Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: MaryM on September 10, 2004, 09:54:55 pm
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I am looking for a premium spa (but not necessarily at a premium price ;)) I live in New England, so I need a hearty, well insulated spa.
There seems to be no Consumer Reports. I found one site that listed top spas as:
Marquis
Hot Springs
Dimension 1
Sundance
Jucuzzi Premium
Does this seem right?
As to insullation, I have heard full high-density is best.
Hot Spings has that. Marquis says it is closed cell low-density. Low density makes me think not good. Dimension 1 says multi-density, so I have no idea where that falls. Sundance has a high density foam surrounds the equipment bay and a lighter more insulating foam fills the remainder of the space. Wouldn't all high density be better? Jucuzzi just says "full foam", so I have no idea which type this is.
Also, I have heard good things about Emerald? They say "high density foam with optional foot wrap. Any ideas on either of these spas, their insulation, or *anything* of use?
Thanks,
Mary
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Those are all good spas. Dont know Emerald. As far as foam density; refocus to more important things. There is no independant study i have SEEN that proves that one is better than the other. I have been told by manufacturer reps that all five of those are within $1/month in operating costs.
Like all the pros here say WET TEST WET TEST WET TEST
Happy shopping
HotTubMan
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Hi Mary,
I not in the business but am a shopper and you pretty much have the bigger names in the business. There also is Beachcomber, Caldera and Artesian. I'm sure others posters will chime in. All the spas you mention with the exception af Emerald are full foamed (FF). Emerald uses a thermo-pane (TP) design. The 3 I mentioned are FF.
All the spas mentioned are certainly high quality spas and you couldn't go wrong picking any one of them. The FF vs TP war rages on in all message boards, as does "the best hot tub"; my opinion is high quality is high quality and get the tub you like the best and has the features you want.
Everyone will say wet test, I have yet to find a dealer in NJ that will let me do it. If you can great.
Jacuzzi and Sundance are owned by the same company but are different in price tag and jetting. There is a Sweetwater line also from Sundance. Hot Springs and Caldera are owned by the same company, I don't know about price tag but jetting is different. Hot springs also offers a Tiger River brand and a Solana (I think).
Good luck in your search!
Vinny
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if you tell us "the site" we can probably provide some additional info
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Hi Mary
The tub you have on the top of your list is right where it should be !
I have nothing to gain from you buying Marquis ... but you do !
Enjoy your new tub ....
p.s. its the air trapped within the foam that is giving you the insulation factor ... not the foam itself , but I am open to hearing from any foam experts .... I am not one .
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Hi Mary,
Added information on Marquis foam. It is called Icynene. This is a high "R" value foam used in many new homes and industrial construction applicaitons today. It bears the energy star rating. Beyond that, the spa is wrapped with a "low energy" wrap all designed to lower energy costs. Also, look at the linear heat seal on the cover.
Good Luck and wet test.
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A few questions...
1) Was is an "energy star rating" and how does it apply to hot tubs?
2)What is the "R" value of the spa?
3)What is "low energy wrap"?
4) Just how much do these products "lower operating costs"?
All great "marketing names" but what do they offer the consumer for value?
Steve
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Steve,
Thank you!
-Huh?
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Hi Mary,
Reread hot tub mans post...it says it all. Buy any of those tubs and you shouldn't have any worries.....
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A few questions...
1) Was is an "energy star rating" and how does it apply to hot tubs?
Energy Star is a rating system set up by the Environmental Protection Agency to promote the use of products that meet a standard of low energy usage. There are specific tax write offs for consumers and manufactures that use these products.
2)What is the "R" value of the spa?
Not sure off of the top of my head and I don't want to give false info but icenyne foam (according to the manufacture) has an "R" value of 3.6 per inch (BTW, "Dead Air" space has an "R" value of .76 to 1.27 at ambient temp). There is an average of 10 inches in the cabinet. To get the exact "R" value you would have to also find the "R" value of all materials including the fiberglass and DuraWood cabinet in addition to the Low E Wrap (which I will attempt to cover below). The important qualities to the Icenyne is that studies show that it has a 97.3% reduction in Thermal Resistance heat flow for every 10 inches in addition to a greater airflow resistance, mold/mildew resistance and a 70% reduction in noise coefficient over competative products. The benefit of these qualities in a spa application should be obvious.
3)What is "low energy wrap"?
Low E is a foil vapor barrier sheet that is put in place to prevent heat from escaping through the spa walls and base in addition to the Icenyne. It has a foil layer on both sides of an expanded foam and is used in everything from coolers and drink holders to extreme weather tents.
4) Just how much do these products "lower operating costs"?
You might be able to come up with an average savings but the bottom line is that Marquis has done everything they could think of to make the spa more efficient. True savings would be based on geographical location, type of pad, wind and many other factors.
All great "marketing names" but what do they offer the consumer for value?
Steve
That is for a consumer to decide, there is quite a bit of marketing in the product names but the bottom line is a company with the reputation of Marquis is not going to waste time or money on the research, development and implantation of items that don’t improve the product. It would be much easier to just come up with a cool story and marketing name of an inexpensive substance that “potentially” does the same thing rather than use a name brand item backed by governmental case studies at a higher cost to everyone.
I don’t know if everything they claim on automobile performance enhancements is true but I put many of them on my vehicle. When I bought my new SUV one of the first things I did was to put on a K/N air filter and believe me I asked for it by name! Did it give me more HP and better gas mileage? I can’t say but what I can say is that my buddy bought the exact same vehicle within a week, we both have mileage computers and mine getting significantly better mileage than his plus he swears that I have a great deal more power!
Don’t take me wrong, I think I know where your going with this and I tend to agree for the most part. Putting in a heater that fails 3% less yet costs 100% more may not make sense but trying to minimize the consumers total cost of ownership by using better materials does!
Oh and hey, if the cool marketing names make my job easier and give me a competitive edge, I’m perfectly OK with that!
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Stu,
I just signed on and enjoyed your clarification of my initial efforts to help the consumer.
Thanks
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Mary,
You can see that we often become passionate about
our industry. I hope you look here long enough to see that we also have a sense of humor and sincere desire to help.
Rocket
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Stuart;
Are there states that actually give Energy Star rebates for out door leisure appliances such as Hot Tubs?
HotTubMan
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I actually believe that it is on any appliance but that is a good question! I know that I got a rebate for my washer and dryer as they were Energy Star rated.
There might be some gray area here though that I need to clarify; I was explaining what the Energy Star program was and that Marquis uses an Energy Star rated foam but I believe you have to have the entire appliance rated and I don't know if Marquis has forgone the expense to do that yet but I will certainly find out.
My earlier point was that they chose a foam that had a governmental study backing it instead of any off the shelf industrial spray foam.
I will get with Marquis this week and let you know what I found out!
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"Not sure off of the top of my head and I don't want to give false info but icenyne foam (according to the manufacture) has an "R" value of 3.6 per inch"
ummmmm, 3.6 per inch? That rather SUCKS! The standard 2 pound spray in poly foam most spa manufacturers use is 6.8 to 7.14 per inch.
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Well how you missed the 3rd largest seller of spas off your top 5 list is beyond me. Master Spas builds a great product. My understanding of the ranking goes..
1. Hot springs
2. Sundance
3. Master spa
And for my money I chose master because I felt like the #1 and 2 had been resting on their past accomplishments too long. Plus you defintiely pay a premium for names for #1 and 2. Therefore if 3 costs as much as 1 and 2, and you pay less for the #3 name, you get a beter spa for your money with #3. Plus for @8k I didn't want to have to decide which seats in my spa got thearpy at the expense of others. (#1 and 2 use diverter valves). Ok I got the flame suit on......bring it! ;D ;D ;D
Ps Master offers both Full foam and thermal blanket! You can pick your choice!
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Third largest seller of spas huh???? Ummm.....did i miss something, b/c the top 3 produces of spas in the world in terms of sales are watkins manufacturing, sundance, and Dimension One. And seeing as master spas is not in many of the markets in the U.S., i find it difficult to believe that they are in the third largest producer of spas in the industry.
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Poolboy has a valid question. I have never heard anyone suggest that Master was even close to the top three. And BTW who can actually verify any of this? Its not like the number of spa units produced is some sort of public record. No one seems to dispute that Watkins makes more tubs than anyone. No one seems to dispute that Sundance/Jacuzzi produces the next largest number of units. I have heard reps and customers from various manufacturers claim to be #3 in units produced. This list includes but I am sure is not limited to: D-1, Coleman (heard these ones form my factory reps) Marquis, Master, Catalina and the list goes on. The rest of my list I have seen on this board.
I am not even sure who to beleive between my MAAX (Coleman) and D-1 reps. On one hand MAAX has 3 NothAmerican plants and D-1 has just one. On the other hand D-1's thermal plastic or ABS backed acrylic tubs can be formed for the next stage of production much faster than the time consuming and strictly regulated acrylic/fiberglass shell method. I would suggest that if Master is fibergalss backed and has only one plant, there is no chance they are top three.
Opinions?
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"Not sure off of the top of my head and I don't want to give false info but icenyne foam (according to the manufacture) has an "R" value of 3.6 per inch"
ummmmm, 3.6 per inch? That rather SUCKS! The standard 2 pound spray in poly foam most spa manufacturers use is 6.8 to 7.14 per inch.
Actually I got the standard from burtin corp as to what the "R" value was on the spray foam they manufacture and they said 3.2 per inch and Icenyne was 3.6 I would be interested in where your getting 6.8 to 7.14 as a standard? Could you point me that way, I'm doing some research on this today. If this board does nothing else it makes me study more!
BTW, where the heck have you been!?
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Stuart, I'll pm the info to you tonight (it's on my home computer). However, what density foam are you refering to? If 2 pound foam has a R-7.2 R-value, 1 pound has 1/2 that, or R-3.6..... 1/2 pound foam has half that again, or R-1.8
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That might be the difference, I didn't check lb densities when I pulled that info off of the Icenyne website. I will follow up with a conclusion when I get your info. Just because you deal with more foam vendors than the rest of us doesn't make you know more (well maybe it does). It's the fact that your so old and have been around the block more that makes you so much more knowledgeable. ;D