Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: bulmer4nc on October 18, 2004, 10:32:52 am
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We are using Bromine in our spa with an ozonator and the Spa Frog. We're only about 2 weeks into new water and we've got a bit of haze to the water. Probably a stretch to say that it's really cloudy but it's definitly not crystal clear either.
We've tried clarifier and shock a couple of times and the Alk/Ph seem to be ok (Alk is about 80 and ph is around 7.6) Hardness is fine too at around 200 and the bromine level is around 2ppm right now. But I think that's also fine as we have an ozonator and spa frog.
Based on another thread it looks like I was shocking with too little MPS. Our bottle said 2 tbsp (1.5oz) for 500 gallons was about right. Sounds like that is only 1 oz. and not enough. I figured this was likely the cause of our 'haze'. So, I shocked again last night with 2.5oz (5tbsp) and there doesn't appear to be much difference.
I see a lot of talk on this board about shocking with dichlor instead of MPS. Is this for people that use dichlor as a sanitizer? Or does this apply to those using bromine as well?
Any suggestions on what I should try to get rid of my hazey water? I've cleaned the filters and ran longer filtration cycles and that doesn't appear to do much either. Or should I expect it to take longer than overnight after shocking to see a difference? I guess I can go down the road of trying what others have suggested and try the cycle of shock / clarifier until I see a difference. I would think that I shouldn't have to do this with 2 week old water though.
Guess my big concern right now is that I'm shocking properly and using the right shock for my current chemical choices. 2oz a week of MPS should do the trick with bromine/ozone/spa frog right?
Any thoughts?
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Well... Didn't get much feedback here. :'(
Anyhow, the 'haze' seems better. 3 oz of SeaKlear clarifier seemed to do the trick. Even with that much there's no foam. I got tons of foam when I used the Liesure Time Bright and Clear. Interesting...
As for shock, does anyone out there have any thoughts on the best way to shock a bromine spa? As it stands right now I'm using MPS but still wonder if shocking with dichlor is a better way to go as it is suggested here so many times.
And, is it true that MPS will only increase TDS when you are using dichlor as a sanitizer?
Ken
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Ken,
I am very new to the water chemistry game. We have had our Jacuzzi (approx 375 gallon capacity)hot tub for approx 2 months, and use bromine as a sanitizer with weekly MPS shocks. Until 2 weeks ago I used a 2 part bromine system. The MPS is unbuffered pool shock.
I find I have been able to maintain crystal clear water for approx 6 days a week. Usually the last day the water will have a a very slight haze to it. The tub is used daily (2-3 people) and there is usually one multiple (4-5 hours) hour social that occurs on a weekly basis. The users generally do not shower before entering the tub.
I have found that adding sanitizer a couple of hours before the weekly social will help keep the water clear.
On a weekly basis I add 2 tablespoons of the unbuffered MPS and run both pumps for approx 1/2 hour. I then add some alkalinity increaser with the goal of keeping alk at 120 ppm. I also check that pH is in range. I then add approx 2 tbps of polymer and run all pumps with air injection for approx 40 minutes. There is usually some "sludge" along the water line that needs to be removed. I then switch-out the filters. The water remains crystal clear for the next 6 days with daily sanitizer addition.
As stated above, approx 2 weeks ago I switched from the 2 part bromine system to a combined dichlor and bromine sanitizer. Results-Water clarity has been very good and the system is easier to use.
Hope this helps.
Dave
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Ken,
I am very new to the water chemistry game. We have had our Jacuzzi (approx 375 gallon capacity)hot tub for approx 2 months, and use bromine as a sanitizer with weekly MPS shocks. Until 2 weeks ago I used a 2 part bromine system. The MPS is unbuffered pool shock.
I find I have been able to maintain crystal clear water for approx 6 days a week. Usually the last day the water will have a a very slight haze to it. The tub is used daily (2-3 people) and there is usually one multiple (4-5 hours) hour social that occurs on a weekly basis. The users generally do not shower before entering the tub.
I have found that adding sanitizer a couple of hours before the weekly social will help keep the water clear.
On a weekly basis I add 2 tablespoons of the unbuffered MPS and run both pumps for approx 1/2 hour. I then add some alkalinity increaser with the goal of keeping alk at 120 ppm. I also check that pH is in range. I then add approx 2 tbps of polymer and run all pumps with air injection for approx 40 minutes. There is usually some "sludge" along the water line that needs to be removed. I then switch-out the filters. The water remains crystal clear for the next 6 days with daily sanitizer addition.
As stated above, approx 2 weeks ago I switched from the 2 part bromine system to a combined dichlor and bromine sanitizer. Results-Water clarity has been very good and the system is easier to use.
Hope this helps.
Dave
Thanks for your commends Dave. At this point I haven't quite given up on Bromine tablets in the weir gate and MPS for shocking. I'm going to go a few more weeks with shocking once a week with 2oz (4tbsp) of MPS and will probably try 1oz of the SeaKlear clarifier weekly (or more if it helps) too and see how things go. I've used 4 oz of that clarifier since Sat. and there's been no signs of any foam. Guess we'll just wait and see.
Ken
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This is a subject about which I am still cloudy after a number of years as a spa owner. Why do we need to SHOCK at all? There must be someone who can provide a reasonable explanation. I'm all eyes.
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Hi Bulmer4NC. I have an 04 Optima. I posted this a while back, but will do a short version here. My dealer has me on the following program: I use "National Pool" house brand bromine tablets, three in the basket. Sometimes I toss in an extra when the three get worn down, but essentially try to keep 3 full tabs or the equivalent at all times. I use Diamond Sani Spa dichlor 97% after each use or maybe not exactly every use. Certainly no more than 3 soaks between use. I toss in about a table measuring device amount and let the pump and blower run for a few minutes. Re cloudy water, I have found the filter needs cleaning when the water gets cloudy. Maybe hose it out every 10 days top two weeks. If it gets cloudy, a ounce of "Spa Blue" gunk seems to clear the water after a filter cycle or two. The only problems I really get is when teenaged daughter units and friends soak, with hair gel and whatever else they slather on. Then, I get the foam and a dirty filter almost the next day. Also, beware of non rinsed bathing suits. Daughters tend to put three loads of wash in at a time, and I think the rinse cycle does not clear the soap from the suits. Both are in college now, and suits are not usually an issue anymore. Good luck.
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Thanks for the info cparlf. So, you're bromine tablets and doing small shocks with dichlor a few times a week (or more)? You're not doing a big weekly shock at all?
As for the filters, I've been hosing them off every Saturday and every 4 weeks I use the spray cleaner.
Ken
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bulmer4NC
SeaKlear clarifier works differently than others. It does not create a foam like the Spa Brite and Clear. It binds together the organics and makes larger particles so that they will get trapped and held by the filters. That is why you are not seeing any foam. I prefer the SeaKlear over the others for this reason.
:)
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Hey Aztec:
“Shocking” is used for killing organic compounds (algae, other bugs, etc) that slowly accumulate in your water, even in the presence of sanitizer, over time. I suppose a good analogy might be found in washing a car. You might wash it weekly to keep it “clean”, but at some point it will need to be stripped (or buffed out) and new wax applied to restore the finish that has dulled over time.
High temperature water is a difficult medium to keep free of organic compounds, no matter how hard you try. You could dramatically increase base sanitation to eliminate organics completely, BUT, you still have to sit in and enjoy the water. Unless you’re Tony Stark (aka “Ironman”) HIGH sanitation is a little rough on the skin. So, instead, we settle for a once weekly treatment to kill off the bad stuff. This takes care of the problem while simultaneously allowing enjoyment of the water.
Keep cool...
Drewski
8)
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I sanitize with Bromine (Spa Frog) and use MPS to shock. MPS directions say to use 2 oz for my gallonage. 24 hrs later my test strips indicate bromine levels well over 10 PPM. Is this normal? Does the MPS cause bad bromine readings on the test strips? Shocked yesterday and used only 1.5 oz MPS and still the bromine reads way high 18 hrs later. Also, seems like MPS lowers the PH and TA. Any others notice this?
???
txwillie
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another thing about my last post and the PH/TA levels. My last house had an in ground pool. My pool supply guy told me that if the chlorine levels were really high (after a major shocking) that the chlorine actually bleached out the test strips and the PH and TA would look low because of that. Could high Bromine do the same?
txwillie
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This is a subject about which I am still cloudy after a number of years as a spa owner. Why do we need to SHOCK at all? There must be someone who can provide a reasonable explanation. I'm all eyes.
I thought I shoud elaborate on Drewski's comments.
Shocking does what Drewski said, but it also elinates chloramines and bromamines in the water. As chlorine and bromine "neutralize" organics, the snitizer also attaches itself to these organics. The byproduct is the aforementioned **amines. The cl/bromamines are more irritating to the nose, skin and eyes than cl/br on there own. Shocking (oxidizing) allows these byproducts to leave the tub in the form of a nitrogen gas. This why you need to leave the cover off, to allow these gases to escape. Shocking is done by super chlorinating or with another oxidizer like MPS.
Shocking is a term that seems to be mis-used alot on this forum. I have seen it used to describe sanitizing and oxidizing. Some products like dichlor can be used both to sanitize and oxidize, it just depends on the dosage rate.
Hope this helps;
HotTubMan
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Shocking is a term that seems to be mis-used alot on this forum. I have seen it used to describe sanitizing and oxidizing. Some products like dichlor can be used both to sanitize and oxidize, it just depends on the dosage rate.
Hope this helps;
HotTubMan
Thanks HotTubMan. From your post, it seems I still need to "shock" periodically. How do I shock vs "toss in a small amount of dichlor after every second or third use? What ppm of dichlor gives me an official shock to the tub?
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Thanks HotTubMan. From your post, it seems I still need to "shock" periodically. How do I shock vs "toss in a small amount of dichlor after every second or third use? What ppm of dichlor gives me an official shock to the tub?
10-15 PPM of dichlor. Different if you are using MPS. Offer us your tubs displacement and you will get many posters offering their dichlor/mps mixtures for effective oxidizing.
HotTubMan
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Jumping in here for a suggestion. ;D Newbie to this chemical stuff. I have a 400 gal. tub. I have been using 1 tsp. of dichlor after each use (UV ozonator in use). Everything seems to be ok. What would the recommended "shock" of weekly dichlor be? Thanks!
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Hello Steve771;
35 grams or 1 tablethingy should do it provided you do not have a free/total chlorine variance greater than 1PPM. Basically you would need 1 tablespoon/1PPM vartiance between total and availible chlorine. Hope this helps.
HotTubMan
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Thanks HotTubMan, I'll give that a shot. I suppose this sounds stupid, but how long should chlorine show up in the system? Is that 1ppm a constant (or a desired constant)? Mine seems to drop off between uses (which is once a day, and right after getting out, I throw a tsp of dichlor in).
Also, my Ph is running high (not super high, but at the very top of the range). I tried bringing it down with the envelope of "spa down" from Leisure Time that came with the chem kit, but it stays up. Any suggestions there on what to use? Thanks! :)
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Thanks HotTubMan, I'll give that a shot. I suppose this sounds stupid, but how long should chlorine show up in the system? Is that 1ppm a constant (or a desired constant)? Mine seems to drop off between uses (which is once a day, and right after getting out, I throw a tsp of dichlor in).
Also, my Ph is running high (not super high, but at the very top of the range). I tried bringing it down with the envelope of "spa down" from Leisure Time that came with the chem kit, but it stays up. Any suggestions there on what to use? Thanks! :)
Perhaps you misunderstood. If you are just using chlorine to sanitize, maintain a 3-5PPM of cl. I was suggesting that a tablespoon would oxidize your water adequately if there is a 1PPM variance between toatl cl and availible cl. Maybe you did understand, just want to make sure.
High PH is common in tubs, especially with high jet counts. If your tub is running filter cycles with a massage pump (as opposed to a circ pump) and you have your venturi air valves open, your pH will rise. I always recommend that customers turn air valves off after use and also to leave diverters in the centre/split position as much as possible. The reason for the diverters is to ensure circulation through ALL of the plumbing regularly. I have had customers leave diverters in one position for a long time, this can result in a nasty mould in the stagnent plumbing.
There may be many causes for the high pH besides airation and bathers. How is tha TA? high TA will drag up your pH.
HotTubMan
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The reason for the diverters is to ensure circulation through ALL of the plumbing regularly. I have had customers leave diverters in one position for a long time, this can result in a nasty mould in the stagnent plumbing.
Interesting HTM. I never thought of that. We have one diverter setting that works the best for us. Will turn the diverters so that all the plumbing is involved when sanitizing. Thanks
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Ok, gotcha on the variance vs. constant. But is "constant" really constant as in continual? Doesn't chlorine dissapate over time? Should you take a reading 10-15 minutes after adding and go by that? And I'm assuming after a shock, one needs to wait until the chlorine tests in that range, and that would vary by tub size in how long it takes?
Ref. my TA, it is also high, about 130-140 ppm. I figured that might be causing my Ph problem. What would you suggest to bring the TA and Ph into the proper range?
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Ok, gotcha on the variance vs. constant. But is "constant" really constant as in continual? Doesn't chlorine dissapate over time? Should you take a reading 10-15 minutes after adding and go by that? And I'm assuming after a shock, one needs to wait until the chlorine tests in that range, and that would vary by tub size in how long it takes?
Ref. my TA, it is also high, about 130-140 ppm. I figured that might be causing my Ph problem. What would you suggest to bring the TA and Ph into the proper range?
Your "spa down" is used to lower both TA and pH. Unfortunately adding a quantity of spa down to lower your TA in one shot would lowewr your pH to a dangerously low level. Therefore you lower your TA by adding some (TBSP+) spa down each day for 2-4 days. Once TA is in line you will be able to manage your pH much easier.
As for the clorine after shocking, one hour with the cover off is fine.
Your cl will dissapear even when you are not using the tub. This means its killing something.
HTM
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Thanks for the guidance. That info on the TA vs. the Ph is really helpful. My original TA was higher, and I did add some Spa Down to get it where it is. However, I was a little concerned that the Ph wasn't really dropping. Now I understand how they interact and will keep at it. (it's really nice to know I'm on the right track! ::))
I did notice that some recommendations call for TA of 80-100 (like on my test strips) and others call for it as high as 130 (like in my manual). Seems like quite a bit of variation!
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I have worked at two stores that used different parameters for TA. The first was 125-150, the second was 80-120. I feel that 80-120 is more effective in a spa or concretepool while 125-150 is more effective for a vinyl pool. I found my customers at the first store constanly had high pH and low TA. At the second store TA and pH require less adjustments.
MyTwoCents
HTM
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Here's a trick for raising and/or lowering your TA. If your tub has a "stand - by" mode, put your tub on stand - by (this shuts off the crc. pump). Once your jets and circ pump have been off for 10 mins, add the appropriate ammount of Alkalinity increaser or pH down into one spot in the middle of the spa. After 10 mins (take the spa out of stand-by mode) turn the jets on high, and let the spa run for 30 mins. This will increase/decrease the TA w/o effecting the pH all that much.
As for the parameters of TA and pH. If you shock with MPS on a regular basis or if you use Nature 2 / D-1's Vision Cart. you might want to keep the TA a lil higher. The reason for this is that the MPS will bring the TA down over time. Also Nature 2 / Vision has a pH of 7.9, keeping the TA higher will help stabilize the pH and prevent "pH creep." Just my two cents.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Spas Dealer
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Why does it matter how you add the pH down? I thought the wait period was for it to dissolve in the water. If you pre-dissolve it in a bucket, does this have the same effect? ???
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"When adding chemicals you normally run some jets so the chemicals can mix in the water with one exception and that is any PH Decrease product. With any PH Decrease product it is best just to add it to the water and wait about 30 minutes before turning on jets. The reason for this is that because adding an acid to your spa if it gets directly into your pumps or heater it could cause some damage. That is why we try to maintain our PH above 7.2"
From the FAQ at "that other site".
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Yup, I read that too, but if you dissolve the crystals in water first, does that still hold true? ???
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"When adding chemicals you normally run some jets so the chemicals can mix in the water with one exception and that is any PH Decrease product. With any PH Decrease product it is best just to add it to the water and wait about 30 minutes before turning on jets. The reason for this is that because adding an acid to your spa if it gets directly into your pumps or heater it could cause some damage. That is why we try to maintain our PH above 7.2"
From the FAQ at "that other site".
Does this hold true for liquid Spa Down too?
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The "trick" Jason described is what we call "slugging". It can be done in swimming pools too. The water needs to be at a dead calm so I always tell customers to wait a couple of hours before and after. When you pour in the acid, try to pour slow as if filling a jar just below the surface. You dont want to broadcast. I am told that if the water is clear you can actually see particles moving toward the acid concentration. If you stir it too soon that would be a bad acid trip and just lower your PH. Dude.
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Yup, I read that too, but if you dissolve the crystals in water first, does that still hold true? ???
The way I read it - yes.
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The "trick" Jason described is what we call "slugging"....Dude.
Dude,
We save our "slugging" for those killer pitchers of Sam Adams......URP!
8)
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Sam Adams...... it's not just for breakfast anymore. :o
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With the HS Everfresh system (Ozone and Silver Ion), I use 2 Tblsp of MPS before every use and DiChlor as a shock every week. So far no problems.
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I sanitize with Bromine (Spa Frog) and use MPS to shock. MPS directions say to use 2 oz for my gallonage. 24 hrs later my test strips indicate bromine levels well over 10 PPM. Is this normal? Does the MPS cause bad bromine readings on the test strips? Shocked yesterday and used only 1.5 oz MPS and still the bromine reads way high 18 hrs later. Also, seems like MPS lowers the PH and TA. Any others notice this?
???
txwillie
I have this exact same problem. Did you find a solution? I'm dealing with cloudy water right now. The shocking didn't help. I'm off to the store for some clarifier. I'm hoping to bring back my crystal clear water. We didn't use the spa for two days and I opened it up to cloud city. All my other levels seem to be fine with the exception of my alk that is running a bit low. UGH!
Elle
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I have this exact same problem. Did you find a solution? I'm dealing with cloudy water right now. The shocking didn't help. I'm off to the store for some clarifier. I'm hoping to bring back my crystal clear water. We didn't use the spa for two days and I opened it up to cloud city. All my other levels seem to be fine with the exception of my alk that is running a bit low. UGH!
Elle
What do you have your Frog Bromine cartridge set to? When did you change it last?
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What do you have your Frog Bromine cartridge set to? When did you change it last?
Good question, and one I was going to ask...although in a different way. How do you know when to change the cartridge? I have always kept mine open to 2. I thought it was time to change but I can still hear a bunch of bromine in it when I shake it. I have it wide open right now. When should I just throw it out? Will it be completely empty?
Elle
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Good question, and one I was going to ask...although in a different way. How do you know when to change the cartridge? I have always kept mine open to 2. I thought it was time to change but I can still hear a bunch of bromine in it when I shake it. I have it wide open right now. When should I just throw it out? Will it be completely empty?
Elle
If you have it wide open and are still low on Bromine that's part of your problem. Yes it's out and needs replaced. It does take a while to get used to your system but once you do, you will see the bromine level beginning to drop and know that you need to replace it. You should be able to leave it on 2-3 all of the time and be fine. Don't look for perfect color on your test strips as far as bromine level. Your test strips are generic and don't take the ozone and minerals in to account. At 2 on that cartridge you should last about a month 3 will drop it by about a week. When you get a new one, get some granular bromine and hit the spa with a good shot. I would also drain the water if this is the first fill and it will get easier from here out.
The thumping you hear in your cartridge is probably just the leftover filler.