Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: clubby on September 06, 2004, 05:42:55 pm
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We are looking to purchase a hot tub and wondered what # of jets is best and the size of the motor(s). We are given so many different answers and would like to know what everyone has to say. Also, is Hot Springs tubs a good one to purchase?
Thanks
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Hot Spring is one of the better brands out there.
If a salesman is boasting of jet count and horse power, this usually indicates that it is a lower line of spa. In the early 90's, spa companies not willing to build a quality product began misleading the consumer in two ways, more jets are better and bigger pumps are better. Both are not true. Beware of these spas.
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I've known several happy Hot Springs customers and they are generally well regarded. As for your other questions, There would be a lot of ifs and buts in any answer. 200 jets with restrictive plumbing and underpowered pumps wouldn't be as good as 20 with good plumbing and pumps. Variable jets help you customize your massage. Number of pumps and diverters make a differnce,your just going to have to just jump in and test it out. Way too many variables for an easy answer.
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There is no solid answer to your question.
Testing will tell you what spa is right for you. Some like getting blasted by their spas, while others like a less vigorous massage.
Stick with the major players, wet test to see what fits you best, and go from there. Don't worry as much about jet count, and don't be swayed by pump horespower claims, the marketers love to bend these numbers.
Brewman
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Hot Spring is one of the better brands out there.
If a salesman is boasting of jet count and horse power, this usually indicates that it is a lower line of spa. In the early 90's, spa companies not willing to build a quality product began misleading the consumer in two ways, more jets are better and bigger pumps are better. Both are not true. Beware of these spas.
Clubby, please take rocket's comments with a grain of salt. Do not concentrate on hp or number of jets--wet test, wet test, wet test and get a feel for the therapy of the spas. I'm not going to follow rocket's lead and open yet again the ridiculous debate on hp and # of jets except to say that one sould be a wise consumer and take their time to sift through the advertising/sales pitches and actually wet test to see if the therapy suits you. Make sure to find out if the jets are individually adjustable--there is one major brand that is extremely reputable with many installations that has no individual adjustablilty for the jets. I found that to be an important factor in my decision and I individually adjust jets during my soaks.
Good luck with your search!
8)
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I agree with rocket! 90 jets in a spa means 90 holes in a shell 90 + pieces of plumbing to potentially leak in addition to the extra manifolds and connections that have to be added.
You only have so much amperage to work with on your electrical connection and the more pumps you add the smaller they have to be in order to be able to run them. Many manufactures don't bother to tell you that when you turn on all pumps/blowers that you turn off your heater and start losing heat! Don’t buy into the HP game; the ratio of amperage vs. HP cannot be true on some brands when you actually do the math it could not work. It’s more about water flow than HP. Think about this; what if some came up with a way to give the most incredible massage in world with a ¾ HP pump? Less power draw, less expensive, less repair and maintenance costs – what a concept!
The more you can accomplish towards therapy without just adding more jets and pumps, the less problems you will have over time.
Look more at jet placement, type and feel than number and power claims. For me 20-30 well placed jets with 2 pumps that adequately back them are great. I've sat in several 1-pump systems I loved!
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Don’t buy into the HP game; the ratio of amperage vs. HP cannot be true on some brands when you actually do the math it could not work. It’s more about water flow than HP. Think about this; what if some came up with a way to give the most incredible massage in world with a ¾ HP pump? Less power draw, less expensive, less repair and maintenance costs – what a concept!
!
I've noticed the vaccum cleaner industry is getting into this now as well, labeling vacuums with their amperage draw. If it draws more amps it must clean better right?
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I've noticed the vaccum cleaner industry is getting into this now as well, labeling vacuums with their amperage draw. If it draws more amps it must clean better right?
WM, That’s a great comparison! Almost every household outlet is on a 15 amp breaker and many vacuum brands out there tout a 15 to 18 amp unit. That would mean that if that were a true rating half of America would have to change their breakers and wiring to use that sucker (yes pun intended). How about this, if you sell the vacuum with the largest bag does that mean it cleans better than any other? Compare that to spa filters now.......?
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Two words:
Wet test.
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Stated another way,
Placement and action of the jets, including how air is introduced is more important than pump horsepower.
a lot of small little jets blasting on you may not be as comforatable a larger volume jets with rotating action and adjustable air-flow. The airflow makes the impact on the body softer.
A mix and match arrangement is generally preferable.
Location of the foot jets (wetwell or dome is important)
Seat countour (bucket or bench), seat height should not be overlooked if people of different heights are primary tub users.
Horsepower numbers can be misleading as well, Some suppliers will quote brake (peak) or start-up while others will rate their pumps at continuous duty.
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I agree with rocket! 90 jets in a spa means 90 holes in a shell 90 + pieces of plumbing to potentially leak in addition to the extra manifolds and connections that have to be added.
You only have so much amperage to work with on your electrical connection and the more pumps you add the smaller they have to be in order to be able to run them. Many manufactures don't bother to tell you that when you turn on all pumps/blowers that you turn off your heater and start losing heat! Don’t buy into the HP game; the ratio of amperage vs. HP cannot be true on some brands when you actually do the math it could not work. It’s more about water flow than HP. Think about this; what if some came up with a way to give the most incredible massage in world with a ¾ HP pump? Less power draw, less expensive, less repair and maintenance costs – what a concept!
The more you can accomplish towards therapy without just adding more jets and pumps, the less problems you will have over time.
Look more at jet placement, type and feel than number and power claims. For me 20-30 well placed jets with 2 pumps that adequately back them are great. I've sat in several 1-pump systems I loved!
Ahmen.
I couldn't add any more to Stuart's Post.
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Any seasoned, non-biased person will tell you to wet test. If the tub with the more HP and Jets seems more comfortable to you, by all means go for it. If the one's with less power do the trick better, nothing should stop you from considering them.
1 Who are you buying the tub for?
2 What are you buying the tub for?
The tub should be comfortable and sustainable for all people involved in the decision. Pumps and HP should only be a concern if they matter to you. Nol tub is perfect for everyone.
It seems those that sell/have more powerful tubs, will rave about the benefits of more HP, and put down those that don't.
Those that have tubs with less HP seem to bash those that have more HP.
Decide for yourself. Wet test...suggesting anything else would be a disservice to you.
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Well you asked two questions, one about hp/#jets and another about hot springs.
HP is deceiving. A poorly plumbed and over-jetted high-horsepower pump can be less effective than a well-plumbed, efficiently jetted lower HP pump. Generally you want to measure the amount of water coming out of the jets in the various configurations and you can only do that through a wet test. Manufacturers do not list gallons per minute out of jets. There are just too many configurations of jets and diverter valve settings.
I personally favor 2 jet pumps. Can't imagine needing 3, but could see how just 1 on a larger tub could be a little weak. Even fully "turned off", some jets leak a little water if the pump is still running. Turning 1 pump off is a great way to truly turn off half a spa. Many tubs with higher powered pumps instruct you to leave a minimal set of jets open to avoid stressing the pump. In that case, in my opinion, 2 lower HP pumps are worth more than 1 higher HP pump. Of course 2 adequately powered pumps is, again, probably ideal.
Number of jets is also misleading. Yes, more jets increase the probability that some jet somewhere will hit you in a good spot. It also increases the chance that some jet somewhere will hit you in a bad spot. 400 gallon Tubs with 90-100 jets in them seem, to me, to be excessive.
As for your Hot Springs question...
Hot Springs is a *very* good brand. They make good hot tubs and Watkins manufacturing has a very good and very long history of honoring their warranty. I'm sure other hot tub manufacturers are good as well, especially the "major" players, but since you asked specifically about Hot Springs, they are a good brand. Depending on the message board you will see alot of people taking pot shots at HS tubs but they are the biggest manufacturer of tubs in the US and that is to be expected.
One thing that I felt was a tangible difference between hot springs and other companies was the "moto massage". When my wife and I get in the tub it is to relax, often for hours in the evening. When we have company over, we all get in the tub for hours. We found that the 2 moto massage jets in our grandee *never* bothered our backs even after sitting in front of them for 3-4 hours at a time. Sometimes the neck jets had to be turned down, but the moto-massage itself was pretty unique.
Other manufacturers have jets that twist, spin, pulse, add air, squirt, jab, pound, or any other liquid-type verb you can think of, but moving up and down the length of your back was a new one for us. It took 3 or 4 wet tests to get used to it, but boy are we glad we did!
Your mileage may vary.
-Ed
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I agree with huh? The big HP guys bash the low HP guys and so on.
I agree with Chas and most others, wet test.
And here is another comparison for you:
Is is safe to say that two vehicles with 200HP are going to perform the same? What about torque, weight, exhaust etc etc etc.
Would listen to me if I told you that you need 200HP in your vehicle?
No one can really answer your question, sorry.
HotTubMan ;D
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I have the grandee too...
I don't know if the moto massage is considered one jet or 4, but it is comfortable. I assume the neck massage is considered as 4.
but we like the non-moto seats with the spinners and the seat with the small jets. We will bounce from seat to seat to get a varitey of action. Thus, one seat may be comfortable, but a variety is better for long term enjoyment.
Look at the non-corner seats. Sometimes manufactures locate all the jets in the corners and the side seats are for "cooling off" (wimpy) action.
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Someone once told me to compare hot tub jets to shower jets ....
A shower head with 50 jets will get you wet with a fine spray and little massage but a shower head with 25 jets will both get you wet and you will feel the pressure and message ....
Both pumping the same quantity of water.
Less can be better !
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I agree, less holes more pressure. However, take the 50 hole shower head and through one of these behind it and violla, same pressure as 25 holes.
(http://www.watertanks.com/images/booster2004.jpg) (http://www.watertanks.com/category.asp?404;http://www.watertanks.com/category/271.asp)
But then you wouldn't be using the same quantity of water.
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Here's the grain of salt. It's important that the consumer understand what some manufacturer's are dong in this industry in an effort ot mislead them.
If we allow misinformation, then the trust we should all be working hard to obtain with our customers can be thrown out the window.
Check the Pool & Spa News industry magazine dated December 20, 1993. Here are a few quotes:
"More jets sell", says Sam Royhob, general manager, American Spas. "Vissually it looks very impressive with jets and me all othe spa. It's mostly cosmetic but the omnlooks expensive."
"There's a race for horsepower and jets. Manufacturers are trying to keep up with each other and we keep adding more. We're overjetting and overpowering and all it does is put more holes in the spa and cause service problems. The result is that the whole industry suffers," noted George Hendricks president of Emerald spas.
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REdo quote from Pool & Spa 12/20/93-"Visually it looks very impressive with jets and chrome all over the spa. It's mostly cosmetic but the customer thinks that it looks expensive."
Also, look in the Pool & Spa News dated 12/20/93 by jim McNichol to see what he says about HP.
I believe that this is a great forum with some industry experts that are really trying to change the impression that people may have of this industry which will result in
customer satisfaction and trust.
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One mans trash is another mans treasure. To strickly say that a tub with less jets is better than one with more jets (or vice versa) is a huge disservice to the people we are trying to help. As far as chrome. What if someone wants a tub for entertaining/leisure. Is chrome not something he should look at? I think we all keep forgetting that there are different reasons people buy spas. As much as you disslike some companies, they may be perfect for others. I know that not every company makes a spa perfect for everyone. Talk about getting back to the basics. We're supposed to be here to help. If someone was looking for a verry inexpensive starter spa, that he will leave at his house when he moves in 6 mos. I would do the unthinkable and suggest maybe homedepot, of course after I show him the benefits of what I can offer. I would tell him what he could expect from the big box, if the pros out weigh the cons, I have helped him to the best of my proffesional ability. I point him in the right direction.
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Here's the grain of salt. It's important that the consumer understand what some manufacturer's are dong in this industry in an effort ot mislead them.
If we allow misinformation, then the trust we should all be working hard to obtain with our customers can be thrown out the window.
Check the Pool & Spa News industry magazine dated December 20, 1993. Here are a few quotes:
"More jets sell", says Sam Royhob, general manager, American Spas. "Vissually it looks very impressive with jets and me all othe spa. It's mostly cosmetic but the omnlooks expensive."
"There's a race for horsepower and jets. Manufacturers are trying to keep up with each other and we keep adding more. We're overjetting and overpowering and all it does is put more holes in the spa and cause service problems. The result is that the whole industry suffers," noted George Hendricks president of Emerald spas.
Hey, waitaminute, aren't you using pure advertising sources to make a point about advertising? Hmmmm....I think I'd use other sources.....
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