Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Jordy on November 05, 2004, 11:47:58 pm
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Hi Everybody,
I have two questions I would like to throw out there for discussion:
1.) How many dealers clearly post their prices in the showroom?
2.) Do Consumers Expect prices to be clearly marked in the showroom? What % of dealers do this?
I ask these questions because I think it is the exception rather than the rule in this industry that dealers clearly post their prices. I believe it is one of the poor business practices that creates mistrust and skepticism in the minds of consumers. What do you think? Would this be helpful? Would you be more prone to deal with a company that upfront and clear about their pricing by displaying it?
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My opinion:
How many customers walk through your door actually know what some of the features on a spa are example: ozone, hydrotherapy, Full foam insolation, and cost of ownership? Unlike the car industry most people have know Idea what features and advantages in a spa purchase are. Also true in most manufactures models may come in a variety of diffent price ranges by having one model. You also have to consider a cover remover, Delivery some may need crane and some may be 200 miles away from the location you are not just driving around back to pick it up like your local Home Depot.
So for what reason would there be to put the price on the spa when you or as conumers do not have aclue on why your spa would cost more then the Sams club version.
From what I have seen the only companies that put there prices directly on their spas are companies that will give you the big drop in price. Meaning they may put $15,000 on the unit but when presented to you the customer they tell you for you today and today only this spa runs $3000.00 so it looks like you are saving alot of money today. You may purchase this spa just for the mark down not having any Idea what it is worth. The thing is, is that $3000.00 is what you would have paid for it today and tom. and any other day of the year.
For what it is worth
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Of the 8 or so dealers that I visited while shopping recently, all but one of them had prices clearly posted - 5 of them posted the "MSPR" thousands above an educated selling price 2 of them posted "actual" selling prices. The one that had no price postings spewed of the prices when asked.. "that goes for about $12,000 but I can make you a deal today..."
I expect prices to be clearly marked, marked as a reasonable selling price - in my experience that was about 25%. I agree completely with your belief in how this is "poor business practices that creates mistrust and skepticism". With regard to a product that includes service I only deal with companies that are upfront and clear about their pricing.
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Yep, very few had prices on them in my experience. As far as someone being uninformed, then the dealer should list all those "extras" or "features" along with the price to show why the price is what it is.
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Out of the 8 to 10 dealers I visited to look for my tub, only two had the prices listed of the tub and the place where I bought it also had the price of the options (lifter, ...) on the tub.
I felt better knowing how much it would cost up front, knowing that the dealer couldn't pull the price out of thin air. It was easy to figure out what I could afford and what options I wanted.
Now with that said the dealer did some "negotiating" still. To be honest, she was busy at the time with a buying customer (I was just there to look) and we didn't discuss anything about her pricing policy. I called her about the tub and told her I was concerned about the price when I added up all the options I wanted. She informed me that the tub manufacturer was running a $300 off discount and she gives the options a 2 for 1 discount.
I didn't pressure her and I would like to think that everyone who walks into the store gets the 2 for 1 discount; as far as the factory discount, she informed me it was until the end of the month that I purchased it in. There was no haggling on my part and I do believe if I discussed pricing with her on the first visit the same deal would have been mentioned.
I do feel good about my purchase. Yes, I wondered about if I got a good price, but I feel I got a price not based on a sales person's whim at the time and I believe that if others bought at the time I did they would have gotten the same price!
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I am a car salesman(not a typist) and i can tell you diplaying prices is VERY IMPORTANT.!! Customers need info and they shop and read while sales people are tied up. unless you give them info ,they will walk.Put the lowest selling price for that tub,list all accessories and their cost ,arriving at the price for that particular tub. the more detail the better.successful (car) salespeople and explain and disclose as much as possible to show knowledge and to gain trust.If you are honest and sincere to your prospect,they will LIKE you. People tend to buy from people they like nuff said,bobhol
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I have been a dealer for many years. The way it evolved for our store is that many years ago we priced all of the little items but did not price the big ticket items ( spas, swimming pools, pool tables etc ) because there were so many different ways it gould be packaged. As it is now we have decided to create the packages and put prices on the signs as to what those packages would be.
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In our showroom all spas have the selling prices cleary displayed including the prices of all options available for each model. The prices for delivery, cover lifts, watercare kits, GFI's are also listed, allowing the consumer to see exactly what each item costs.
We also have a copy of the manufactores warranty posted for each series. Instead of just telling the consumer, we find it more informative to actually show them the details of the warranty.
Displaying MSRP then the selling price in my opion is poor way of trying to build up the value of a spa.
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This has always been an interesting question.
My take on it is that there should be signage on all spas detailing the specific spa with included options including a monthly cost for financing.
The large majority of consumers walking into a spa dealer have never owned a spa nor have they been to many dealers in most cases. How many people come in expecting spas to be in the $4000 - $5000 range? From my experience...LOTS!
Sales people are there to help educate the consumer and signs with pricing can't do that. Take this scenario...
Mr. Smith walks into your store. There's no price on your spa and his first question is "So how much is THIS one?" We all deal with that right? If I say the spa is $8000 Mr. Smith, is that a good price? Are you getting good value?
Mr. Smith has no clue. With pricing on the spa, you run the risk of someone walking in, seeing an $8000 price tag and suggesting that they saw a similar looking spa (cause they all look the same to Joe consumer), and walking out feeling they can get a better deal at XYZ Spas down the road. It's exactly what the big box stores rely on.
Every once in a while someone will come in and ask why there's no pricing on the spas. My answer is this...
Very few people are aware of the differences that make up pricing on spas. Most have no idea what to look for and are unfamiliar with this purchase in general. Let's keep in mind that this isn't a car and we can't compare it to the dealer 3 blocks away selling the same thing.
There are multiple reasons why there are huge price differences within one line, never mind taking the 6 dealers in your area into consideration as well. I want to spend the time showing you this product and at the end of it, you will be able to determine if there's good value or not. One price means nothing until the consumer is educated and understands what it is they're looking at.
Chaser1 made some very valid points and I agree 100%.
Empolgation wrote: "I expect prices to be clearly marked, marked as a reasonable selling price". This is my point in a nut shell. 99% of consumers are unable to determine what reasonable is in this purchase!
Vinny mentioned something in his post worth exploring. So if this sales person was tied up for some time and the pricing on their sign was (in your opinion) too high, chances are good that you would assume that these spas were poor value. It's the risk taken with pricing spas in the showroom. Initially, it's left up to the unknowing consumer to determine this. Now granted, not all consumers are totally unaware of the cost of a quality spa, but I'm generalizing for the most part to make a point.
I also agree with bobhol that when selling a car, it's VERY IMPORTANT to list the price clearly! ;)
The people walking into your store deserve to be asked all the important questions, fitted into a spa in their budget with the features important to them, explained the real benefit of owning a spa and the recommended maintenance. They need to understand the after sale service you provide, free water testing, they need to know about your company, they need to be shown why you carry the brand you do and the real features and benefits of your wonderful brand. At the end of all of this, they will have a clear understanding on whether or not they are getting good value at your store. It's them and only them that can determine this! There's far too many aspects to take into account before this can clearly be determined.
blah, blah, blah...I'll shut up now! ;D
Steve
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Most of the places we shopped had prices marked.
I'd rather have a real price posted than an inflated one.
The whole percieved discount thing bugs me.
Just tell me what you want for your merchandise, then I'll decide if I want to pay or not.
Having to negotiate prices is something I'd rather not do.
Brewman
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Most of the places we shopped had prices marked.
I'd rather have a real price posted than an inflated one.
The whole percieved discount thing bugs me.
Just tell me what you want for your merchandise, then I'll decide if I want to pay or not.
Having to negotiate prices is something I'd rather not do.
Brewman
I agree wholeheartedly, and wish that more people had this train of thought. Whenever I am shopping around for something (mid - large size purchases) I always ask what their "best" price is, making it clear that I dislike negotiating and will not ask for a better price. At that point if I feel it is worth the money, (or I really really want it) then I will purchase it.
FWIW, all of the tubs on my floor have "real" prices on them. I feel that we could sell more tubs by using inflated prices and discounting them, but I also feel better being up front and honest with my customers.
Caution Car Analogy To Follow!
The worst thing I have ever experienced is with the local Nissan dealership in town. They would not give me a straight answer on the price of their (used) cars. They insisted that I make the first offer. Not only that, but I would have to sit down and basically have a contract written up before they would consider my offer, and offer anything in return. It was bad enough putting up with the (quite common) nonsense lines like "we respect the fact that it is your money," and "no reasonable offers refused"
Joe
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some car salesman are locked in the 80'sand really struggle to be straight forward and honest . thoseare the sales guys who don't get repeat business or referalls.All good sales people share common traitsand thats what makes them successful. I struggle all the time to kill the image people have of a car salesman. My repeat customers are my indication I am treating them correctly.Spa sales people should get that same indication by the amount of referral businessthey generate.Always treat the customer with respectand honestyand more often than not you will be rewardedwith the sale. It is all about trust. bobhol
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Just when we start to wonder where Steve is he comes out from lurking in the shadows and BAM throws a whammy on us!
Thank you for the thought and effort you put forth in you post! I couldn't agree more with your statements.
I actually look forward to the day that consumer education is to a point in our industry that people will have enough information when they walk in the door that we can shoot them our best price and they understand the value. This will also weed out some of the ethics issues that surface from time to time with lies like "ours is just as good as theirs at half the price"! It's way to easy for many companies to BS a customer with a story and not support it with quality.
This really is a two fold dilemma, as a customer I want the tools to control what kind of a deal that I get and as a salesman I want full credit for what my product is before a price judgment is made.
What it boils down to is trust.... I believe it was Ralph Waldo Emerson that said, "One man can only trust another man when he understands how much mistrust he's allowed and still be cordial.”
IMO, the best thing for both customer and salesman is an agreement to help educate the customer regardless of price.
Maybe what would work best is to separate out all of the spas according to a budget range with a big sign over each area stating something like this – “ALL SPAS IN THIS SECTION RANGE BETWEEN $3500 AND $5500!
It would also be helpful if every customer agreed to where a name tag with their budget spelled out so we know what to show them….! ;)
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Of the 5 places I shopped only 1 had posted prices. The salesman then gives me a price much lower than the posted price and says that he can do better when I'm ready to buy from him. Needless to say I went elsewhere. Evrybody wants you to go to them last. My attitude is give me your best price and make me want to return.
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I'd rather have a real price posted than an inflated one.
The whole percieved discount thing bugs me.
Just tell me what you want for your merchandise, then I'll decide if I want to pay or not.
Having to negotiate prices is something I'd rather not do.
Brewman
As a consumer I agree. Unfortunately we don't live in such a cut & dry world. When we first put signs on spas & pool tables the first thing customers would want to know is " What kind of a deal are you going to give ME" They didnt care what the sign said. We also have a competitor that plays the inflacted sign "package" price game and "throws in" or gives a "free upgrade" so customers now expect it.
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We don't post prices on our spas. The reason being is that we want to find out exactly WHY a customer is looking into purchasing a spa, and we also want to show them all of the models we offer that will fit their wants and needs. Plus we also try to utilize the conversationalist sales approach as well. All of our sales staff (at both locations) work with the same set prices for the package deals on our spas. We don't play the negotiating game. We are also more expensive then most of our competitors and if we had our spas marked with prices many potential spa customers would get sticker shock and leave before we'd have the opportunity to show them what not only our products but also our company have to offer.
Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 & caldera Dealer
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some car salesman are locked in the 80'sand really struggle to be straight forward and honest . thoseare the sales guys who don't get repeat business or referalls.All good sales people share common traitsand thats what makes them successful. I struggle all the time to kill the image people have of a car salesman. My repeat customers are my indication I am treating them correctly.Spa sales people should get that same indication by the amount of referral businessthey generate.Always treat the customer with respectand honestyand more often than not you will be rewardedwith the sale. It is all about trust. bobhol
Nicely put! One of my favourite customers is a car salesman (woman actually) and based on the sheer number of MY customers she has sold cars to, tells me that she is being honest with them.
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Most of the places we shopped had prices marked.
I'd rather have a real price posted than an inflated one.
The whole percieved discount thing bugs me.
I agree, don't tell me that the price is $10,000 but if you buy today I will sell it to you for $6000. I'm not that stupid!
Just tell me what you want for your merchandise, then I'll decide if I want to pay or not.
Having to negotiate prices is something I'd rather not do.
Here's where we disagree. How about like I said before, just tell me what you want to spend for a tub and I'll decide what spa fits your budget! I don't like to be negotiated by a customer either, just like you I prefer to have it my way, selling and buying is a 2 way street....
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Stuart,
I disagree with you on this - just give the consumer the price and let the salesperson sell what they're selling. If a customer sees a price and walks out - then that customer really wasn't interested. As I said in the previous post, I called the sale person back because of the price. I was interested.
And as far as the price I want to spend - yes, show me the tub(s) that are in my price range. It is a waste of the sales person's time and mine as well to show me the $10,000 tub when I got $5,000 to spend.
Here's 2 scenario's:
I am a customer and walk in and take an hour of YOUR time, come back after hours and wet test every tub, make you open up the equipment area, waste another couple of hour of YOUR time and FINALLY ask how much is that tub because it's great. You tell me, it's $10,000 (all $10K tubs will be great) and I tell you I'll give you $5,000 and will pay cash so you don't get hit with the 3% VISA charge.
OR
I am a customer and walk in and YOU ask me what I'm looking for in a tub and what price range I'm looking at. I tell you I don't know what I want (or I want a non-lounger for the semi educated) and I have $5,000 to spend. You now show me what's in my price range and sell the differences in the tub compared to another brand of similar pricing. You may also show me a tub a little more expensive to show me the difference in a higher priced unit. You're not showing me that $10,000 tub because I can't afford it. You may still spend hours with me but you're closer to selling me a tub than the other scenario.
Selling isn't a 2 way street when the item you're selling isn't a necessity and there's competition around. Around here I was able to go to at least 10 dealers, I was in control of my money. I walked in, talked a while, looked at different models and IF I was interested I asked how much and is that the best price - if too much I'm gone. The argument of you bought a P.O.S. doesn't fly to us consumers (OK Cal Spa is a POS, I'll give you that) as far as most people (non hot tub professionals) are concerned because we all bought the best. Almost every brand of hot tub has their fans.
We all, through this forum and Doc's, have the opportunity to learn things and become somewhat educated. I'm sure you sell more to the under educated hot tub buyer than the educated. (I'm talking educated in spas not formal education). I doubt many people spend hours researching a hot tub, I think most people buy it as they do an appliance (I bet you thought I was going to say auto).
I know that Hot Springs is a good company but if you compare spas on pumps and jets alone I would think that HS would lose out all the time. This is where SALESMAN/SALESWOMEN SHIP comes to play - what makes HS the "best" and this is where you "sell" the product.
Just my 2 cents as a hot tub consumer.
Vinny
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These spa salesmen sound like Car salesmen.Never met a carsales person i would ever TRUSTTTTTT,and I mean all car salespeople.Jt ;)
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Vinny;
I understand your perspective. I would never spend 1 hour before discussing prices. I would never wet test before discussing prices. That would be, as you stated, a waste of everyones time.
At the end of your last point, I think you did reinforce Stuarts arguments. If the HS dealer had prices posted (1-2K higher than budget) the consumer may walk out before the salesperson is given the opportunity to explain the differences.
HTM
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These spa salesmen sound like Car salesmen.Never met a carsales person i would ever TRUSTTTTTT,and I mean all car salespeople.Jt ;)
Very encouraging now that I'm in the market for a car!! (Used at that) :)
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As a consumer I agree. Unfortunately we don't live in such a cut & dry world. When we first put signs on spas & pool tables the first thing customers would want to know is " What kind of a deal are you going to give ME" They didnt care what the sign said. We also have a competitor that plays the inflacted sign "package" price game and "throws in" or gives a "free upgrade" so customers now expect it.
Salesdvl you said a mouthful (as usual) lol.
Our store works with Coleman and secures dates for factory rebate sales. The rebate comes right off the top of the lowest price we negotiate. We are allowed only so many, and we use them for things like anniversary sales and shows.
The problem is this..These rebate sales are for a short time frame, 2 weeks max. During a show or anniversary sale you advertise more and come in contact with huge amounts of people. We pitch and bid out far more tubs then we sell during these events. Just the law of averages and as we all know buying a spa is not usually an impulse buy.
So two months later when the consumer is ready to buy, they come in with this old bid with the rebate price and deadline clearly marked. It's hard to add that $300.00 or $400.00 factory rebate back into the price at that point. The consumer is not happy, we've already bid it to get it. Our hands are tied, we can't call Coleman and change the rules. Some say they'll keep shopping. Others will want us to call them when the next sale comes around. Some will understand the rules and purchase at the higher price. I always feel bad for them and think it starts our relationship out with issues that need not be there.
I could personally live without ever doing another rebate sale. However a deadline can be a good closing tool as well.
As far as posting prices, the only time we do is at a show. It's on one particular entry level spa and it's our show special, no negotiating. I feel consumers like to know where our tub prices start. It's up to us to do the rest
Spahappy :D
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Although we don't have signs next to our spas in the showroom, we do have a binder that we show prospects that clearly describes the price and exactly what is included in the price. We will often make a photocopy of this for people who are very interested. We find that consumers are very pleased with this approach and we feel it really helps helps diiferentiate our approach to the process vs. our competitors.
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If you have six or more hottubs in your show room, you can show the prices of two entry tubs. And/or have a very special price on a tub that you want to sell quickly.
For the high end tubs you might hide the price on a well prepared paper that you get out in seconds when asked. This way you have both: Prospect sees prices and if there is a chance you can explain the specialities about your middle or high end tubs. The low price tubs usualy don't need to be explained a lot!?!
At the time now, I have price tags on 4 of the 7 hottubs
in my store and I will learn to be more open about prices because of this forum.
Dealer since two years Fritz (Switzerland)
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I will have to agree with Chaser and Steve. Each spa has several different options that effects the price. We make sure there are always a few cheepies on the floor. If the customer does not want to find out why the price is what it is then they are generally "Price Shoppers". And thats where the cheepie spas come in. Any one comming in to find an outstanding product, with the features they want will usually listen to your pitch before asking price.
my $.02
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When I first started looking, I thought tubs were $5,000 to $6,000 for the most part. I thought I would get a fairly nice tub and that was my budget. I had to adjust my budget.
I have spent a lot of time, in different dealers hearing how great their spa is without talking price. The first time I heard about an "expensive" tub was at a D1 dealer (2nd dealer I actually went to) who informed me at the end of the visit that the tubs he was showing me (Californian and Nautilus) were $8,000. I couldn't believe it! Although I didn't wet test a single tub, I did "waste" a lot of time at different dealers to see what I liked and to get ball park figures.
Since then, I saw lots of tubs and dealers got prices from $6,400 to $8,000 and picked out a tub that I thought was a good buy. I don't think I bought "cheap", I bought "value". Without getting into what's the best I personally can't see what that $8,000 D1 has over my $6,700 tub besides longer warranty or fancier electronics or for that matter the Coleman 480 for $6,400. As I stated elsewhere, as a consumer I don't know what's crap and I don't believe I bought a crap hot tub in Artesian - I know you professionals may disagree, but I'm not a hot tub professional.
Maybe, I'm a different type of consumer but I don't need the cheapest item, just the best perceived value. A person who walks into ANY store sees a price and walks out is probably looking for the cheapest they can get - I would predict that "customer" is going to be the biggest PITA in the future. As I stated, when I added up the options on my tub it came out to $7,800 and I called the dealer because I was interested. I'm glad I did!
I picked HS because they do sell A LOT of tubs and I believe this because of their quality and brand recognition. I did see the 2004 models and even HS had to tweak their image, they added waterfalls and fountains to compete with the others.
But lets face it if someone does see a HS tub at 1-2K more at the dealer down the street from you, maybe they will buy your Coleman tub because it's within their budget! ;D
I think Jordy's way works also, as long as the prices are tangible. Don't take out a calculator and figure out what it's going to cost me with discounts. Also, don't quote me a price on the tub alone. I looked at the HS Vanguard and the sales person said he can sell me the tub for (get calculator out) $6,995. It turned out it was just the tub and cover, adding up the rest it came to $7,400.
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The prices that we share with customers are the prices, we don't do the "SuperDiscountTodayOnly" kind of sales technique. We figure that it's only fair to consumers that they be able to see what the price is everyday for our models. I think that the Dealers who don't at least do this for consumers can come up with a long list of reasons and excuses for not having clearly posted prices for consumers. What I have seen in my experience in this industry is that this allows dealers to deal unfairly with consumers. Consumers need clearly posted pricing for as many reasons as dealers can come up with to explain why they don't post clear pricing. At the end of the day, I believe that consumers will choose to do more business with the dealers who are clear and upfront about their pricing policies.
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Empolgation wrote: "I expect prices to be clearly marked, marked as a reasonable selling price". This is my point in a nut shell. 99% of consumers are unable to determine what reasonable is in this purchase!
Correct, because 99% of spa consumers experience hidden prices, inflated MSPR prices, inflated posted prices,, 1000s of dollars difference in price for the exact spa... Why are consumers unable to determine reasonable price? Who is at an advantage when consumers are in the dark about reasonable price? How many of you are able to determine a reasonable price for a toilet? how often have you had to negotiate for a reasonable toilet price?
It is the responsiblity of the dealers to be integrous and to create an industry that has 99% of consumers able to determine reasonable price before getting an earful of pitch
I actually look forward to the day that consumer education is to a point in our industry that people will have enough information when they walk in the door that we can shoot them our best price and they understand the value. This will also weed out some of the ethics issues that surface from time to time with lies like "ours is just as good as theirs at half the price"! It's way to easy for many companies to BS a customer with a story and not support it with quality.
I'm confident that you do look forward to that day stuart but as for the majority of dealers I've experienced they dread that day as they would never be able to sucker the uneducated consumer with the $13000 MSPR price wand and prey upon the uneducated..
As a consumer I agree. Unfortunately we don't live in such a cut & dry world. When we first put signs on spas & pool tables the first thing customers would want to know is " What kind of a deal are you going to give ME" They didnt care what the sign said.
This is the result of an industry of deceit. The reason even mildly educated consumers want to know "what kind of deal they are going to get" is because they have come to understand that, as an industry, quoted prices are oftentimes grossly inflated to either score closer to the MSPR price or to present a perceived "deal" or for the chance to sell at a higher price or to "allow" for the "inevitable" negotiation to make the consumer think he got the deal. How many other retail industries have price negotiation? When's the last time you bargained with your grocer for the price of a gallon of milk? or for your new tires?
Three cheers for those of you that do clearly post "real" prices - may you make many profitable sales and procreate profusely!
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Jordy,
I was not saying that you do what I said - just the opposite. But I have been to dealers where they open the book and then proceed to figure out the discount - many have done that.
It sounds like to me that you have a book and tell the customer this is the cost and this is what the options will cost.
Most dealers that I've been to open a book and get a calculator, add figures do discounts and put blurbs in as this normally costs $xxx and your getting it at a greatly reduced price.
I personally think it's great that a dealer has concrete prices and I do understand that there are times when a dealer actually runs legitimate sales.
The dealer I bought from: had all the tub prices listed on the tub and had all the option prices listed on the tub. On the first visit I didn't get to talk to her about pricing as she was writing up an order and I was just looking at the time. If she opened up a book and showed me the same I would have been OK with that also. The "sale" she had was a factory sponsored rebate - I didn't know my cost until I actually talked to her. I didn't "get a price and run screaming from there" because of sticker shock although the price originally was pricey.
Jordy, I think that to sell with integrity is the best sell you can have - if you lose a sale solely on price then so be it. People will walk in and think that tubs are $5,000 - I did and there are people that will plunk down $10,000 without researching anything.
I have said this before, as a consumer on this board reading the "info" provided by some of you professionals, I almost didn't buy a tub. I had the wrong info on the Jacuzzi brand, reading some of you bash the brands, look at the brand I sell because it's so much better because and on and on.
TRY DOING THIS IN REAL LIFE.
The Sundance dealer bashes the HS and why would you buy the Beachcomber...; The HS dealer bashes all the tubs - had him call me an idiot and told me what kind of crap I was buying (although he never heard of Artesian before); the D1 salesperson insisting on UV bulbs are the greatest ozone and that with their $120 Vision (vs $20 N2) cartridge I won't need dichlor; the Beachcomber/LA Spas/ Sunrise dealer telling me how great Sunrise tubs are and that Beachcomber sells used tubs as new, I could go on.
My intention as a consumer with these posts is to show that selling with integrity is really the right way to sell - If I walked into your dealership and you opened a book and showed me the actual selling prices (again I believe you would) and you sell me on your tub, I may have bought from you after weighing my choices assuming I was looking at a comparable or better tub at a comparable price.
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Hi Vinny,
I just wanted to respond to be clear that we do have a price sheet on each model spa, the features included, the financing options, and how long the prices are in effect till- so that the customer has a clear understanding of what they are considering and what the cost will be. I really don't like it when I hear and read comments by dealers about how important it is for them not to clearly mark prices because of such and such...It does nothing whatsoever to benefit the consumer and everything to benefit the dealer when prices are not clearly marked, no matter what excuse or reason a salesperson may come up with to justify it.
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I just wanted to respond to be clear that we do have a price sheet on each model spa, the features included, the financing options, and how long the prices are in effect till- so that the customer has a clear understanding of what they are considering and what the cost will be. I really don't like it when I hear and read comments by dealers about how important it is for them not to clearly mark prices because of such and such...It does nothing whatsoever to benefit the consumer and everything to benefit the dealer when prices are not clearly marked, no matter what excuse or reason a salesperson may come up with to justify it.
Jordy, i applaud your methods... you set a great example. Thank you for being a part of this forum community.
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I agree!
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Wow... see what I mean about an "interesting question"? ;D Consider me out of the closet...uhhh shadows stuart! ;)
There seems to be a suggestion that if prices aren't marked on the spa, that it means that something is being hidden or the quoted price leaves room for negotiation? I'm not sure why? ??? What's the difference of the sign price, pricing in a binder, or the spoken price? I could price $2000.00 high in my store binder right?
Let's keep it real everyone...This suggestion of massive gauging and inflated pricing may apply to a very small percentage of dealers. The reality is that these same dealers don't last. I don't care where the price is given as long as it's accurate and gives the consumers as much value as possible while sustaining appropriate margins to maintain business. If the perceived value sucks, regardless of where or when the pricing comes into it, the consumer’s walks and you make ZERO! Way to go Mr. Dealer! Lost another one.
empolgation wrote: Correct, because 99% of spa consumers experience hidden prices, inflated MSPR prices, inflated posted prices,, 1000s of dollars difference in price for the exact spa... Why are consumers unable to determine reasonable price? Who is at an advantage when consumers are in the dark about reasonable price? How many of you are able to determine a reasonable price for a toilet? how often have you had to negotiate for a reasonable toilet price?
It is the responsibility of the dealers to be integrous and to create an industry that has 99% of consumers able to determine reasonable price before getting an earful of pitch
Three cheers for those of you that do clearly post "real" prices - may you make many profitable sales and procreate profusely!
I 100% respectfully disagree. Though I do believe this industry needs some serious cleaning of house, the consumer must take the initiative to understand this purchase and be aware of the pitfalls of some dishonest dealers just as I would need to do if purchasing a toilet. How can we possibly educate them without communication or "pitch" as you mention? This isn't magic and there needs to be an open line of communication. We all can't take the heat for these dealers that prey on the unsuspecting. Again, they don't last long anyways. The consumer needs to determine this and unfortunately, some miss the boat. It’s what Polar Spas relies on. Get 80% of your purchase back in 3 years… sound like good value? A $20,000 spa for $3000 after rebates and discounts? WOW. Hope they have that clearly marked on their signs! ;D
As for the 3 cheers...Who's to say if the signage is real empolgation? What if you walk into a spa store and ask "how much is that spa?" Do they get 3 cheers if the price quoted verbally is accurate and is as low as they can sell it for? Symantec’s here people and it makes no difference where the price appears. 4 cheers for those of you being ethical and educating consumers with pricing that reflects good value no matter how it's given to your potential customers! PERIOD!
Steve
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As for the 3 cheers...Who's to say if the signage is real empolgation? What if you walk into a spa store and ask "how much is that spa?" Do they get 3 cheers if the price quoted verbally is accurate and is as low as they can sell it for? Symantec’s here people and it makes no difference where the price appears. 4 cheers for those of you being ethical and educating consumers with pricing that reflects good value no matter how it's given to your potential customers! PERIOD!
Yes Steve they would get 3 cheers for their "price quoted verbally [that] is accurate and is as low as they can sell it for" absolutely. I'll even add another cheer ... 5 cheers to those "being ethical and educating consumers with pricing that reflects good value no matter how it's given to your potential customers!" Ultimately that is what I am saying and in that respect we are agreeing... But who is to say if the pricing reflects good value?
The main difference between a posted price and a verbal price is that everyone looking at the posted price see's the same price, a verbal price can be a different number depending upon how the salesman reads the customer. We are a "see it in writing" society and in general a written price is more trustworthy than a spoken only price. I also believe that in general a verbal only price more so implies "room for negotiation" and elicits a "feel the customer out number". A "hidden" price can never benefit the consumer.
As for "Who's to say if the signage is real", ultimately it can only be the dealer posting the sign as he is the only one who knows his cost - that why it's the responsibility of the dealer to be integrous.
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Vinny and empolgation,
I have supported you both in many posts and answered questions when I could however; I take great offense at you both alluding to the fact that I'm deceitful and sneaky in my sales methods. I've stated many times that I have done this for 1/3 of my life and I take it very serious.
As I said, I understand you desire to control the situation by having the lowest set price posted when you walk into the store. That might work well with those people that have done a great bit of shopping and know not only what they are looking for but also what it should cost. I will not post my prices for that 1% of the people that are in the same situation that your are.
It's easy for you guys to tell me how to run my business, as you don't have your entire life savings and many years of sweat and blood into making it work.
If you think that I go about this blindly and without constant study and research your nuts! I constantly hire market professionals to help direct me and I study the latest trends in buying habits almost daily. I can’t tell you the last time I listened to a song on the radio, I usually have some sort of business development or training CD playing.
If you feel that you would rather buy from the Cal Spa dealer down the street that "clearly posts" his prices simply because that makes you more comfortable and that you would not want to buy from my store no matter how many industry awards and customer service awards we've won, no matter how good our reputation is or how knowledgeable or helpful the staff is simply because I didn't "post" my prices, go for it.
I’m sorry for your lack of open-mindedness and cynical outlook on the world but just because I'm not posting the price doesn't mean I'm going to screw you over nor does it mean that I'm not going to give you an incredible price.
I really doubt anyone would walk into a store and pay the price posted without attempting to negotiate.
BTW, over 400 people this year alone have been happy and satisfied with the price we gave them and how they got it!
I have said many times that owning one or even two spas does not make you an expert but I do believe that living, breathing and working the industry everyday of your life, fully submerging every waking hour learning how your can be one of the best at it does!
Don’t take me wrong, you guys give some good advice however lets critique your occupation and industry for a while and let me tell you how you should do it and suggest that your being deceptive and then lets see it that tics you off!
I really need to take a break for awhile….
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It's why I don't come around here much stuart. It seems our intension of wanting to help often comes under the microscope of others who feel they have all the answers.
Until everyone here fully understands what it's like to be an owner/operator of large spa company where there are 15 more just like you in a 200 mile radius, I suggest you stick to your own line of profession and let the good people like stuart, continue to succeed on the knowledge and wisdom he has gathered over the years.
Please keep in mind that rarely is there one way to skin a cat and just because it might not be the way you would do it, doesn't make it wrong. We're talking about opinions here right? I don't see any proven research that shows one option more valid than another. Until your house and everything you own relies on the day to day business decisions you make, it's awful tough to tell someone how it should or shouldn't be done. For those of you who don't know, stuart is a very successful, intelligent and respected business person who we all could learn from. Let's not keep pushing away the quality people that come here to assist others. The trend of late seems to be just that and it doesn't have the community feel it once did. Maybe you need to post more Lori! ;D
I doubt it would be much of a forum without the likes of stuart and others like him here. R E S P E C T people...he's earned it.
See why I don't post anymore! ;D
Steve
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Stuart,
I NEVER said you were deceitful in your sales tactics but some are. I truly believe that some salespeople eye up the customer based on "how they look" and "what they drive". My comments were based on written prices are just that - written; not conjured up in somebody's mind during a whim.
Does that mean you all are deceitful - NO. Unfortunately, just like the stereotypical person named Vinny, you get a bad rap. Look at my comment about the brand bashing, you can't deny it happens. Except for maybe (please kneel) Hot Springs and Sundance (OK get up) ALL other tubs get bashed. Am I cynical, YES I AM! Do you see why?
I have to be honest with you - I do feel there's a bit of snobbery when talking about hot tubs. Maybe because a lot of people have sold the same brand for too long to see a different perspective. As I've said before if a tub is truly that bad, please lead us away from it but not everyone wants or can afford a HS, Sundance or Marquis.
I don't know your business as you do, hey I don't even officially own a tub yet but I deal with sales people all week long. I've been bribed, I've heard total lies out of them (even my own sales person), industries use sex appeal to influence customers (show me a fat man selling pharmaceuticals vs the beautiful blonde) (I'm sure the tub industry doesn't use 3x fat guys in speedos to sell tubs) and I talk to my sales people and see the $$ in their eyes (hey I got a salesman who won't even show up even though our customer has the $$$$$ in their hands). Now with that said I also know sales people who are great - they treat the customer correctly and sell their product.
I have done quite a number of major purchases in the last 5 years - a house, 2 new cars, siding on the house, a furnace and now eventually a hot tub. The best deals I got in my opinion were 1 car, the siding and the furnace (maybe the tub I don't know). I went through a lot of dealers and contractors for all the purchases (except for the house). I didn't necessarily pay the least for my best deals, I got what I believe are best values.
Stuart I was not bashing you and calling you deceitful. I was trying to explain my view based on my tub shopping experience and what had happened to me.
You said to analyze my industry well over the years I have. I repair medical equipment and some service techs make commissions based on the parts they "use" during a T & M repair - do you see a problem with that? I do. My solution is to cut that commission practice out.
Every profession has people that make the honest ones pay for the dishonest ones actions.
I've said enough on this - maybe too much!
Vinny
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There is definitely some misunderstanding here.
Stuart I certainly do NOT believe you are deceitful nor have I intentionally alluded to your sales methods. Sincere apologies for making you feel that way. You have my utmost respect - it is for those like yourself I find this particular forum worthwhile.
I don't believe anyone here is telling anyone how to run their business. The original post of this thread asked what consumers expect and what they think about regarding a company being upfront and clear about their pricing. I responded with my expectations and thoughts and presented my experience and spoke to no one's methods in particular.
Like Steve, I too "believe [the spa] industry needs some serious cleaning of house". All I am saying is that in my educated opinion, my experience as a consumer, albeit limited by comparison to many here, has supported that the majority of hot tub salespersons are not forthright with their pricing. I know that not to be true of all. An integrous dealer will give a customer a "fair" price upon the very first price representation whether it be posted or verbal (I cheer equally for both methods); in my experience that was only 20% of the dealers. It is my opinion that a posted price is more integrous and trustworthy than a verbal one by nature as it is unbiased with regard to the specific customer but that certainly does not mean nor imply that those that don't post are deceitful. An unposted price gives the salesperson the "advantage to control the situation". Negotiation expectation exists because of the norm of the industry representation not because of the consumer.
Dealers on this forum represent a minute portion of dealers, in number, that readers will encounter; they are very helpful and greatly appreciated - by the simple fact that they stick around to answer questions and take time to educate shoppers owners and dealers alike is evidence that they are caring and genuine. I am extremely thankful for all of your help, input and education. As far as I'm concerned you guys are the crusaders of cleaning the house.
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The integrity of an individual dealer does not completely rest on whether he posts his prices or not, however, it does not breed consumer confidence in the hot tub shopping experience. I also believe that a solid, credible dealer will have many other ways to show value and build trust and confidence with consumers.
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I was away most of the weekend- it was way too nice outside to be on my PC.
Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with prices not being posted. I don't particularly like the practice, that just my opinion. When I run into this, I sometimes ask myself what are they afraid of?
And for the record, I did purchase my spa from a dealer who marks their prices on their spas. I paid the price on the price tag without trying to negotiate a further discount. I have no idea if the dealer would have moved on price or not, I suspect not, but I don't know for sure.
And since it was over 18 months ago when I purchased, I've long since forgot about it.
Brewman
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WOW!!! What an intense exchange in this thread. I read this forum on a daily basis and i got to tell you this has gotten way to personal and defensive. All you guys are professionals in your field and anyone walking into your stores will probably feel comfortable with your selling methods. Like selling cars(my comfort level),how you relate to your customer and how they relate to you is paramount. If you can give them the info in a professional manner without displaying prices then that works for you.There is no magic formula for selling ,its how the customer percieves they are being treated.Myself ,Ibought my tub not bacause it was the "best" but rather it was one of three that would satisfy me AND the dealer made me comfortable and confident in their product(Hydropool,steve).There is the magic combination. Did i negotiate,yes.was my dealer happy with my offer ,yes . great for both of us!! bobhol
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Let me just jump back on topic for a question;D.
For those dealers that post their prices on the spas, do you also post the prices for the options such as, cover lifter, steps, GFI, delivery & set up?
or... is everything included in the posted price?
The dealers that don't post the prices, are the options included in your prices, or seperated?
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It's why I don't come around here much stuart. It seems our intension of wanting to help often comes under the microscope of others who feel they have all the answers.
:'( And I miss you!!!
Maybe you need to post more Lori! ;D
Maybe I should! I usually avoid threads like this one because they just seem to go nowhere, except into bashing and name calling. I just skimmed to see if this time things had taken a lighter turn. Boy, was I wrong. I happened to catch my name, so I thought I would do as you suggest.
I agree with you! I am in the Automotive Refinish business. People think you can paint a car for pennies, well, have I got news for them. But that is a different thread! LOL! I can say that we have price sheets sent by the vendors, but that is never the bottom line price. Call and gripe about my competitors selling lower than I can buy it for, a lot of them will give me a better price. Understand, I am NOT saying this is the same in the hot tub industry, only mine.
See why I don't post anymore! ;D
Steve
How was that, my dear? :-*
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I usually avoid threads like this one because they just seem to go nowhere, except into bashing and name calling.
Me too, until it became more of an official duty. ;) Now I just make sure Steve isn't in here calling somebody a boogerhead. (I wonder if the forum software will left that one by.)
My only comment on the pricing issue is, "I've grown use to the way it is and can learn to live with it and forums like this help to an extent. My only real complaint about pricing issue if dealers who post phony regular prices and every day is a sale price.
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Can't we all just get along and get back to bashing Master Spas? ;) ;) ;D
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I'm glad you said it, windsurfdog, and not me...the part about getting along, that is!
I don't want to bash any manufacturer! A spa should make you happy!!!
Right spahappy? (Tee Hee--couldn't help myself)
Hmmm...mine is calling me!!
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You know what I hate about Master Spas?
Well they ...
They have ...
OK, I don't hate Master Spas!
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:'( And I miss you!!!
Maybe I should! I usually avoid threads like this one because they just seem to go nowhere, except into bashing and name calling. I just skimmed to see if this time things had taken a lighter turn. Boy, was I wrong. I happened to catch my name, so I thought I would do as you suggest.
I agree with you! I am in the Automotive Refinish business. People think you can paint a car for pennies, well, have I got news for them. But that is a different thread! LOL! I can say that we have price sheets sent by the vendors, but that is never the bottom line price. Call and gripe about my competitors selling lower than I can buy it for, a lot of them will give me a better price. Understand, I am NOT saying this is the same in the hot tub industry, only mine.
How was that, my dear? :-*
Eloquent as usual Lori! Always a pleasure. :) :-* Is this lady the BEST er what?
Now I just make sure Steve isn't in here calling somebody a boogerhead. (I wonder if the forum software will left that one by.)
My only comment on the pricing issue is, "I've grown use to the way it is and can learn to live with it and forums like this help to an extent. My only real complaint about pricing issue if dealers who post phony regular prices and every day is a sale price.
;D Boogerhead? I only used that once when referring to you but I didn't think you noticed? ??? ;)
With hot tubs being such a competitive industry, everyone is trying to show value best they can. Unfortunately, a great deal of it is "perceived value" and that's why I feel the consumer must take the necessary time to research and understand what to expect. Consumers are smarter now and understand that if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
These same slimy dealers get a reputation quickly, and as I mentioned, aren't generally in it for the long term.
Signage or not, be honest. Our industry can't handle any more slime as it affects the reputable dealers that are just trying to run a decent business. I can't prove or disprove if any one way is best for everyone. What I can tell you is that I did for many years without signage for one of the largest selling hot tub dealers in Canada and we were very successful. Far from me to tell others what they should do but same for the other way around too!
Steve
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Right Lori!!
I've said this before, this board is frequented with buyers and sellers alike that are committed and loyal to the brand they either sell or bought.
Every purchase/selling experience is unique to a particular set of circumstances. I don't list prices and yet feel most of my customers still trust me (at least I hope so..) If I've ever lost someone out the door because we don't post prices I guess I didn't get to them in time.
Spahappy :D
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Well Put!
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Can't we all just get along and get back to bashing Master Spas? ;) ;) ;D
Some of us never stopped. ;)
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You know what I hate about Master Spas?
Well they ...
They have ...
OK, I don't hate Master Spas!
I can teach you Vinny. ;D
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;D Boogerhead? I only used that once when referring to you but I didn't think you noticed? ??? ;)
I always request that people call me "MR." Boogerhead, it shows more respect. ;)
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I always request that people call me "MR." Boogerhead, it shows more respect. ;)
You got it...MR.
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OK, salesdvl here it goes!
The one thing I don't like about Master Spa is that they count all the holes in their master blaster jet as individual jets.
How's that MR. Boogerhead! Did I do OK?
That's about the best I can do, I was contemplating buying one after ruling out Emerald Spas. But what do I know, I started wanting a tub 8 years ago - I wanted a Thermospa. Now look at me - I 'm on a web board for hot tubs with a hundred + posts and I still don't have a tub.
I don't know, maybe I SHOULD waste my time watching all those useless reality TV shows...
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Not bad for a beginner. We'll work on it. >:(
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Hey Vinny,
Don't forget the hp deception and the macro filter inadequacies too...... ;D
Hey salesy,
Looks like I'm getting closer to the "dark side"--if only I weren't so darned pleased with mine........ ;)
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Hey Vinny,
Don't forget the hp deception and the macro filter inadequacies too...... ;D
Hey salesy,
Looks like I'm getting closer to the "dark side"--if only I weren't so darned pleased with mine........ ;)
Don't go near the light. Stay away from the light !
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Hey Windsurfdog,
I no can do the HP deception bash - the Artesian Island tub I'm getting has 3 pumps for a total of 15HP -> 2 - 6HP and 1 - 3 HP. AND I know it ain't all continuous HP!
I think that bash comes from HP envy. You know people go see those other tubs, ask the sales person to put it on high and he/she says it is. ;D Then they go and see our tubs on Viagra and the sales people get embarrassed :-[ and need to say something negative - so I'm with you on this one!
And as far as filtration - I don't have 100% no bypass filtration, so who an I to speak. But hey I got programmable ozone in mine (did you hear the oohs and aahs). With my 24 hour circ pump, I can set my ozone to run from 0 - 24 hours. Watch how much envy people will have with that!
We ain't got no Thermspas!!!
Vinny
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If you have six or more hottubs in your show room, you can show the prices of two entry tubs. And/or have a very special price on a tub that you want to sell quickly.
For the high end tubs you might hide the price on a well prepared paper that you get out in seconds when asked. This way you have both: Prospect sees prices and if there is a chance you can explain the specialities about your middle or high end tubs. The low price tubs usualy don't need to be explained a lot!?!
Pulling things back into the thread topic, I thought Fritz from Switzerland demonstrated that you can have it both ways and could stand as a good strategy if executed properly. I say this for two reasons.
1) Having two lines of spas; the class 'A' spas and an economy line helps define value in a customers eyes by offering a direct comparisom. The disparity between the lines should be apparent to the prospect without explanation- and their perception of this disparity would lead them to conclude that the 'A' or premium spa line is probably more expensive, without even having to ask the price.
2) Boldly posting prices on your economy line uses the very same strategy BIG boxers count on to capture prospects... Price, price, and price. At the same time, youre able to defer sticker shock or price resistance when they see $7,000.00, $8,000.00, $9,000.00, or $10,000.00 prices on your premium line, by discretely pricing spas on a POP standup or in your product brochures- this allows you to reveal the price as you discuss the value of the features and further exaggerate the disparity between the spa lines if you're not talking to a 'price' buyer.
Another thing too- I used to work in the hospitality industry at a upscale hotel. When working reservations or at the desk registering transient 'fronts' it was stressed that we always begin high and retreat to a fallback point, particularly when the hotel wasnt anticipated to be 100% full. So, when a front was price resistant we would fall back to lesser accomodations until they were sold. Empty rooms don't make money- exactly the same way a spa sitting in inventory seems to suck the profit margin out of a store.
By pricing your premium line fully loaded with accesories like we did with rooms, you can always deduct features and fall back on price without sacrificing your margin on the spa...How many other spa retailers do this?... Or do you strictly fall back on price of the spa alone?
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By pricing your premium line fully loaded with accesories like we did with rooms, you can always deduct features and fall back on price without sacrificing your margin on the spa...How many other spa retailers do this?... Or do you strictly fall back on price of the spa alone?
We were discussing this very strategy a couple of days ago. It makes sense.
Ultimately there are flaws in all pricing/signage strategies. What I feel has been lost in this is the fact that there are different peronality types that will react differently to any pricing/signage strategy.