Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: stuart on December 13, 2004, 01:52:31 pm
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There have been several posts lately on the benefit of new water. With the change of seasons comes many situations that can make water care frustrating so I thought I would start this post as a help to new owners or intermediate owners that haven’t experienced season changes yet.
Within the first month of spa ownership you will encounter some water maintenance issues that you might never deal with again. Here are some of the reasons;
1. In the first month your spa will typically get more use than normal as you invite friends and family over, every family member gets in several times a day just because this new cool (or hot) item is out there and you’ve been too excited for it’s arrival. You try to make up for all the times your back hurt and you did not have one by getting in constantly!
2. Most people that use a spa have collected oils and even dirt in the pores of their skin that does not come out from showering or even typical bathing but will exude out in a spa due to many things like; longer soaking time, deeper immersion, PH balance, sanitizers, massage and of course the heat. With consistent soaking this will not be as common after owning the spa awhile unless you don’t get in for long periods of time and then start soaking frequent (like when winter comes).
3. You spa has gone through a factory wet test that used less than perfect water. In most factories they pump water from spa to spa thereby collecting dust and particles from each.
4. all of the seals and fittings have lubricant and sealant on them and commonly some excess is on the outside of the fittings when the spa is shipped, this comes off and goes into the filter when the spa sets for awhile with hot water. This requires that you soak you filter in a degreaser within the first few weeks.
With a season change here are some of the things that can “stress” the water;
1. White water mold is more prevalent spring and fall, I don’t know the specifics to why but in our area it has, at times, gotten to epidemic proportions some years in those two seasons. We find it most common on stressed “old” water.
2. Most people go back to using their spas in the fall and in the spring after the coldest weather goes away. In addition to this Holiday season seems to greatly increase new bacteria in a spa introduced by guest’s.
3. More people use lotion in the winter than other times of the year for dry skin dependant on area. It could be that more people use tanning lotion in the summer. Regardless, this is a seasonal change that will upset the balance of your water and cause the need for water change more frequently.
The bottom line is that you should change your water once within the first month of ownership and then at least once a season. Don’t get into the trap of adding more chemicals at these times as an attempt to “fix” problems caused by these situations, just change the water!
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Stuart:
I'm having my tub delivered tomorrow and its going to be 30 degrees. How important is it to fill and flush?? Would super-shocking take its place?? Its going to be problematic to change water in January in Connecticut. Hope I can skip until early March or hope for this mild winter to continue. I've learned alot trolling on this board and I can't wait to put it to use. Thanks to all
Jerry
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Yes, sanitizer and shock will help, enzyme will also help but understand that this will add to you TDS (total dissolved solids) and can create other issues so drain and refill when you do get good weather.
Understand, there are other ways to have good water I'm simpley pointing out the easiest....
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Actually, enzymes reduce TDS. They convert organic matter into carbon dioxide (which gases out of the spa) water and salts.
Enzymes also reduce the amount of sanitizer needed, which reduces the chloramines/bromamines left in your spa after oxidation. Those that use ONLY dichlor/bromine have to add enough to do ALL of the chores in the spa, which can be taken care of non-toxically with less maintenance. Adding this much chlorine/bromine increases your TDS at a faster rate, increases your health risk and drys out the natural oils in your hair/skin. Your sanitizer should only be used for killing bacteria.
I use Eco One and small amounts of dichlor. I can easily go 6+ months between water changes, no matter how much it is used. The water will still be as clean and clear as the day i filled it. I doubt this can be done with other treatments.
Eco One will also leave your skin and water feeling soft.
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Actually, enzymes reduce TDS. They convert organic matter into carbon dioxide (which gases out of the spa) water and salts.
Enzymes also reduce the amount of sanitizer needed, which reduces the chloramines/bromamines left in your spa after oxidation. Those that use ONLY dichlor/bromine have to add enough to do ALL of the chores in the spa, which can be taken care of non-toxically with less maintenance. Adding this much chlorine/bromine increases your TDS at a faster rate, increases your health risk and drys out the natural oils in your hair/skin. Your sanitizer should only be used for killing bacteria.
I use Eco One and small amounts of dichlor. I can easily go 6+ months between water changes, no matter how much it is used. The water will still be as clean and clear as the day i filled it. I doubt this can be done with other treatments.
Eco One will also leave your skin and water feeling soft.
A couple of MAJOR concerns I have with that post TC. First off, there is nothing that you can add to water to lower TDS. Including enzymes! They might have their benefits but what you are suggesting is not accurate information at all. Enzymes will help reduce the amount of sanitizer needed and therefore extend water life slightly but that's about it.
It will help reduce scum and odors but the product itself has a TDS to it that can only increase the levels within spa water. Enzymes are not considered a shock treatment for spas.
Steve
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Sorry Steve, you are correct. What i meant was, Enzymes reduce the "rate at which" TDS increases.
FYI, products like Eco One do more than just rid your spa of scum and odors. They balance your pH and alkalinity for the life of your water, elminate scale or other minerals from forming anywhere on your shell or pipes, extends the life of your filters, filters spray WHITE with a garden hose and they make your water and skin feel great.
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Being a Canuck from the frozen tundra of Alberta, I'm not as familiar with Eco 1. We do utilize some enzyme treatments and I've always sold them as a product that will reduce the amount of sanitizer, reduce scum and odor, help stabilize pH and give the water a nice feel.
Thanks for the clarification TC! ;)
Do they really claim that Eco 1 will stabilize pH and alk for the life of the water and if so, is that an accurate statement? Seems a bit broad to me personally... ???
BTW Stuart, good info in that post.
Steve
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steve, yes, Eco One does balance your pH for the life of your water. This is a claim made by the manufacturer and the product lives up to it.
The product contains more than just enzymes (flocking agents, mineral softeners, cleansers, coconut), this is the reason why it outperfomes and offers more benefits than products like Spa Perfect. Plus, you only have to add it once per month and it is non-toxic.
It costs a little more to use than other treatments, but i have found that my filters last twice as long as they did when i was on Baqua and Dichlor/Nature2. This alone makes the product worth the money, along with the ease of use and the way the coconut makes your skin feel. I have a hard time believing that any other treatment is as easy and beneficial to use.
Another thing, my pillows dont fade like they use too with other treatments. I was told by the company that the product puts a light coating (not noticable)of coconut extract on the spa and it's components, which is why they dont fade as fast. This is also the reason why the filters last longer and easily spray clean.
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my pillows dont fade like they use too with other treatments.
I've used just about everything in my spa and have yet to ever have my pillows on my Marquis fade! ;);D
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I don't know how everyone else feels, but FILTERS should last atleast 3-5 years with proper care. IMO dealers that tell you to buy new filters every water change or every year are just out to rip their customers off. Rinsing your filters once a week, or every two weeks and then soaking them in a filter cleaning solution 1-2 times/year will greatly increase the life of your filters!!!! ahhhhhhhhh.rant done ;D
Now onto this eco-1................Have yet to see it, and to my knowledge none of our competitors carry it. But from what i've read on their website, it's similar to other enzyme products on the market today.
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I have used ECO one for nearly 2 years and am very happy with the condition of the spa water. However, I never had "crystal clear" water until I installed Dr Spa's magnets on the return line 2 months ago. Food for thought.
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Tell me your thoughts on this poolboy;
I totally understand what you're saying. It's the one area where people just do as they're told. I even hate the idea of these throw-away filters as I personally believe is just a cash cow for the companies selling them while it prays on the fact that we're all too busy for regular, required maintenence.
I have always been under the undersanding that just rinsing filters will remove the "chunks" but it doesn't address the grease and oils which are the bigger concern.
My recommendations are as follows;
1) Spa owners should have 2 sets of filters as a spa shouldn't be run without filters
2) Filters should be cleaned in a cleaning solution monthly. If the spa has a large amount of debrit entering (ie leaves, pine needles, etc), the filters should be rinsed at least weekly with a garden hose.
3) Alternate filters monthly and make sure the newly cleaned filters are rinsed properly as many cleaners have the tendancy to contribute to foam in the spa.
4) Filters should last approx 1-2 years when cleaned monthly in a cleaning solution designed to remove grease, oils, calcium and minerals.
5) Be careful cleaning filters at car washes as the force can blow apart the pleats.
6) If you have no clue what gets into these filters, feel free to clean them in your dishwaher. :P Once you know the body fluids that accumlate in these pleats, you might think differently... ;D
7) Understand the differences in sq footage for filters that will work with your spa. The higher sq footage isn't always the best answer and they are more expensive.
8) Many dealers offer a commercial filter cleaning service for about $10 - 15.00. Not a bad idea to do this a few times a year for a multi-step deep cleaning. Just make sure they put it in bleach first prior any other solution to kill any bacteria.
That's how I was taught anyway... :)
Steve
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We foolishly "perhaps" include an extra set of filters for all of our customers....We recommend cleaning them after the first 2 weeks for a new spa and than rotating on a monthly baises...soaking over night in a filter cleaner...It is my understanding that the filters should last between 2 to 3 years this way....not the brightest thing we could do for our selfs but I feel it is in the customers best interest long term...I only wish they could appreciate it....
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Steve,
I agree with what you're saying. I was taught slightly differently, but both ways work. We recomend that customers rinse their filters once a week/every 2 weeks at the very least. And then upon draining and refilling soak the filters in the cleaning solution. We also recomend that they purchase an xtra set of filters to swap out while they are cleaning the filters in the solution so they don't lose any spa time. I just get upset b/c some of our competitors tell their customers that they need new filters every year, or I've even heard customers tell me they were told to replace them every time they drain & refill. The customers bring their old filter in to match them up and they look brand new almost!!!!!! That's what gets me. I've seen filters that are 8 years old and still look good as new, and these are from customers who use their spa 3 times a week year round too!!!! With proper care and routine maintenance filters WILL LAST.
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Steve;
Re: #7 above. Filters are a part of the "landmine" portion of my presentation.
I agree that filter size can and will be used to lead customers to beleive that water will cleaner. This is only true to an extent.
I preach that filters are like garbage cans. Other than a couple of exeptions, they are all made of the same material. What changes is the maintenence aspect.
I always comment that "..my Beachcomber customers with 25 sq ft filters had/have clean, clear water. What they had to do to maintain this was rinse the filters every week or two. " Then I point to a Coleman " now this tub has 75 sq ft of filtration resulting in less maintenance" and then the D-1 with 150 sq'.
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I preach that filters are like garbage cans. Other than a couple of exeptions, they are all made of the same material. What changes is the maintenence aspect.
I always comment that "..my Beachcomber customers with 25 sq ft filters had/have clean, clear water. What they had to do to maintain this was rinse the filters every week or two. " Then I point to a Coleman " now this tub has 75 sq ft of filtration resulting in less maintenance" and then the D-1 with 150 sq'.
Hmm. Sounds good for the Vista with over 300 sq'. Cool.
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Hmm. Sounds good for the Vista with over 300 sq'. Cool.
You know, I’m beginning to get the distinct impression that you like the Vista……
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yeah...yeah....that sounds impressive....until you know about a certain spa with only one magical 900 sq ft filter which all others pale in comparison ....no wait....it works like a 900 sq ft filter.....as for its real size....well.....lol...that is another tale....
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Maybe it was 900 Sq INCHES Mendo? ??? ;D
So reading all this about massive sq footage filters, I have to ask...
How did I own a 350 gallon spa that was used by 4 people 4 times a week average that utilized a 25 sq ft filter and maintain sparkling, clear water? These filters cost me about $35.00 Can and 2 would last me a couple of years by alternating them.
I'd like to know the cost of these 300+ sq ft filters and how much longer do they last? Is the maintenance any different? I cleaned mine once a month (about 10 minutes out of my life monthly) so I'm just trying to justify why any spa requires these larger ones? ??? Marketing? ???
I had the option of having the same size filter but in a 50 sq ft but opted to go with the 25 because it did a great job and was easier to clean.
I'm not trying to be an a$$, but rather trying understand the need... I could imagine it's an easy sell against smaller filters cause we all know that BIGGER IS BETTER right? ??? My question is it really necessary? Sell me boys!! ;D
Steve
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I have a stupid question for you, if I have a vacuum cleaner with a bigger bag than your vacuum, does that mean mine cleans better....?
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How did I own a 350 gallon spa that was used by 4 people 4 times a week average that utilized a 25 sq ft filter and maintain sparkling, clear water? These filters cost me about $35.00 Can and 2 would last me a couple of years by alternating them.
I was agreeing with you up to here Steve. The point I was making is that if you could rinse those filters monthly, then you could rinse a 75 sq ft quarterly. That said, both spas being of equal size, you would have more room inside yours since my "garbage can" is bigger.
I'd like to know the cost of these 300+ sq ft filters and how much longer do they last?
I too would like to know, Triex and regular.
Is the maintenance any different?
Nope, just less often.
I had the option of having the same size filter but in a 50 sq ft but opted to go with the 25 because it did a great job and was easier to clean.
I know what you mean as a former Beachcomber dealer. I would rather rinse the Coleman 75 sq ft than the D-1 75 sq ft since the Coleman is a few inches taller, therfore a lesser pleat density.
I'm not trying to be an a$$,
You're preachin' to the choir
but rather trying understand the need
No need just more convenience
... I could imagine it's an easy sell against smaller filters cause we all know that BIGGER IS BETTER right? ??? My question is it really necessary? Sell me boys!! ;D
How did I do ?
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I have a stupid question for you, if I have a vacuum cleaner with a bigger bag than your vacuum, does that mean mine cleans better....?
Nicely put!
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So if I understand this correctly, multiple filters or filters with larger sq footage don't filter any better, they just require cleaning less often.
Is that the suggestion?
What if you took a similar size filter and used it in different types of spas? Doesn't the type of filtration play as big a role if not bigger than just the sq footage of any one filter? When we consider the variations of filtration available in different spas like Beachcomber's lily pad, Jacuzzi double filter w/skimmer bag inside the large container, Hydropool's pressurized filtration with the self clean feature, HotSprings floating skimmer filtration with Tri-X™ 3-dimensional filters, etc., is the question more the way in which it filters and possibly too much emphases on the SIZE of the filter itself?
How much is overkill or over-marketing?
Steve
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So if I understand this correctly, multiple filters or filters with larger sq footage don't filter any better, they just require cleaning less often.
Is that the suggestion?
What if you took a similar size filter and used it in different types of spas? Doesn't the type of filtration play as big a role if not bigger than just the sq footage of any one filter? When we consider the variations of filtration available in different spas like Beachcomber's lily pad, Jacuzzi double filter w/skimmer bag inside the large container, Hydropool's pressurized filtration with the self clean feature, HotSprings floating skimmer filtration with Tri-X™ 3-dimensional filters, etc., is the question more the way in which it filters and possibly too much emphases on the SIZE of the filter itself?
How much is overkill or over-marketing?
Steve
It's my belief that there is a happy medium to how big and how many. I personally like the closed loop system but that requires enough filter for proper flow. As far as size I think that if you have a "bypass" system you need a large enough filter to not worry about how much is bypassing due to your filter getting a bit dirty, a pressure system can provide that somewhat but I’m not a fan of that type system. That’s not to say it doesn’t work, it’s just not my preference.
I guess what I'm saying is that I want some level of cleanliness even if I'm not timely in my maintenance....
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I'm not trying to antagonize bud but don't hurt yourself sitting on the fence! ;D
Seriously though, I know exactly what you mean. I guess that's the point in all of this (if I had one... ;D)
The promotion of multi numbers of filters with massave square footage doesn't necessarily equate to better, cleaner water. Heck, I've proved that with a single 25 sq ft filter for a number of years.
Every spa out there will offer a certain level of filtration that is adequate for normal residential use. Some will filter more and more often but consumers shouldn't have to worry about chunks floating around in their spas if they don't have 9 filters with a total of 36,000 sq ft. ;)
I would like to get opinions of pressurized filtration systems from you guys. Advantages/disadvantages..
I have always sold against them but now that I've seen them operate more closely and understand them better, I really like it. Not just cause I get paid to either! ;D
If a pressurized system is good enough for every swimming pool filtration system, I'm thinking it should have its benefits in a spa? Opinions?
Steve
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I'm not trying to antagonize bud but don't hurt yourself sitting on the fence! ;D
Seriously though, I know exactly what you mean. I guess that's the point in all of this (if I had one... ;D)
First off, in order for a pressure system to work effectively wouldn't it have to be on the "Pressure" side of the pump? If not then wouldn't it be a "suction filter"? So if it's on the pressure side of the pump then wouldn't that mean that all of the hair, debris and bacteria go through the pump and contaminate the impellor? So lets say it's on the suction side, then isn't that killing the principles of how a pressure filter is supposed to work?
The promotion of multi numbers of filters with massave square footage doesn't necessarily equate to better, cleaner water. Heck, I've proved that with a single 25 sq ft filter for a number of years.
Now it's my turn to say I'm not trying to antagonize and that I truly respect your experience and knowledge so take it as a bit of tongue in cheek when I say, don't get "James like" on us and say that 80% of the industry that has gone away from a pressure filter or just doesn't use it is nuts because your brand has proven it to be effective! Your usage might not be equivalent to mine and I might contaminate the water more than you regardless, I've owned both type systems also and prefer an open filter, closed loop system that stops more particulate by having NO BYPASS! I also don't think one 25 square foot filter is enough to adequately handle a multi pump system but on the other hand I believe that 4 and 5 filter systems are a bit of overkill.
Every spa out there will offer a certain level of filtration that is adequate for normal residential use. Some will filter more and more often but consumers shouldn't have to worry about chunks floating around in their spas if they don't have 9 filters with a total of 36,000 sq ft. ;)
There is no "normal" residential use, everyone uses and maintains their spa a bit different...
I would like to get opinions of pressurized filtration systems from you guys. Advantages/disadvantages..
My opinion; yes they can be effective but I still don't like them.
First let's talk about why I think they can be effective; as I said before even as your filter gets dirty the pressure will still allow water to travel through the canister and you are less likely to cavitate a pump.
Second let's talk about why I don't like them; I hate the cap and ring configuration for ease of removal. I don't like the scum build up on the cap and around the top of the canister when you go to clean your filter. I have had more failures per capita (mostly broken parts and "O" rings) of pressure system than any other filtration system I have dealt with over the years other than the big flat filter on the Master Spas. And in case I haven't said it enough, most pressure filters are on the pressure side of the pump allowing contamination of the pump and impellor on an ongoing basis. Finally I think you get better skimming action with a topside filter that creates a vortex around the filter. You deal with much more oil in a spa than a pool due to the hot water and need to constantly "skim" those oils off of the top.
I have always sold against them but now that I've seen them operate more closely and understand them better, I really like it. Not just cause I get paid to either! ;D
If a pressurized system is good enough for every swimming pool filtration system, I'm thinking it should have its benefits in a spa? Opinions?
Steve
Most of us that have been in the industry for a while have sold or dealt with Pressure filters even the HotSpring guys (on the old Hot Spot) so we have seen both operate. I think that if pressure systems were better that the majority of the industry would not have moved away from them.
Here's my question to you, what would your feelings be if Hydro moved away from that system next year?
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Stuart, great thread.
Regarding filters - I have to agree with you, although I once met a lady who told me that size didn't matter as much as how you used it.
Anyway, I clean my filter once a month. and water change every 3 months.
Regards, Zz
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Well, the bigger the filter the less often it needs to be cleaned. I don't see why this seems to be more important to me than to some of you fine folks. And the new Tri-X filters are just that: new. So to say they will last exctly four years longer would be impossible to back up, which is why Watkins has told us to say, "they will easily outlast the standard filters, perhaps by as much as double or more."
I empty and refill my Vista about every three months, and I'm on my third water change without cleaning the filters once.
I brought home the filters from the Vista in our Ventura store and ran them through the dishwasher. It was easy and they came out looking great! We needed to do this after about six months of having oily people water test the spa. With the old system, it would often require a good thoroug rinse after each water test - at leas of the circ pump filter, and often all five.
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Well, the bigger the filter the less often it needs to be cleaned. I don't see why this seems to be more important to me than to some of you fine folks. And the new Tri-X filters are just that: new. So to say they will last exctly four years longer would be impossible to back up, which is why Watkins has told us to say, "they will easily outlast the standard filters, perhaps by as much as double or more."
I empty and refill my Vista about every three months, and I'm on my third water change without cleaning the filters once.
I brought home the filters from the Vista in our Ventura store and ran them through the dishwasher. It was easy and they came out looking great! We needed to do this after about six months of having oily people water test the spa. With the old system, it would often require a good thoroug rinse after each water test - at leas of the circ pump filter, and often all five.
Chas;
What is the cost to replace the 300 sq ft of filtration in your Vista? Tri-X and pleated?