Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Max78 on September 24, 2004, 10:49:25 pm
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I have heard that good, clean water in you spa should be blue. I've had my hot tub a couple of weeks now and don't remember what "cast" the water had to it when first filled. Last Sunday, my water was clear but had a definite "bright" green(Spa Defender color) cast to it. I shocked and it seemed to help. Didn't turn it a noticeable blue but took a lot of the greenish out. To me, it still looks like it has that green cast. Color reminds me of the glass in the replacement windows in my house or car windows...you know, how it has the hue to it. The tub had very little use this week and I made sure the chemical readings were correct each day (and have everyday since I got it). Should I drain and start over or is this a normal color?
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Ummmmm,
Might need to know what you're using, dichlor or bromine etc..how often it is added and things of this nature. My tub is always clear ( I have a light colored interior), unless I miss adding the chems...
Give us some more info and I'm sure you'll get some good responses.......
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My water has never been a color. Its always clear. I know this from doing my water test every other day and bringing tester of water inside, its always clear, never green or blue.
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Clear, unless your tub was 15-50 feet deep---and then it would APPEAR blue due to all colors of light longer than ultraviolet being filtered out. ;D
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I am using dichlor after each use (about 1 tsp. per person), I've used dichlor to shock and MPS to shock, Spa Defender 2 oz weekly, 1/2 cap GLB Natural Clear (an enzyme cleaner) weekly. My water is clear but has the greenish cast. It is clear and has no cast in the sample bottles. This may sound dumb but could it be a reflection from my windows? Spa sits about 4 feet under and 3 feet out from the kitchen windows. They're not big windows.
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Okay...nevermind the hairbrain "reflection" theory! When I lift my cover from the opposite side away from the windows and the spa is shielded from any reflection by the other side of the cover, there's no change. So, just forget I ever suggested that one!!
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Not a hairbrain theory at all! That's just good thinking and problem solving. And it is true that the water will "reflect" color. That reminds me of a story when I was a kid...
Our in-ground pool made of Gunite and plaster (very white) was complete and the fill began. I was standing next to my mother when she asked the pool man "So how does the water get blue? Don't you need to paint it?" The pool man chuckled and said - "the sky will paint it blue for you".
hmmm... what color is the sky above your tub? you have lots of trees surrounding your tub?
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Sometimes our brains are just on vacation I think. I just wish my body could join it!
Sky above it is blue and no trees nearby.
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is your tub shell green?
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Tub shell is sienna (white w/ grey & tan flecks)
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How is the metal content in your water? Copper will give a green hue to the water.
I am a D-1 dealer. I have seen and have received reports from customers that the water turned green after adding bromine. This reaction is much more obvious in the UltraLife shell (white) This reaction, I have since learned is the result of adding bromine to the body of water that contained no sanitizer. The reaction is green and or yellow most often and goes away provided you do not allow bromine level to reach zero again before adding more.
Hope this helps.
HTMan
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Typically if it is a cloudy green it is an organic issue and just needs a shock. If is a clear green it can be just a reaction of the minerals in the water with the oxidizers.
You can add solution like Protect plus and then shock with a bit more Di-Chlor, leave the cover open a bit to let the spa breath and it should go away.
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My water has a slightly torquise refective tint to it. It is clear when I take a container of water out of it. I was told by a dealer that against a white or light tub, the water will look blue - other colors it will look clear. The pictures I've seen of others tubs that are white show b lue tinted water.
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Beth: Yes, my water has the same reflective tint to it. Water has no tint when put in a sample bottle. I'm glad to hear it is not just me. Does your dealter say this is normal? Mine is an Optima also (Sienna shell).
Stuart: What is Protect Plus? Is it like Metal Gone? Also, does anyone know how to determine if Metal Gone is necessary? I have municipal water and am not sure of the metal content.
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On my first fill my water also turned bright green. Now I believe that it was algal growth due to the fact that we received our hot tub and it had been left out in the rain (yikes!) before delivery, with the cover open. There was not enough sanitizer on that first fill to get rid of all the garbage from the stagnant rainwater. Second fill a lighter green on the 2nd day. Third fill I kept thinking it looked green......was I paranoid by that point? It is now our 4th fill and I noticed **AS I WAS FILLING IT** that it has a very faint green tint to it. It has never changed since the fill. We have well water, so maybe it is high mineral content reacting with the dichlor. I only use dichlor, and also Minquest upon fillup.
Also, my tub is platinum which actually means white with gray streaks in it, similar to what you are describing. My water is clear and definitely properly sanitized, but as I said, when I filled it from the well it had a very light green tint to it and still does.
:)
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Your water department should tell you the levels of iron and manganese in your water. Your dealer should also be able to test your water or know your municipality and if the levels are present. I use municipal water and it has both iron and manganese but low calcium. I use metal gon.
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My water looked green, I adjusted it, it turned kind of pink, I adjusted it, turned a purple color I turned that stupid watercolors light off.....
It looks clear now.... :-[
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Tony: Since you have low calcium, do you use Spa Defender (or an equivalent) weekly? My calcium is on the low end ~ 150. I have used the Spa Defender a couple of times and since it is such a bright green, I thought it might have something to do with the greenish hue.
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I use 2 oz of spa defender every other week. The spa defender will not turn water green. My calcium level is around 70.
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Great thread........glad it was initiated as I've had some of the same questions. My water is always clear, never cloudy but the color will definitely change from an aqua blue when freshly filled to the same aqua with a hint of lime color. Since my tub is white, it shows the water color very accurately. Even with the lime tint, the water chemistry tests fine. I'm attributing the hint of lime color to accumulating solids. Occaisionally, especially after heavy use (can you say party?!) the hint of lime may be a touch darker. A good dichlor shock and some extra filtration and we're back to an acceptable color.
I've got pictures of my water when newly filled at
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brdhd/album?.dir=e8c7&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos
I'll post a couple of the water now (after about a month since change) after I reopen the tub and we get some sun--battened the hatches yesterday with Jeanne's arrival--lot's of wind (no more than tropical storm strength), a little rain but no damage in our neck of the woods, thank goodness.
8)
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Nice pictures and nice tub! My water looks just like that!
I had a hot tub repairman tell me that "there's just something wrong with your water. I wouldn't use THAT water. You need to drain that stuff". Now I"m wondering if I'd have this same color if I were using a bromine based system, or Baqua, rather than the dichlor that I am using. Those are the only two methods this hot tub dealership sells to their customers, so this repairman is seeing bromine or Baqua treated water, and not solely dichlor methods as I am using.
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Hi Max 78:
I've responded to this type of question a number of times on this forum using what works for me, so I'll try again.
I have a large tub with a shell of grey/white and brown flecks. The ONLY time I get "green" water (even in bright sunshine) is when the water is "dirty." Generally, it turns "green" (combination of tub color and color of dissolved stuff) when a bunch of “dissolved solids” (not the chemical type) get suspended in the tub water.
Before you start worrying about a chemical problem, try this. First, go to your local Lowes (if you live near one) and buy a product called "Super Clear Clarifier" by AquaEZ (the big BLUE bottle, about $8.00 and it lasts a LONG time, see link below). This product (or another like it) is a highly concentrated cationic polymer that will "clump" the CRAP out of the stuff in your tub. From what I can tell, it’s also pH neutral.
Turn the tub on and adjust the diverter valves so that the surface water (and foam) is directed into the filter box. Add 3 caps of this stuff to the water and run the tub for one cycle. Keep a small bucket of water and a cotton rag handy to wipe out the nasty stuff that will form in the filter box.
In about 5 minutes you will begin to see orange/brown "stuff" clumping in the surface foam and running into your filter. A bunch of this stuff may also form on the tub walls. GET RID OF IT! Use the wet cotton cloth and wipe it out, followed by rinsing the cloth in the bucket. This “STUFF” is what comes out of people’s skin (sun tan lotion, deodorants, moisturizing agents, dissolved fats, dead skin, dirt, etc., YEAH, I know, that’s GROSS). Keep the spa running for about 30 minutes.
After the tub runs one cycle, pull the filters and REALLY clean them using a filter cleaning solution and a garden hose. Use the hose on "stream" and REALLY blast the filter. Replace the filters and let the tub run an additional cycle. Stop the pumps and let the water settle for about 15 minutes. At this point, the water should be clear. If not, repeat the treatment again. Consider doing this every weekend if you use the tub daily.
After you finish "cleaning" the water, re-install the filters and shock the water with an all-in-one vinyl pool shock treatment with dichlor that also contains a clarifying agent. This will work more slowly, allowing the clarifying agents to "clean" the water over a longer period of time while the circ pump (if your spa has one) is running.
If this method doesn’t clear the water, your problem might be chemical in nature.
I've used this method VERY effectively and have literally "cleaned" water that looked so BAD you couldn't see the bottom of the tub -- making CLEAR sparkling water in less than two hours. For maintenance, I use a "scum ball" (the white puffy ball they sell in spa stores) with one (1) cap of clarifier and a little bit of dichlor after each use. Generally, I add the maintenance dose of clarifier a few minutes AFTER dichlor while the tub is running. Once weekly (or more often after heavier use), I rinse out the scum ball.
Check this product link:
http://www.aquaez.com/sub_chemicals.html
Hope this helps...
Drewski
:D
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Metals, Metals, Metals... grab some Metal-X from your dealer.
Good Luck,
Neil O'Donovan
Phoenix Park Outdoor Living
Wilmington, NC
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Metals, Metals, Metals... grab some Metal-X from your dealer.
PPOL,
How would metals be introduced into the tub other than through the addition of water that contains metals?
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PPOL: I added a bottle of Metal Gone at fill up which was just about 2 1/2 weeks ago. Is Metal X the same product as Metal Gone?
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These are the kind of replies that I find frustrating.
Yes, I have iron in my water. 0.8 mg/L No, I do not have copper in my water.
YES I have added a metal remover!!!. I"ve used MetalGone and this time I've used Minquest, as directed.
No, my water is NOT dirty. It is this color when I fill it from my well.
Yes, I have tried three different clarifiers. I"ll have these bottles FOREVER now, I"ll never need this much in my lifetime! The clarifiers did nothing. One of them did foam a little tiny bit,and I removed the foam as directed, but REMEMBER, my water is freshly filled so there's no garbage there to remove from the water.
None of these things change the color of my water. It's that way when I fill it and it stays that way. As windsurfdog mentioned, I have times when it looks more green and upon checking my combined chlorine levels, will find that it's time for a shock. The shock removes that little bit of extra green coloration, but my water still has a very FAINT tint. I believe that water is not colorless when it is in a large white vessel. At first I thought there wa ssomehting wrong with my water but after this 4th fill I don't think so.
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Drew,
While at the AquaEZ site, I saw the spray on filter cleaner that AquaEZ markets through Lowe's. Have you used it and, if so, did you like it?
Thanks in advance.....
8)
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Hi Stingfan:
First, I feel your pain. My last post wasn't directed at you, it was for Max. BELIEVE when I say that I know water clarity can be frustrating.
Second, just from reading your posts, you sound quite competent in describing your water. Personally, if I had the water you had (if it looks like the pictures on Windsurfdog's site) I'd be happy with it. Maybe it's perception? I don't know. If the chemistry is NOT harmful and it DON'T foam, maybe you could "live" with it?
My only suggestion for "peace of mind" is to send a sample to an environmental testing company and have a component analysis done on it. This usually costs between $50 and $100, depending on what is tested.
A link to a company that does this by mail is:
http://www.grotek.net/lab/services.asp
Good luck!
Drewski
:-/
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Hi Windsurfdog:
What'up Dawg? (Sorry dude, but I've just been dying to say that since the first time I saw your screen name) ;)
Yup, I'm using that stuff from Lowes (I forget the name of it, I'm at work, but it's yellow in the spray bottle) and it works fine.
I have paper canister filters that screw off. I pull them, spray each one down heavily with the stuff, wait 10 minutes and then hose them off. I've noticed a definite improvement in how clean they get when using this product compared to the hose alone.
See ya around...
Drew
8)
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Drewski: Thanks for all your help. It is appreciated. Some on here sound a little frustrated. That wasn't the intent. I think we are all here to help each other even if we don't always get the answers we want. I've found this forum to be a very valuable tool in my research for a hot tub and in the subsequent perils of ownership (chemistry, equipment, etc). It's a learning process but with everyone sharing and exchanging information it makes everything a little easier.
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Drewmeister,
I'm glad you endorse the filter cleaner 'cause I stopped by Lowe's on the way home and picked up a bottle! I'll clean'em up in the next couple of days. Interesting that here in Tallahassee there is only 1 spa dealer (Rec Warehouse) and within 20 miles there's a Sundance dealer and that's it until one travels at least 65 miles away. Since I bought my spa in Tampa, it's rather hard to "stop by" and pick up a thing or two. I've given Doc plenty of access to my Visa and will give him plenty more but it is interesting that the only place in Florida's capital to find spray on filter cleaner is Lowe's. BTW, I won't patronize the Sundance dealer at all because of the way he refused to take my $8k when I was looking for a tub........oh well, so much for dealing locally........
8)
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Drewski~I tried your suggestion and here are the results. Lowe's didn't have the brand of clarifier you named. They had one by Kem-Tek called Ultra Clarifier. Big blue bottle, thick liquid. The foam that was generated was white. It didn't have any brownish, orange gunk. However, I did develop a scum line in the filter box that I had to wipe off a number of times. It was a bright, florescent lime green. It looked like it would glow in the dark. Don't know what it was. Water still had a green tint. Cleaned the filters and shocked. It was getting dark after that so I couldn't see color of the water. This morning it was a turquoise color which I think must be the "normal" color of my water. Water is clear but always has been. Don't know what the glowing green stuff was but I hope it stays away.
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Hi Max:
GLAD to see you made progress!
“Florescent lime green” stuff coming out of your water? HOLY Riddler’s ghost, Batman!
Although I'm not 100% certain about what you described, it sounds to me like algae caused your water color problem. The reason why I'm not 100% is because algae usually doesn’t "flocculate" out "bright green." From what I've experienced before, it's light brown. The stuff you have in the water COULD be something else; then again it's PROBABLY algae. Maybe it wasn’t dead yet and that’s why it was bright green?
In any case, you can see the result. SOMETHING is suspended in the water. Chances are it is an organic substance, not a metal. The polymer agent caused it to clump and participate out.
A little advice about the polymer clarifying agent I recommended using. You can SUPER dose your tub for faster and more significant results. I wouldn't go beyond 6 capfuls in a session, but when I've used that much the results are impressive. I've found that it usually takes 24 to 48 hours for a super dose to stop working, meaning the minute someone gets in the water when the polymer is still “active,” "scum" will start showing up in the filter box or around the tub. Generally, this looks like "oily" bubbles with "stuff" floating in them. If you "super" clarify, you may want to wait 24 hours before using the tub.
Now, I'm going to say something that a number of regulars may disagree with. Please remember, it's only my OPINION. For what it's worth, I think that too many people DON'T use enough sanitizing agent in their tub. I've read posts recommending a "1/4 tablespoon of dichlor per user" with "weekly shocks." I just don't think this is enough for anyone who uses their tub daily, let alone someone who has friends over weekly. Based on a number of the "water stories" posted here recently, I think many of these people are experiencing the same problem you did. I usually find that SIMPLE problems, like algae or dirty water, cause most issues. Metals, complex chemistry, etc., are UNUSUAL problems.
When I first got my tub, I purchased "Enhanced Shock" from SpaGuard (see http://www.spaguard.com/oxidizers.shtm). It cost $13.95 for a 2 LB plastic bottle. SpaGuard's "Enhanced Shock" is EXACTLY the same product as something called "Shock Plus" available at K-Mart stores in my area (the K-Mart product has an identical ingredients and volume% label). It's labeled for pool use and comes in small soft plastic "socks." You’re supposed to dump an entire sock into a pool to treat the water. The product is 58.2% dichlor and 42.8% "other" ingredients. The product is listed as an "oxidizer, buffer, flocculent and stabilizer." Every night, after use, I put about 3/4 of a shot glass treatment in my 500 gal tub. Aside from that, I only "shock" it (I like to think of it as “pre-treating”) about 4 hours prior to guests coming over. The "shock" treatment is almost double my usual dose. A 5 LB box of the K-Mart stuff is $11 during pool season, $8 off-season. I still use the SpaGuard bottle for putting the "Shock Plus" stuff in. Occasionally, I add additional sodium bicarbonate (pH up) to adjust the pH and I adjust overall chemistry after a water change for appropriate hardness, alkalinity, etc. I’m also a believer in calcium after a water change (to prevent metal component corrosion) and I test for it monthly. Recently, I've added "Nature2" ($11 a tube on e-Bay) to see if it assists with stabilization of non-sanitizers and I must admit it does.
Over the last 5 years, I've used this method VERY effectively. I rarely have cloudy water and when I do it's usually because a large number of people used the tub and I didn't "clean" the water and filters yet, using the method I described earlier. My cover hasn't "rotted" off and I haven't noticed any discoloration or fading of the spa shell. My water is clear and I NEVER have foam problems (unless women using heavy lotion on their skin get in the tub). In all, I was paying less than $25 a year for treating my water prior to adding Nature2. This will increase to about $60 a year with Nature2.
So, in my opinion, based on what I've read happened to your water, I’d recommend increasing your sanitation and consider switching to an "all-in-one" product. This will probably solve your “green” problem and result in fewer issues. Others will probably comment on this and may offer better advice, but, again, 5 years of success is hard to argue with.
Good Luck!
Drewski
8)
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I believe stuart also uses enhanced shock. Spaguard's enhanced shock is a mixture of dichlor, non chlorine shock (mps), flocculant and a pH buffer. I have tried something similar with good results from Northman's routine at rhtubs FAQ....one tblspn dichlor with two tblspn non chlorine shock. I only use a flocculant when necessary.
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Drewski,
No offense taken. You give good advice and clear instructions!
I have used Leisure Time's Spa Brite and seen no difference in my water. On this fill I have tried Sea Klear clarifier (sold by Doc on rhtubs) twice. I did not use it due to cloudy water, only wanted to see if I could change the color. There was no change. Do you think either of these products would be the same as the Lowe's brand that you recommend? I do not have a Lowe's anywhere near me (I live in the boonies in N.Michigan!) and I would have to order it online. In your opinion, would it be worth a try for me, even though I"ve tried these other brands?
Maye it's just the worrier in me, the perfectionist, trying to figure out if my water is correct. My water looks like other pictures I have seen posted of owners' new tubs, including windsurfdog's; there is just a faint coloration to it.
btw, windsurfdog: have you been successful at removing that slight coloration? :-/
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Thanks stingfan, I appreciate your response...
Sorry to hear you still have problems. When I first tried these products I used the "regular" strength one for awhile without impressive results. At the time, I was buying the stuff from spa dealers.
I was in Lowes one day when I came across their spa and pool section. In my local store it was pretty big. I had never seen the "super" strength stuff before, so I said "what the heck?" and bought it. I followed the instructions initially (the stuff I bought only had pool instructions, so I went through that "figuring out for 500 gallons" procedure) and I wasn't impressed (again).
I then decided to get RADICAL and increase the amount. WOW, suddenly there was like cheese floating on my water and I was amazed (and alarmed). I played with the amount to add and eventually found that between 2 and 6 capfuls work best, along with repeated treatments and multiple filter cleanings.
Maybe differences in results occur depending on the size of the stuff suspended in the water? Smaller particles, when they clump, DON'T flocculate out as much unless you REALLY make them clump? Maybe that's why more powerful polymers and increased amount work better on smaller stuff?? Normally, the smaller stuff passes through the filter because it's not BIG enough for the filter to stop? (I'm guessing on all of this) The bigger stuff, on the other hand, does seem to clump easier, so the filters catch it.
I can't say for sure if the stuff you mentioned will work. I can tell you that the stuff I have is described as a "cationic polymer," "super concentrated," is blue, and is a little thicker than maple syrup at room temperature.
Maybe you should consider increasing the amount of stuff you’re currently using to see if it works?
In any case, I think SOMETHING is suspended in your water. As a last resort, try this. Pull the filters, clean them thoroughly. SUPER shock the tub (three shot glasses of dichlor in the morning, consider leaving cover off for a few hours, run pumps for 40 minutes, stand back, it WILL smell BAD). After 6 hours, add some of the clarifying agent you are already using and let the tub run on the circ pump until the next morning covered without getting in it and see what happens. If it’s clear the next day, clean the filters and increase your “base” sanitation level.
BTW, during "normal" treatment times, with the water color you describe, does the underwater portion of your tub shell feel a little "slippery" or even "slimy" to the touch? I know this is subjective, but try comparing it to how the shell feels when the water is clear. If it IS "slippery," I'll bet you have an algae problem. Some algae's are TOUGH, so "normal" treatments don't always work.
Hope this helps...
Drewski
:D
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Drewski
No, I do not feel any slimy or slippery stuff anywhere in my tub. That's why I don't think it is an algal issue.
When I fill my tub there is already some coloration in it. Our well water comes from an area very high in limestone. (there is a quarry less than a mile from my house) My initial alkalinity is about 230mg/L. What you said about small particles in the water......just wondering if my water is like that because of the limestone. Maybe a flocculent won't remove those small dissolved solids.
I haven't given up on this issue yet. I am due for a shock in the next couple days, so I will try what you suggested...superchlorination and then using more of the flocculent. I'll first have to check and see if they are cationic. The SeaKlear is a natural polymer and I don't know what the Leisure Time stuff is. The SeaKlear is a little syrupy but not as concentrated as you are describing. Maybe using more will make a difference.
Still enjoying the tub each evening, regardless. When I sit in the complete darkness there is no color at all..haha ;D
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Regarding clarifiers:
This is a very informative link:
http://www.rhtubs.com/clarifiers.htm
From what I understand the clarifiers I have purchased are all cationic. Not all clarifiers are equal, some are better at removing various kinds suspended particles, than others. Guess it's just a matter of trying different brands and dosages to find what will suit your needs.
Another thing I read in this article is that some are affected (disabled) by chlorine. I added my clarifier shortly after using a dose of dichlor. Also, I just added 1oz and did not dilute it with water and broadcast it as directed in this article. It may have been pulled right into and deposited onto the filters, which would not have allowed it to do it's job.
Learn something new everyday, hey?
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Superchlorinating my water (>30ppm chlorine) caused my water to turn a pretty light blue color. As time went by and chlorine levels dropped over a 2 day period, the water lost it's blue tint and returned to the slight color I had before. That happened at around 5ppm chlorine. After the chlorine level dropped below 1ppm I used a triple dose of cationic clarifier. Still no change in the slight color of the water.
My water is not colorless, but there's definitely not anything wrong with it. Clean and not staining my shell. Not truly green either, just is not colorless. I'm satisfied.
:)
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Good to hear buddy!
Enjoy a soak, you deserve it.
I had 20 people in and out of my tub on Saturday, including 8 kids, and left home late Saturday night. Couldn't treat on Sunday. Last night when I got home late, my water looked like soup. When I get off work today, I'll be working on my water for tonight.
Oh joy...
Drewski
;)
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btw, windsurfdog: have you been successful at removing that slight coloration?
Superchlorinating my water (>30ppm chlorine) caused my water to turn a pretty light blue color. As time went by and chlorine levels dropped over a 2 day period, the water lost it's blue tint and returned to the slight color I had before. That happened at around 5ppm chlorine. After the chlorine level dropped below 1ppm I used a triple dose of cationic clarifier. Still no change in the slight color of the water.
My water is not colorless, but there's definitely not anything wrong with it. Clean and not staining my shell. Not truly green either, just is not colorless. I'm satisfied.
stingfan,
I've reached the same conclusions as you though I haven't used any clarifier. I'm happy and the color change is just another indicator.......
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