Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jenn on September 14, 2004, 10:14:45 pm
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Our Marquis 530 ("Everyday tub") was delivered today. My husband mentioned some scratches he noticed, so I went to take a look. They were pretty major scratches in my opinion. When we purchased the tub, we were told that it was brand new, had been on display on the floor of another store, but not filled. Maybe that was a mistake? We decided we would talk with the salesperson about it since the delivery guys didn't have any advice regarding the scratches.
I filled the tub, anxiously awaiting this evening when we could have our first soak. After it was filled, we noticed a puddle of water forming underneath. We thought it just might be from some sloshing (we hadn't been in the tub yet because our electician flaked but that's another issue). We wiped it up, and a few moments later the puddle formed again. We called the dealer and a service tech is coming on Thursday.
The service manager said it could be a minor problem causing the leak. We checked the drain and all seemed to be solid there, so what else could it be?
My questions are:
1. Would my expectation to not have visible scratches on the tub be reasonable? We didn't receive any sort of discount for it being a model that was on the floor.
2. Is there a method to remove scratches?
3. The leak...are there situations where a leak would be considered minor?
4. I'm starting to feel like we should request a full replacement. The tub hasn't been used by us yet, and I think it should be perfect when we receive it....is this reasonable?
Thanks for any advice you might have!!!
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I would give the dealer a chance to fix the problem...what color is it...The scathes are something that maybe should have been noted at time of sale......I would suggest that you give the your dealer an opportunity to resolve your problem.....
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Where are the scratches? The leak is probably the bleed line. If the scratches are in the DuraWood that is easily replaceable. I don't know if I would ask for a new tub yet but I would ask for concessions and I don't think you should have to wait until Thursday to get up and running!
P/M me with a private message as to who your dealer is and where you live and I will intervene where I can.
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I don't care how busy they are, they should be making your service call a P R I O R I T Y!
Issues on delivery take first in line IMO! People take hours, days and sometimes weeks and months to purchase a spa with the understanding that they have just made a great purchase with the right dealer. All of that goes out the window if you're left hanging with immediate problems. If they're not going to prove to you why you chose them, demand it! Wed AM and no later. Nobody is THAT busy that they can't look after you right away. I would have expected someone there that afternoon myself... ???
Steve
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I should have been clearer on my flaky electrician...he came to do the hook-up but turned out he couldn't do the work and needed to find an actual electrician (the orginal one is an acquaintance - our fault). So when I spoke to the service manager he felt they would be able to better diagnose the leak problem if the could fully test the tub.....thus the wait until Thursday for the service call!
To Mendocino: not sure of the correct name of the color but its bronze? Also, we never saw the actual tub before purchase so we didn't know about the scratches. Probably our fault, but it was in a store quite some distance from us. I would certainly not be worried about tiny scratches, but these seemed more than that.
To Stuart: thanks for the offer to intervene. I'll get in touch with you after we find out what's going on on Thursday (if necessary!).
To Steve: I think they would have come out today if the power was hooked up, for sure tomorrow....
Thanks all for your input. I'll let you know what happens!
Jenn
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I agree with Steve. When I use to work on office equipment, shortly after a machine was delivered we had a service tech out there to make sure it was 100% up and running before handing it over to the customer.
IMO they should have been out that day. Give them a chance though
r100rs
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I just wanted to update the situation...especially since I found this forum so valuable, I would want anyone considering a Marquis to read the resolution to the problems we encountered.
The service tech came out and replaced the drain valve thinking that would solve the problem. Once we got our electrical upgrade done and we refilled the tub the leak was still there :(. Fast-forward to yesterday, and the service tech came out again. He wasn't able to find the source of the leak and said the service manager would be calling me.
Resolution: We're getting a brand new tub! I didn't ask for one....(although I would have) it was offered. In the meantime, we're able to use the existing tub until the replacement arrives.
I think anyone considering a Marquis tub should know that the service I've experienced has been top knotch! The problems were addressed in a very professional manner and in my opinion, quickly resolved. Granted, this was all at the dealer level, but I believe the dealer can only be that strong if the manufacturer backs them up.
We love the tub!!!
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The dealer is way more important in this regard than the factory. It's the dealer who dispatches service techs, and otherwise supports the customers.
The factory is there more to support the dealers, in my opinion.
Glad yours is treating you right.
Brewman
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Excellent news jenn!
And I second your opinion about Marquis as a manufacturer. After the dealer I originally purchased my Marquis tub from turned into Mr Hyde and screwed me - Marquis was there to do what they could to assist in resolution!
Happy soaking!
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Hi Jenn:
Glad to hear your problem worked out, sounds like the dealer did the RIGHT thing.
To everyone else reading this thread or prospective buyers, I've been participating in this forum for more than a month now and reading many of the posts associated with "problems" concerning new tubs.
Generally, I don't add to these discussions because the guys that sell tubs can address this stuff better. I'm also not a sales person, tech or "dealer" and I don’t consider myself an “expert” (WELL, maybe an “expert” USER...)
BUT, I gotta tell ya, I've owned an Artesian Spa for almost 5 years and the only thing I've ever had to do was add water and chemicals. I had one minor issue with a valve controlling flow through the ozenator, but it was immediately fixed by the dealer. That’s it, NOTHING else.
I’ve read a number of posts about "problems" after initial install. Many of the dealers and spa guys here offer good advice and genuinely seem interested in helping. A few quibble about brands, but I can live with that. BUT, that said, it seems that most people on this forum talk about or purchase 7 brands of tubs and, with the exception of just a few of these brands, many new buyers have "problems."
Respectfully guys, this DON'T cut it! The product someone just paid $8,000 to $10,000 for won't get any better than the day it rolled off the line. New buyers SHOULDN’T have to deal with “problems.” Why settle for this?
I can only speak about my personal experience with Artesian Spas and my local dealer, so I don't know what others have encountered. I do know that I would NEVER have put up with the problems that some posters have mentioned. Based on what I've read, it looks like I made good choice in purchasing a tub (and NO, I'm not trying to congratulate myself publicly).
My point is that OTHER spa companies (besides the ones that are always mentioned here) make GOOD products. If the "Fords" and 'Chevys" are breaking down or not even working correctly when started the first time, isn't it time to consider something else?
Honda and Toyota taught this lesson to Detroit a few years back. Maybe some other companies should have been taking notes?
Food for thought...
Drewski
:-/
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Drewski,
You make an interesting point.....but you sorta answer it yourself.....If you are right and there are say 7 tubs mainly discussed here...well than if there ever is an issue you will here about them.....however with hundreds if not thousands of those spas sold....you can see from the posts here...that very rarely is there a problem.....
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Most people rate reliability based on % of product out there that has some kind of problem, not on raw numbers. But that's because people who do that are good at math. ;)
My Hot Springs has worked flawlessly since delivery, albeit only several months now. My friends Sundance Cameo has worked flawlessly for 2 years, the only damage done was when the installers scraped the bottom plastic part.
The problem is Hot Springs, Sundance, and others sell WAY WAY WAY more hot tubs than Artesian so simple numbers,especially just the few dozen, tops, you read about on these sites, is not enough information to draw ANY kind of meaningful conclusion. And most people know that.
Artesian's failure rate could be 200 times worse than the Marquis failure rate. But if you have 2 people, one who owns Artesian and one who owns Marquis, and neither had ever had a problem, you couldn't draw any conclusion from that. Worse, if the Artesian customer never had a problem and the Marquis customer did, you could infer the opposite regarding quality!
Which would be a prime example of sacrificing scientific rigor in favor of confirmational bias.
It sounds like Jenn's tub was knocked around a bit, perhaps some abuse happened which explains the leak.
Ed
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I completely agree that conclusions based on only a few anecdotes are meaningless. BUT consider something for a minute.
It's undoubtedly true that top manufacturers sell thousands of tubs. But how many of those people come to this forum? I would argue that only a small portion actually participate (look at the user stats). However, it seems that more than just a few of these individuals DO have problems. Kinda makes you wonder about how many problems the people who are NOT participating have? Hmmm, the term "representative sample" comes to mind....
Regardless of how we debate this, the fact remains that repetitive, similar and annoying problems keep popping up in this forum -- usually immediately after delivery -- and often with the same models. Is this because such tubs have high sales rates and failures are actually less than 1%? Maybe. But, then again, maybe not.
Does Artesian or any other “non-discount” brand experience similar problems? Probably, BUT, I haven't read about them here -- ESPECIALLY leaks in new tubs just after setting them up.
Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying Artesian or any other brand is better. In fact, unless Artesian comes up with a 10x8 before I buy again, I'll probably switch brands. What I AM saying is that repetitive annoying "problems" that are easily controlled for and fixed are unacceptable.
Such experiences WILL impact my future purchasing decisions.
In my opinion, quality control needs to be IMPROVED.
Thanks for the responses – I enjoy lively discussion!
Drewski
8)
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I liked your response Ed. It makes sense.
I have had my Marquis for 7 years now and haven't had one service call. As a dealer, I have hundreds of customers and the percentages are very high that have no problems for many years. There are a few that do need service and we are quick to respond to their needs. How can a spa leak or have other problems right out of the gate? Lots of possibilities. People make the spas and people aren't perfect. Loaded on a truck with a forklift, driven over rough interstates and off loaded with a forklift. Stored and then loaded on a trailer and driven to the customers home. I wish that problems didn't exist, it would save me payroll dollars and make my life easier. The challenge is to know that service will eventually be needed and to be prepared with qualifid service techs and employees that care about customers. Also, develop business relationships with spa manufaturers that are committed to do their best in product quality and customer service.
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Wow, this topic took on a life of its own!
I really and truly thought it was important to post the resolution to the problem we had because so many times you hear only about the problems and not the solutions! This is especially important for the folks that are shopping around and using this forum. As such, I think its not fair to hear only the bad things about a particular brand....
I will say that the people I spoke with at this particular Marquis dealer seemed truly shocked that we had a leak, and they took steps to resolve it quickly. In my mind, this obviously is due in part to the quality manufacturing that Marquis does. I agree with the person that stated spas are built by people and there is the potential for error. I think that what happened with our tub was the exception to the high quailty of Marquis. Thus, the brand new replacement tub we are receiving.
Again, to anyone researching purchases, I would highly recommend a Marquis (not that I have experience with other brands though... :))
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Jenn,
You have to mention the dealership by name and give them some free advertising for this. :)
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Stuart -
As soon as my replacement tub is delivered I will mention the name of the dealer!!!
;)
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It's undoubtedly true that top manufacturers sell thousands of tubs. But how many of those people come to this forum? I would argue that only a small portion actually participate (look at the user stats). However, it seems that more than just a few of these individuals DO have problems. Kinda makes you wonder about how many problems the people who are NOT participating have? Hmmm, the term "representative sample" comes to mind....
No no no, Drewski, part of what I do is statistical sampling. The analysis is not correct. People come to forums, internet searches, and places when they have a problem.
When you fill in survery cards, for example, if someone does NOT fill in a survey card you assume they had a pleasant experience. People only fill out cards if their experience was better than expected or worse than expected.
Who are on these forums?
- People generally interested in hot tubs (dealers and dorks like me)
- People looking to buy a hot tub (and who, after purchase, stick with it, thus also becoming hot tub dorks like me)
- People who have problems and want to ask advice on how to deal with a problem brand or a problem dealer.
You must factor in intent. The concept that forums are a random sample is just not correct.
-Ed
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How can a spa leak or have other problems right out of the gate? Lots of possibilities. People make the spas and people aren't perfect. Loaded on a truck with a forklift, driven over rough interstates and off loaded with a forklift. Stored and then loaded on a trailer and driven to the customers home.
Other variables for sure! Reminds me once we delivered a rack of equipment to a customer and it didn't work. Upon investigation we found a SHOEPRINT on the back of our backplane. Someone either stepped on (or kicked) our backplane!
Clearly, we should have dropped that backplane manufacturer... ::)
-Ed
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Hi Ed:
The term "representative sample" was used only jokingly, clearly "case study" could only be used in this forum.
However, I'd take issue with assuming that people with complaints are more common here than the average buyer. Jenn (Hi, Jenn, if you're still reading this!) first posted on September 6th, asking advice about different tubs. She and her husband purchased shortly after and took delivery on the 14th. Jenn didn't have complaints before coming to the forum, she had problems AFTER.
I've also noted a number of other posters who experienced similar issues after taking delivery on a tub, who also started in this forum FIRST and then had problems.
Again, I'll go back to my original point. I think too many "problems" are cropping up with brand new tubs costing nearly $10,000.
Change the venue. If you went and purchased a car, took it home and found oil or coolant on the ground leaking from it the next day, would you be happy if the dealer said "don't worry, we can fix that." "After all, people make cars and they aren't perfect." "Besides, you drove it home over that rough Interstate, and it could have been damaged." Or, say the speedometer or electronics control package didn't work. Maybe the heater only blew cold air. I don't think too many consumers would be happy about any of these things, regardless of how many well intentioned explanations the dealer who sold them the vehicle provided.
CONSUMER demand drives the market. Sooner or later, companies that make products with “problems” start losing market share, especially if competing products are made better and price comparable.
Are there good examples of companies with “problems” commonly found in the spa industry? Well, just search “Thermospas” on this forum and you will have the answer to that. I seem to remember websites put up by Termospas buyers that were, well let’s just say, “irate.” It was also interesting to see how shortly after this, Thermospas started paying attention (at least in some cases) to consumer issues.
I’m not busting on any particular dealer or manufacturer out there, BUT, consumers need to have voice and should NOT be settling for “less than perfect.” The products we buy lose value immediately after delivery and will never be in better condition than when "new."
I’m glad Jenn got a new tub. It was the right move on her part and on the part of a perceptive dealer.
In any case, thanks for the good discussion. Don’t take my meaning as anger, it’s only passion.
Peace and Hot Water...
Andy
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Drewski,
We are just going to have to disagree here. But I propose an exercise for you:
Go to consumer reports (or a similar rating agency) and pick an appliance category (since we are engaging in "proof by analogy"). Now, look up the manufacturer failure rate on rated appliances in that category. Then, pick the manufacturer with the best quality record.
Now, search internet forums for that applicance manufacturer and you will find many lists of people complaining about lemons in that manufacturer, even though that manufacturer, according to that ratings agency, has the least number of recalls or quality problems.
If you do not believe that people congregate to complain more than they congregate to praise then we will just have to disagree.
If you feel that the dealers, in this case Marquis, who posted and say that leaks are horridly rare are incorrect based on the couple of posts you have read here and, presumably, elsewhere, then we will have to disagree.
What I am saying to you is that you do not have the information to form opinions on tub quality. Obviously, you feel that you do have enough information and on that we will also just disagree.
But since we only need to rely on 1 post to make assumptions on a brand, here is one from:
http://www.poolsearch.com/forum/read.php?f=8&i=12904&t=636
"I also agree that Artesian has a history of leaks. We have a dove canyon and have had numerous problems from the get go... we still have it, but i can tell you that the 8000 we paid was way too much!! I wouldn't recommend an artesian."
Searching here I found that someone feels that Artesian has a failure rate of 1.4%, someone else has been waiting 9 weeks for one from the factory when they said it should take 4 weeks, and that, in general, there is very little info about them at all because they are a small manufacturer.
-Ed