Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: fatman on January 13, 2005, 05:52:26 pm
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A few weeks ago I was talking with a Master Spa dealer and during his sales pitch to me, he made a big deal about Master Spa being the only hot tub on the market built with a steel frame. I haven't heard of anyone on this forum experiencing hot tub collapse or major shell cracking so is a steel frame that important?
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Please don't assume all of the Master Spas Dealers are this way. This topic has been debated before. Master is not the only one doing it. There are benefits IMO. And others will say there are no benefits.
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Ask the dealer if there is any chance of the frame rusting.
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A few weeks ago I was talking with a Master Spa dealer and during his sales pitch to me, he made a big deal about Master Spa being the only hot tub on the market built with a steel frame. I haven't heard of anyone on this forum experiencing hot tub collapse or major shell cracking so is a steel frame that important?
Master spa uses an automotive grade steel that will eventually rust.
No they are not the only ones that do it....MAAX industries uses a "Gavalume" steel product with a lifetime warranty on the Coleman and the Elite lines.
I have seen shell cracking from poor frames in a spa and infact have seen a master spa 1050 crack because the had no middle "cross supports" on the long side.
Most of the frame failures I have seen were on 2 x 2 stapled frames that many manufactures do to try and save money!
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Since I live right on the Gulf coast and have salt water canals on 2 sides of my house with my spa located on an exterior deck 8' off the ground, I would think this environment to be rather detrimental to any metal spa frame. My LSX has been in place for 6 months. The last time I had a panel off was about 1.5 months ago. A careful inspection of the framing at that time showed the beginnings of oxidation (rust) only on the cut edges of the framing members--no other signs of oxidation were evident anywhere else including the faces of the framing material. I wish I could get a piece of the same material that Coleman uses for their tubs and place it inside the spa (hey--another advantage for the TP design!) in order to have a comparison of the two. Any Coleman dealers game? Otherwise, I'm pleased with the results thus far--only time will tell. 8)
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. A careful inspection of the framing at that time showed the beginnings of oxidation (rust) only on the cut edges of the framing members--
Would it be worth cleaning that up now and perhaps spraying it with something like a clear Krylon?
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Would it be worth cleaning that up now and perhaps spraying it with something like a clear Krylon?
I don't know, Bill. It is such a small edge....just the thickness of the metal itself though it is as long as the metal pieces themselves and it is isolated to the edge alone. Right now, from what I'm seeing, I'm not concerned. Certainly I'll be monitoring it every couple-3 months. Otherwise, under the covers, it looks like day 1..... 8)
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I haven't heard of anyone on this forum experiencing hot tub collapse
I hadn't until yesterday. My service crew moved a spa. Or should I say tried to. The frame did collapse. The spa is less than two years old. I won't say what brand but I can tel you it was framed with 1*2"'s and 2*2"'s. The brand is rated 4* on poolandspa.com and has been critisized for their marketing/pricing strategies.
I doubt a well built spa with 2*3 or 2*4 construction would hve the same issue, especially if the bottom is sealed with ABS.
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Wood is not as strong, and it rots. Steel,even stainless will rust. So what is a better alternative to bracing supports under tubs? Are we talking about cabinet, shell,or both? Do any manufactures use a better material ? Why not a hard plastic, polymer or something.
Wouldn't a better alternative be, building cabinets,shells, and floors that are strong enough that they don't need extra support? Or would a manufacture that did take the extra time and spend the money to build tubs this way, be persicuted by the industry and those in it, for not staying with the industry standards?
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I couldn't imagine building a spa with 2x2's . But I also would take that review list from Poolandspa.com too seriously either. Looking at the "Delux Class Recommended" I see Cal Spa there. Perhaps it was a printing mistake.
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Wood is not as strong, and it rots. Steel,even stainless will rust. So what is a better alternative to bracing supports under tubs? Are we talking about cabinet, shell,or both? Do any manufactures use a better material ? Why not a hard plastic, polymer or something.
Wouldn't a better alternative be, building cabinets,shells, and floors that are strong enough that they don't need extra support? Or would a manufacture that did take the extra time and spend the money to build tubs this way, be persicuted by the industry and those in it, for not staying with the industry standards?
Get off the soap box. You are no marter.
A claim of superiority is just that, even if you dont say what brand you sell in the post.
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I couldn't imagine building a spa with 2x2's . But I also would take that review list from Poolandspa.com too seriously either. Looking at the "Delux Class Recommended" I see Cal Spa there. Perhaps it was a printing mistake.
I know the star system is bogus. I was trying to give hints without bashing a competitor while also showing the star sytem means squat.
I can think of a manufacturer that until this year was unrated and made light of the poolandspa site ratings in the stores that I shopped. This year that manufacturer ponied up the dough and are now 4-star. I wonder if anyone can guess who that is? Stabone? JP?
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I know the star system is bogus. I was trying to give hints without bashing a competitor while also showing the star sytem means squat.
I can think of a manufacturer that until this year was unrated and made light of the poolandspa site ratings in the stores that I shopped. This year that manufacturer ponied up the dough and are now 4-star. I wonder if anyone can guess who that is? Stabone? JP?
Hmm, it's on the tip of my tounge giving me a bad taste right now for some reason....lol
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I guess it would have nothing to do with the actual quality of the product itself would it...... ::)
You guys are relentless.
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Steel is not necessarily stronger than wood and does not necessarily have a longer life.
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Steel is not necessarily stronger than wood and does not necessarily have a longer life.
Now hold on! I have to question the logic here? I agree that a hot tub frame out of 2 x 4 construction is more than adequate if it is built right with the proper wood, but to say that steel is not stronger than wood makes me question why we don't have any automobiles out today with wood frames or why commercial buildings require a metal I-beam for support on any span of distance! If that statement is true wouldn't it make more sense to build street light poles out of wood? It would be easier to work with and cheaper to haul!
There are manufactures that make wood frames that will outlast you but that doesn't mean steel is not stronger!
Windy,
I would love to do this test! Let me see if I can get MAAX to send me a piece....
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I guess it would have nothing to do with the actual quality of the product itself would it...... ::)
You guys are relentless.
CFL, you will notice that my comments followed Stabones vailed claim of superiority and claim to marter status.
To answer your question, NO it has nothing to do with quality. Advertising dollars on that site = a rating. What rating depends on how much $ you spend. Is it a coincidence that Arctic received a rating only after they started advertising in their magazine and web site?
More proof it has nothing to do with quality would be the jump from "not rated" to "4 Star". Did Arctic improve that much in one calender year?
Also, if you actually read posts on this board you would see I was the first to apologize and welcome Arctic supporters after the 12 page thread Stabone started goit locked. Just yesterday I also defended Arctic. Relentless? Get your facts straight.
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Perhaps I'm alone on this, but I always find these types of arguments amusing. Reason why......
What's the real lifespan of a spa? Not just the cabinet, but all the rest of it as well. Lets give it 25 years just for arguments sake. Now, you could build a cabinet that would last 100 years, and maybe even use that as a marketing gimmick. HOWEVER, the cost to do so is going to make your product rather uncompetitive price wise, and besides, the rest of the spa still only has a 25 year lifespan.
The real "goal" should be to designing a product in which ALL of the various components have a similar life expectancy.
Back in the 40's or 50's the air force did some testing to determine the maximum deceleration forces the human body endure, and survive. Their thinking was there was no need to develop a plane's/jet's cockpit to withstand a force that couldn't also be withstood by the pilot (morbid I know, but true)
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"More proof it has nothing to do with quality would be the jump from "not rated" to "4 Star". Did Arctic improve that much in one calender year?"
you aint seen nothin.... I have a copy of the page from every time it's changed since 1998 ;)
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I bet its funny. I know Beachcomber went from 4-3-4-3 all inside one calender year.
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even funnier.... I know the entire story as to why they were jumping around on their ratings ;D
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Windy,
I would love to do this test! Let me see if I can get MAAX to send me a piece....
And if you want to "exscape" the winter weather, you could deliver it in person! I'd be most happy to make it real cheap and comfortable for you once you got here (except you'd have to stoop to soaking in an MS! ;D)
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Who are the other manufactures on the list, I haven't read anyone from Arctic even talking about star ratings. No one cares but you. Anyway, just keep talkin' about us guys, we love it!!
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Back in the 40's or 50's the air force did some testing to determine the maximum deceleration forces the human body endure, and survive. Their thinking was there was no need to develop a plane's/jet's cockpit to withstand a force that couldn't also be withstood by the pilot (morbid I know, but true)
Are you talking about the speed sled, the fastest man alive, and the origin of Murphy's Law? Sorry, this is about as on-topic to hot tubs as pool and spa ratings! ;D
-Ed
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Who are the other manufactures on the list,
You can check yourself.
I haven't read anyone from Arctic even talking about star ratings.
I heard it from delaers and show teams, did I say I saw it on this site?
No one cares but you.
Quite obviously not, read the thread before you reply.
Anyway, just keep talkin' about us guys, we love it!!
I bet you do. You keep making vailed claims, and I will.
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There are manufactures that make wood frames that will outlast you but that doesn't mean steel is not stronger!
Amen.
A thin piece of steel might be weaker than a thick piece of wood. I think the argument is that people go to steel but use thinner pieces (maybe to make it lighter? Cheaper?) and that, thin enough, it doesn't have the same support.
Use an adequate amount of wood for the frame and it will last the life of the tub and beyond. Use an adequate amount of steel and coat is correctly to avoid rust (incuding where you drill holes in it to drop bolts) and you have a frame that will ast the life of the tub and beyond.
-Ed
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Anyway, just keep talkin' about us guys, we love it!!
There has been extensive talk about Thermospas, Haven spas and Adventure Spas on this site and others so I'm not sure I agree with the "as long as they're talking about us ...". Now I am NOT putting you on the list with those companies, I'm merely stating that you might want the talk to be more positive rather than simply being satisfied you've been successful getting your name mentioned (but that's just my opinion).
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What I was wondering is how did Carmen Electra, go from #10 last year to #25 this year in Maxim's 100 sexiest women. And why Jessica Simpson went from #12 to #1 this year, do you mean to tell me that Carmen got less attractive and Jessica got better looking during one calender year? Or did her popularity and sales numbers go up? Who ever is hot gets better ratings, in any list. I guess we must be hot, and getting talked about alot. Good or bad, any "pub" is good pub. Keep it up guys, we really do appreciate it.
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scary... even on-topic he's completely off-topic
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What I was wondering is how did Carmen Electra, go from #10 last year to #25 this year in Maxim's 100 sexiest women. And why Jessica Simpson went from #12 to #1 this year, do you mean to tell me that Carmen got less attractive and Jessica got better looking during one calender year? Or did her popularity and sales numbers go up? Who ever is hot gets better ratings, in any list. I guess we must be hot, and getting talked about alot. Good or bad, any "pub" is good pub. Keep it up guys, we really do appreciate it.
Just like when a toddler is naughty...
Negative attention is attention....Can't imagine it sells many spas.
Spahappy
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And if you want to "exscape" the winter weather, you could deliver it in person! I'd be most happy to make it real cheap and comfortable for you once you got here (except you'd have to stoop to soaking in an MS! ;D)
I could do that but I would have to be careful not lean against the panels! ;) ;D 8)
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Find out if they use bolts in that there metal frame or bolts. Because a bit of vibration...and either one may, well never mind I am sure you have though of that. I wonder which resonates more? Which of course would relate to more noise.
I do like the concept but I think more work needs to be done to perfect a "steel" frame. Plastic would be better. Re-cycled even better. .030 metal formed in an angle support, bends easier than a 2x2
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You might be on to something it is amazing the things that can be done with plastics.....
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Find out if they use bolts in that there metal frame or bolts. Because a bit of vibration...and either one may, well never mind I am sure you have though of that. I wonder which resonates more? Which of course would relate to more noise.
I do like the concept but I think more work needs to be done to perfect a "steel" frame. Plastic would be better. Re-cycled even better. .030 metal formed in an angle support, bends easier than a 2x2
Coleman is quieter with the pumps on high than any spa I have encountered. I guess they weld it.
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Just like when a toddler is naughty...
Negative attention is attention....Can't imagine it sells many spas.
Spahappy
Well besides this site, I do not typically hear to many negatives about the Arctics. Quite the opposite actually. And yes, Arctic is selling plenty of spas.
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Well besides this site, I do not typically hear to many negatives about the Arctics. Quite the opposite actually. And yes, Arctic is selling plenty of spas.
I really only hear negatives about their sales tactics. This not only comes from dealers but also from many customers that have posted on these sites about their experiences relative to what Arctic sales approach is. That says nothing about their quality as I really don't remember much/any negatives about the spas themselves. It’s great that you/they are selling a lot of spas. That puts you right in line with other spa makers who are selling a lot of spas i.e. Hot Springs, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Caldera, D1, Master, Beachcomber, Dynasty, etc.
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Well besides this site, I do not typically hear to many negatives about the Arctics. Quite the opposite actually. And yes, Arctic is selling plenty of spas.
Actually there was a lot of negative on Arctic last year on spa search until Arctic reps and dealers flooded that forum and verbally abused anyone disagreeing with what they did. I free that is what is going on here.....
If you look at the end of the url on most of the spasearch postings several of them all come from the same place with different names...
Many of the posts that started out there as something else completely ended as an Arctic debate(kinda like this topic). Sounds like this form of marketing is working for you guys..... :o
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Stuart, please go back and read this again, Arctic was brought up by someone other than an Arctic guy. I simple asked questions, which were ignored. I have to disagree.
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I don't think I would give metal an advantage over wood framing on a spa. It's simply a non issue.
Metal is used in construction for different reasons than longevity or strenght, it's fire rating. In the sense of metal studs I mean. Metal does however make better bridges! But wood makes a better deck!
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Stuart, please go back and read this again, Arctic was brought up by someone other than an Arctic guy. I simple asked questions, which were ignored. I have to disagree.
The questions in this thread that you asked that were not answered were the ones regarding the ratings for Carmen and Jessica.
If I missed a question, please ask it again.
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To clarify, I said steel is not NECESSARILY stronger than wood. Steel CAN be stronger, but also CAN be weaker. It comes down to weight, design, etc. Wood can outlast steel and steel can outlast wood. There are many variables. Houses are still mainly built from wood even though there are steel alternatives. Even steel beams are being shunned for engineered wood. In some applications, wood is a better alternative than steel and vice versa.
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I really only hear negatives about their sales tactics. This not only comes from dealers but also from many customers that have posted on these sites about their experiences relative to what Arctic sales approach is. That says nothing about their quality as I really don't remember much/any negatives about the spas themselves. It’s great that you/they are selling a lot of spas. That puts you right in line with other spa makers who are selling a lot of spas i.e. Hot Springs, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Caldera, D1, Master, Beachcomber, Dynasty, etc.
Well good, that means we're all getting a piece of the pie. 8)
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Well good, that means we're all getting a piece of the pie. 8)
The pie is certainly spread out but not every slice is as appetizing as the next.
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The pie is certainly spread out but not every slice is as appetizing as the next.
I'll have coconut creme, please....and coffee..... ;)
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I'll have coconut creme, please....and coffee..... ;)
Windsurfdog,
A man after my own heart! LOL!
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The pie is certainly spread out but not every slice is as appetizing as the next.
OK. ::)
My slice tastes pretty darn good.
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Wood or steel would be great if it was done the right way. Problem is I don't know of any spa company doing it the "right'' way. If they did, the only thing left to sell would be replacement parts that where used up. Or they might sell a new tub if you where a first time buyer or looking to buy a new model spas.
I would think the shell and framing could be made to last 25 years are longer with very little cost upgrade.
But you made things to last forever, we all would be looking for jobs. :)
A little hot dipped galvinizing and treated wood goes a long way.
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Wood or steel would be great if it was done the right way. Problem is I don't know of any spa company doing it the "right'' way. If they did, the only thing left to sell would be replacement parts that where used up. Or they might sell a new tub if you where a first time buyer or looking to buy a new model spas.
I would think the shell and framing could be made to last 25 years are longer with very little cost upgrade.
But you made things to last forever, we all would be looking for jobs. :)
A little hot dipped galvinizing and treated wood goes a long way.
I think there many spas whose frames and shells will last 25 years..but the pumps and heaters will not....these are not fine furniture...that will age with grace and beauty......if you get 12 to 15 good years with minimal repairs out of your spa ..you are doing well and have gotten a fair shake for your money....I think there are several spa makers whose spas will do this....
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Windsurfdog,
A man after my own heart! LOL!
Princess,
I've been after your heart since the day we met...... ;)
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Well besides this site, I do not typically hear to many negatives about the Arctics. Quite the opposite actually. And yes, Arctic is selling plenty of spas.
And herein is where the rubber 'sorta' hits the road. As a consumer who was in the shopping mode last summer, I got a first hand look a this sales approach. It came from two manufacturers that claimed superiority over the competition because of their manufacturing process.
The first was Thermospas, who I have no problems in advising people who ask for my opinion about to RUN, RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN FROM THEM. Before I became aware of who they were I had invited a sales rep into my house and well, I wrote my experience in a previous post.
The other was my local Arctic dealer. They did not impress me because of their approach to compare their product with the other locally available brands and how superior their's was. Rather than focusing on the quality of their product they chose to trash the others and that is a big turn off for me. It is a nice looking tub and we did enjoy the wet test, but we walked because of that.
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They did not impress me because of their approach to compare their product with the other locally available brands and how superior their's was. Rather than focusing on the quality of their product they chose to trash the others and that is a big turn off for me.
This is the biggest mistake any dealer can make when trying to sell a spa BY FAR. The closest Coleman dealer to me at the time (200 miles) and the only Sundance dealer that would sell to me totally trashed their competition and their competition's products. Had it not been for this, I certainly could be soaking in a 706 or Cameo now. I guess the point is that no matter how well built or technically advanced a spa is, all of that can get lost in attitude and approach.
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Wood or steel would be great if it was done the right way. Problem is I don't know of any spa company doing it the "right'' way. If they did, the only thing left to sell would be replacement parts that where used up. Or they might sell a new tub if you where a first time buyer or looking to buy a new model spas.
I would think the shell and framing could be made to last 25 years are longer with very little cost upgrade.
But you made things to last forever, we all would be looking for jobs. :)
A little hot dipped galvinizing and treated wood goes a long way.
What kind of spa do you have? MAAX does do hot dipped galvanized frames out of a material called "galvalume" http://www.galvalume.com/
D1 has been using kiln dried, pressure treated 2x4 construction in their cabinets for years. In addition to that they use the same bracketing and design that is used in the roof trusses of your house, how long do you expect your house to last?