Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jbeernink on November 09, 2004, 01:40:29 pm
-
I want to decide between a Hotspring Envoy and a Sundance Cameo tonight. Quotation closes.
Both Spas are the same in price overhere. (Wet) Testing didn't make a difference for me. Does anybody have relevant experience or tips for me. For example with regards to quality of filtering, operating cost, general experience, etc?
My comparism looks as follow:
Cameo Envoy
____________________________________________-
6 persons 5 persons
more jets less jets
lightning multiple color lights
aroma (smell possiblity) no aroma therapy
1 filter more filters
Who helps me out?
Thank you very much.
-
Get the Envoy.
-
Any reason in particular?
you might answer also to:
j.beernink@samsung.com
Thanks,
Jos
-
Get the Cameo.
-
I wish I could tell you which to buy but they are very even. BTW, I would give little to no value to that aroma thereapy thingamajig. Its pretty useless and you'll get the same effect or better from using the liquid scents (though I'm not big on adding of that stuff but realize some love 'em).
Do you feel equally confident in each dealer to go the extra mile for you both before AND after the sale?
-
DONT LISTEN TO CHRIS H. He's only trying to confuse you. ;)
Get the Envoy. :)
Heads its the Envoy. Tails its the Cameo.
( unless it comes up tails then its 2 out of 3 ) :P
-
Owning a spa with the aroma thing (Optima), I would certainly not use it at all as a criteria. However, the air blower which is part of the aromatherapy is much enjoyed by some in the family. Techncially, doesn't the Cameo have 2 filters? One being the main pleated filter, and the other being the micro filter?
Don't think you'll make a wrong decision between the two.
Brewman
-
When you talk about being confident in going each mile before and after the sales my question would be: Do you mean y buying the supplies or are there other reasons to visit a dealer during th usage period. Can I expect servie issues or something else?
-
. BTW, I would give little to no value to that aroma thereapy thingamajig. Its pretty useless
I second that notion. I was in a similar situation as you, but went with a different spa all together because of dealer comfort. I did end up with a unit with a dry aroma therapy whoozewhatsit, and I agree worthless.
-
Heads its the Envoy. Tails its the Cameo.
( unless it comes up tails then its 2 out of 3 ) :P
Funny, it was between two different tubs, but I actually tried this approach.
Sorry salesdvl, it didn't work!
-
Hey, as long as it's "scientific"; anyway you arrive at the decision is ok by me. :D
-
Love my Envoy, don't have a Cameo - Sorry
-
The place where I purchased my spa sells both HotSpring and Sundance side by side. I won't mention what they sell more of. Personally, I prefer a spa without a lounger, but I would have purchased a HotSpring if I didn't get the Sundance. Both spas will serve you well.
I agree that the aromatherapy does not add a lot of scent, but the air jets are a nice feature on a warm summer night with a tub full of people.
-
My comparism looks as follow:
Cameo Envoy
____________________________________________-
6 persons 5 persons
more jets less jets
lightning multiple color lights
aroma (smell possiblity) no aroma therapy
1 filter more filters
Who helps me out?
Thank you very much.
The comparison is incomplete. Under Jets, you should have: SD=more jets. HS=more variety of jets. For example, there is the MotoMassage Jet, the Soothing Seven jets, the Precision jets, HydroStream jets, HydroMassage (interchangeable) jets, JetStream jets - and you can add spinners to the Precision Jets.
As to lighting: HS uses LED (as do most makers these days) but ours can be dimmed, and they change colors in sync with the LEDs in the fountain.
More filters = better system. HS filters all the water that any pump is moving. Result? In ten minutes an Envoy can do what takes an hour or more in other spas.
Aroma therapy = HS frees you to use any fragrance made by any of a dozen makers. These products are designed for use in spas, and they don't do anything negative to the spa or the water balance. Also, they can be enjoyed without having to run a blower (or anthing that makes noise, for that matter..)
-
Both companies, Sundance and Hot Spring are top notch. For me it was between the SD Cameo and the HS Vista. I choose the Vista for a number of reasons. My dealer is top notch, and HS is top notch when it comes to customer satisfaction, but the 100% filtering was a big factor for me. I like the all of the water has to go thru the filters before it is pumped back onto me. There's something about having my sweat, etc. being recycled without getting filtered that bothered my wife.
BTW, the HS Vista (6 person) shouldn't be that much more that the Cameo, at least not where I live.
Jonathan
-
Get the Envoy.
Like I said.
-
OK my turn (boy do I hate coming in late to a debate ;D )
We looked at both the Enovy and Cameo/Optima when we were shopping around. Envoy (in our area) was way out of our price so we went and tried both the Cameo and Optima and liked the Cameo better. Now as for the aroma therapy thingamagig. We don't use the Sundance stuff but I came across some stuff (at the Hotsprings dealer of all places) and Doc sells it on his site and it really seems to put out some aroma. I mean not over powering but it does work. And we have tried the liquids and were very disapointed. I know and agree with Brewman and wouldn't use this or the waterfall feature as a major part of the decision. I think you would do good with either. I love my Cameo and wouldn't trade it for anything.
Have you thought about wet testing again back to back if possible? As others have said which dealer gave you the best warm fuzzy feeling.? :-/
-
When you talk about being confident in going each mile before and after the sales my question would be: Do you mean y buying the supplies or are there other reasons to visit a dealer during th usage period. Can I expect servie issues or something else?
What I mean is Customer Service. Some dealers are great at helping you get started and being there for you with questions, concerns, problems, etc. Others may seem less apt to give you the attention you need after the sale.
BTW, one other thing in your comparison. Both of these spas are nearly identical in footprint and volume yet one says its a 5 person and the other say its a 6 person. Maybe one has more open seating but this is an area I'd probably give little weight to.
-
(boy do I hate coming in late to a debate ;D )
I know. Everyone looks at you and you always stumble into your seat. :D
-
I know. Everyone looks at you and you always stumble into your seat. :D
No fair you looked!!! I tried to be graceful but it is so hard in these damn high heels. ;D
-
BTW, one other thing in your comparison. Both of these spas are nearly identical in footprint and volume yet one says its a 5 person and the other say its a 6 person. Maybe one has more open seating but this is an area I'd probably give little weight to.
Yes in the Envoy one of the seats - Captin's seat - has arm rest with jets on it. So yse it would make a tish tosh less room. Funny thing is that is the very seat my husband was drooling after.
-
No fair you looked!!! I tried to be graceful but it is so hard in these damn high heels. ;D
How could I not look. You were making so much noise it woke me up ! :o
-
not even a contest to compare the two.... hot spring spas have a bottom drain.... why don't the sundance ......... very easy to answer INSULATION equals operating costs... Your never hear a hot spring spa run and you dont PROGRAM IT.. HUMMMM DON'T FALL PREY TO SUNDANCE....
-
YOU LONG WILL FORGET THE COST OF THE SPA BUT NEVER FORGET YOUR QUALITY AND YOUR ELECTRIC BILL..IF YOU DONT HAVE THE MONEY SAVE IT AND BUY SMART.. NOT EMOTIONALLY
-
Shannon,
I take offense to your comments, as do many Sundance customers.
Your quote: “hot spring spas have a bottom drain....”
For some odd reason 2004 Sundance’s drain completely except in the little crevasse where the seats are. Don’t tell me that when you drain an Envoy or a Grandee that no water stays in the seats. I am sure you still have to do some bailing.
Your quote: “very easy to answer INSULATION equals operating costs...”
I have no idea what you are talking about insulation and operating costs. There isn’t much difference between the two manufacturers insulation.
Your quote: “Your never hear a hot spring spa run and you dont PROGRAM IT”
Truthfully, having the option to program your spa, I would consider a benefit especially if the consumer was getting heavy use out of the spa. It is obviously better than not having the option.
In the Sundance spa line, you don’t need to set a filter time, but Sundance also gives you the option. The Spa owner can have it filter 24 hours a day using the circulation pump. Just like your silent Hotspring.
Hotspring just switched to a 65 watt pump instead of a 58 watt pump? How does that affect the efficiency or hasn’t that been tested yet? Let’s also ask why they switched to a 65 watt circulation pump? The primary reason was noisy operation, which was caused by an impellar imbalance. Was the circulation pump really that quiet, as you say? I guess some people heard it if Hotspring is now using a different circulation pump.
I think everyone on this forum, except for you, would agree that the efficiency of the Sundance is pretty much on par with the Hotspring.
Most professionals would also agree that Sundance and Hotspring are the top two manufacturers of portable spas in terms of quality.
Did you lose a few sales to Sundance, and thought you could slide a negative comment in on the forum? You are way out of bounds on those two posts.
Chris H
-
Hotspring just switched to a 65 watt pump instead of a 58 watt pump? How does that affect the efficiency or hasn’t that been tested yet? Let’s also ask why they switched to a 65 watt circulation pump? The primary reason was noisy operation, which was caused by an impellar imbalance. Was the circulation pump really that quiet, as you say? I guess some people heard it if Hotspring is now using a different circulation pump.
The new pump is intended to correct a problem - we had a higher failure rate than we thought was acceptable. So, we fixed it. If you have a HotSpring spa, and you can hear the circ pump running, chances are it can be replaced under warranty. If your pump is silent, like the vast majority of them, then don't sweat it.I think everyone on this forum, except for you, would agree that the efficiency of the Sundance is pretty much on par with the Hotspring.
Most professionals would also agree that Sundance and Hotspring are the top two manufacturers of portable spas in terms of quality.
I would agree.
-
Excuse me, but what statistics are available that support the statement that HS and SD are the top 2 in quality?
-
What Chris said and stop YELLING. :o
-
jb,
If they are indeed both equal to you, go with the dealer you get the best warm fuzzies for--both tubs are excellent and I'm sure you would be very happy with either.
8)
-
When someone like SHANNON gets on and spews a lot of BS, then you have to discount their credibility completely. Especially when what they say is completely false. For the record, SD spas have bottom drains.
-
Excuse me, but what statistics are available that support the statement that HS and SD are the top 2 in quality?
Don't take that as a slam on other brands, or a claim to superiority. SD and HS are the top two sellers - and they both are known for taking care of problems. I was responding in the grand scheme/big picture sense. They both build tubs which work well, and cost less to run than many other brands on the market.
Does that mean Marquis (or whatever brand you want to insert here) is bad? Not at all. There are many brands - including many which are made in a small warehouse and sold in a small regional area - which are good quality. And you may want to point to some single part or pair of parts and say, "look at this! My tub has a much better __________ ." Fine. If that is the whole focus of your spa experience, then you have me.
This comes up from time to time in this forum: somebody wants a feature we don't offer. So for them, HS couldn't possibly be 'the best,' or for that matter, how could we consider it to be even 'a good spa?' But again, back off and take a worldwide view - HS and SD sell more tubs in more countries than any other.
But when it comes to overall satisfaction, reputation for customer service, and general functional quality, you would have a hard time finding industry professionals who would tell you that HS and SD are NOT among the highest quality tubs available.
-
- we had a higher failure rate than we thought was acceptable. So, we fixed it.
Hey Chas, you always use the term "WE" when you refer to Watkins products. Aren't you a dealer? When you say WE it sounds like you are on the design team or something. You have been assimulated.
No offense intended, just an observation. :)
-
Hey Chas, you always use the term "WE" when you refer to Watkins products. Aren't you a dealer? When you say WE it sounds like you are on the design team or something. You have been assimulated.
No offense intended, just an observation. :)
Yeah, bad habit. I'll work on it.
Resistance is futile.
-
Resistance is futile.
Do you ever feel disassociated? Confused? Alone?
We can help. Come join the latest in group therapy. Come join the Watkins Borg Cube. You will never be alone again. You will always be a part of "the team".
If you act quickly, we have an opening in the coveted 6 of 9 position. This is always popular because you get to stand next to the 7 of 9 unit. 8)
-
OK, I'll rephrase my question. What are the factors in spa construction/components, etc. that are pertinent to quality? (I left out the currently meaningless word "engineering").
Do Sundance and HotSpring use better manufacturing methodology, the best available plastics, resins etc., the best available components, what?
Or is it an assumption that because these two outsell any of the others that they must be the top two in quality?
What I'm really after here is, how do you spa pros define quality?
-
There ain't nothin' about a bottom drain that a good ol' wet vac can't take care of......very minor feature when compared to other features.....(salesdvl, stuart--go easy on me even though it's not my first time! :D)
-
OK, I'll rephrase my question.
Do Sundance and HotSpring use better manufacturing methodology, the best available plastics, resins etc., the best available components, what?
What I'm really after here is, how do you spa pros define quality?
You ask a very good set of questions there.
I would choose the insulation as one example. If I have time I may offer some others later. Many companies finish the spa - and then spray the cabinet full of foam insulation. TP or FF is not the issue, the foam itself is. Simplistic obviously, but hey: I'm trying to make HS look good here ;)
By comaprison: HS starts with the bare shell sitting upside down and drilled by diamond hole saws. Certain areas are masked off, and then the shell goes into a huge machine which uses computer-controlled spray arms in a controlled temperature and humidity enviornment to put a thin layer of 30# foam on the back of the shell. This is to rigidize the shell, and doing it by hand is out because of the precision with which it needs to be applied, as well as the conditions under which it is best to apply it.
The shell then is allowed to cool, and gets stripped of the masking, and the plumbing is added. HS builds the plumbing in sections, and those sections get pressure tested individually. Once they are brought together and applied to the tub, along with all of the other plumbing which is created right on the shell, the whole system is pressure tested using digital guages which can record pressure variations so slight that the people running that QA section can tell if the working area got cooler or warmer during the test period. But I digress: back to the foam.
After all the plumbing is in place and tested, the shell goes into the cabinet area where a cabinet is fitted to the shell. It is built in sections, brought to the shell and then assembled/ finished on the shell (not built in another room and then dropped onto the shell) so it can be custom tailored to a certain degree. Once the cab is in place, it's off to the foam area. Note: any one of the plant sections I have mentioned above is larger than the entire facitily of most other spa makers....
The spa has one layer on the back of the shell already, and now the foaming process begins. First, a layer of 10 or 20# foam is applied to the plumbing, while it is pinned against the tub with stainless steel rods. This steadies the plumbing against stretching and moving when the pumps are turned on and off. It also quiets the water noise that will come from the plumging. And it insulates, of course - but the more dense foams are not as good at the insulation as the less dense foams, so they are only put exactly where they are needed and the rest of the cab is filled with less dense foam. The steel rods are withdrawn and other probes are set in place.
The foam that fills the rest of the cab is a combination of 1 and 2# foam. The reason for this is that HS used to use just one type of foam, but as it tends to grow so rapidly it was inevitable that air voids would be trapped. They don't hurt the energy efficiency if they are small enough, but they can turn into noise amplifiers and do other things HS doesn't want.
So they spray the 2# on two sides of an area, and as that foam is expanding, they put a quick shot of 1# in the middle. The 1# shoots to life almost as fast as it comes out of the gun, as the 2# comes to meet it more slowly. The result is that the 2# expands and crushes the 1# in places which formerly would have been air voids. So the integrity of the insulation design is maintained, they don't get noise-amplifying pockets, and the whole tub ends up stronger.
The bottom of the spa is then leveled off a bit - the better the foam application is, the less work has to be done on this step. I have stood and watched several different brands of spas be made: HS has very little waste foam sitting on the floor after a tub is finished while other brands have a person going around with a shovel and a dumpster picking up literally tons of waste foam which is trimmed off of the bottom of the spas with saws or other machines as they are produced.
Finally, a thin layer of 60# density foam is poured out on the botton to create a hard shell which seals the bottom. This hard shell obviously conforms to the exact shape of the bottom of the foam due to the way it is applied as a liquid. This avoids more air gaps, creates a hard shell similar to a fiberglass pan, but one which can be removed if needed for access down the road. Also, by doing it this way, each and every spa has its own custom- made hard shell which also closes any gaps between the pressure-treated lumber and the foam insulation.
The result: a quiet tub with good energy retention, and fewer leaks caused by plumbing movement. Also, a tub with such monolithic structural integrity that we dealers can flip it onto a dolly (any of the four sides, or bottom) and roll it around without damage.
-
Thanks, Chas. This is the kind of response that prospective spa buyers should appreciate. Please continue with some other quality factors. Hopefully some other brand proponents will do the same on this forum.
I believe the typical American or Canadian consumer is interested in buying quality as well as comfort and utility in their optional (if not all) purchases. This seems to be true in the automobile market , e.g. the outstanding success the Japanese have had in North America by producing really high performance and quality vehicles at relatively good prices at all levels. This in my opinion is what VALUE is all about.
-
Wow Chas,
My dealer never described it to me like that. It's not described like that on the HS website The quality control sounds awesome. I sure am glad I bought a Vista!
Jonathan
-
The Vista looks like a nice model. Does the "Bella Fontana" have an on/off switch or valve?
-
Yes, you can regulate the flow of the fountain. At full flow the three streams land at the same point.
-
I would want to turn it off completely when the tub is full of people (usually voluptuous females). Can this be done?
-
yes. The bella fontana on the Vista is actually right where someone would sit. So you can turn it off completely. (It's kinda fun to have a victum sit there tho and then blast the fountain on, but then I'm easily amused. ;D )
-
Actually, I enjoy the warm water from the fountain flowing over my neck and shoulders!
-
The fountains are fun to play with. The kids do the limbo thing under it. Tonyp is right, it feels good when it hits your shoulders and keeps you warm on nice cold night.
The light that glows within the arcing water stream is kinda neat as well, almost hypnotic. Sorta like a liquid fiber optic.
Jonathan
-
You folks are right: the Bella Fontana can be turned on and off as wanted. But there's more to it than meets the eye:
First off, it uses "Laminar Flow" technology. Simply put, this means that the water is gently guided into a column in such a way that it stays the same size and shape as it flows out of the nozzles, is less prone to being blown around by the breeze, has a thin stream of air down the center which makes the light look much more spectacular, and it hits the water surface of the spa more gently.
Secondly, there is a very simple plumbing trick that acts as a pressure regulator so that you get the same activity out of the fountain when the pump runs on high speed or low speed. Running the jet pump on low speed with the fountain on is my favorite way to enjoy the spa when I'm looking to simply relax. The jet action is mellow - yet the fountain runs at full output. Hot!
This feature appears on the Envoy and the Vista. It is the reason I have a Vista in my yard instead of the Grandee I usually get.
(http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Showroom_Hot_Tub/jpgs/pht_h2o_hot_tub_bella1.jpg)
-
The only problem I have with it is when you turn it off and then back on, it shoots almost all the way across the tub unless you turn the pumps off and then on.
-
The only problem I have with it is when you turn it off and then back on, it shoots almost all the way across the tub unless you turn the pumps off and then on.
My daughter considers that to be a "feature" and has learned exactly how to do it every time. :D
This usually only happens if the diverter valve is in the center position - or at least on our floor models and my spa at home that's the only time it happens...
-
We usually have the diverters in the 6 o'clock position to power to all the jets, so that must be it. My dealer said that it happened to him but he couldn't recreate it when I was there.
-
We usually have the diverters in the 6 o'clock position to power to all the jets, so that must be it. My dealer said that it happened to him but he couldn't recreate it when I was there.
Yup. I just went out and had some fun with my Vista: Put the #2 Diverter in the 6 or 12 O'clock position, run the #2 pump on high speed, and then go turn the BellaFontanna off and back on slowly. It shot clear out the other side of the tub. Moving the diverter restored it to normal operation.