Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: webber233 on September 03, 2004, 09:46:41 am
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Well, after 6 weeks of researching, wet testing and following this forum, I am ready to make a final decision and have narrowed it down to 3 spas. Can you please tell me if any of these spas will be more energy efficient that the other, and which spa you would choose and for what reason. I live in Canada, so it gets pretty cold up here in the winters. Also, I have wet tested all three of them and they are all comfortable and the dealers are all pretty much equal.
Sundance Optima w/UV ozonator, stereo and pop up speakers, steps, LED light, circ pump, air blower, hydraulic cover lifter, cup holder, a couple of extras, delivery and setup and taxes included. (floor model)
Jacuzzi J-385 w/CD ozonator, stereo and pop up speakers, steps, hydraulic cover lifter, circ pump, LED light, delivery and setup and taxes included. (Brand New)
Beachcomber 750 w/UV ozonator, stereo and under the shell speakers, steps, regular cover lifter, LED light, garden light, air blower, hush pump, protec, delivery and setup and taxes included. (brand new)
They are all the same price out the door. I think the best value is the Jacuzzi, but it doesn't come with the air blower, but it does have the jets that blow air 50/50 with the water. In my wet test the Jacuzzi also seemed a lot less powerful jet wise than the Optima. It this true? And would that be a better thing in the long run? The dealer said that with the Jacuzzi jets you will be able to withstand them for longer periods of time, and they will be better for hydrotherapy. Anyone shed some light on this for us? I like the jetting concept of the Jacuzzi, but they did feel weak. Also, I liked the foot massage dome on the Optima. Didn't really get to try the foot massage on the Jacuzzi. Is it as good? Am I right in thinking that the Sundance and Jacuzzi are made with a better quality standard in mind than the Beachcomber? They both seem to have better filtration systems than the Beachcomber. Also..they all have basically the same features other than the Jacuzzi has a CD Ozonator. Is that a lot better than a UV ozonator?
Thanks,
Chris & Carrie
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Couple of things to consider when putting a Sundance against a Jacuzzi. First off is the filtration, the Sundance has better filtration then a Jacuzzi. . 1 micron filtration.
Next are the jets Jacuzzi does not have the feel of power as a Sundance will. You can always tune the seats in to "your comfort zone" gradually working it up to a deeper tissue massage. If the power is not there your peaked out at what might not be deep enough tissue therapy that you so desire. I'd say it's better to get a little to much rather then never have quite enough. Take note the jets in The Optima are bearingless.
Aromatherapy, some people like it other can do with out, The same goes for water falls. It's all personal preference.
You should wet test again and decide from there which tub will be better for you. As well as how you feel toward the dealer you are making this purchase from.
See if they will upgrade the Ozonator in the Optima for you. Even if it cost you $100.00 to $200.00 to upgrade it will still outwiegh what you get over a Jacuzzi. These are just my thoughts I do sell Sundance and know the differences. I have yet to be convinced that you can compare a Jacuzzi to a Sundance, closer to a Sweetwater a lot closer.
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Tubber,
Where are you a Sundance Sales rep for?
Chris H
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Thanks for your opinion Tubber. One of the main things holding me back from the Optima is that it has been sitting in the showroom for 7-8 months. The other two are brand new in my choise of colour etc...the Sundance dealer says that he is giving me a way better deal because it is a showroom model. And if I were to order a new one then it would be about $1500-$2000 more in final price.
Other than the jetting, the Jacuzzi and the Sundance do seem very similar build wise. They are sister companies, right? Can anyone else help me out. Would like to get as much info as possible in regards to this decision.
Thanks,
Chris
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Sundance, no question.
IMO FWIW.
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Chris,
What are the extact options and price quoted to you? Does this include tax? What is your sales tax rate?
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Dazed,
Our tax rate is 15%, but they are all including taxes in their price. Here are the exact pricing and options on these tubs:
Optima (Floor model):
UV Ozonator
Steps
LED light
Stereo
Hydraulic Cover Lifter
Synthertic Skirt
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Cup holder
Aromatherapy beads
Delivery and setup
Price: $12000 (Canadian)
Jacuzzi Premium J-385 (Brand new):
CD Ozonator
Steps
LED light
Stereo
Synthertic Skirt
Hydraulic Cover Lifter
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Delivery and Setup
Price: $12200 (Canadian)
Beachcomber 750 (Brand New):
UV ozonator
Steps
Protec
Stereo
LED Light
Garden Lights
Cover lifter
Hush pump
Air Blower
Reflex Foot Massage
Cedar Skirt
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Price: $12000 (Canadian)
Thanks,
Chris.
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For what it's worth, eliminating the Beachcomber (I know little about them) I would be inclined to choose the Sundance over the Jacuzzi. I had quality issues with the Jacuzzi. The two models that were filled in the place that we wet tested always had one or two jets that had popped out sitting on the bottom. The switches that turned the water feature on and off seemed flimsy and might not stand the test of time and multiple use. The 50/50 air buttons scared me a bit as well as we were able to get them to stick a few times. There are others here who love their Jacuzzi and Beachcombers. They are definately on the good side of the list from what I can tell from reading these forums. The price for all that's included seems really good (especially including 15% sales/VAT tax. Good luck! :)
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Webber,
We are 3 weeks into our Jacuzzi J-375 and absolutely love it. After wet testing Hotsprings, Marquis, Coleman, and Jacuzzi, (didn't love the Sundance rep so kindof crossed it off the list), we went with the Jacuzzi even though I secretly worried about the power of the jets. Now that I am in it every day, I can't imagine having or ever wanting any more powerful jets. I think once you own a tub, you realize that it is sometimes just as enjoyable to sit with the colored light on, watch the stars, and not even have the pump running! That being said, we run the pumps with air and without air and I assure you, pressure is not a problem. As with any tub, you can adjust just about every jet there is and you soon learn which seat you prefer and what setting is right for you. I think in a wet test you want to really feel that deep massage and expect a really strong jet output but in reality, you can only stand that for a short period of time. I'm not sure how the foot layout is on the J-385 but we love the foot jets on ours. If you have divert all the water to the foot jets and add the air--trust me, it will blast your feet nearly out of the tub. We do that every now and then just for the fun of it!
I know people love their Sundance Optima's and I'm sure it is also great, but I couldn't be happier with our own choice. Good luck!
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Webber -
You said all three tubs were comfortable, but which did you enjoy more! They are not the same, so you must have liked one over the others.
Don't make your decision over which has the most features - waterfalls, aromatherapy, etc - those things won't matter for long. I personally can't smell the aromatherapy on my Optima. Waterfalls are also hard to appreciate with all the rest of the water movement in a hot tub.
I also looked at the Jacuzzi, Beachcomber and Sundance. We chose the Optima. I love the foot dome, the power, and the blower. You can also add air to the therapy jets seperately from the blower jets. We felt the Beachcomber was weak. The Jacuzzi was nice, but at about the same price, we went with the Sundance.
Also consider the reputation of the dealer you buy from--and the distance from your home. I've been bringing water samples in weekly, and the short 2 mile trip is no bother.
Ask for them to throw in some extra filters (one pleated, and a few micron filters on the Optima) Extra chemicals too. There is no more freebees once the deal is done!
Good luck!
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Difficult to say which one we enjoyed more. I'm 6'2" and my wife is 5'2". She liked the Optima more, where I felt it was a little too shallow, whereas the Jacuzzi was fine for me, but she was almost drowning in it. There was definitely more foot room in the jacuzzi too. I too think that the Optima might be the best tub out of the 3 and would likely have no hesitations if it were brand new, but since it is a floor model and 8 months old and has a UV ozonator, and not the colour I want, I'm having my doubts.
Thanks
Chris.
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Chris,
That is not really a good deal on that floor model Optima! I computed that is about 9200 US dollars.
Here is the deal I have on the table:
Cover
Chemicals
SunLift (6472-468)
SunGlow Multicolor Light (6472-646)
SunZone CD Special Edition (6472-845)
Exterior Perimeter Lights (6472-681)
Handi Step (6473-100)
MicroClean Filter (6540-501)
MicroClean Filter (6540-502)
Drink Tray (6472-540)
SunScents (6472-238)
for $7900 total US. This package is the same bsaically as yours except I have the exterior lights (invoice $200) and you have the stereo (invoice cant be more then $500). So, my package minus the lights and plus the stereo would be around $8200 US. So you can see I would pay 8200 for a NEW optima where you would be paying 9200 US.
So, your dealer is charging 1000 us over my current deal for a USED spa. Not a good deal!
d/c
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You can't really compare US pricing with Canadian pricing. It's not the same even if you do the current exchange rate. The markets are totally different...just like they are in several of the different states. In my area (Ontario, Canada) that is a great deal from what I have seen. Anyone else in the area want to comment on price?
Thanks,
Chris.
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I know my area is on the expensive side. I'm in New York. I paid $8,450 + tax for my Optima. It included all that you got plus a robe and spa vac. Dealer would not go any lower.
Like everyone says -- you will forget about the price once you take that first soak!
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Definitely a lot more to consider when comparing pricing in different countries.
Is Canada subject to any import and customs charges for US products?
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You can't really compare US pricing with Canadian pricing. It's not the same even if you do the current exchange rate. The markets are totally different...just like they are in several of the different states. In my area (Ontario, Canada) that is a great deal from what I have seen. Anyone else in the area want to comment on price?
Thanks,
Chris.
Good idea. How about someone who lives in Canada, and who actually BOUGHT a spa help out.
Brewman
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Chris,
How about driving to MI or WI and buying in the US? Do you have or have access to a flatbed truck? It may cost 100 to 200 to rent a truck for day. And a 100 to have a crane place it in the right spot. So, thats 300 extra to buy in the US.
So, the US price is 8200 plus the 300 extra is 8500. You would save 700 versus your 9200 US dollar price!
Your local SD dealer can help set up and provide service.
By the way, SD corp office told me in summary that your local SD dealer HAS to provide warranty service. He may or may not charge a trip fee.
Just imagine if you bought a spa in one state got a new job in another state or city and you moved out of the dealers territory, who is going to service you? I posed this to the SD corp office and they said the closest dealer has to service you. I just mention this help buyers who are pressured into buying from their local dealer after the dealer pressured him/her by saying he/she must buy from him to get service!
d/c
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And then there are the two Sundance dealers within 150 miles of me that refused to sell to me becase there was a Sundance dealer within 20 miles of me. Unfortunately, the closest dealer, whom I begged to sell me a spa, is a jerk. The other dealers claimed Sundance does not allow them to sell outside of their districts. And believe me, all I'm doing is reciting what I was told, FWIW. Otherwise, today I'd own a Cameo. Thank goodness I'm as pleased with the spa I bought as I would have been with the SD.
8)
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einstein-
You forgot to put in the cost of gasoline, and any expenses incurred whilst on the road.
So knock off a Benjamin for fuel on that $700 savings.
You seem pretty sure about truck rental rates in Canada. Any issues renting a vehicle in one country and taking into another? Add in another Benjamin for that. Now our total savings is down to $500. Less if you can't get a truck or crane that cheap in Canada.
Also- If you take delivery of the spa from a far away place, once they plop it on the truck it's your responsibility if ANYTHING happens in transit. Not to mention that if the LOCAL DEALER or whoever, delivers and installs the spa, any damage unloading or placing the spa is the responsibility of the dealer.
Drop that spa off the back of the flatbed by accident, and goodbye savings. No warranty on something like that.
Who knows how much that could end up costing.
Doesn't sound like a very wise use of time or money so far.
Not to mention whatever issues one may incur crossing into the USA with an empty truck, and coming back with a spa purchased outside the country. Gotta believe that the border patrol would want to see the paperwork on the spa.
Not sure you could include that $7500 spa in the duty free goods you'd be allowed to bring back. So don't forget to add the bribe to the border patrol into your list of expenses. So say a the import duty on that spa is about $500, maybe even more. So far, at best, you broke even. Accounting for the time spent on this misguided trip, you're behind.
Brewman
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Haha....thanks Brewman. I wasn't even going to offer a response to that option. Not even close to reasonable.
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Shooting fish in a barrel. Kinda slow around here today...............
Brewman
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See what I mean BREW
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I think once you own a tub, you realize that it is sometimes just as enjoyable to sit with the colored light on, watch the stars, and not even have the pump running!
I'm with Nubterd on this one.
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Well guys....I just got off the phone with my Sundance Dealer. He is giving me an amazing deal now. Instead of the floor model tub, he is giving me a brand new Optima with all the same options minues the cover lifter and upgrading it to the CD ozonator for $11, 500. I am going to go sign the papers and pick my colour after work! Thanks for all your help.
Chris.
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Congratulations. You will love that spa.
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Excellent! Let us know what colors you chose.
You are getting the color change LED lites? You won't regret spending the money on that.
Brewman
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The second happiest day to when they deliver the spa is the day you make the decision! Now you can relax and wait for your first soak. Congratulations--I'm sure you will love it!
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Webber,
Maybe you should hold off for a few more suggestions & negotiating advise from Dazed. He would have you still agonizing a year from now, while the rest of us are soaking... ;)
Kevin
who undoubtedly paid WAY too much for my tub, but am loving it!
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Maybe you should hold off for a few more suggestions & negotiating advise from Dazed. He would have you still agonizing a year from now, while the rest of us are soaking... ;)
I remeber 6 years ago when I first got in this industry and Dazed was early in his search for a spa. Its a good thing he's held off on his decision as they've improved spas greatly since then. When he is ready I imagine they'll be completely powered by hydrogen fuel cells and fully subsidized by the government so he won't have to worry about negotiating cost.
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I remeber 6 years ago when I first got in this industry and Dazed was early in his search for a spa.
Has he really been stalking this purchase for six years?
:o ??? ;D ::)
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Great job Webman!! Now the waiting begins :-[ But the payoff is sooo worth it!!
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Beth,
I will have to talk to pete because i was not offered the robe or the spa vacuum.
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Hey Webber,
STOP. DO NOT SIGN THOSE PAPERS!!!! (God I hope I'm not too late) ;D
Sundance over Beachcomber? ??? I don't get it? ???
Seriously though, after being in this industry for many many years, construction, insulation and overall quality is superior to the others you mentioned. IMO of course (for those of you ready to tear a strip out of me ;D )
I think you'll find the Beachcomber far higher quality with far better support from the company when you look further into it. Take your time and give yourself another chance at purchasing this spa. It's worth doing so.
The deal you were offered is fantastic and though I'm no longer with Beachcomber, I can assure you that you need to reconsider the total value. Where abouts in Ontario are you?
If I'm too late, go get your deposit back! If they won't give it to you, I'll start a fund here and we'll collect the money! ;D
The BC 750 is one of the alltime most comfortable, therapeutic and amazing spas money can buy. You'll never regret owning it!
As for Dazed... ohhhhhh nevermind... ::)
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply. What can you tell me that the Beachcomber has over the Sundance Optima? Especially enough to warrant the comments you made. You make it sound like Beachcomber is head and shoulders better than the Optima....whereas all I've heard from everyone else is that the Sundance is the top quality tub.
Thanks,
Chris.
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Hi Chris,
Understanding that most of my post was a bit tongue in cheek, I do strongly believe that the 750 along with the entire line of Beachcomber, is a very strong product. I don't believe any one spa is right for everyone, however, consumers don't get to see the inner workings of how Beachcomber operates and looks after their customers. Unfortunately, consumers are often led astray by misleading "sales tactics" without proof or merit. This one comment stands out from your posts that leads me to believe that you have been mislead.
Am I right in thinking that the Sundance and Jacuzzi are made with a better quality standard in mind than the Beachcomber? They both seem to have better filtration systems than the Beachcomber.
Neither comment is accurate and I would like to understand the reason you feel this way. One example is that the Beachcomber offers 24 hour filtration giving the user a tub that filters 42,000 gallons of water per day and is as quiet as a bee fart. ;D The tub will draw 0.6 amps during this so I have no idea how Sundance and Jacuzzi can improve upon this and offer better filtration?
"Top quality" is a subjective remark and there are many happy owners of all brands. If you do your research, you'll find many happy Beachcomber owners on this and all forums as well so deciding your purchase on that isn't realist in my opinion. Let me ask you what makes these tubs a better quality as you are the consumer that has come to this conclusion? Can I ask what area(s) of the spa is of lesser quality and why?
In all seriousness, I do wish you give your dealer another chance to show you the real advantages of this spa.
Steve
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is as quiet as a bee fart
How do you know this?! :o Tell me you haven't tested it out to get that info? What the heck are you guys doing up there in the north?
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Steve,
YOu say that the beachcomber has 24 hour filtration as though you don't realise that the Optima also has this with their circulation pump...and also betters it by having a micro filter that filters the water down to less than 1 micron. Both tubs seem to be terrific quality, but I just find that this filtration system, along with their titanium heating element and their, bearingless, stainless steel jets are a step above the beachcomber....whereas the beachcomber uses the standard waterways jets that seem cheap in comparison. Do you know a lot about the Optima, or are you just a big fan of the beachcomber? I welcome any input you or anyone else may have.
Thanks,
Chris.
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YOu say that the beachcomber has 24 hour filtration as though you don't realise that the Optima also has this with their circulation pump
I sure do realize it but what YOU might not is that Beachcomber uses a 48 frame motor. Sundance uses a tiny circ pump. It has to work much harder and therefore the life expectancy is lessened. The big kicker is that if their tiny circ pump fails, there's no serviceable parts and the entire pump will need replacing. Beachcomber's Hush pump is 100% serviceable where a pump seal that needs replacing 8 years from now will cost you $50.00 rather than the costs of total replacement. Find out the cost of that tiny unit..you'll be shocked! This 48 frame motor Beachcomber uses draws 0.6 amps and draws the equivalent of a light bulb to operate. This is what I mean by doing the homework and truly finding out the differences. That's not a shot at you Chris but it does point out that though there may be similarities, a closer comparison is demanded in most cases.
...and also betters it by having a micro filter that filters the water down to less than 1 micron.
Sales BS. Nothing more.
Both tubs seem to be terrific quality, but I just find that this filtration system, along with their titanium heating element and their, bearingless, stainless steel jets are a step above the beachcomber
Beachcomber used stainless steel jets too. 12 years ago. Are these the SS plates that fit over the plastic jets? Yes they are. As for the "stainless" part...they will be for the first 6 months. Once the SS caps fall off, you will be happy with your plastic jet bodies! ;)
....whereas the beachcomber uses the standard waterways jets that seem cheap in comparison.
They certainly aren't as flashy...you're right. But function is the key.
Do you know a lot about the Optima, or are you just a big fan of the beachcomber? I welcome any input you or anyone else may have.
I sold Beachcomber for many years in the largest Beachcomber store in the world. Now, that doesn't mean I know everything but I can tell you that you have missed some critical comparison shopping. Sundance is a decent unit. I don't like filtration systems that take up 2 seats myself but hey.... they're decent. I do know that the Beachcomber system is commercial rated and surpasses those guidelines. In a residential setting it's way more than enough AND SERVICEABLE IF NEED BE.
Steve
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How do you know this?! :o Tell me you haven't tested it out to get that info? What the heck are you guys doing up there in the north?
Well Stuart... we have designed a lab that records decible readings of sounds undetectable by the human ear. We first used my wife asking me to vacuum. Nope...nothing registered. ???
The bee fart was 0.00000124 and compared to Beachcomber's Hush pump that registered 0.00000123 decibles, I concidered it similar though obviously much more quiet based on our data. I didn't want to overstate it's superiority initially. Come to think of it, we sure could have used a Sundance filter after the horrible smell. I mean down to 1 micron could have been manageable I'm guessing! Sorry Chris...just teasing! ;D
Steve
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Just to pop in to the disagreement..
Steve said the 1 micron thing is sales BS, and I agree. Most filtration systems in the industry are pure sales BS.
Hot springs, for example, offers 100% no-bypass filtration. This means everything sucked in through a pump gets sucked through a filter first. BUT this means items can collect at the bottom of the tub since the intakes are all at the "surface" (I think up to 6" deep) skimmer.
Sundance (optima) has suction jets on the bottom which means while the surface skimmers have a 1 micro rating anything that sinks to the bottom and churned about does not necessarily get into the filter, but is sucked into the plumbing. Especially heavier items like grains of sand, pieces of dirt, etc...
The circulation pump on the optima (and my hot springs too) runs 24/7 but does not move anywhere NEAR the amount of water as in, say, the beachcomber (assuming Steve is telling the truth about gallons per day ;D ). I think my grandee moves the water 10 times a day, for a total of 4,500 gallons per day. That isn't considered enough agitation for perfect filtering. Try leaving an optima with the cover on for a week, no pumps running, and just the circulation pump, and see where that 1 micron filtration gets ya! I believe we call it the "green water feature".
There is no "silver bullet" filtration system that voids the need for regular hot tub maintenance. Be it Sundance's micro-filter, Hot Springs no-bypass filtration, or whatever beachcomber does.
Use all three tubs and do recommended maintenance and you'll have clean bubbly water even with such "vastly" superior/inferior filtration systems. To imply differently really *is* marketing BS.
The only thing that doesn't seem to be marketing BS is how much of a pain regular maintenance is. I am looking into the Hot Springs tri-x filters since they have more square footage and you clean them by running them through the dishwasher. Not sure what cleaning regimes are required for the optima versus the beachcomber, but I'd put the micrometer away and look there to see a tangible difference
-Ed
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Webber,
You are going to love the Optima. Ignore Steve. You have the facts right if you ask me. Both are excellent quality products. However, when you sit in each of these tubs you will notice a difference. Optima jet power is much stronger than Beachcomber. It just doesn't compare. Some say they don't want the high power jets. On the Optima you can turn them down as much or as little as you want. I like to turn the jets high on my lower back and feet for a while, then turn it down, or turn on the blower to relax. The foot dome is awesome. We found the beachcomber foot jet placement very awkward. Overalll, I think you will really enjoy the Optima. Don't let others cast doubts on your decision based on things like how much it costs to fix a pump when and if it breaks. Both are good companies and you shouldn't be dealing with issues like that for a very very long time. Who knows what a pump will cost in 15 years. The Optima will make you feel so good you won't care.
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Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that the Beachcomber jets seem to fall out their place quite easily. I had read about this when I was shopping, but also read that the problem was fixed. Well, when my husband wet tested the beachcomber 2004 model, every time he went to adjust a jet it came out in his hand.
Enjoy your Optima -
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"I sure do realize it but what YOU might not is that Beachcomber uses a 48 frame motor. Sundance uses a tiny circ pump. It has to work much harder and therefore the life expectancy is lessened. The big kicker is that if their tiny circ pump fails, there's no serviceable parts and the entire pump will need replacing. Beachcomber's Hush pump is 100% serviceable where a pump seal that needs replacing 8 years from now will cost you $50.00 rather than the costs of total replacement. Find out the cost of that tiny unit..you'll be shocked! This 48 frame motor Beachcomber uses draws 0.6 amps and draws the equivalent of a light bulb to operate. This is what I mean by doing the homework and truly finding out the differences. That's not a shot at you Chris but it does point out that though there may be similarities, a closer comparison is demanded in most cases.”
Steve you are correct that it will need replacing if it fails. Retail about $200.00 bucks. If you would do your homework, you would realize it does not fail very often. A heater fails much more often than a circ pump.
"...and also betters it by having a micro filter that filters the water down to less than 1 micron.
Sales BS. Nothing more.”
Umm… Steve it is not sales BS. It is certified by the National Sanitization Foundation (NSF) to filter down to 1-micron. It is the same filter cartridge used in two stage water purification systems used in your house. Hotspring also has their non-TriX cartridges certified by the NSF. They filter down the 18-micron. Any type of certification on your Beachcomber?
"Both tubs seem to be terrific quality, but I just find that this filtration system, along with their titanium heating element and their, bearingless, stainless steel jets are a step above the beachcomber
Beachcomber used stainless steel jets too. 12 years ago. Are these the SS plates that fit over the plastic jets? Yes they are. As for the "stainless" part...they will be for the first 6 months. Once the SS caps fall off, you will be happy with your plastic jet bodies!”
Actually, you are wrong. Ask an Optima owner for the last 2 years if the stainless coating is falling off.
I see you didn’t comment on the titanium heater (with unconditional warranty) or the bearlingless jets that Sundance offers (with a .03 failure rate since introduction). It isn’t like you not to have an opinion on something.
Also, there is no reason to bust my balls twice in the same thread. I’m not JA. No one deserves to be treated like him. :)
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Thanks for your opinion Steve, but so far you haven'tpointed out anything that substantiates your initial post of:
"STOP. DO NOT SIGN THOSE PAPERS!!!! (God I hope I'm not too late)
Sundance over Beachcomber? I don't get it? "
If both are the same price how can you compare them. I mean, you haven't given me anything that the beachcomber is a higher quality product than the Sundance. And now that the Sundance is $500 less and comes with a CD Ozonator instead of the UV ozonator it even makes less sense. Don't get me wrong. I think both are very high quality products and they are both top of the line, but if they are both the same price, then I believe the Optima is the better value for your money.
Thanks,
Chris.
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you haven't given me anything that the beachcomber is a higher quality product than the Sundance.Chris.
It's not up to me to do that Chris. Just pointing out the sales gimmicks that can trip up even an educated shopper like yourself. Hell...I don't even sell them! ;D
I'll let bethstar bring this down to a level that I won't even attempt to respond to or Chris_H promoting sales BS that equates to about 1% of the purchase, but at the end of the day Chris, you need to determine value for yourself after finding out the real truth behind the BS. I hope you feel you've done that. If you decide on the Sundance, I still wish you the best with your new tub. Even if it has a plutonium heater. ;) WOW. A heater is $75.00 and should last 10 years if you look after your water. Any more gimmicks you want to throw my way?
BTW, BC has a teflon heater so the element itself never touches the water. Again...1% of the purchase and I'm not impressed.
Ball buster Steve! ;)
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Steve,
1% of the purchase? Components, filtration, and warranty are the three things I would look for in a spa purchase. If those things are not important to you Steve we disagree.
By the way, I have no problem with Beachcomber. I have a problem with the quality of Jacuzzi Premium versus Sundance. Every one of my posts, before you decided to chime in, was between Jacuzzi Premium and Sundance.
Tell me why their heater is better than Sundance’s, tell me why their filtration is better than Sundance’s, tell me why their warranty is better than Sundance’s? All you said about my comments is that it is salesman bullsh*t. You did not explain why Beachcomber’s is better.
If you just promoted Beachcomber and specifically showed why it is better than Sundance I would not be arguing with you. You unfortunately did not do that.
By the way, Sundance’s element is Teflon coated as well. I’m sure you didn’t know that.
Chris H
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Steve,
1% of the purchase? Components, filtration, and warranty are the three things I would look for in a spa purchase. If those things are not important to you Steve we disagree.
You wouldn't be the first my Sundance friend! ;) The point I was making is that plutonium heaters and 800 sq ft filters are gimmicks much like 90% of the stuff in spas today. If we were all 100% honest with ourselves, we would agree that clear, clean and safe water is important and that we have re-invented the wheel in order to sell our spas. If manufacturers did it all the same way, why compete? Why do you think Protec was introduced from Beachcomber? Not because it's the very best, but because it works well and it's different. RULE#1 If someone is doing something that works...change it so it works too but promote it as BETTER!
Why is it I can own a spa for 5 years, have great water, use it every day outside in Alberta, have a 25 sq ft filter, a 5.5 kw heater and never have problems with bacteria or water quality or operating costs that are more than a buck a day? WHY? Because the system I have works great.
The rest is semantics and splitting hairs to make the sale and I'll say it if no one else will. Sure, there some neat additions to spas but is the spa comfortable, therapeutic, energy efficient, low maintenance, adequate filtration for its usage and is my dealer looking after me? Those are big ones Chris and if we disagree on this, that's Okee dokee by me.
By the way, I have no problem with Beachcomber. I have a problem with the quality of Jacuzzi Premium versus Sundance. Every one of my posts, before you decided to chime in, was between Jacuzzi Premium and Sundance.
Both manufacturers have thousands of happy owners. I wouldn't spend too much time with that.
Tell me why their heater is better than Sundance’s, tell me why their filtration is better than Sundance’s, tell me why their warranty is better than Sundance’s? All you said about my comments is that it is salesman bullsh*t. You did not explain why Beachcomber’s is better.
see above comment. It's not about the BETTER thing, it's about the spa that best suits your needs without getting caught up in the sales BS. That's not said directly at you Chris, but rather the entire industry.
If you just promoted Beachcomber and specifically showed why it is better than Sundance I would not be arguing with you. You unfortunately did not do that.
not my job buddy boy! ;) And I don't believe you for a second. It's our natural instinct to defend what we feel is "best" and our own choice in what we sell. I'm not arguing with anyone...just pointing out the facts. Not better...similar without the hype of plutonium.
By the way, Sundance’s element is Teflon coated as well. I’m sure you didn’t know that.
I'm sure it works as well as most spas Chris.
Steve
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Wow your dazed!
For our beachcomber 750, (which we still haven't received) we were quoted $13,119.27 EXCLUDING TAX!
For that we get the same as you were quoted for less the Aquacoustics
and the ozonator. (although our dealer has provided and installed the electricity hook up) Even so, it looks like we are paying over the odds.
Steps
Protec
LED Light
Garden Lights
Cover lifter
Hush pump
Air Blower
Reflex Foot Massage
Redwood Skirt
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Price $13,119.27 plus tax.
Dazed,
Our tax rate is 15%, but they are all including taxes in their price. Here are the exact pricing and options on these tubs:
Optima (Floor model):
UV Ozonator
Steps
LED light
Stereo
Hydraulic Cover Lifter
Synthertic Skirt
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Cup holder
Aromatherapy beads
Delivery and setup
Price: $12000 (Canadian)
Jacuzzi Premium J-385 (Brand new):
CD Ozonator
Steps
LED light
Stereo
Synthertic Skirt
Hydraulic Cover Lifter
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Delivery and Setup
Price: $12200 (Canadian)
Beachcomber 750 (Brand New):
UV ozonator
Steps
Protec
Stereo
LED Light
Garden Lights
Cover lifter
Hush pump
Air Blower
Reflex Foot Massage
Cedar Skirt
Setup and Delivery
Chemicals
Price: $12000 (Canadian)
Thanks,
Chris.
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As far as Sundance filtration, there is a 24 hr circulation pump PLUS a default of 2hrs running the other pumps, which can be increased or decreased.
George
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Hi everyone,
I just wanted to let everyone know that I decided to go with the Beachcomber 750 with the Aquacoustics Sound System, Protec, Hush Pump, Garden Light package, Everlight 3, Reflex Foot Massage, Cover Lifter, Turbo Air Blower, CD Ozonator, Cedar Skirt, 4" EcoCover, 5 year extended Warranty, Sealed Bottom, Chemicals and Delivery, Setup and taxes included. Thanks for all of your help in my final decision and a special thanks to Lesley from KoHo Pools and Spas in Barrie for putting up with me during the research of the hot tub! ;)
If you're in the Barrie area please go and see her if you are in the market for a great hot tub!
Chris.
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I personally know Lesley and she's the best of the best. You are very lucky to have the honor of dealing with someone as professional as she! She's my hero! ::) ;D
Congrats webber on your choice of spas and I wish you and your family many years of enjoyment with it!
Steve
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Glad to see you have made your decision.
I was interested in what you chose as I am on the verge
of buying a BC 750 as well.
Your price is 38% less than what I was quoted for the
same tub from my local dealer. And that was supposed to be his "truckload sale" pricing.
I've been looking at other BC dealers.
When do you get your tub?
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Thanks Steve....
Lesley just informed me that she found a 750 that had been cancelled that is coming into the Toronto warehouse and I can have it in the backyard by next week! Can't wait!
Where are you located KC-SWO?
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STOP. DO NOT SIGN THOSE PAPERS!!!! (God I hope I'm not too late) ;D
Beachcomber over Adventure Spas? ??? I don't get it? ???
Seriously though, after being in this industry for many many years, construction, insulation and overall quality is superior to the others you mentioned. IMO of course (for those of you ready to tear a strip out of me ;D )
I think you'll find the Adventure Spas far higher quality with far better support from the company when you look further into it. Take your time and give yourself another chance at purchasing this spa. It's worth doing so.
The deal you were offered is fantastic and though I'm no longer with Adventure Spas, I can assure you that you need to reconsider the total value. Where abouts in Ontario are you?
If I'm too late, go get your deposit back! If they won't give it to you, I'll start a fund here and we'll collect the money! ;D
The Grand Pooba 400,000 LXSBX50Z is one of the alltime most comfortable, therapeutic and amazing spas money can buy. You'll never regret owning it!
As for Dazed... ohhhhhh nevermind... ::)
-Ed
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Very well written Ed. You are very articulate! Just a little late is all! ;) ;D
Steve
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Webber;
As a former Beachcomber dealer, you got a great price. I was surprised to hear you list "sealed bottom" as an option. Is that something Koho is adding on or is Keith Scott actually listening to his dealers? Nah, Koho must be adding it.
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Webber;
As a former Beachcomber dealer, you got a great price. I was surprised to hear you list "sealed bottom" as an option. Is that something Koho is adding on or is Keith Scott actually listening to his dealers? Nah, Koho must be adding it.
No - Beachcomber are far too stuck in their ways to listen to their dealers (or customers). Having been told that Beachcomber refuse to protect their bases, I asked our dealer to install a pressure treated plywood base on our 750 to help keep out the bugs. I must say, if it were not for the fact that the 750 was so comfortable and our dealer so helpful, I would not buy from Beachcomber. I think their products are over priced, under powered and lacking in extras. However, the 750 shell design is first class.
Personally, I can’t help but feel that Beachcomber is slow to react to changing markets. But then again, after waiting eight weeks for our spa to be delivered (so far) I have come to expect as much.
Steve K
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But then again, after waiting eight weeks for our spa to be delivered (so far) I have come to expect as much.
8 weeks? holy sheep p00p!
I'd call the manufacturer and make sure the dealer isn't scewin' around...
sorry if I sound a bit reactionary but I am after experiencing a similar situation that has resulted in a law suit. Check up on that dealer...
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No. I don’t think it’s the dealer. I called Beachcomber myself and found them totally apathetic. Or should that be pathetic? Anyway, the dealer called me today to say our spa was now in stock and could be installed on Saturday. Although, you know, after all this time, the magic has dulled somewhat.
Steve K
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Very well written Ed. You are very articulate! Just a little late is all! ;) ;D
Steve
8)
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Yeah, I asked Koho to include that for me.
------------------------------
As a former Beachcomber dealer, you got a great price. I was surprised to hear you list "sealed bottom" as an option. Is that something Koho is adding on or is Keith Scott actually listening to his dealers? Nah, Koho must be adding it.[/quote]
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I'm located in Sarnia Ontario.
My dealer is asking more than what you paid for
a 2 year old trade in.
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KC-SWO:
Wow...what a rip-off! Do you have any other dealers nearby?
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Yes, there are 2 others.
Both just a little farther away.
One has already quoted me a good price on a tub that
he has in stock. Someone ordered it, and didn't take
it. It is a 750 for a little less than what you paid for
yours.
The other dealer I have not talked with yet.
Did your dealer start with high markups and negociate
down that far? Or did the price start close to there?
I sorta think that the closest dealer is not taking me
seriously.
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The deal that Webber got is literally thousands of dollars less than I could/would sell a 750 loaded tub for. In fact, our 2003 floor model clearance price for a loaded 750 was more than that, and our price did not include tax.
I do not know of any other dealer that would even come close to that price.
You got one heck of a deal Webber, congratulations!
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Yes, I got a good deal for sure. They price matched the price of the Optima that I was looking to purchase.
KC-SWO: Why aren't you jumping on that 750 that they are going to give you a good deal on?
-----------------------------------
Yes, there are 2 others.
Both just a little farther away.
One has already quoted me a good price on a tub that
he has in stock. Someone ordered it, and didn't take
it. It is a 750 for a little less than what you paid for
yours.
The other dealer I have not talked with yet.
Did your dealer start with high markups and negociate
down that far? Or did the price start close to there?
I sorta think that the closest dealer is not taking me
seriously.
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I did jump on it.
It is on hold for me.
I am just looking around to compare what is out there.
Even at that price, it was more money than I intended
to really spend on a tub. But that is like most things
I buy, the budget gets exceeded by 10-20%. :)
I don't want delivery until mid-October when I get
my new house, so I have some time.
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Yeah, that's exactly the same as us. We started out looking to spend around $6-7000...then once I became a little more knowledgable the budget skyrocketed!
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Webber,
When do you get your tub?
What is the base of the 750 like??
I didn't really pay that much attention to the base?
Do you think that the plywood added to the base
would be that much better?
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The problem is Beachcomber tubs simply don’t have a base of any kind. Putting a plywood bottom on may go some way to stopping bees, ants etc from making a home in the foam insulation.
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If the tub is sitting on a concrete pad and it has a pressure treated kickplate that surrounds the entire base circumference, do these critters eat through the concrete or pressure treated wood?
When I was selling Beachcomber over an 8 year period, I can recall 3 times we installed a 3/4" piece of plywood to address this massive concern.
It's not an earth sharrtering issue believe it not for most. When it is, it's a 10 minute fix.
Steve
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Webber,
When do you get your tub?
What is the base of the 750 like??
I didn't really pay that much attention to the base?
Do you think that the plywood added to the base
would be that much better?
We should get our tub by next week. Yeah, I think that the plywood base will help. It will at least stop me from thinking about mice getting in.
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Steve,
1% of the purchase? Components, filtration, and warranty are the three things I would look for in a spa purchase. If those things are not important to you Steve we disagree.
Chris,
If Sundance has such an awesome filtration and warranty why do they exclude jets and valves after two years.
If a spa manufacturer says they have a 5 year plumbing warranty why aren't jets and valves covered after two years?
Sundance isn't the only company that does this and I think it's misleading. I have heard many times from Sundance owners that sand and crap gets into the jets and they need to be replaced at a cost to the consumer.
Is this caused because people can't keep those pesky little spa condoms on the bottom intakes?
Spahappy
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Spahappy! Are telling me my hot tub needs condoms too?!? I got married to get away from those things.
HTMan
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If the tub is sitting on a concrete pad and it has a pressure treated kickplate that surrounds the entire base circumference, do these critters eat through the concrete or pressure treated wood?
When I was selling Beachcomber over an 8 year period, I can recall 3 times we installed a 3/4" piece of plywood to address this massive concern.
It's not an earth sharrtering issue believe it not for most. When it is, it's a 10 minute fix.
Steve
So - if it only takes a few minutes to seal the base why don’t Beachcomber bother to do this simple task?
By the way, the point of sealing the base is not to keep out larger animals like mice. The idea is to keep out the damp as well as insects etc. Our local Arctic dealer keeps a display of Beachcombers he has traded in which are infested with everything from ants to mold.
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So - if it only takes a few minutes to seal the base why don’t Beachcomber bother to do this simple task?
By the way, the point of sealing the base is not to keep out larger animals like mice. The idea is to keep out the damp as well as insects etc. Our local Arctic dealer keeps a display of Beachcombers he has traded in which are infested with everything from ants to mold.
My point exactly! We plan on placing our spa (when it finally arrives) on a brushed concrete patio. Since we don't want water or pests crawling under the kick board and making nests in all that foam, we asked our dealer to seal it for us.
As you will find out this is a good forum. However, every time someone points out a feature that their manufacture can't provide, it's termed "bells and whistles" You have just came across one such example.
Steve K
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As you will find out this is a good forum. However, every time someone points out a feature that their manufacture can't provide, it's termed "bells and whistles" You have just came across one such example.
Steve K
Wow. Nothing like extremes... >:(
Here is another take on the "perils" of this board...
Many small and/or more aggressive (there seems to be a correlation) hot tub manufacturers -- and arctic is most certainly one of them -- over-engineer solutions to things which are usually not problems. Dealers then use this over-engineered solution to a non-problem to do 1 of 2 things:
1) Create fear in potential customers. Arctic (do some research) has a history of really laying on the fear big time. And I have heard they aren't above "helping" their little dioramas prove the point they want to make.
2) Prey on customers ego by showing them "secrets" that "no one else" buying hot tubs seems to "know". Anything to avoid the ol' cognitive dissonance, ya know?
Here is a revelation:
Your hot tub skirt is not hermetically sealed. Adding a plastic base pan will not hermetically seal your hot tub.
Ants have been found in hot tubs with little plastic bases, shocking, I know, but don't let it rock anybody's world.
The thought that there is a magic bullet to problems such as pests (mice, ants, spiders, termites, water beetles, etc...) and molds *is* marketing BULLHOCKEY. If you live in areas prone to mold (high humidity, rural?) your little ABS pan isn't going to stop it.
Ants will not nest in ground-contact rated lumber. Nor will mold house in it. Ground contact lumber is called ground contact lumber for a reason. If you don't believe that then don't argue it on a hot tub forum, go take it up with every structural engineer in the US.
Sometimes people propagate fear and lies because they need to perceive an advantage in whatever tub they purchased.
-Ed
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A wise man once said
"That is an ingenious solution to a non existing problem". (Col. Jeff Cooper)
But it is fun to debate, just don't take things too personally. Attacking some questionable trait about my stuff isn't the same as attacking me.
Brewman
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Very well written ebirrane. Sometimes the perceived value of something is just that. It's the same mentality that has caused manufacturers to offer the silly features that are cool for the first 6 months only.
The "fear factor" you mentioned is rampant in spa dealers.
I challenge anyone to walk into an Arctic (sorry for picking but they are notorious for it) and I guarantee you that leaks and freezing and rodents and floors rotting will be brought up at some point. I'm amazed they sell ANY spas? Go buy a sled if this purchase is as horrific as they make it sound... ::)
I have many customers that have experienced this negative selling (what I call it anyway...) and came very close to not purchasing a spa at all. Luckily, there are dealers that can address these horrible fears without the BS and offer a product that they are going to be very happy with. It's not all bad...In fact, it's pretty darn good to have one in your back yard and we're all at fault to some degree of not keeping that top of mind... :-/
Steve
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Sorry, I don't know why that got my goat. I'm not a dealer, and I already bought my tub. I guess after researching so much I've come to like the information for information's sake. :P
As for scare tactics, here's one:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/17/alligator.captured.ap/index.html
Must not have had an ABS pan on the bottom!
-Ed