Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: zzaphod42 on September 22, 2004, 01:37:06 pm
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I have an interesting situation that I am sure has happened to others before:
A customer who bought a tub from us a year ago came in to tell me that she can't use her hot tub anymore. She breaks out in a rash after being in the tub, and after a number of questions on my part, she stated that it was due to eczema, which she has never had before. (Apparently her whole family breaks out)
I had to ask these questions because after purchasing the tub, she has not bought any product from us, since she was already dealing with another company for her pool for years. She claims that the chemicals have ALWAYS been in perfect range, and the tub has been VERY well taken care of. I have no idea if this is truly the case since she has never had her water tested here.
I actually had to go through the store files to find out who this person was, since I had never met her before. And, apparently with the exception of her, I know all of my customers by face/name and hot tub they purchased.
Apparently her doctor is the one who told her it was eczema, and that hot tubs are awful horrible things that cause an array of problems. (Yes I am paraphrasing) I find that interesting since I have a few doctors as customers.
I have had some (not very many) customers who reacted negatively to either bromine or chlorine and the solution has always been to try them on the other one. However, she has tried both chlorine and bromine to no avail.
The first thing I am trying to figure out is how likely/possible is it that someone who has never had eczema before can react as severly as this woman claims?
Secondly if anyone has had this happen to them, how did they resolve the situation?
I am baffled by this as I have some customers who have sensitive skin normally, who are able to use the hot tub. Not to mention that she uses a pool without any problems, and she (hopefully) uses a shower without any problems. ??? ??? ???
Any and all suggestions/recommendations would be appreciated.
Joe
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We have a lot of skin issues in our family. There is a history of eczema and myself and our kids suffer from it. We've only had our tub about 6 weeks and we have not seen any adverse affects on our skin. We typically do take the kids from the hot tub and put them directly in the bath so that may be helping. This is something that we were worried about before we got our tub but it hasn't been an issue at all. In our case, we were also worried as many people have said that bromine is hard on your skin. We went with Bromine as that is what our dealer suggested and it hasn't bothered us a bit.
I know that this isn't really an answer to your question but wanted to at least let you know that there are eczema sufferers out there living happily with their hot tubs. :)
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it's not eczema, she isn't shocking her spa often enough, or she hasn't changed her water on a regular basis. It's bacteria from high use. I hear this from time to time from someof our customers. In an EXTREME and very rare situation there are individuals who are extremely skin sensitive. Most of the timwe it is a combination of lack of shock, and poor water chemistry. If she's using bromine I'd be concerned b/c bromine tends to bring the pH and Alk down of the water if it isn't checked on a regular basis. And low pH and alkalinity can cause skin and eye irritation.
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I wanted to echo bumer4nc's post.
I have had sensitive skin issues for my entire life. My mother couldn't wash me with anything but Ivory soap for years, and we had to use Ivory to wash clothes because I would break out if you looked at me wrong.
I also have eczema, which I was diagnosed a few years before I got my tub. Sometimes, if I have the heat up a little too high, I will break out with a few spots, but for the most part, I have no problems. Usually it is the heat that causes the flare, not the tub itself. Or at least, this has been my experience.
Roger (if I remember right) also has suffered from this. Maybe he will chime in here.
I use chlorine, by the way. I don't know what to say about this being a customer. Good luck!!!
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Hi
We are a Spa dealer in the UK and I have resolved this problem with several customers.
The answer is simply to use an enzyme cleaner which will enable you to use your tub chlorine free .... We use EcoOne and it works !
Yes you do still need to use diclor for the inital shock cleaning and then a very small addition after each use , but then when you use your tub the next day the chlorine has dispersed and you still have a beautifully clean tub - chemical free !
This is probably not a great idea if you are sharing with the neighbourhood but if its just family / husband and wife then at least you can use your spa ...
If friends come round just add a little diclor and miss out that day !
Hope this helps ....
;)
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Sounds to me like the family has contracted pseudomonis (someone plz correct my spelling if it is wrong). This condition is an infection of the hair follicle that results from bathing in spas with inadequate sanitizer. In my experience this condition only affects one person in a family(usually one of the adults.)
It may also be chloramine build up as someone else has suggested. I have seen chloramine problems that do not go away even with regular shocking because the spa owner does not leave the cover off long enough to allow the nitrate gases to escape.
HTMan
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Sounds to me like the family has contracted pseudomonis (someone plz correct my spelling if it is wrong). This condition is an infection of the hair follicle that results from bathing in spas with inadequate sanitizer. In my experience this condition only affects one person in a family(usually one of the adults.)
It may also be chloramine build up as someone else has suggested. I have seen chloramine problems that do not go away even with regular shocking because the spa owner does not leave the cover off long enough to allow the nitrate gases to escape.
HTMan
Good post HTM! I would agree with the pseudomonis! Sometimes it hangs in a spa for months if you don't do a "chemical flush" and get it out. If the whole family is being effected that is more than likely the reason, either way it's a water quality issue or it would not be effecting several people in the same spa.
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Hi
We are a Spa dealer in the UK and I have resolved this problem with several customers.
The answer is simply to use an enzyme cleaner which will enable you to use your tub chlorine free .... We use EcoOne and it works !
Yes you do still need to use diclor for the inital shock cleaning and then a very small addition after each use , but then when you use your tub the next day the chlorine has dispersed and you still have a beautifully clean tub - chemical free !
This is probably not a great idea if you are sharing with the neighbourhood but if its just family / husband and wife then at least you can use your spa ...
If friends come round just add a little diclor and miss out that day !
Hope this helps ....
;)
Thanks Pooldevil, but we only offer chlorine/bromine systems in our stores here, and I feel better sticking with them. They have worked very well for us so far, and I would like to believe that if the woman in question had been dealing with us all along there wouldn't be a problem.
Joe
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Thanks bulmer and Lori, I appreciate the support. :)
I agree with everyone that it is probably a water chemistry issue. I just wish that the customer had been dealing with me to begin with! The customer is upset with owning a Beachcomber because of the water chemistry "advise" given to her by a competitor.
I can't understand why somebody would be confident/comfortable enough to drop $10000 on a hot tub, but go somewhere else for information on how to maintain it. ???
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My 11 yr old son has had Eczema since Day 1. There is no winning solution and only 1 medication that even does any good for him (though it isn’t a solution by any means anyone having it should look into Elocon). He does use the spa time and again and I've always used the same regime, which is to shock weekly (or so) and add dichlor after each use knowing it'll do the job and dissipate so that the chlorine level will be low for the next soak. IMO, our spa is no different than him taking a hot bath. The only issue is a spa or a hot bath is not the best thing for someone with eczema even if you add therapy lotion afterward but it isn't going to go away anyhow so we're certainly going to let him continue to use it. Is this person trying to say that the spa has CAUSED her to have eczema or that it has worsened the eczema she already had?
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Hey t.u.o.
Elocon is what I use!!! Good stuff!!!
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Is this person trying to say that the spa has CAUSED her to have eczema or that it has worsened the eczema she already had?
The woman is claiming that she has never had eczema before, but that the tub now causes eczema to flare up whenever she uses it, and the skin problem lasts for at least two months afterwards.
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Please excuse my bluntness here, but the only thing dumber than trying to make a diagnosis from a 3 sentence post to a message board, is actually acting on that diagnosis.
Personally, I'd like to know that the person diagnosing me is an actual educated, trained and licensed doctor, specializing in the affliction that is able to provide the necessary testing required to come to a conclusion..... either that, or hold a spoon over a dead chicken, if it swings north to south the ailment is....... oh, forget it
My first 18 years in this business I only came across one person that was actually allergic to chlorine, or had ANY reaction caused by other than bacterial. With the advent of the internet though, many more people with these type of problems are seeking info, so they tend to show up more. Think about it, you shower everyday (well most of us do daily) in chlorinated water (some don't). That water tends to be HOTTER than spa water and doesn't cause a problem.
All that said :1: , my bet is it's not eczema (NO, I'm not a doctor, I'm making an experienced guess for all the traffic specific to this on my message board)). There are a LARGE number of things that can cause a "rash", or what someone might refer to as a rash, that they may ASSUME is caused by a spa. One of the keys here is that the entire family has this breakout. mom and the kids maybe eczema, dad and the kids, ok it's possibly eczema. But mom, dad and the kids????? no, I don't think so (think of the heredity aspect)....... though it's possible.
Grovers disease had symptoms similar to eczema, but is virtually unheard of in children.
A reaction to chemicals is "possible", but it could just as well be the pH increaser or MPS as the chlorine. HOWEVER, again, since the entire family has it, I highly doubt it's a chemical reaction.
It is possible to have very mild eczema but never notice any of the symptoms (my son is an example). Soaking in hot water draws oils and moisture from your skin and can exacerbate eczema.
Doctors............... sheesh.... tell them you have a rash. they ask if you have a hot tub. you say yes, and they tell you it's from the tub. case closed........ lazy sons of bi**es.
Ask her if she actually SAW the doctor AND if he actually did a culture. He SHOULD have ran cultures on at LEAST 2 of the family members with the affliction. If her doctor didn't do this, I'd suggest finding a new doctor that isn't lazy, actually gives a d#mn and cares about people (can ya tell I don't like doctors much :-) )
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Please excuse my bluntness here, but the only thing dumber than trying to make a diagnosis from a 3 sentence post to a message board, is actually acting on that diagnosis.
Personally, I'd like to know that the person diagnosing me is an actual educated, trained and licensed doctor, specializing in the affliction that is able to provide the necessary testing required to come to a conclusion..... either that, or hold a spoon over a dead chicken, if it swings north to south the ailment is....... oh, forget it
I am sensing that something about this thread rubbed you the wrong way ;)
It may disturb you to know that we are all guilty of trying to diagnose a variety of problems on this (and your) site with limited information. :o
In posting the situation, and questions as I did, I wanted to simply get a sense of how likely the woman's claims were. The reason behind everything is she wants to get rid of the tub and would prefer us to take it off her hands. Since I won't be the one making any decision on the customer, anything posted will not affect the outcome.
Does that make you feel a little better Doc :)
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I also feel many doctors do not understand hot tubs. I should have qualified my statements with: "make these suggections to the doctor as possible explainations"
I am not a doctor. Nor am I as experienced as Dr.Spa. What I can tell you though is that before this store opened 7 years ago, doctors around this city had no idea what pseudomonis was. They learned about it because our SpaGuard rep told us, we told the customer, the customer told the doctor, the doctor looked it up and knew what to do and how to diagnose it next time.
Just my 2 cents
HTMan
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You might want to refer this person to the Eco One product. It contains coconut oils that leave your skin feeling soft.
The way it makes your water feel is unlike any other treatment i have tried.
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I am sensing that something about this thread rubbed you the wrong way ;)
naaaaa, it's more like the preverbial straw. When I go to a doctor (has to be either a compound fracture or a bleeding that pumping out :-) ) I know he's got a college degree, plus med school, plus internship..... AND I still get a second opinion. WHY would anyone ask and EXPECT to get medical help on a message board? ESPECIALLY one that's NOT medical related? And yet, they keep coming, and TAKING this "blind" advise. Perhaps the person that responds is a medical doctor with 40 years experience, perhaps their a serial killer possing as a medical expert............. SHOW ME THE SHEEP SKIN AND A COPY OF THEIR MALPRACTICE INSURANCE.
When I was 15 and got my first car, most repairs were done through trial and error..... car wont start? must be the alternater, lets replace it.. hmmmmmm, still wont start....... lets replace the battery cables....... ok, we'll try a new battery........ hey! that worked! what do you mean you can jump start the car and the battery will "charge up?????
It's one thing to lean by trail and error on on a car, it's another to to learn on your own body.
Have yyou noticed how I usually leave those alone, or refer them to my FAQ where it says;
"The first thing you should do is see a Doctor. Rashes can be caused by many things from as simple as a reaction to the hot water (dry skin), to a reaction to some chemical you are using, to bacteria. Ultimately self diagnosis will only lengthen the amount of time that you can't enjoy your spa.
Looking at some of these;
Soaking in hot water will dry out your skin and exacerbate any sensitivity you may have already had to dry skin. Putting on lotion after use is the best defense.
Reaction to chemicals. There are many forms of sanitizing methods used for hot tubs. It is not uncommon for someones skin to react to one of these chemicals. Minimizing, or changing, the chemicals you are using could help with a skin reaction. Things like Nature2 and the Natural are additives that allow you minimize sanitizer use (but not eliminate). A comparison, and list, of sanitizing methods can be found here
Finally bacteria growth. If sanitization levels are not kept to the proper levels bacteria can set up shop in your hot tub. This seems to be most common with new spa owners. Either it comes from stagnant water in the pipes after the dealer tested the spa or just because the new spa owner hasn't mastered the art of sanitization yet. The most common bacteria issue is Pseudomonas. It is often confused with bug bites (often complaints are received that a hotel has "bed bugs"), chicken pox, and other types of rashes. It can be, but rarely is, much more serious including severe rashes requiring hospitalization, ear infections, urinary and vaginal infections, and probably most serious is pneumonia.
Rashes tend to appear in areas that are kept wet the longest. Bathing suit lines, underarms, and crotch area. A low immune system, from other things (fighting a cold, lack of sleep, etc) tend to make people more susceptible to contracting the rash. This can confuse diagnosis because people will say "there were 6 people in the spa and I was the only one to get it. It can't be a bacterial problem" As stated above, only a Dr can properly diagnose the cause of your rash."
It may disturb you to know that we are all guilty of trying to diagnose a variety of problems on this (and your) site with limited information. :o
naaaaa, it just gets my head shaking and wondering.
In posting the situation, and questions as I did, I wanted to simply get a sense of how likely the woman's claims were.
oops...... I'm sorry, I didn't read it that way. I"m not a doctor, I didn't examin her or culture the "rash", so I really don't know........ but from a laymans point of view? She's either mistaken or been missinformed.
The reason behind everything is she wants to get rid of the tub and would prefer us to take it off her hands. Since I won't be the one making any decision on the customer, anything posted will not affect the outcome.
Well.......... it seems to me that she chose to buy it, has never come to you for advise...... she owns it....... is she aware of eBay ;D
MY APOLOGIES TO ANYONE I may have angered or offended... I'm a wee bit stressed trying to gety ready for the Aqua Show that's comming up.......Usually I just keep my loud mouth shut........... feel free to FLAME ON
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naaaaa, it's more like the preverbial straw. When I go to a doctor (has to be either a compound fracture or a bleeding that pumping out ) I know he's got a college degree, plus med school, plus internship..... AND I still get a second opinion. WHY would anyone ask and EXPECT to get medical help on a message board? ESPECIALLY one that's NOT medical related? And yet, they keep coming, and TAKING this "blind" advise. Perhaps the person that responds is a medical doctor with 40 years experience, perhaps their a serial killer possing as a medical expert............. SHOW ME THE SHEEP SKIN AND A COPY OF THEIR MALPRACTICE INSURANCE.
When I was 15 and got my first car, most repairs were done through trial and error..... car wont start? must be the alternater, lets replace it.. hmmmmmm, still wont start....... lets replace the battery cables....... ok, we'll try a new battery........ hey! that worked! what do you mean you can jump start the car and the battery will "charge up??
and you wonder why they call a Doctors business a "Practice"! ;)