Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: windsurfdog on November 03, 2004, 10:19:51 am
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I think most of us would agree that ozone and mineral introduction are effective secondary elements in hot tub water chemistry. By mineral introduction, I refer to N2 or mineral filters (a la MasterSpas) or any other passive system that is normally installed in the filter compartment that depends upon water circulation for dispersment of payload. By secondary elements, I believe we would also agree that ozone and mineral introduction cannot achieve effective sanitation on their own though they do contribute to lesser primary sanitizer/oxidizer levels. I also think we would agree that any tub can be effectively sanitized/oxidized without both ozone and/or minerals.
If we "agree to agree" on the above, I pose this question:
Do ozone and minerals contribute to sanitation only, both sanitation and oxidation, or oxidation only.....and to what degree for each of the two? Also, to what degree, if any, does each contribute to accelerate the depletion of free chlorine?
I ask these questions because of the many comments made in threads that allude to the oxidation properties of ozone. Most sales jargon that I have heard centers around sanitation and reduced sanitizer requirements.
Thanks in advance for taxing those vast, greatly convoluted masses of gray matter........
8)
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Ozone is an oxidizer. Mineral introduction acts as a sanitizer. Both slow the depletion of free chlorine by eliminating organics through different precesses. Where I am going to fall short here is that I no not fully understand what happens to the organics once they come into contact with the mineral system. The ozone turns it into a gas. The chlorine thurns it into a chloramine (thereby requiring oxiding at another time). Not sure about the silver though. Damn Canadian government! Still waiting for approval after 10 years on that one.
I don't think anyone will be able to answer your "..to what degree, ...." questions.
HTM
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I think most of us would agree... that... in water ....I refer to any other passive system that is normally installed that depends on water...for dispersment of payload.... I believe we would also agree that ... on their own...they do contribute to lesser primary levels.
...I pose this question:
...to what degree for each... , if any,... does each contribute to accelerate the depletion... of ... greatly convoluted masses of gray matter........
8)
With a little creative editing we have....
A born politician. ;)
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Ok first off, Ozone is an oxidizer that is up to 40 times more aggressive then chlorine at breaking down organic matter. N2, spa frog, and Vision are silver catalyst mineral purifiers. When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog). What the silver in the mineral cartridges does is they adhere to bacteria and break down the outer "walls" of the cells of the bacteria. In a nutshell and without gretting into all of the scientific jargon, silver kills approximately 99% of all known bacteria and pathogens known to man including E-Coli. And for the wiseguys out there the amount of silver in these cartridges falls within the US EPA's guidelines for acceptable levels of silver in drinking water.
We advise our D-1 customers to use a non-chlorine (MPS) spa shock when done using the spa. Depending on use and number of bathers we recommend, as does D-1, to add a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment. For all of our other spa customers (hawkeye, Caldera, Infinity, spa owners who didn't necessarily buy from us but aren't on Bromine) we recommend using the N2, and shock once a week with di-chlor, and after every use with MPS (or at the end of the day). This works for our customers and certainly is not the be all end all to spa care as there are many routines and "programs" that work well.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
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When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog).
So are you saying that it isnt effective without ozone?
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Ok first off, Ozone is an oxidizer that is up to 40 times more aggressive then chlorine at breaking down organic matter. N2, spa frog, and Vision are silver catalyst mineral purifiers. When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog). What the silver in the mineral cartridges does is they adhere to bacteria and break down the outer "walls" of the cells of the bacteria. In a nutshell and without gretting into all of the scientific jargon, silver kills approximately 99% of all known bacteria and pathogens known to man including E-Coli. And for the wiseguys out there the amount of silver in these cartridges falls within the US EPA's guidelines for acceptable levels of silver in drinking water.
We advise our D-1 customers to use a non-chlorine (MPS) spa shock when done using the spa. Depending on use and number of bathers we recommend, as does D-1, to add a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment. For all of our other spa customers (hawkeye, Caldera, Infinity, spa owners who didn't necessarily buy from us but aren't on Bromine) we recommend using the N2, and shock once a week with di-chlor, and after every use with MPS (or at the end of the day). This works for our customers and certainly is not the be all end all to spa care as there are many routines and "programs" that work well.
Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer
Jason,
Thanks for your comments. Please clarify a couple of things.
You are saying then that N2 is a primary sanitizer?.....that no other sanitizer is needed save for a once-a-week shock with dichlor? Since you are using MPS after each soak in conjunction with ozone, are you depending upon the dichlor "shock" for shocking or sanitization? How 'bout using MPS for the once-a-week shock and thereby dispensing with dichlor altogether? And how does a "a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment" work as a shock? I was under the impression that a chlorine "break point" ppm had to be reached for dichlor to operate as an oxidizer....or is this only in environments where dichlor is used as a primary sanitizer?
Thanks in advance for your reply........
8)
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I had tried using MPS before soaking and shocking with dichlor once per week, but could not keep my water clear. This was one program my dealer recommended. I went to shocking with dichlor twice per week with better results, but it seemed I was adding more dichlor than ever so I went back to a little dichlor after use and shock weekly. I have always used either a spa frog or N2 cartridge with ozone.
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With a little creative editing we have....
A born politician. ;)
Whew!!! Glad you edited and added the "creative editing" phrase.........I was about to gnaw another leg off......... :o
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;D
It's interesting how much the context can be changed by omitting words and adding...
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alrighty, after reading through my post I admit it was a lil confusing and I must clarify a few things................I'm a lil groggy after watching all of this election stuff :P
First off When Nature 2, vision and/or Spa Frog are used in conjuntion with an ozonator, depending on how much you use the spa and how many people on average use the spa, you can ALMOST eliminate the need for the use of Di-Chlor as a shock or sanitizer. Now that is not to say that these products aren't effective when used in spas that don't have an ozonator. If a spa doesn't have an ozonator you will still have to use Di-Chlor/Bromine, just not as much as you would if you were solely using dichlor/bromine.
Now......YES N2/Spa Frog/Vision can be used as a primary sanitizer. (Yes i know there are posters who will disagree with that statement, but we've been using D-1's Vision as a sanitizer for over 10 years now, and have few problems) D-1 uses Vision as an alternative to chlorine/bromine. Zodiac makes both the Vision cartridges for D-1 and the Nature 2 cartridges for watkins, sundance....etc...
MPS is a shock treatment. Shocking in a nutshell is adding a product to a spa/pool in order to oxidize waste. Now I know what you're all thinking (I have esp :o ;D ) , why do I need to add an oxidizer when I have ozone which is an oxidizer? Spas are small bodies of water, they get contaminated very easily and quickly. The shock treatment after you are done using the spa will help the spa recover faster, and also aid the water management system in sanitizing the spa. Shock is basically a "booster" shot for the spa.
D-Chlor or granular chlorine is BOTH a shock and a sanitizer. In order for chlorine to be a shock the chlorine levels have to be raised above 8 PPM for a brief period of time.
Now breakpoint chlorination.............this must be achieved when trying to rid a pool or spa of "combined Chlorine." Combined chlorine is the by-product of chlorine molecules combining with amonia molecules. These are more commonly known as chloramines. Chloramines cause the chlorine odor to occur, they are also not good sanitizing. Breakpoint chlorination is the amount of chlorine that must be added to the pool/spa in order to oxidize off the excess chloramines. When breakpoint chlorination is achieved the free avaible chlorine in the pool/spa will be equal to the Total chlorine in the pool/spa.
I know I'm over simplifying this & I can get more techical if you want, but you'll probably fall asleep before you finish reading my post. I know this b/c when we train new employees they yawn quite a bit when reading through our training manuel ;)
And what's the moral of today's class kids???? KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. When using N2/Vision/Spa frog: Shock with mps when done using the spa, add a small amount of dichlor periodically if needed, and check the pH and alkalinity once every two weeks and make the necessary adjustments. Oh and remember....less is more. the less you add to the spa, the more time you can go between draining and refilling your private backyard oasis.
Yup......opened up a can of worms on this one ;D
If I'm still unclear on some things, please tell me and I'll clarify some more.
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poolboy,
Thanks for taking the time to compose your response--your explanation is very clear and thorough.
I understand your (D1's) regimen now and the role each part plays. This helps my understanding of the role ozone and mineral filters play in my dichlor routine which, BTW, is resulting in crystal water for me.
I guess the only drawback to the Vision system is the dependancy upon the minerals as sanitizer when the minerals are nearly spent. Continued use of the same regimen w/o mineral change would certainly result in unsanitized water as opposed to a regimen that uses dichlor as the primary sanitizer. It would seem that it is much more important for one to regularly change the mineral system components in your routine opposed to a dichlor routine.
I would expect that either regimen, when properly maintained, would result in equally acceptable water.
Once again, thanks for your expertise!
8)
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Once again, thanks for your expertise!
8)
yadda yadda yadda or, for you dyslexic folks:
adday adday adday
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Right you are salesdvl. D-1's vision needs to be changed every six months, and as most of us know Nature 2 and spa frog mineral packs need to be changed every 3-4 months. We've found that after 6 months if the vision isn;t changed the water takes on a greenish tint. Shocking will temporarily remove the tint, but it will come back after a couple hours. Also it should be noted that clarifiers, pH balancers, and stain & scale treatments should NOT be used while a mineral pack/cart./stick is being used. These products should ONLY be used prior to adding the mineral cart/pack. These products will bind up the minerals in the pack/cart and turn them into a solid brick, rendering them useless. For customers using D-1's Vision pack we recommend placing the pack in a bowl of water when draining and refilling, b/c if the pack drys out after being wet it won't be as effective.
BTW salesdvl, you're hardly a newbie here, you have more posts then i do and I've been participating to this board for about a year now. You are definilty a welcome addition to this "community." This is the only board i contribute to, as the spasearch board tends to be way overloaded with highly biased dealers as well as everyones buddy from colorado. This board is very professional. That other board tends to end up being one large melee between dealers and sales reps.
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Well I was feeling good until you went and called me "professional" ;D
Seriously...thanks.
At this time I would like to quote one of Hollywoods great actresses ( and not a half bad looking flying nun ) Sally Field and say " You like me, you really like me."
(( so much for being serious )) but I do like contibuting to this board.
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poolboy,
Thanks for taking the time to compose your response--your explanation is very clear and thorough.
I understand your (D1's) regimen now and the role each part plays. This helps my understanding of the role ozone and mineral filters play in my dichlor routine which, BTW, is resulting in crystal water for me.
I guess the only drawback to the Vision system is the dependancy upon the minerals as sanitizer when the minerals are nearly spent. Continued use of the same regimen w/o mineral change would certainly result in unsanitized water as opposed to a regimen that uses dichlor as the primary sanitizer. It would seem that it is much more important for one to regularly change the mineral system components in your routine opposed to a dichlor routine.
I would expect that either regimen, when properly maintained, would result in equally acceptable water.
Once again, thanks for your expertise!
8)
Windy,
I'm confused, doesn't your Master spa use 2 EcoPure cartridges that need changing every 4 months or so?
Isn't this the same concept?
(http://masterspas.com/images/masterCrafted/filter_drawing.jpg)
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Thats a great picture Stu,
When we carried Master Spa I always had trouble when people had well water and needed to add a "filter magic" chemical to get rid of the crud in their water. Unfortunately the design of the filters ( silver ion embedded filter inside and reg filter outside ) didnt allow for taking out the middle filter as it would leave a big hole and water would not go THROUGH the filter very much ( least resistence )
sorry for the run on sentence but I was on a role.
Anyway I usually had them switch out and use the traditional filter with a reg ion purifier.
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Thats a great picture Stu,
When we carried Master Spa I always had trouble when people had well water and needed to add a "filter magic" chemical to get rid of the crud in their water. Unfortunately the design of the filters ( silver ion embedded filter inside and reg filter outside ) didnt allow for taking out the middle filter as it would leave a big hole and water would not go THROUGH the filter very much ( least resistence )
sorry for the run on sentence but I was on a role.
Anyway I usually had them switch out and use the traditional filter with a reg ion purifier.
Been there, done that, the coleman replacement filters work great.
We also had a huge problem with the top "macro filter" warping and the tabs breaking, Master finally told us just to take them out that they weren't needed. I found this ironic as that was a huge part of the sales pitch they gave us when we became a dealer.
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We had that stupid flat filter problem too. Nothing worse than giving a presentation and lifting the lid to show them this great inovation and have it floating.
Some ideas should not be approved for production.
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Windy,
I'm confused, doesn't your Master spa use 2 EcoPure cartridges that need changing every 4 months or so?
Isn't this the same concept?
(http://masterspas.com/images/masterCrafted/filter_drawing.jpg)
Yep--every 6 months--BUT, my point is the regimen being used. As I stated in my original post, there's not a tub out there that can't be sanitized with dichlor/bromine alone without the use of minerals and ozone. My point is that by utilizing a dichlor regimen--by using dichlor as my primary sanitizer, I could continue with a clean tub regardless of mineral filter age or ozone production.....do you agree?
salesdvl said:
When we carried Master Spa I always had trouble when people had well water and needed to add a "filter magic" chemical to get rid of the crud in their water. Unfortunately the design of the filters ( silver ion embedded filter inside and reg filter outside ) didnt allow for taking out the middle filter as it would leave a big hole and water would not go THROUGH the filter very much ( least resistence )
MS is now using 2 stand pipes in their filter compartment. The micro filter is positioned and then the mineral filter is added. A flat, round device is then screwed onto the stand pipe to hold the filters (I'll be glad to take and post some pics if it will help.) Though I haven't tried it (I will!), it appears the mineral filter can be removed and the micro filter can be securely held in place.
stuart said:
We also had a huge problem with the top "macro filter" warping and the tabs breaking, Master finally told us just to take them out that they weren't needed. I found this ironic as that was a huge part of the sales pitch they gave us when we became a dealer.
As you and I have discussed before, bubba stu, I just don't agree. I'm living with the same exact macro setup filter now and I am having ZERO problems with the macro filter, it's installation, it's performance. Maybe I'm reaping the benefit of some redesign.....I'll take pics of that, too. Otherwise, I just don't understand your complaints.
For all those reading this, please understand that I am but one tub owner who has only owned one tub--and only since 7/11/04.....BUT, I live with it and enjoy it every day. bubba stu and salesdvl have lived with MS as retailers and their experiences are not congruent with mine. Could it be that I am indeed reaping redesign benefits that they formerly suffered through? It's up to you to weigh each if you are considering an MS purchase.
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You are partially correct windy. You CAN sanitize your spa solely using Di-Chlor or Bromine. You can ALSO sanitize your spa with a combination of Di-Chlor & Ozone, Bromine w/ Ozone. Also you CAN use Di-Chlor w/ a mineral purifier, or Bromine w/ the Spa Frog. And you can also combine ozone with one of the latter two. And lastly you can use a mineral purifier w/ ozone and either MPS or Dichlor as a shock treatment.
Once your mineral pack expires..........you will either have to remove it or replace it, if you leave it in your water will take on a "greenish" tint.
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salesdvl said:
MS is now using 2 stand pipes in their filter compartment. The micro filter is positioned and then the mineral filter is added. A flat, round device is then screwed onto the stand pipe to hold the filters (I'll be glad to take and post some pics if it will help.) Though I haven't tried it (I will!), it appears the mineral filter can be removed and the micro filter can be securely held in place.
I understand what you are saying, I think.
So are you saying that the mineral filter that goes inside the reg filter is no longer threaded? That is how it has been in the past. And that is how my replacements are on my shelf ( I just went to look )
If the mineral ( Eco Pur) wasnt threaded then you could take it out while doing a metal removing chemical.
thanks.
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How does one determine when to change their ion cartridge? I've been told 3-4 months for the Everfresh/Nature2. Is there any sure way of knowing?
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Yes, they start to taste really bitter and are not as crunchy after 4 months.
I'M KIDDING. DO NOT EAT THEM.
Also, when in a public restroom. Do not eat the big white mint. :)
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Are the pink ones okay, then??
Brewman
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Good point. I think those are made by Pepto Bismal.
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Four months on the N2, then toss them. I suppose you could put them in a nearby public toilet, but don't. Somebody might eat them.
And the answer to the origianl question is:
Ozone reduces the organic load, so a smaller amount of chlroine will do the job.
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You are partially correct windy. You CAN sanitize your spa solely using Di-Chlor or Bromine. You can ALSO sanitize your spa with a combination of Di-Chlor & Ozone, Bromine w/ Ozone. Also you CAN use Di-Chlor w/ a mineral purifier, or Bromine w/ the Spa Frog. And you can also combine ozone with one of the latter two. And lastly you can use a mineral purifier w/ ozone and either MPS or Dichlor as a shock treatment.
poolboy,
I may not have made myself clear but you and I are saying the same exact thing.....I agree 100%.
salesdvl said:
So are you saying that the mineral filter that goes inside the reg filter is no longer threaded?
Yep....the mineral filters are no longer threaded.....the only threads are on top of the stand pipe.
And where do you get off just saying "thanks" to my post.....I've come to expect wise cracks, insults and humorous, titillating discourse.....BOY have you insulted me now....... ;D
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Now breakpoint chlorination.............this must be achieved when trying to rid a pool or spa of "combined Chlorine." Combined chlorine is the by-product of chlorine molecules combining with amonia molecules. These are more commonly known as chloramines. Chloramines cause the chlorine odor to occur, they are also not good sanitizing. Breakpoint chlorination is the amount of chlorine that must be added to the pool/spa in order to oxidize off the excess chloramines. When breakpoint chlorination is achieved the free avaible chlorine in the pool/spa will be equal to the Total chlorine in the pool/spa.
Then that would mean Dichlor after every us and MPS shock once a week???
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You CAN sanitize your spa solely using Di-Chlor or Bromine. You can ALSO sanitize your spa with a combination of Di-Chlor & Ozone, Bromine w/ Ozone. Also you CAN use Di-Chlor w/ a mineral purifier, or Bromine w/ the Spa Frog. And you can also combine ozone with one of the latter two. And lastly you can use a mineral purifier w/ ozone and either MPS or Dichlor as a shock treatment.
When chlorine is introduced into spa water containing ammonia(bather waste), the hypochlorous acid (free chlorine) quickly begins to oxidize the ammonia to form a combined chlorine compound known as monochloramine (only one chlorine molecule is attached to the nitrogen or ammonia). The reaction process does not stop here. More chlorine is required to continue the oxidation of the nitrogen or ammonia. If no more chlorine was in the spa or added, the spa water would have a large amount of combined chlorine as monochloramine rather than the desired free chlorine.
As more chlorine is added, the monochloramine is now oxidized by the additional chlorine to form dichloramine (two chlorine molecules attached to the nitrogen -- Reaction #2). Again, the reaction is still not yet complete. More chlorine is still required. As more free chlorine is added, it attacks or oxidizes the dichloramine to form trichloramine (Reaction #3). Finally, as even more free chlorine is added, the trichloramine is broken down or oxidized to simple nitrogen and chloride salt (Reaction #4), thus completing breakpoint chlorination.
Theoretically, any chlorine added after this point can only exist as free chlorine, as long as no new contamination of the spa occurs, such as bather waste. Of course, this is all but impossible. The spa is subject to so many sources of contamination -- such as water passing through a dirty filter -- that it simply will not stay free of contaminants for very long. Keep in mind that the moment organic contaminants such as ammonia(bather waste) begin to re-enter the spa, chloramines will begin to reform.
permonosulfate effectively control the formation of chloramines, which cause odors, reduce disinfection and cause eye and skin irritation( have you ever been to a mid-chain hotel with a spa and had these problems, I have). So once a week shock with permonosulfate will help start over in the Superchlorination process by killing off the chloramines.
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you can also shock with MPS after every use to oxidize the chloramines.
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salesdvl said:
And where do you get off just saying "thanks" to my post.....I've come to expect wise cracks, insults and humorous, titillating discourse.....BOY have you insulted me now....... ;D
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And I have succeeded yet again. Even in silence. 8)