you have dropped one leg of power some how on the heater and the heater is only running on 110v. I would still like to get a meter on the heater and preferrably an amp meter but if you can't get you hands on one a regular meter would be nice. If you can get one call me and I will walk you through some troubleshooting....
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So I’ve been thinking about this, if you wired the flow switch lines together and then restarted the spa it would give you that sensor error because it looks for a open connection in the startup test and knows that shortly after the pumps kick on the pressure switch will activate. You can bypass this by putting a jumper in place while the pump is running.
None of this may matter however as I’m changing some of my thinking after reconsidering. I think one of two things is happening.
1. Like I said, you might only be running on 110 at the heater.
2. The more likely scenario is that the low flow heating element is badly scaled up and causing the heater to give a false reading. The scale can cause the element itself to overheat and shut off or even not allow enough heat through the crust that has formed.
You can test the power at the heater between the 2 lugs coming through the side of the box on that vertical mount canister. Measure between them and see that your getting 220 volts and/or clamp over one of the wires and check amps, you should have between 19 and 22 amps.
You can also unscrew the caps at the top and bottom of the canister and loosen the nuts holding the canister to the side of the control box thereby removing the entire canister giving you the ability to look inside and see if it is corroded. I would certainly eliminate the potential voltage issue before going that far but once you find whether you have proper voltage and proper amp draw your next step would be the corrosion inspection .
If the element is corroded then your best bet is to replace it. I have seen debris collect in that canister and cause false readings but that can be eliminated by removing the caps top and bottom and flushing it out, it will be obvious….
Keep me informed…..
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Hi All, Another (sigh) Update:
This morning I did some current testing to try and make some determinations about what’s happening. First off, heater voltage across the lugs came in at 247 with solid harmonics. No problem there. On one of the heater leads, while operating, current draw registered 15.7 AAC continuous, with no breaks other than when the relays cut the heater off.
Shortly after testing (and re-installing the access cover) I got a “PRR” code error (temperature probe error), followed by the PRR code disappearing and the tub temperature reading a sustained 33 degrees. Heater cycle kicked in and operated continuously. Resetting the GFI twice had no effect. Later readings started to bounce and popped as high as 128 until the PRR returned. I’m pulling the access cover again tomorrow to check for loose wires, etc.
Stuart’s in contact with Gecko (what a guy Stuart is!) for help, waiting on more information tomorrow.
Plan is to clamp hoses and pull heater ends to check for corrosion, etc, check temperature probe, and replace both, if indicated. Pressure switch sent by Artesian Monday, awaiting delivery.
Couldn’t do this without Stuart...
Thanks R...
Drewski
OTHER suggestions and comments ALWAYS welcome...
:-/
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Drewski,
I'm happy to help! It kinda balances out all of my lame humor, snide comments and competitive product bashing! 8)
I got your package! What a class act you are my friend! You really know how to make someone feel appreciated. :D In the words of James Cagney - "My mother thanks you -- my father thanks you -- my sister thanks you -- and I thank you." (But I'm not sharing with them....)
Your spa is a bit of a challenge to me, without being able to be there I'm shooting in the dark a bit by troubleshooting over the cell phone. It's such a pain when something is starting to go out but never really going out!
I will let you know what my buddy says today but I suspect after our voltage and amperage tests that it is either the heater or that sensor. It would make sense for it to be the probe but they are usually good or bad not "going out".
Any way we look at this I'm sure I will learn something also.....
Thanks again for the package ;) I will be in touch today
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Drewski,
I'm in a quandary over this spa..... starting from ground zero the first thing I would check is flow through the filter..
If the temp is fluctuating while your in the spa, pull the filters and see if this continues on the same level, if it doesn’t, change filters.
We’ve already tested the amp draw and voltage however your amperage is slightly low for that heater but it does not coincide with the fluctuation of heat coming out of the jet by dropping amperage. This could simply mean that your meter doesn’t react as rapidly as heater kicking on and off but I have my doubts.
If it is your pressure switch you should be getting a flow error but we can eliminate this by CARFULLY jumping the pressure switch with power on, the reason you got the FLC error is because the system goes through a test before the pumps kick on and needs to see that the pressure switch is open. If you do jump it and find the heat no longer fluctuates then you just need to change the pressure switch.
Next, after I had you test amperage you got a PRR error, this is saying your Temp sensor (the one going to the filter compartment) is offline which I suspect that when you pull that plastic shield off of the board you will see a plug loose however you can do two things to test this if that isn’t the case. First, if the plug is not loose unplug it and check for obvious problems and then plug back in, reset power and see if the code goes away.
Next you can pull those sensor plugs off one at a time, put your test meter probes right in the end of the plug and check resistance, write it down and compare the ohms readings between the two probes. You will see a slight difference normally but if there is a problem you will see a big discrepancy….
Outside of all this if flow is consistent at the return jet and the amp draw doesn’t fluctuate with the water coming out of the jet, you have a problem with the heater.
Tomorrow should be a warm day so print this out and walk through these things one at a time…. Call me when you get into this!
I would love some input from other techs here? I'm running out of ideas... ???
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Don't know anything about tubs but do they have removable connectors to plug the sensors in?
It may be possible that dirt or corrosion is on the pins and the resistance is enough to make the tub's electronics not know what to do.
If there are connectors, go to Radio Shack or some other electronics store and buy some plastic safe electronics cleaner (I use something called Blue Shower) and pull the connectors and spray both the male and female ends. You also might want to take the connector and put it on/off a few times to "clean" the connector.
Good Luck!
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I would love some input from other techs here? I'm running out of ideas... ???
If the indicator on the panel still says the heat is on, but the water is coming out cold, then there is a problem other than the P switch.
The test Drewski did when he got the FL codes shows that to be true.
He metered the element and that showed it to be fine. Of course, the heater ran flawlessly while he was metering it: welcome to the fun world of spa troubleshooting. It would have made it far too easy if the heater had 'dropped out' while the meter was in place...
I would look at heater relay or connections to the element for the problem, and if those are fine - then I would say a new board in in his future.
Is there any way you can observe the heater relay or meter it to see if it is working correctly?
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Oh - and be sure the system is simply not dropping the heater out because the pumps are all on: is it set for high or low current mode?
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Oh - and be sure the system is simply not dropping the heater out because the pumps are all on: is it set for high or low current mode?
It didn't change in amperage with pumps on....
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Drewski,
It could be the heating element. Pressure switch has been replaced, eliminate that, high limit and temp sensors (based on my experience) either work or don't, no in between, it seems both work?
If there was an issue the heater relays it would be heat on or off, since the heat out-put fluctuates we can eliminate them.
What about the circ pumps flow rate, is it steady or does it fluctuate? If the flow rate is steady then every thing points back to the heater.
Is the heater a laing unit?
If it is the same as the current models have, it has settings from 2.1 kw to 5.5 kw. The currently model piper glens heater is set at 4.1 kw @ 17.1 amps. It could be fluctuating from 4.1 kw to the next level down which is 2.9 kw @12.1 amps due to a possible short inside the element. Which could explain the temp fluctuations?
Your thoughts on this Stuart?
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Sorry to answer for Drewski but I've been pretty involved and know some of these.
Drewski,
It could be the heating element. Pressure switch has been replaced, eliminate that, high limit and temp sensors (based on my experience) either work or don't, no in between, it seems both work?
The pressure switch should give a flow error reading but doesn't, High Limit and Temp sensors can be going out and have improper resistance but our right, they usually work or don't. The PRR did not come up until he was in there checking voltage/amperage. Now his Temp sensor is not working but he hasn't pulled the plastic shield off of the board to see if anything is unplugged.
If there was an issue the heater relays it would be heat on or off, since the heat out-put fluctuates we can eliminate them.
This was my point, no amp drop showing up in the test to match the fluctuation of heat so the heater is not losing power or shutting down.
What about the circ pumps flow rate, is it steady or does it fluctuate? If the flow rate is steady then every thing points back to the heater.
He does not notice a fluctuation in the flow but that would be my first guess if the heater is staying at constant amps. Otherwise, your right it would point to the heater....
Is the heater a lacing unit?
If it is the same as the current models have, it has settings from 2.1 kw to 5.5 kw. The currently model piper glens heater is set at 4.1 kw @ 17.1 amps. It could be fluctuating from 4.1 kw to the next level down which is 2.9 kw @12.1 amps due to a possible short inside the element. Which could explain the temp fluctuations?
Your thoughts on this Stuart?
No the heater is not a laing, it is a vertical mount powder coated canister attached to the side of the control box. I believe it is made by Coates. It should be a 5.5 KW and is only pulling enough amperage to operate on about 4 KW but then I don't know how accurate his meter is.
My best guess at this point if the sensor is not just unplugged is the heating element..... if the sensor is not unplugged it would explain a lot as I believe those sensors where read at the board on 3 to 5 second intervals. If that's the case then everything could fluctuate without setting off an error code....
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Well we might have found this! Yesterday Drewski dismantled the pack and heater to see what he could find! Heater looked ok and ohm'ed out good but he did find a corroded pin on the board going to the temp probe and it fell off in his hand.
Hopefully that is the issue..... I'm very curious now though, how did this keep from showing an error code for the sensor. My best guess is that the system is probably set to test up to a 5 degree temp difference between the high limit and the temp probe only at set intervals. The fluctuation was slightly less perhaps and the control board did not catch it. ???
Are hope is that he is soo close to his warranty that Artesian will take pity and at least share in the cost some….
Drewski,
Let me know what they say!;)
I sure hope this is it....:-/
BTW, I called Artesian several times with questions on this and they have tried to be very helpful however, I found it odd that I could not find a tech there that worked for the factory 5 years ago and none of them really knew a lot about this system... ???
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hope is that he is soo close to his warranty that Artesian will take pity and at least share in the cost some….
Drewski,
Let me know what they say!;)
I sure hope this is it....:-/
BTW, I called Artesian several times with questions on this and they have tried to be very helpful however, I found it odd that I could not find a tech there that worked for the factory 5 years ago and none of them really knew a lot about this system... ???
Stuart, did you speak with Allen Kelly Engineering or Bob Gilmore Customer Care Manager at Artesian?
Artesian is building a large new plant in Nevada, target move date was over xmas. We are told construction fell behind, new move date is April. Employes were asked if they wanted to move with the the plant, some did not and exited the company in Dec, all the new people there are the ones that will be in the new Nevada Plant which could explian why they are not familier with a 5 year old piper glen equipment ???.
Drewski, If you need a new board and they hesitate in suppling it at no cost, let me know. I can probably pull some string's for you ;). In the limited warranty issues we have had, we have found them to go that extra mile for us.
wetone
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Wetone,
I don't really know who I talked to but he said that they only had one guy that had been around when that spa was made and he didn't know himself because he had not been there that long.
They did spend a great deal of time on the phone with me and tried very hard to be helpful....
Drewski,
wetone being a dealer in good standing with them can pull more strings than you and I! I would get him involved.
BTW wetone, when you talk to Artesian let them know the saga on the forum and that this is a great time to look good to a bunch of new shoppers!
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If for some reason Artesian doesn't come through and the PC board is too expensive, maybe just putting on a new connector onto the board will help. There may be a manufacturer on the connector or plug ends of the connector.
Go to Newark Electronics on line or call their 800 number and they should be able to help you. There aren't too many manufacturers of connectors with AMP being the most common.
If you want or need to go this route let me know and I'll do my best to help out.
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Drewski,
If you still need help, let me know. I have Salesdvl's phone number and can call for you.
rocket
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I just want to commend all of you dealers (Artesian and not) who have worked tirelessly to help Drewski!
It just shows that no matter what some other people have said, you guys are truly here to help! No matter what!
One of the reasons I stick around!
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Hi All:
SORRY, I've been away for a few days, everything goes wrong at once. I was off last week from work, so I was using my laptop at home. The laptop would overheat and started shutting down so I couldn't post. My “I” key is also gone, meaning I had to “cut and paste” “I’s” in (new laptop this week!). Add to that an “all night” new years eve party at a friend’s house and the fact I've been sick with a bad cold the last few days and you can probably figure I'm pretty DARN disgusted.
BTW, a big THANKS to all of you who have posted to this thread with suggestions and offers off help. Stuart, Wetone and Chas have given great advice along with offers of help.
VINNY, bro, you were right on the money with the problem! GREAT read.
So, it comes down to this. I pulled the heater, checked the interior, etc.,etc., all good. The heater is actually a 4 KW model with a spiral ceramic coated coil. It was clean as a whistle on the inside with no problems. My testing of the pressure switch indicated it was working and had not failed. All other stuff was good as well.
At this point, I decided to pull all sensor leads and check resistance values through each circuit. When I pulled the temperature probe lead, I immediately saw a bunch of corrosion on the end of the pin connector. One of the male pins on the board was also bent and when I pulled the board cover to look at it, it broke off. A bunch of corrosion was also on the plastic connector mounted to the board.
A few years back, I had a service call for a problem with the temperature sensor. My guess is when the technician serviced the spa he somehow got the lead wet with tub water and, probably unknowingly, plugged it back in. It took a few years for electrolysis and corrosion to work its way through, but eventually it did. The rest of the board is as clean as a whistle (click on pics below).
So, my board is busted due to a 5 cent part. GRRRRR... Tonight, I'm pulling the board from the tub and securing all wiring.
I would appreciate advice as to the following:
REPAIR the board? Pulling the board is no problem (ASSUMING it's MADE to be removed), Stuart has a suggestion for repairing. The board is a GECKO MSPA-4, made in 1999. What are the chances that ONLY the temperature probe connector is causing all the issues and has NOT created other problems?
REPLACE the board? I have a call in to Artesian (they apparently were closed Thurs and Fri) and I'm waiting to hear if they have replacement boards in stock. Are there other sources for boards? Common board? Cost vs. age of the tub? Wetone, your thoughts on this would be MOST appreciated. I'll PM you also.
UPGRADE other components? While I'm at this, I mind as well take care of "everything" The ozone unit is 5 years old and I'm thinking it's time for a new unit. Is a 5.5 KW heater a better idea than my current 4, or does KW ratings not necessarily mean more heat? What about the circ pump?
Unfortunately, I'm getting ready to become pretty busy at work, including a bit of traveling, meaning this project might stretch out over a few weeks or even a month. Weather in Virginia Beach right now is excellent, and should stay this way for at least another week, so the sooner I can start on repairs, the better.
On the bright side of all of this, I'm REALLY getting to know how hot tubs work! I've never really "looked" at the mechanical side of things for my tub and this is certainly helping.
Again, I can't THANK all of you enough for helping me with my problem. It's REALLY nice to have friends willing to help others!
I'll be monitoring this forum today for responses. Tomorrow, I'll be offline at a meeting in DC/Northern Virginia (wonderful DC traffic).
Thanks...
Drewski
(http://img118.exs.cx/img118/2415/hottubm30246ym.th.jpg) (http://img118.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img118&image=hottubm30246ym.jpg) (http://img118.exs.cx/img118/9486/hottubm30420kb.th.jpg) (http://img118.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img118&image=hottubm30420kb.jpg) (http://img118.exs.cx/img118/8915/hottubm3044a3io.th.jpg) (http://img118.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img118&image=hottubm3044a3io.jpg)
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I have talked to one of my wholesale parts suppliers who also does board repair . He says, "no problem." About $50 or so - plus UPS shipping to AZ. He has been pretty quick about the turn-around in the past, and since this is a simple repair, you shouldn't be waiting too long. Let me know if you want to do that and I'll set it up.
OR-
You might take it to a computer repair place and see if they remember how to operate a soldering iron.
From your digipics I see plastic snap-in type holders. These will allow you to take the board out of the box, but take care to look for scattered screws as well - some boards run a screw or two here and there for grounding or extra strength/security. And, be sure to release the little clips before you pull the board off - you don't want to break any traces or crack the board. Well, I don't know: at this point you might WANT to, but don't...
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I wouldn't imagine that the temperature probe has more than 2 or 3 wires. Pick up a male/female connector set at Radio Shack with the same number of wires. Have someone who knows how to use a solder iron remove the connector fron the board and solder wires in it's place. Even easier you could solder the wires to a clean part of the connector without removing it. Then put one of the new connectors on those wires and replace the connector on the cable with the other end. The easiest solution would be to just solder the existing wires to the board without a connector and worry about being able to disconnect it later.
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The connectors shown are standard connectors - could be computer PC board connectors. I would suggest going to a local electronics store (Radio Shack may have it) and it should ba a simple desolder/solder job.
As I mentioned before Newark electronics sells mostly everything in the electronic world.
One word of caution is when soldering look at how good the electronic pathway is. If it's too corroded, then creat a duplicate one out of thin "wirewrap" wire.
Any questions, Please ask!!!!
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Drewski,
That looks like a pretty simple board, might not cost that much but see if you can keep it and have it repaired for a backup.
I would replace the Ozone, I would not upgrade the heater to a 5.5 KW (use what was made for it).
I would worry more about replacing consumables like cover, pillows and again the ozone.
Let me know what Artesian says....
BTW, just a note to say that I know this has been a pain but I’m very proud of the way that everyone has jumped on with professional advice to help. Even people in other industries have been able to add to this….!
:D
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Drewski,
Those connectors look like they are AMP connectors,
Newark Electronics does have these in their catalog.
Catalog number 121; pages 1343 to1347. (just in case you can get your hands on a catalog)
There seems to be a couple of styles available so it should be easy to pick up a direct match.
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Drewski,
Those connectors look like they are AMP connectors,
Newark Electronics does have these in their catalog.
Catalog number 121; pages 1343 to1347. (just in case you can get your hands on a catalog)
There seems to be a couple of styles available so it should be easy to pick up a direct match.
You know, if your considering replacing the board anyway, it might be good experience to let Vinny walk you through repairing it yourself. He can help with what type of solder and so on.
If it doesn't work, at least you gave it a shot....
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Chas's suggestion is a great alternative to buying a new board.
The board can be fixed quit easy, only one concern, by looking at the pics I see the other pin next to the one that's broken is also starting to corrode, could that be an issue later?
I would try to get a new board from Artesian under warranty.
stuart, you going to Porta Vallarta in Feb. to D1's fiesta?
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stuart, you going to Porta Vallarta in Feb. to D1's fiesta?
Yes I am!
All these dealer meetings in Mexico!
It seems all I do is work, work, work! ;)
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Hi All:
I just sent a rather detailed e-mail with pictures to Alan Kelly with Artesian. I'm about to place a follow-up call as well.
Again, THANKS to all for your help!
Drewski
8)
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Ok, first Cancun, then Puerta Vallarta?
Stuart, I want to come work for you!!! ;)
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Yes I am!
All these dealer meetings in Mexico!
It seems all I do is work, work, work! ;)
we will see ya there ;D
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Well,
What a twisted time I'm having with this. Just found out that Alan Kelly no longer works for Artesian (according to the person who answered the phone), even though the e-mail server accepted the e-mail.
I'm waiting for a call-back from a "manager."
FYI...
Drewski
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Ok, first Cancun, then Puerta Vallarta?
Stuart, I want to come work for you!!! ;)
Done!
As sweet as you are you would Rock! on my sales floor!! :o
(or you could be our cheerleader! ;))
BTW, I'm bringing 4 of my crew to Cancun and 6 to Puerta Vallarta!
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Well,
What a twisted time I'm having with this. Just found out that Alan Kelly no longer works for Artesian (according to the person who answered the phone), even though the e-mail server accepted the e-mail.
I'm waiting for a call-back from a "manager."
FYI...
Drewski
Drewski,
I got some one at head office involved, he just contacted Matt at the plant, someone should be in touch shortly.
keep me posted.
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Drewski,
I got George Hendricks involved, he just contacted Matt at the plant, someone should be in touch shortly.
keep me posted.
Wetone,
You are officially in charge of seeing Drewski through this! I will feel better about leaving him hanging while I'm out of town with you on it! You have more connections with Artesian than I do anyway...!
Thanks buddy!
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Boy - all the help you guys are providing is Great - Artesian or not....I hope my dealer is half as good as you guys !!
So glad I found this website !!!!
You guys are awesome !!!
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Boy - all the help you guys are providing is Great - Artesian or not....I hope my dealer is half as good as you guys !!
So glad I found this website !!!!
You guys are awesome !!!
We're glad your here also.... now we have another person to help walk new customers through a concrete pad install!
BTW,
I talked to Drewski and it sounds like Artesian has "stepped up to the plate" also and is sending him a board under warrenty! I suspect that wetone had a lot to do with this.... ;) ;D
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Hope I'm not to late!
These guys talk way too much. Check your filter!!?
You know its not the element or the board or the topside.
it hast to be a pressure switch or filter problem. also check the screen under the circ. filter.
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I'm new, never read the last page,only your problem.Hope you fixed it
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HALLELUIAH! Wetone, you da man! Consider yourself on my executive gift list! Jason called me at home around 8 PM and is shipping me a new board and temperature probe FREE of charge. They will also provide installation assistance by phone if I need it.
NOW that’s service! Post more tomorrow, gotta get some sleep, leaving for DC at 4:30 AM.
Again, THANKS guys!
Drewski
;D
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HALLELUIAH! Wetone, you da man! Consider yourself on my executive gift list! Jason called me at home around 8 PM and is shipping me a new board and temperature probe FREE of charge. They will also provide installation assistance by phone if I need it.
NOW that’s service! Post more tomorrow, gotta get some sleep, leaving for DC at 4:30 AM.
Again, THANKS guys!
Drewski
;D
Glad I could help :)
Just got an email with the shipping confirmation for your parts. They should be there shortly, and hopefully your back up and tubin by the weekend. ;D
Let me know if there's anything else that I can help with.
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Did you get your spa working?
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Hi All:
Quick update, NO, I'm still waiting for the board. UPS from west to east coast is between 5 to 7 days, so I'll see it today or tomorrow. UNFORTUNATELY, I'm working out of my "mobile" office in Richmond, VA, today through Friday. On the bright side, I just got a new IBM laptop and it's SMOKIN! The hotel I'm at also has a tub, so I'll be checkin that out too...
I'll be back in Beachtown on Friday (my birthday) and should be able to do repairs if the weather's good.
Stuart: hope MEXICO was a good time bro!
Drewski
8)
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The hotel I'm at also has a tub, so I'll be checkin that out too...
BYOS
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What's the word buddy? Are you up and running?
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TWO THUMBS UP!
What a great drama.
I couldn't stop reading this six page epoch.
There sure are a lot of class act contributors on this board.
It really is heart warming to find so many professional, knowlegable, caring people all over this continent, willing to help others who they have never met.
If this were a documentary the credits would go to Stuart, Wetone, Vinny, Chas, and Poolboy, and supporting roles by Lori, rocket, wmcall, tonyp, mendocino101, Chris H, Windsurfdog, Spatech t.u.o., mhraracing, and nelg.
You all deserve an Oscar.
Andy, (Drewski), I hope you enjoy another five trouble free years in your Artesian Piper Glen.
Regards Zz
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Why thank you, ZZ! I happen to know that a bunch of us feel the same about you! Your name should be listed as well, maybe not for this particular thread, but you have posted informative and helpful posts since you started here!
I know I appreciate all you have done here! Kudos should be yours as well!!!
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ZZ,
I came to this and Doc's board to learn about tubs ... and I have learned A LOT. Who knows what I would have bought IF I didn't find these two sites (I was hooked on Thermospas for quite a while). The professionals on these site are outstanding; the info and help they provide FOR FREE to all of us is amazing!
Although not in the spa industry, I know electronics pretty well and just added my 2 cents - I really like to help out people when I can.
As Lori said you have contributed too in other posts - hey I'm going to buy a solar cover just to have here when my tub finally gets here to put on the underside of the spa cover because of what you wrote - it sounded like you "done your homework" with that - Thanks!
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Hi All:
Sorry it's been awhile on the updates, I've been on the road and the weather has been uncooperative.
I received the new board and probe about a week ago (thanks Wetone!) but had to wait until yesterday for a break in the weather when I was home. The nighttime temps have been in the teens with 20+mph winds, so freezing conditions have been a real problem. I needed to drain the tub prior to all this bad stuff shortly after Christmas, so it wouldn't freeze and create further problems.
Yesterday, the forecast was for clear weather with highs in the forties. I started working at 2 PM and successfully removed the old board at about 3 PM. The only thing I needed to transfer from the old board was the transformer, so I pulled this also. By about 5 PM I had the new board installed. The Gecko circuit diagram made everything clear, labeling all the jumpers and showing which wires to connect where, etc. In all, I had about 40 connections to make. I also replaced the pressure switch and temperature probe.
Unfortunately, I could not start the tub. When I replaced the pressure switch I found ice in the heater and I realized I had not successfully drained all the water. I put a work light in the pump space and buttoned up the cover at about 7 PM.
This morning, I filled the tub. The work light successfully thawed the heater and at about noon I was ready to start. When I powered up I immediately knew Pump 1 was still frozen, so I shut down. I transferred the work light to the other side and again buttoned up the pump space. At 4 PM, I restarted AND, this time, SUCCESS!
Everything worked GREAT and NO ERROR CODES! Using the control panel, I reprogrammed everything and set the temp for 104. It's been climbing at 3 degrees per hour and, when I just checked, it had passed 75. I should be at "user" temp tomorrow morning and will add chems first thing.
I'll follow up with more shortly, including pics.
THANKS for the help everyone! PARTY to follow....
Drewski LOVES ya....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Duuuude,
That's great news! Let us know when the party is.....I'll spring for the martinis! 8)
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I'm so happy for you Drewski!
Woohoo! Tubbing again!
;D
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Argghhh! ANOTHER problem!
MAN, these issues are starting to frustrate me!
Last night, I successfully used the tub in rather COLD weather (22 degrees, 25 mph wind) with 4 other people. I had "backed out" the temperature probe to increase the "upper limit" and had 108 degrees on entry (oh yeah!). Removing water would have been difficult considering the weather, so I ended up with some overflow including water going over the side of the tub at the control panel. This often happened previously during the summer when kids used the tub.
Everything was great for the first 2 cycles, but suddenly the tub switched to "high limit" mode when the temp had dropped to 102. I attempted resetting, but was initially unsuccessful. The control panel also started to act "funny," with slow key commands. We exited the tub and I opened the pump space to inspect and found some water near the controls. Also, there was water on the connection line from the panel to the spa pack. It was too cold to pull the spa pack cover and look inside.
Eventually, I reset the GFI to the tub. Initially, this had no effect, but then produced a period of "wild" temperature readings of 122+ that continually fluctuated (the HL code curiously did NOT reappear) followed by eventual reset to 98 degrees when things "settled down." By this morning, everything was back to "normal." I do NOT believe the “high limit” temp was ever encounter, instead I think data reading errors were occurring. Possibly, these were caused by moisture cross circuiting the probe leads at the board?
Now, earlier, I considered this as a cause to my original problem. It would also make sense given the condition of the probe connection I replaced. BUT, for the life of me, I can't see how the water gets to the connection. It would have to make a 90 degree turn to get the connection wet and it still couldn't explain how the water "jumped" from the panel lead to the probe lead.
OK, so here's my plan. First, I'm going to waterproof the connections entering the spa pack with silicon. This should prevent the transfer of water along the probe and panel leads. I'm also going to "wrap" the top of the spa pack with a removable plastic cover to prevent coming down on it. Second, I'm going to pull the control panel and also waterproof the recess setting in the tub, again with silicon. I don't see what else I can do?
I'd also consider replacing the control panel and the HL probe, the only two leads I've NOT replaced to date?
At LEAST, the tub works!
Ideas appreciated....
Drewski
:-/
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drewski,
I have been away for a while. Very curious as to how you made out with your Artesian problem. Please get back to the post.. ;)
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You cannot pull that probe out that far! The board tests for a set difference in temp between the two probes if it is to dramatic it will give you a sensor error. I would also doubt that the water caused that problem but rather another bad board. It is very common to have a faulty replacement board....
Call me......