Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin on October 31, 2004, 09:18:56 am
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Tiger River Caspian at $6395.
Hot Springs Sovereign at $6300.
Jacuzzi 345 at $5700.
Down East Windsor SE $6100.
All prices exclude tax. Include cover, lifter, LED light, steps, chemical starter kit and local delivery.
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Of the choices that you gave me the my choices would go HS Sovereign, then the TR Caspian then aways down then.....................Jacuzzi 345 then ................................Down east
Of the choices that you gave me the sovereign is one of the smartest seating designs of the industry the lounger doesn't take up one entire side of the spa there is a seat at the end that someone could sit in. The Caspian use to be one of my biggest selling models at the time it was called the Siberian. I No longer sell HS or TR but sell Marquis and D-1.
I have always thought that Jacuzzi and Down East as far as value for dollar never matched up with HS TR Marquis or Dimension One they in my opinion are a few of the top rated brands of our industry.
Opened up a big can a worms
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My choice is the Tiger River Caspian. We have ours since July 2004 and love it. The jets are very powerful, seating is great, foot jets are also great. We live in Michigan just got my electric bill was about $15 higher than last yr. Has proven to me to be very good insulation, since we have had 30 degree weather already. Your getting a good price, we paid $7100 for tax, chemicals and delivery. Good Luck shopping for a spa, no matter which one you deceide on your going to enjoy it. Lynnette :) :)
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Tubbinsoon,
As I went shopping, I did see th HS, Jacuzzi and Down East. The prices you got for the HS and DE are great prices. I didn't get a price on the Jacuzzi. I saw a price of $6800 advertised for the HS and got a price of $6400 for the DE. The local HS dealer IS A JERK and wouldn't talk to me about the TR line - It pi$$ed me off! I wish I lived near Chas!
As for opening up a can of worms - in my opinion, the HS is a little tub, I think it's about 33" deep and has a lounger (not something I was looking for). The Jacuzzi looks like a nice tub and if it's like it's cousin (Sweetwater Bahia) it's a lot cheaper ($6400 here) and it's a nice tub (Bahia that is), The DE is the largest tub (I don't know about TR) in the group I believe and is nice but lacks a circ pump - not a bad thing but all the others have one. The one thing that Chas pointed out to me is that TR has a great warranty (same as HS) and uses a lot of the same components.
It comes down to what you want in a tub and what is most comfortable for you. The J-345 and Windsor don't have a lounger - the Sovereign does. Before making the choice just remember that your going to live with it for many years so don't make the choice enirely based on price.
Good Luck!
Vinny
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My first thought is that Down East shouldn't even be compared with the other much higher quality finalists.
I would also go : Sovereign, Caspian, Jacuzzi..............................................................................................................then maybe the Down East. ( I used to carry Down East, and currently carry HS & TR )
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Vinny,
When did TR stop using the circ. Pump From as far back as I can remember it has used the same exact system under the cabinet as the HS. In lighten me on them switching to a non circ pump system Please.
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HS is getting good response for a one pump(?) low jet count. Why is this? TR and DE not as well. Hmmm, then there is the 345 with few comments. Local Jacuzzi dealer thinks they are greatest since sliced bread. I wasn't sure if the 345 price was in the running with other areas.
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I believe he was referring to the Down East not having a circ pump.
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Yes, I was talking about the Down East - can't get the circ pump in the SE.
Tubbinsoon - sometimes on this forum there is a bias towards the BIG TWO (I did do a rant a few weeks back) - HS and Sundance - although not everyone is biased towards them. There are plenty of people who own all the brands that you mentioned and are happy with them. YES they may be great tubs - well built and great warranty - but you pay a lot for what you get compared to other manufacturers - this is my opinion.
I went to the TR website and the Capsian is their 2nd largest tub- it has 2 motors and is 36" tall. It looks like a nice tub - if it has the same warranty as the HS, for the price it may be a better buy than the HS - this is my opinion again.
The Jacuzzi is supposed to be great - I had mentioned a while back that they didn't use "Jacuzzi" pumps anymore based on what I read and Jordy "straightened me out" on the facts. They do use Jacuzzi pumps. I believe they carry the same warranty as Sundance - take a look and see.
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You've found 4 very nice tubs from local dealers all apparently within your budget--simply let the wet tests be your guide. I honestly do not see how you could go wrong with any of them. But I bet you there's one that feels better than the rest.....to you.....go for it and good luck......and make sure to play the other deals against the one you choose.....the dealer may sweeten the deal knowing how close you are with the others.....and if not, what have you lost?
8)
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Hi TubbinSoon,
You've chosen a very eclectic group of tubs for us to compare!!! A wide range of sizes, styles (lounger vs. no louger), and features. I think you will get better opinions and suggestions (from me anyways) if you could answer the following questions:
1. What size of tub are you looking for? -How many people do you want it to sit? Do you have children/ how many/ how old/ Do you have space restrictions?
2. Do you prefer a lounger or not?
If you answer these couple of questions, I might be able to help you with some answers that you would find helpful. I can offer a unique perspective as I used to sell HotSpring/Tiger River and now own a Jacuzzi Dealership. I also don't think that Down-East Spas belongs in the same group with the others, from what I can tell, it's just not built up to the same manufacturing standards(ISO9001) and it definitely doesn't have the same track record the other models have earned. That's not to say it isn't a good tub, I just don't think it belongs in the same group. Look forward to your response.
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Windsor SE ... but then again, what do I know. Im just another SATISFIED Downeast owner .. shrugs ... It all boils down to what YOU think is the best bang for YOUR buck, not everyone elses opinion. Sure, theres some weight to put to it, but remember YOU have to live with the tub, not anyone else.
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I think you have gotten some great advice in the posts above.
Enjoy your wet test!!
;)
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I also don't think that Down-East Spas belongs in the same group with the others, from what I can tell, it's just not built up to the same manufacturing standards(ISO9001) and it definitely doesn't have the same track record the other models have earned. That's not to say it isn't a good tub, I just don't think it belongs in the same group. Look forward to your response.
TubbinSoon,
Absolutely the Windsor belongs in the same group......your group is comprised of tubs to which you are attracted, that have a local dealer and are within your budget. As spaguyohio and I attest as completely satisfied Down East/Master Spas owners, chances are no greater or no worse for you to enjoy an issue-free experience with the DE when compared to the others, period. Now it is up to you to weigh the advice of satisfied owners who only deal with one tub compared to the advice of unsatisfied retailers whose opinions are based upon past experiences with DE and/or their desires to support the brand they sell. Both have their appeal.......This leads us straight back to my previous post in this thread......let your wet test be your guide.....let the therapy you like best weigh the most in your decision.......Good luck!
8)
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The lounger was listed because it was the Sovereign and it seemed to be an attractive price. I have not been particularly interested in lounger styles. Mainly because I floated out of the first and second ones I tried. Wonder how much of that is due to the swim suit pockets filling with air? Or perhaps some really powerful pumps and jets that could be throttled back? However great the Sovereign is or was, is it on its last legs?, I don't think I want a single pump design. Read several comments on not enough pump for all jets at same time on this model. Alas, it was not wet and I could not fairly reject it or accept it. Pricing was good I thought.
I was also interested in the J345 but was and still am unconvinced or the pricing. Not getting much feedback on that model. It was probably the only one with ABS base and sales comment was "yeah it could fill up with leaking water for quite and a while and you would not know it". Is that an advantage or disadvantage? I am sure the comment was meant as a negative.
The ISO comments don't bother me much. If you are using a cheap component or dufus process I am not sure what it buys me for you to keep all of the records per the entire process. I know it is mentioned for quality purposes but can you really point to any specific issue of how ISO standards make a particular product better? Or better why your tub is better than their tub? Is it not really an expensive sales tool? In some ways you might add BBB membership to dubious useful quality processes. There are literally thousands of complaints on businesses that are members, check out Home Depot, but they "resolve" the issues. What does that really mean. You business owners can maybe tell us?
Another interesting development is that the more dealers/owners/salespeople I talk to, the more I see that in my area there is sort of a merry go round of I used to work for them, I sold for them, they used to have that brand and now we got it. Interesting for the HS guy to tell me he used to sell for REC whse. Wow. He was trying to justify his experience levels?
In my area HS has bounced around and factory rep I talked to said there is always someone wanting to sell his product. Well, the last dealer says he dumped them. Question for you dealers is when does the honeymoon end? Over service issues? That's what they say here. Or is it amount of floor stock, pricing?
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Hotspring did a complete reorganization of their dealers in New Jersey last year because that state had more complaints per unit sold than any other state. They removed at least 3 dealers. One of the dealers had 6 stores. If you have 6 stores you have a ton of sales. They were not servicing the product adequately. So Hotspring said “goodbye.” Hotspring doesn’t care about sales, as much as, you think.
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In my area HS has bounced around and factory rep I talked to said there is always someone wanting to sell his product. Well, the last dealer says he dumped them.
You can't tell from this what happended as the dealer is typically not going to admit he got dumped. I know a dealer (not HS) that got dumped a short time back and he came here saying he "dropped" a certain line and was looking at choices A & B to replace it and wanted feedback. I found it comical but understood no one wants to say they got "fired" but instead will say they "quit". I imagine the 6-store dealer Chris is referring to tells everyone he "Dropped" Hot Springs and not the other way around.
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Yep, right on the nose....the dealer that used to have HS says he dropped them over service issues. Depending on which side of the story you hear, the product was requiring too much maintenance or they could not provide the service.
Could be some truth to both sides? If they did not need so much service, there would not be so many complaints?
Speaking of complaint resolution, does one brand claim fewer problems statistically? Or just huff and puff from sales types? Is there a brand with fewer issues? Lack of local service may not be such an issue if there was a strong product that did not need hand holding after installation?
Having been in service at industrial level for over 30 years for same company (am I a dinosaur), it is interesting to see how the various product departments try to control their number of complaints. Most of them use a computer based system of tracking, we call them cases, and yet they can get closed out without issues being really resolved. Looks like if too many cases are opened in a time period, they need to make some go away even if they get reopened later. The daily accounting is duly reported. I have seen some true warranty issues denied because there were too many cases opened on the product department. Manipulating the system? Sure. I don't suggest the tub industry local businesses do this as I suspect they are not that big. But a the plants, who knows who has better products? They won't tell you how many "cases" they have. Only years later do you get the story, Oh, there were glue problems etc.
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Interesting post.
My local NJ HS dealer told me about 2 stores getting dumped by HS and how they are adding 4 more people for service. That's great that people are being added but as you said TubbinSoon if they don't require service why add so many people. Talking to the sales person you would think these guys are "The Maytag Repairman" when comparing them to all the rest. I viewed it as that they do break and that they do need service - if not you don't need to add service people. I've been working on medical equipment for 20 years now and you don't need a lot of service people when things don't break!
I agree with the others - if you can wet test, do so and pick out the best that you like. BTW, I believe on Docs site - rhtubs - there are some people that have the J-345.
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That's great that people are being added but as you said TubbinSoon if they don't require service why add so many people. Talking to the sales person you would think these guys are "The Maytag Repairman" when comparing them to all the rest. I viewed it as that they do break and that they do need service - if not you don't need to add service people.
It would be great to think that spas are made indestructable but ALL spas require some service and Hot Springs certainly are one of the more reliable spas. One thing to consider is dealers do not make big bucks off warranty service and MAY be where some of the issue comes in here. These dealers who do not provide adequate warranty service are problably much quicker at getting out to spas where the spa is out of warranty.
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That's great that people are being added but as you said TubbinSoon if they don't require service why add so many people. Talking to the sales person you would think these guys are "The Maytag Repairman" when comparing them to all the rest. I viewed it as that they do break and that they do need service - if not you don't need to add service people.
As your business grows so does your service requirements. It would be great to think that spas are made indestructable but ALL spas require some service and Hot Springs certainly are one of the more reliable spas. One thing to consider is dealers do not make big bucks off warranty service and this MAY be where some of the issue comes in this case. These dealers who do not provide adequate warranty service are problably much quicker at getting out to spas where the spa is out of warranty. Customer Service is about providing what the customer needs to be satisfied (within reason of course) but SOME dealers turn into bean counters in this area and don't want to go the extra mile to provide what is necessary to accomplish this. Unfortunately for them they don't see the long term value is satisfying their customers to the point that it builds loyalty but look at the short term cost.
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I don't know about the hot tub repair business but in the medical industry the manufacturer is responsible for the warranty 95% of the time, there are some companies who don't have a service force. It seems in the hot tub business that the manufacturer is only there to help the selling dealer or repair center and has little burden for the actual repair besides providing parts and a contracted amount for the repair.
I will agree that as business grows so does your service needs but if you need to add people to service tubs that you didn't sell and your not going to make a lot on warranty service - there's got to be a reason. When a sales person tries to impress a client on "look at our service force" either the dealer has excellent customer service (a possibility) or the item being sold needs a lot of repairs (another possibility).
As a service person I get paid to work or not; as little as the dealer makes on warranty service he's still making more money having the service person out than paying them to sit and wait for a call! I would imagine that unless service is an issue most people will go back to their original dealer for repairs.
I'm sure that there are requirements for the dealers to continue selling and supporting the tubs (any brand) but the truth is ALL tubs need repairs eventually, some more than others. We, the consumers, don't have an inside track to this information, you hot tub professionals do (if you want info on medical equipment - just ask! ;D) and when we ask it gets frustrating not to get a direct "this is good because ..." or "stay away from this because ...", we get people's opinions based on ?!
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Most warranties do not allow the dealer to make any money on service calls. If anything break even or loss are better possibilities.
There are exceptions.