Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Brewman on September 27, 2004, 08:11:42 am
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I just read a post on the evil one's board, where a Ha*en owner give his one year report on his tub. Apparrently J has his people so brainwashed that this person just loves his spa, despite the fact that with less than a year of ownership:
Replace Controller board
Replace Pump
Replace Blower
Steps provided considered awkward and unsafe
Many jets impossible to remove.
Lower jets constantly clogged with sand
Jets need to be "wresled out" to be removed.
I guess Phoenix isn't giving these the extra TLC that Jim says they get.
Brewman
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Just to be fair, if this were a Hotspring or Sundance or whatever, we would be telling the customer "now aren't you glad you had a local dealer to take care of all the problems." It just goes to show that dealer support is very crucial.
George
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Serjical,
Good point. It probably happens to a few customers of those brands every year.
However, Phoenix manufactures probably about 1% of what Hotspring and Sundance combined manufactuer. Also, don’t forget Haven “manufactures” probably .0001% of what Hotspring and Sundance produce. It is a numbers game, and I would rather have the Hotspring and Sundance numbers than the Haven/Phoenix numbers.
Chris H
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I applaud serjicals frankness here. I have encountered very satisfied Gulf Coast customers too, despite what everyone here seems to think about them.
I have said it before nd I will say it again:
The dealer can make a mediocre tub seem great and a great tub seem mediocre.
Dazed, this is your cue.
HTMan
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I wouldn't have brought this up at all if it were'nt for JA screaming at anyone who'll listen on how HORRIBLE most other spas are.
Any spa can have problems. But if I had the type of problems that the original poster had, I'd not be telling the world how teriffic the spa was. I'd be disapointed in the quality. How many people, who had this many major things go wrong in their new SUV in the first year would be happy, even if the warranty covered the repairs. I'd be scared of the problems I'd have to pay for after the warranty.
But having a local dealer there to make things right would be preferable to having someone mail me the parts for me to install myself, as the case with this spa.
Brewman
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This is where Jim would fabricate one of his little stories if it were another spa company to show how they don't take care of their customers like he does. It would go something like this:
"I was at the store when an 85 yr old little lady called after getting home from church and asked if I could help her. She lives in New Foundland, bought a &$#^% Spa, has had problems with A, B, C, D, E & F and to make matters worse the spa company won't even come out to fix it so she has to do so herself. She suffers from Arthritis, Lupus, Dimentia, 4 forms of cancer, a wooden leg, a receding hairline and has 2 glass eyes. I found a handyman through the internet and sent him out to fix the spa and Sandy made her a Tuna Noodle Casserole and overnighted it so she could have a good home cooked meal. Now if she had bought a H@ven she would NEVER have had such problems because our Quality Control is second to none and we NEVER have failures. If she had a problem requiring service (obviously due to operator error) she would have been in luck as I have service people around the globe ready at a moments notice 24/7. And if she had been in Boone County she would really have been in luck as I would have sent out Kenny who would have fixed her spa problem and mowed her lawn while he was there. "
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a wooden leg
That one put me over the edge laughing...
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And if she had been in Boone county she would really have been in luck as I would have sent out Kenny who would have fixed her problem and mowed her lawn while he was there. "
Spatech,
Your ability for fabricated sarcasm is scary! I'm going to save this one! don't forget that Jim won't be able to work on here spa himself as he is currently advising missile defense and writing debate for one of the presidential candidates.
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The scary part is this:
I had a customer just like your fabricated lady, except she had a glass leg and two wooden eyes.
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The scary part is this:
I had a customer just like your fabricated lady, except she had a glass leg and two wooden eyes.
Glass in a hot tub? She shoulda gone acrylic. :)
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Prior to participating on this forum, I heard a little about Jimmy, He must be a piece of work.
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He is a piece of work. He has terrible tact and that hurts him. But, don't let all these full foam "industry standard" dealers on this board paint him the fool. He brings up good points that threaten these guys' very existence. It's too bad he spends more time dissing the comp than extolling his product cuz negative campaigning usually turns people off. Just look at the upcoming election. I can't stand either one of them.
But then again, if his competition is overcharging for poorly/cheaply made spas, I can somewhat understand his indignation.
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Absolutly true Rick he has some great ideas that are sold the worst way possible. He's got a bad attitude and belittles all those that question the superiority of his ideas as being good but not better. What's funny is what I have done to my tub is an improvement over some of his ideas, yet to him I am an idiot. Because it didn't take me years and years to figure it out his attitude towards me is deplorable. PR skills are not his strong point unless you are sold and goo-goo over his concept.
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But then again, if his competition is overcharging for poorly/cheaply made spas, I can somewhat understand his indignation.
There are those who would argue that Jim overcharges for mediocre spas.
Brewman
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Jims customer with the wooden leg........wouldn't that be a floating issue? And 2,sounds like a liability waiting to happen to Jim,unless he has the lady use a sealer or wrap it prior to insertion. It's also possible that Jim has some used pressure treated scraps of lumber,that he could injinear for her.?.
I feel for the lady! Besides not being able to see the spa,what sold her on a CaVeN?
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There are those who would argue that Jim overcharges for mediocre spas.
Brewman
JA seems to hate HotSpring and several other brands vehemently. Now, his tubs have been around something like seven or eight years, so you would think that if, in fact, his spas are so superior, they would have driven us all out of business.
This is a free market: buyers seem to be speaking.
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Has anyone ever lost a sale to a Haven spa? I have never received a question regarding them in the showroom. I do get a lot of comparison questions regarding the brands that are sold in my area from local dealers.
However, I have received questions about them from consumers posting on different spa message boards. Does that count?
Just curious to everyone’s answers.
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In answer to the 'Have I lost a sale to Jimmy" question, I will say that while I have never lost a sale to a H&ven, I have lost sales to people who offer custom spas, though not very often. Perhaps a few a year.
There are many companies in Southern Cal which offer tubs made to order. I have had people come in and ask if I can add a jet or upsize a pump, and my answer is no. So they go to a company who may end up sounding just like JA, "We use the biggest and best parts, off the shelf for your convenience, and we'll put the jets right where you want them, and then deliver it to your home for less than HotSpring...
In my opinion, these guys are fine, and a nice part of the trade. They don't claim to be the best, they do offer something I don't - so I can't begrudge them. And when it's all said and done, the 'best' spa is one you buy.
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I'm not a dealer, but while spa shopping, I did ask several of the dealers in my area if they'd heard of Haven spas, and none had, including the local Phoenix dealer.
He couldn't possibly be a competitive threat to any major spa makers or dealers.
Yet he claims to have never lost a wet test against (fill in any spa model here).
I wondered how he could substantiate this claim, then it dawned on me. Most of his customers can't wet test, therefore the battle never took place, therefore he didn't loose.
Brewman
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As I'm sure he'll never post it and probably delete the entire thread on his forum to prevent his version of 'new math' from being exposed, here is a breif excerpt from an exchange we had over there.
Enjoy.
"A 6,000 Watt heater that is five hundred feet long with 1 miliwatt of heat per sq inch, puts out THE SAME EXACT HEAT ENERGY AS A 6,000 watt heater that is one inch long, with 6,000 watts of heat per inch. I believe that anyone in science can say the same thing. 6,000 Watts does equal 6,000 Watts, the last time I did the calculation!! HA! HA! " JA
"Lets make sence of this...
The 6kw heater would need to be measured in two dimensions -or square inches or square footage- In your attempted example it would need to be 250 sqft, NOT "500 feet long" to correctly calculate watt density."
With 6,000 square inches of heating element X 1 milliwatt= 6 watts. You meant watts, not milliwatts."
A 6kw heater with one square inch of surface (not one inch in length.) area would also have a watt density of 6,000 watts. Yes, 6,000 watts equals 6,000 watts."
But 6,000 watts does not equal the same surface temperature or operating temperature in each case and this is exactly what Ive been trying to point out."
Your first imaginary heater you could hold in your hand, the other imaginary heater, so hot as to burn through flesh and bone."
Anyone want to wager on just when they think I will get booted out of his forum?
Oh and Brewman- I did the same inquiry at the 2003 Aqua show, while talking to a Bullfrog rep he indicated that he followed the action (before the banning) on LIHT over at PoolNSpa- but had never run into anyone else who knew of him.
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You will get the boot from his "forum" as soon as he gets paranoind that the truth will come forth, and expose him. That's pretty much how he controls that part of his website, I'm guessing. Ever notice that 99% of the posts are his, he follows up his own replies with many more replies. If you remove his posts, and the 3 or 4 of his loyal minions, you have a couple of people who get thru the screening, only to be called idiots for having the nerve to disagree with the god of spas.
I'd be more curious to see what he's not letting get posted.
Brewman
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I've seen teh back and forth on this; Jim is getting pretty furious with you on the heater subject because you do not buy into his way of thinking (and are therefore an idiot). Unfortunately his followers will believe anything he says so you're wasting your breath in every way EXCEPT that what it does show clearly is Jim's angry side. That is one thing that he cannot hide no matter how closely he tries to guard that sales forum. It is one of his major failings and really exposes him for what he is more than anything else. Hopefully those who go to his site with some interest in what he's selling will realize this is the side they may see if things go wrong with their spa as Andy and Eric discovered:
http://www.selberg.org/homes/speed/spa.html
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. Ever notice that 99% of the posts are his,
Brewman
And he has to participate in every single thread. I first went to the forum to look around after hearing about him from others, like this forum, but wanted to look and judge for myself. I noticed you can not post a reply to one of his customers without Jim having something to add. It gives the whole fourm a real feel of controlled information.
If I had my own company and ran such a forum related to it, I would be active in answering questions, and occasional debates, but would keep a low key approach to it.
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What he calls his "Really Interesting Spa Forum" is merely his pulpit.
Brewman
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I got a good one going with him, but we shall soon see if he keeps my post's posting. His last word sydrone may take over soon. I have them all in word document form so I can get the last word on other forums if I need to. Hopefully he will keep posting them. In the mean time I am a real idiot in his eyes. But he really didn't want to make me look bad in front of my family and the world (like I give a rip) Please keep posting my responses JA it will make you look like a real man.
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At first I was going to thank you guys for pointing me to his site and giving me a good laugh! I'd never heard of him before.
Just spent 1/2 hour over there and was cracking up. He went into some big thing about my HotSpring being dangerous around kids. According to his post, a curious child might remove the filter cover, unscrew the 4 filter retainers, remove the 4 filters, and unscrew the filter standpipes.
Now that the child has totaly dismantled the filter area they might happen to turn on the jets. . .Again, since kids are basically curious "they might submerge their head in the dismantled filter compartment to get a better look at the vortex." If in addition to being curious, they also happen to have long hair, it might get sucked into the dismantled filter openings and they will be killed.)
What is most bizarre to me is that he seems to be completely serious. I tried reading more of his posts but it was starting to make my head hurt.
-owner of a HotSpring death trap,
Stars
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Be careful. You also have a potential fire hazzard, to boot. And lest we not forget that JA himself was the one who got HS kicked out of being UL listed.
He hates most other spa brands, except for Emerald and Phoenix, but he hates HS the most. And he lets anyone who can't cover their ears in time hear it over and over and over.......
Brewman
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The fact that he likes Emerald, should this be a red flag to people? I'm only asking because I'm interested in Emerald.
You know birds of a feather...
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According to his post, a curious child might remove the filter cover, unscrew the 4 filter retainers, remove the 4 filters, and unscrew the filter standpipes.
Nope. Can't happen. The kids would have to turn the standpipes counterclockwise. Now as you know, kids today use digital clocks and watches, so they don't know which way 'clockwise' is.
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LOL!!! Now THAT was good! I got a chuckle reading the Haven rant. But your response gave me a real belly laugh.
Thank You!
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The fact that he likes Emerald, should this be a red flag to people? I'm only asking because I'm interested in Emerald.
You know birds of a feather...
I wouldn't discount Emerald because of that.
Brewman
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No the people I met that sell Emerald were nice people. Not jerks like JA. So in my book they make a fine tub.