Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: ebirrane on October 15, 2004, 10:14:30 am
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Please do not ban Mr. Happy from this forum. Please, also, do not ignore him and hope he will go away.
Why?? Because:
- Many people who have researched spas, and who sell spas truly believe that James Arjuna makes an inferior product for an inflated price.
- Many people who have research spas and who sell spas believe that James Arjuna uses deceptive marketing practices to keep existing customers and to influence new customers.
- Many people believe "Mr. Happy" is either James Arjuna or an associate coming in to provide this deceptive marketing, since he himself is banned from this and other forums.
Obviously Mr. Happy wants James Arjuna and/or his products to get attention from people on this board. Which is *great*.
Every time Mr. Happy posts, on-topic or not, follow that post with the links to bad stories and complaints about those spas.
Continue to link to the court judgements and debt.
Without Mr. Happy, I would *never* had read about these things, and I'm betting others will not, either. We should *thank* Mr. Happy for continuing to keep these issues at the forefront of the bulletin board because new lurkers and shoppers come in here every day.
So, I propose, each time Mr. Happy posts, someone or some group of us, reply not in hatred, but with the links and facts needed to truly inform others of the problems with that particular spa refurbisher.
As such, Mr. Happy himself will get the *real* word out about James and his products. Remember, deceptionists and charlatans prefer private, protected messaging and shun the light of day.
Don't allow angry and hateful posts jade those who have not yet done the research to understand where such frustration comes from.
-Ed
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But I'm already sick of the political references, this is one place I can get away from that.
Oh, well, 18 more days.
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Right on, Ed.
I'd like a legitimate Haven spa owner to participate in this forum. I've got to believe that someone out there who owns a Haven and can discuss their spa objectively. Mr. Happy doesn't cut it, since he's just Arjuna or one of his loyal followers posing as a Haven customer.
Brewman
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There is a few problem with the logic being used here IMO. Jim and/or his followers posting here will bring more people to his website of deceit regardless of whether its good press or bad. While his history will hurt him and we can alert people to his disgruntled customers not all will conclude he’s a nutcase. If 98 out of 100 visitors conclude he's a charlatan that still means 2 more people going to his site and leaving interested because they've tasted the Kool-Aid. Some people simply tend to believe in conspiracy theories and will believe he’s being silenced because he has the “truth”. He would be better off banned and not discussed, as it would be one less link to his little shop of horrors.
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Hi All,
My two cents here. I don't blame the senior members of this forum for being sick of all this. However, it is by reading "Larry's" posts and responses that I learned of what had gone on. It is from reading the good and bad experiences that I have been able to compile my shortlist to choose a spa from (all long time reputable manufacturers). I am sure though that Hottubman, Steve, Spatec etc are sick and tired of this dance after so long. If My Happy/Larry/Jim etc would just stick to spa related topics and justify what he/they say that would be fine. However, when the posts get silly and waste bandwidth space talking about politics and elections I think that it does this forum a diservice.
My two cents...
Zoo
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Zoo,
Your points are well made but we've been down this road on this site and on the poolandspa.com site. Jim/Larry/HotTubHank/Mr.Happy/WaterWeasel or whatever name they're using cannot stick to spa talk because there are always varying opinions and to Jim you are stupid and unworthy if you do not agree with his "facts" so in the end it morphs into a huge mess. Once I've seen a movie I have little interest in watching it again cause I know how it ends. This can ONLY turn to chaos if Jim is involved as he is simply a social degenerate who wouldn't recognize the truth even if a judge dictated it to him.
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The very first site I went to when I started gathering info for a possible hot tub purchase was "The Spa Specialist" site. I don't know what criteria I entered in Google to have that one appear near the top. I haven't been able to replicate it since. I thought then, this is interesting, he seems to know a lot about these things. I didn't stop there, however. I found my way here, to Doc's site, "the phorum", Êand a few others. There I found posts relating to the "specialist"/JimA/Larry/etc. I then found my way to the links dealing with people's dissatisfaction with his product or their purchase/service experience. There were (what I found anyway) maybe three or four highly documented, highly negative reviews. In particular there was an email exchange between a customer and "the specialist" that made me want to look for my spa elsewhere. I don't really know what the answer is here. We can get into all kinds of "what is truth?" philosophical debates. Even if a "satisfied Haven owner" posts here, I doubt most will believe it to be legit. There's seemingly a grayer area here with Cal Spa's. The majority belief seems to be one could do much better, but if I'm not mistaken, I've seen a few posts from people who are pleased with their purchase. Have I been duped by a troll with muliple identities? Or are these real people genuinly happy with their purchase? At the same time, banning someone who stays on topic, (which he hasn't been lately) bothers me a bit. I don't think we can protect all people from what many here feel are deceptive and unethical business practices. Maybe there should be a FAQ section here that deals with this subject, especially if he is PMing members here. In the end, I decided to trust the concensus here -wet tested- and ended up with a HotSpring Vista. So far, I'm thrilled with my purchase. Ê:)
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WTG Warky :) I too was/am impressed visually with the Hot-Springs Vista. As I own a 2003 Caldera,I imagine I won't be wet-testing again till the year 2010.
As far as Con-Arjuna,I'm in the group that feels it's best to inform the public about his business,and his general personality traits. I feel the webmaster/sysop should let Mr.Happy dribble his batch of kool-aid.......as long as it's done PROFESSIONALLY,and without adding links to his masters website of deception.
Debates are fine,and serve a constructive purpose for the consumer to judge. Con_Arjuna has abused that privledge repeatedly,along with using false accounts in the past(habours trust/mistrust). I'm a firm believer in living with the choices/decisions one makes,so in that respect,Con_Arjuna is living with his actions. To read his life history,it tells me he has had a tough time in his life with people in a position of power over him.....and people who are superior to him. I doubt he can even objectively see that.
I'm all for the best in things,and a big promoter of technology.
Anyways,I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech,and as long as it isn't abused,freedom of speech is a positive for all. Con_Arjunas site is edited,and dissorts the TRUTH. He can run his board any way he chooses,more power to him. Guess what I'm saying is,he wants to play on both sides of the street,but serves his watered down koolaid on his side of the street,hoping someone will fall prey to the poison he adds to his vat. Till he learns to act like a professional,and treat all his brothers with respect,he will never garnish the respect that 99.9% of the professionals have EARNED.
Lastly,Mr.Happy.....if you are a true salesman,you will go to Iraq and push your masters spa there. I dare ya!
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But I'm already sick of the political references, this is one place I can get away from that.
Oh, well, 18 more days.
Fightin' liberals is a 24/7/365 job. The world is a dangerous place and liberals are just wrong and can't be trusted. World peace and freedom we enjoy today is in peril. The war on terrorism needs to be handled by the U.S.M.C. not some world court. God Bless the American Soldier! God Bless America!........
Making attacks on fellow American's over spas is just plain wrong! :(
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Fightin' liberals is a 24/7/365 job. :(
That's what many have thought but Bill O'Rielly proved there's always time for fun even on the job.
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I agree that everybody should be welcome on this forum to share their point of view and opinion about any and all aspects of the hot tub experience. However, I also believe that one of the best traits of this forum is that there seems to be an enjoyable, comfortable, respectful tone that permeates the discussion. It isn't as enjoyable or informative or productive when someone is intent on being provocative, simplistic and just plain ignorant to others in an attempt to spread their point of view as the only "correct" point of view. A bit of respect and understanding for others goes a long way.
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Well said Jordy. To elude to ebirrane's post, I once strongly believed that also. Steering people clear of the Spa Deceptionist is important but every post on him and his spas is a form of advertising and all it takes is one uneducated fool to slip by and believe the information contained in that pit of lies of a web site, and we've failed.
Jim relies on the www because he has no money for local, strategic advertising. These forums have potential for him and we all know that bad publicity is still publicity. We've seen the type of people that purchase his spas and then make it to other spa forums. They all have this similar personality of not having one... These are the ones that slip by and then spend the rest of the time (when not out fixing their own spa) trying to justify it. I say we let it go and never use the real name of the company or Jim's last name as well as not responding to the level of Jim and his followers.
The less people that even hear of this scam, the better. Being a member of these forums for a few years now and dealing with them a couple of times a year generally, I can tell you that once ignored, they disappear. They need attention to flourish and as long as no one provides it, the cool-aide is always flowing where he came from.
Steve
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Fightin' liberals is a 24/7/365 job. The world is a dangerous place and liberals are just wrong and can't be trusted. World peace and freedom we enjoy today is in peril. The war on terrorism needs to be handled by the U.S.M.C. not some world court. God Bless the American Soldier! God Bless America!........
Making attacks on fellow American's over spas is just plain wrong! :(
As a Proud Canadian I have absolutely no problem with my American friends. And am not interested in examining political decisions between governments. This site is Hot tubs not political. But whe I read comments like yours that preach a blind holyer than though mentality makes me go insane.
I'll stop here and not deal with you any longer 'cause if I do I would get banned from this site.
Suffice it to say -- A$$HOLE.
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As a Proud Canadian I have absolutely no problem with my American friends. And am not interested in examining political decisions between governments. This site is Hot tubs not political. But whe I read comments like yours that preach a blind holyer than though mentality makes me go insane.
I'll stop here and not deal with you any longer 'cause if I do I would get banned from this site.
Suffice it to say -- A$$HOLE.
I second that motion. Yes there are some non hot tub discussions here. Yes I do like my neighbors to the south. Yes I am somewhat interested in the impending election.
If there are 5+ spa forums there must be political and religous forums too. I can understand if one of the members wishes to let us know where he/she is leaning in the election, great.
Repeatedly making left or right wing comments tells me that a member has a political agenda or simply wishes to stir the political pot. Either way I would prefer to keep politics and religion off of this forum.
Hot Tub Man
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*APPLAUSE APPLAUSE*
I whole heartedly agree! I love the United States of America! I am like wmmcall, 18 more days! For one, I am sick of the whole drama (and this coming from a true drama queen)!!! I'm tired of everyone being so negative! I have never been so bombarded by negative campaign adds. Our senate race is a joke! I don't even want to get started!
I love my tub! I like coming here and reading and/or talking to the people here about tubs and the positive effects on our lives! I don't need politics invading this board!
Just my thoughts!
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www.jibjab.com you've probably seen it, but it's political humor of the BEST kind. It should be on "whatsthebestpoliticalhumor.com."
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"Fightin' liberals is a 24/7/365 job. The world is a dangerous place and liberals are just wrong and can't be trusted. World peace and freedom we enjoy today is in peril. The war on terrorism needs to be handled by the U.S.M.C. not some world court. God Bless the American Soldier! God Bless America!........ "
I'm sorry for extending the politics on this thread but this guy among other Neanderthals just doesn't get it.
Please read the following Mr. Happy and respond if you can.
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JIM REPUBLICAN
Jim gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with
water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is
clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal
fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his
first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily
medication. His medications are safe to take because
some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their
safety and that they work as advertised.
All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his
employer's medical plan because some liberal union
workers fought their employers for paid medical
insurance - now Jim gets it too. He prepares his
morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Jim's bacon is safe
to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws
to regulate the meat packing industry.
In the morning shower, Jim reaches for his shampoo.
His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient
and its amount in the total contents because some
crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he
was putting on his body and how much it contained. Jim
dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The
air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist
wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from
polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for
his government-subsidized rid e to work. It saves him
considerable money in parking and transportation fees
because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable
public transportation, which gives everyone the
opportunity to be a contributor.
Jim begins his work day. He has a good job with
excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid
holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union
members fought and died for these working standards.
Jim's employer pays these standards because Jim's
employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.
If Jim is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll
get a worker compensation or unemployment check
because some stupid liberal didn't think he should
lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
Its noontime and Jim needs to make a bank deposit so
he can pay some bills. Jim's deposit is federally
insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal
wanted to protect Jim's money from unscrupulous
bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great
Depression.
Jim has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage
and his below-market federal student loan because some
elitist liberal decided that Jim and the government
would be better off if he was educated and earned more
money over his lifetime.
Jim is home from work. He plans to visit his father
this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets
in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest
in the world because some America-hating liberal
fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his
boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in
the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration
because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The
house didn't have electricity until some
big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't
belong and demanded rural electrification.
He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His
father lives on Social Security and a union pension
because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made
sure he could take care of himself so Jim wouldn't
have to.
Jim gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns
on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that
liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He
doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have
fought against every protection and benefit Jim enjoys
throughout his day.
Jim agrees: "We don't need those big-government
liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a
self-made man who believes everyone should take care
of themselves, just like I have."
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BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, By your statements, the liberals have saved the world! What would we do with out them? Lets take the liberal point of view that this war is about oil. Hmmm, OK well if the liberal tree huggers would have allowed drilling for oil in an UNINHABITED, save a few caribou and polar bears, frozen tundra of Alaska, we would not have had need to go there to fight for oil, therefore, the fight in Iraq is to be squarely blamed on the liberals. I dont subscribe to either of these points of view, but your previous diatribe was a little skewed.
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Who says the liberal reason we're there is for oil???
Do you want to know the real reason why we are there??
Do you have a real clue???
I'll fill you in then....
Look at your atlas,,,,,
Notice, we've been in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Look whose right inbetween them.
Nuclear "wannabe" Iran.
This isn't about any friggin oil
We can buy oil anywhere anytime.
This is about letting those fanatic bastards in Iran know that they're on notice. They wanna mess around a build a nuke? They'll be next.
That's why we're in Iraq.
I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. There are alot of us out there too, neither that is. We just see things as they are and not through some skewed selfish point of view.
I posted the above story about Joe Republican because it is so true regarding the tons of narrow minded fools who go about their day blaming the woes of the world on "treehuggers".
The story is not skewed either. It is plain fact and it is plain fact that Republicans are all about big business rights and protecting the wealthy's money first and foremost.
That is plain wrong.
Yes, the "liberals" have a history of "socialism", "giving too many free rides", but I do believe it was Clinton who cut back unemployment/welfare benefits last term, was it not?
If only the people of this country could just wake up, open their eyes for a minute, we would be well on our way with sticking a knife into the 2 party system. (Really one party). They have outgrown their usefullness as well as the Electoral College system.
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Right on, Ed.
I'd like a legitimate Haven spa owner to participate in this forum. I've got to believe that someone out there who owns a Haven and can discuss their spa objectively. Mr. Happy doesn't cut it, since he's just Arjuna or one of his loyal followers posing as a Haven customer.
Brewman
I don't BELIEVE there are that many "happy" Craven owners that they would actually have any type of "pool" of objective users. At one time, we thought that this dog-walking guy called "Water Weasel" may have been an actual owner. Since he "claimed" it we initially took him at his word. Of course, it only took about a month before it became obvious that Weasel was just another one of Jim's mulitple personalities. Maybe we should start calling him Cybil. It DOES seem to fit him quite well. Yes, an independent Craven owner would be an interesting charcater that I am certain would add a great deal of fun and merriment but alas, it's like trying to find a virgin on a college campus now-adays... It just ISN'T going to happen...IMHO
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Ricky - I like to call myself "politically agnostic". This PISSES off both the left and the right because NEITHER of them are correct. After all, it's not the popular vote that wins an election or else Bush would never have been in there (But some of this is changing for the better). Bush has political motives. THATS why we are in IRAQ. It was 'smoke and mirrors" with the (now proven) false WMD arguments. After all, it wasn't IRAQ or IRAN that ran planes into those towers, it was a group of extremist (their religion is in-material here). Bush does have some good points but the war is not one of them. I am a registered republican but even I can see that it's time for some common sense to be brought back into the management of this country. Of course, until there is a TRUE independent leader, we only have two choices. One is bad, the other has proven that he is worse by his poor management of the government these past 3.95 years. Afterall, he was NEVER suppose to have been there in the first place based on the popular vote. I personally hope that this election is a close one and I will do my part to make it so....engage!
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Your first three words say it all!
Very good.... for a four year old. If you want to debate your REALLY going to have to do better than that!
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I would love to offer you debate. Unfortunately though you are too ignorant and unable to cite any fact on any argument you present.
Jim (or Jim wanna-be) - Put a sock in it!!!
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I would love to offer you debate. Unfortunately though you are too ignorant and unable to cite any fact on any argument you present.
I too would debate you but it would be like putting out a match with a fire truck. I see your still only 4. To prove your age, why don't you go ahead and get in the last word...
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Mr.Happy,
I am only myself not "htfun"- I don't understand your confusion or the basis of your insinuation. I am not afraid or shy about expressing myself openly and honestly to you or anyone else. If you have something else to say directly to me, feel free to send me an email.
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Jim (or Jim wanna-be) - Put a sock in it!!!
Bullseye!!!!!!
Brewman
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I don't BELIEVE there are that many "happy" Craven owners that they would actually have any type of "pool" of objective users.
Your are probably right, but there's got to be at least one out there somewhere. The problem is that "Cybil" has polluted so many spa boards with fake identities, that no real Cavein owner would stand a chance anyway. We'd all think it was another faker.
At one time, we thought that this dog-walking guy called "Water Weasel" may have been an actual owner. Since he "claimed" it we initially took him at his word. Of course, it only took about a month before it became obvious that Weasel was just another one of Jim's mulitple personalities.
I remember that Weasel crap. Wasn't he eventually ferreted out as that LP guy?
Maybe we should start calling him Cybil. It DOES seem to fit him quite well.
Great Idea!!
Yes, an independent Craven owner would be an interesting charcater that I am certain would add a great deal of fun and merriment but alas, it's like trying to find a virgin on a college campus now-adays... It just ISN'T going to happen...IMHO
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Keep in mind that the majority is quite often wrong. It's the minority that causes change and very often improvements in products and in general the quality of our too short lives.
Fascinating. Working for a researchy place, I can tell you that (with tangible products, not philosophy) the majority is stable, but not always perfectly efficient. However, for every 1 honest improvement there was often more than 1 failure or unintended side-effect. Honest innovators refine. Dishonest innovators get good enough then look for profit.
There really are some people who sell the idea of innovation without the actual innovation. That's different than, say, those who sacrifice stability in favor of some desired optimization. Some people (we call them early adopters) enjoy the tradeoff. Others do not. Glad I didn't by a first generation LCD tv. 8)
Those who peddle in false (as opposed to incomplete) innovation paint the "majority" as complacent. The majority is not often wrong by simple definition of being the majority. That makes no sense. The implication is that the majority gets some sort of lock on the "genre" and gets complacent. Complacency *does* often miss valid innovation.
With all of the debate going on amongst the majority in hot tubs (FF vs TP, ozone or no, jet or circ pump, to name a few) I don't think you can really accuse the majority of complacency. Those that do are most likely trying to sell you something. It is that belief that places the likes of Mr. Arjuna closer to a conspiracy theorist and hobbyist than a peer in the industry.
-Ed
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Fascinating. Working for a researchy place, I can tell you that (with tangible products, not philosophy) the majority is stable, but not always perfectly efficient. However, for every 1 honest improvement there was often more than 1 failure or unintended side-effect. Honest innovators refine. Dishonest innovators get good enough then look for profit.
There really are some people who sell the idea of innovation without the actual innovation. That's different than, say, those who sacrifice stability in favor of some desired optimization. Some people (we call them early adopters) enjoy the tradeoff. Others do not. Glad I didn't by a first generation LCD tv. 8)
Those who peddle in false (as opposed to incomplete) innovation paint the "majority" as complacent. The majority is not often wrong by simple definition of being the majority. That makes no sense. The implication is that the majority gets some sort of lock on the "genre" and gets complacent. Complacency *does* often miss valid innovation.
With all of the debate going on amongst the majority in hot tubs (FF vs TP, ozone or no, jet or circ pump, to name a few) I don't think you can really accuse the majority of complacency. Those that do are most likely trying to sell you something. It is that belief that places the likes of Mr. Arjuna closer to a conspiracy theorist and hobbyist than a peer in the industry.
-Ed
BINGO - EXTREME APPLAUSE!!!