Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Cuddlebug on September 04, 2018, 03:45:15 pm
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Looking to purchase tub from out of state dealer but only 35 miles away and my questions regard contract. After reading many horror stories contract seems pretty vague price delivery steps cover lift chems. No mention of set up even though assured they will. No mention of warranty,service,service charges,time frame of service,compensation for tub down time if excessive. Seems contract and not just this one others as well, intentionally vague but when an issue arises it's the first thing they reference in their best interest because they do it so often. Any help on specific issues to have addressed in writing before signing and making payment? Also are a good blanket over water worth it to preserve cover and insulation? Thank you
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Looking to purchase tub from out of state dealer but only 35 miles away and my questions regard contract. After reading many horror stories contract seems pretty vague price delivery steps cover lift chems. No mention of set up even though assured they will. No mention of warranty,service,service charges,time frame of service,compensation for tub down time if excessive. Seems contract and not just this one others as well, intentionally vague but when an issue arises it's the first thing they reference in their best interest because they do it so often. Any help on specific issues to have addressed in writing before signing and making payment? Also are a good blanket over water worth it to preserve cover and insulation? Thank you
I think that’s how most contracts read. Warranty is from manufacturer not the dealer. Dealer just performs warranty work. I usually add no service charge on warranty for x a
Punt of time depending on how negotiations go. Compensation for down time I don’t think you will get any dealer to give you. I wouldn’t put that on paperwork. I try to stock as much as I can parts wise but I have had a time or two when a part I need under warranty has been on backorder for a few weeks. Can’t really blame the dealer for that. Maybe get something in writing about timeframe to perform warranty service.
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Thanks for your response it was very helpful. I believe you to be a man of integrity and would buy from you in a heartbeat.I find it interesting you were the only one to respond. after viewing numerous posts on benefits of buying local it seems that after purchase responsibility for problems falls to manufacturer. All comments on buying from big box stores or master are hollow when local dealers put nothing in contracts about their responsibility after purchase.as long as their is good local service and have a tub that doesn't. Have proprietary parts I should be fine. Going to buy a master spa and feel very comfortable about it. Thanks again
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Hottubguy is correct that the warranty is from the manufacturer and not the dealer. Maybe I am misunderstanding your response to his reply. The dealer is the one responsible for performing any service, not the manufacturer. If there is an issue, you contact your dealer, not the manufacturer. The manufacturer typically only gets involved if you as the customer contacts them because of an issue between you and your dealer. Never underestimate the importance of a quality reputable dealer.
Typically, your big box retailers sell low quality and offer no after sale support, which is why most here suggest to avoid them. Company's like Master Spas and Cal Spas for example, have earned their reputations which is why they receive little if any positive thoughts here.
I have sold hot tubs for over 17 years and always worked for a reputable dealer that performs their own service work, warranty or not. The only time I have specifically put anything in a sales contract regarding service is if the hot tub will be located a significant distance from my store, then I would put in what the mileage fee would be. On the rare occasion I had a customer who needed it in the sales contract stating we service what we sell, etc, etc, etc, then I would include the requested information.
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Thanks for your response it was very helpful. I believe you to be a man of integrity and would buy from you in a heartbeat.I find it interesting you were the only one to respond. after viewing numerous posts on benefits of buying local it seems that after purchase responsibility for problems falls to manufacturer. All comments on buying from big box stores or master are hollow when local dealers put nothing in contracts about their responsibility after purchase.as long as their is good local service and have a tub that doesn't. Have proprietary parts I should be fine. Going to buy a master spa and feel very comfortable about it. Thanks again
Are you purchasing from a dealer or a expo? If a dealer younshould be fine if from a expo I would want more in writing about warranty. Ultimately it’s a manufacurer warranty but we as dealers are expected to perform the services. Expo sales who is going to do service when they are in another state the following week? I don’t think Master is a bad spa though I do think there are many better options. If I was to buy a Master it would be from a dealer not a traveling show
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I have looked at arctic,artesian,caldera,jaccuzzi,hot springs,sundance,signature,coast,marquis,American whirlpool,bullfrog,nordic, and all are more expensive than master healthy living 7 or twilight 7.25 by 2000. The only ones that even compare are coast,marquis signature,and artesian island elite and all are well over 10k.do not see any better jetting,shell,warranty or insulation in any. Filtration I'll give to coast. Structure to bullfrog.
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Also thank you all very much for input
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I have looked at arctic,artesian,caldera,jaccuzzi,hot springs,sundance,signature,coast,marquis,American whirlpool,bullfrog,nordic, and all are more expensive than master healthy living 7 or twilight 7.25 by 2000. The only ones that even compare are coast,marquis signature,and artesian island elite and all are well over 10k.do not see any better jetting,shell,warranty or insulation in any. Filtration I'll give to coast. Structure to bullfrog.
If you want to buy on price and specs on paper then go ahead but you won't see people here recommending Master. There are about a dozen companies that you could name that most everyone would say "not a bad choice, just make sure the dealer is good too". Master would not be among them or even among the next few on my list and others here!
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I have looked at arctic,artesian,caldera,jaccuzzi,hot springs,sundance,signature,coast,marquis,American whirlpool,bullfrog,nordic, and all are more expensive than master healthy living 7 or twilight 7.25 by 2000. The only ones that even compare are coast,marquis signature,and artesian island elite and all are well over 10k.do not see any better jetting,shell,warranty or insulation in any. Filtration I'll give to coast. Structure to bullfrog.
Arctic, Artesian, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Hot Springs, Sundance, Marquis, Bullfrog, and Artesian are all quality manufacturers that stand behind their products. Nordic is super basic, but a quality product and a good company. American Whirlpool (Maax) and Coast are decent middle of the road company's. Never heard of Signature. I place Master along with Cal Spas on my list of brands to avoid.
Warranty means nothing if the company doesn't honor it. Ask me, Jacuzzi Jim, or anyone else who ever dealt with Cal Spas before.
At the end of the day, buy what you like. Just don't get into the mindset that brand x at $7k is as good as brand y at $10k just because they have similar number of jets and pumps. Take it from someone who sold mediocre brands (Cal Spas, Sunrise, Coast, Dynasty) and now sells premium brands like Marquis and now Hot Spring and Caldera, there is a difference in the product and the company behind the product
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I have looked at arctic,artesian,caldera,jaccuzzi,hot springs,sundance,signature,coast,marquis,American whirlpool,bullfrog,nordic, and all are more expensive than master healthy living 7 or twilight 7.25 by 2000. The only ones that even compare are coast,marquis signature,and artesian island elite and all are well over 10k.do not see any better jetting,shell,warranty or insulation in any. Filtration I'll give to coast. Structure to bullfrog.
Filtration to Coast? I would say Hot Springs has the best filtration (no I don’t sell them), insulation is better on either Hot Springs or Caldera, and why Bullfrog as far as structure? Jetting can’t really beat a Marquis. Signature is Junk. I would own in no particular order a Marquis, Sundance, Hot Spring, Artesian, or a Bullfrog. Wouldn’t considerSignature, coast or American whirlpool. Master I don’t think makes a bad Tub but the company itself sucks to deal with. Good luck with your purchase. This is the Healthy living warranty. It’s the same as everybody else’s entry level tubs
https://www.masterspas.com/documents/_warranties/2018/2018-healthy-living-warranty.pdf
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Master seems has four layer foam insulation the big therapy jets especially the 2 foot blasters,a 2.5# 5 to 3" tapered cover, that no other spas at the 8000 price pointf offer.really like marquis celebrity elite but no bench model and mostly small jets and no real foot jets same with artesian.would have to step up to island elite line or marquis signature line to get foot blasters and we'll over 10000 for both. Other tubs such as hot springs,sundance/jaccuzzi, all over priced with proprietary parts. Same with marquis vector
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Thanks for your input and am referencing master twilight's series 7.25 or 8.25. JuSt haven't seen any other brands that can compare to shell,jetting,insulation,cover specs, at the 7k to 8k price point that don't have proprietary parts that really limit choices for longevity of tub maintenance
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Have you actually wet tested any spas yet? If not, then you have no way of knowing what actually feels good.
I have my bias towards Marquis, Hot Spring and Caldera as I either currently sell them or have in the past, but to say them along with Jacuzzi and Sundance are overpriced, I don’t think is an accurate statement.
I don’t honestly care what hot tub you buy, but your basing your opinion on specs, which mean nothing regarding quality and longevity. Find me a 25 year old hot tub that still functions without being completely refurbished, it won’t be a Master Spa.
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Yes I have wet tested jaccuzzi,marquis,bullfrog,Caldera,artesian and hot springs.did not see or feel any jetting that was impressive enough to justify prices.bullfrog was good but no feet jets and to replacing spa packs is expensive. Marquis and artesian were also good but not 10 to 12k good.haven't found anything inferior about a master spa compared to the others mentioned. I have read negative posts and reviews of master spas but also have read negative views and posts about every brand I have mentioned. I beleive if spa is well built with good parts that can be easily accessed from anywhere vs a spa that can only use their parts and are not as well built then to purchase would be asanine. Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place? It isn't for the consumers benefit and that right there tells me their bottom line is their main concern not quality or customer servic. I have read many posts and reviews from many dealers who seem to genuinely care about their product and customer service and can't understand why some others would carry a product with inferior build,jetting,insulation and parts except to screw consumer for money. And maybe posting negative reviews and comments about companies that put money into spa and don't use proprietary parts which ultimately screws consumer.
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Yes I have wet tested jaccuzzi,marquis,bullfrog,Caldera,artesian and hot springs.did not see or feel any jetting that was impressive enough to justify prices.bullfrog was good but no feet jets and to replacing spa packs is expensive. Marquis and artesian were also good but not 10 to 12k good.haven't found anything inferior about a master spa compared to the others mentioned. I have read negative posts and reviews of master spas but also have read negative views and posts about every brand I have mentioned. I beleive if spa is well built with good parts that can be easily accessed from anywhere vs a spa that can only use their parts and are not as well built then to purchase would be asanine. Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place? It isn't for the consumers benefit and that right there tells me their bottom line is their main concern not quality or customer service. I have read many posts and reviews from many dealers who seem to genuinely care about their product and customer service and can't understand why some others would carry a product with inferior build,jetting,insulation and parts except to screw consumer for money. And maybe posting negative reviews and comments about companies that put money into spa and don't use proprietary parts which ultimately screws consumer.
Whats inferior is the company itself and I'd have trouble believing their dealer network is worth much because most long term well schooled dealer avoids them like the plague I'm sure! No on here is going to make a penny off you when they try to give you advice and you have a forum full of pros who are NOT steering you toward a particular brand in a self-serving manner but instead are simply warning you against the one particular brand you seem to have honed in on and that doesn't concern you? Go right ahead, use your experience to tell you what is best out here.
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Master seems has four layer foam insulation the big therapy jets especially the 2 foot blasters,a 2.5# 5 to 3" tapered cover, that no other spas at the 8000 price pointf offer.really like marquis celebrity elite but no bench model and mostly small jets and no real foot jets same with artesian.would have to step up to island elite line or marquis signature line to get foot blasters and we'll over 10000 for both. Other tubs such as hot springs,sundance/jaccuzzi, all over priced with proprietary parts. Same with marquis vector
There covers that come standard are 6/4 1lb foam. They insulate the same way as Marquis. It’s not 4 layers. It’s 1/2 lb icynene. Works good but not 4 layers. $8,000 for a twilight? You are confusing overpriced with a reputation for building quality tubs that are built to last. I’m sure where you are getting your information from. Just remember that Mr Wheatley is a Master dealer so his site feeds you information he wants you to hear.
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Yes I have wet tested jaccuzzi,marquis,bullfrog,Caldera,artesian and hot springs.did not see or feel any jetting that was impressive enough to justify prices.bullfrog was good but no feet jets and to replacing spa packs is expensive. Marquis and artesian were also good but not 10 to 12k good.haven't found anything inferior about a master spa compared to the others mentioned. I have read negative posts and reviews of master spas but also have read negative views and posts about every brand I have mentioned. I beleive if spa is well built with good parts that can be easily accessed from anywhere vs a spa that can only use their parts and are not as well built then to purchase would be asanine. Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place? It isn't for the consumers benefit and that right there tells me their bottom line is their main concern not quality or customer servic. I have read many posts and reviews from many dealers who seem to genuinely care about their product and customer service and can't understand why some others would carry a product with inferior build,jetting,insulation and parts except to screw consumer for money. And maybe posting negative reviews and comments about companies that put money into spa and don't use proprietary parts which ultimately screws consumer.
Proprietary parts are used for a reason. When the manufacturer controls the parts that go into their spa, then they control the quality. And if we want to complain about proprietary, try finding Master Spas filters. Those EcoPur filters can only be sold by an authorized Master Spas retailer or service station.
We can agree to disagree then regarding therapy. Having sat in over 80 hot tubs in my life, I can personally tell the difference from what I consider a premium brand compared to a non-premium. A Marquis Signature series, Caldera Utopia, Hot Spring Highlife all to me feel much better than any Dynasty, Cal Spa, or Maax I ever sat in. I have never been in a Twilight, but was underwhelmed in the two Legend Series Masters I had been in. To each their own.
You seem very set in your opinion and while I really disagree with most of your points, I hope you have good luck with your Master Spa and that your expectations are met.
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Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place?
It's for better business. Innovation. Capitalism. Why doesn't Ford share all their patents and tech with Chevy? Why doesn't Apple share all theirs with Samsung?
This is a bad argument against people who innovate. If you take away reasons to innovate, then you get stagnation... which results nothing good. We'd still have suitcases for cell phones and cars with crash test guaranteed to kill you.
It's not like parts aren't readily available either. Just because I sell Hot Spring or Bullfrog... you don't necessarily need to buy the part through me. You could find only about a billion different retailers for whatever part you need.
Great example: A Balboa control board can can cost anywhere for $200 to $650. A Hot Spring can cost anywhere from $250 to $500. What is the difference? Reliability? The same I'd argue.
Don't think the parts are inaccessible. They are anything but that.
Master Spas is a pretty good hot tub (IMHO) but the company sucks. There are a lot of other hot tub companies I would choose to represent rather than those guys. But if you like little support and high pressure sales... go for it! ;)
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I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting I also have visited others as well but do not put too much faith in them because of companies that post their own comments, same as trying to sell something on craigslist and get flooded by people wanting to sell it for you. I have had a connection to the pool and spa industry in one way or the other for 30 years. I have done my own research ie wentry to every local dealers in area and wet tested the ones I like. I also experienced every shady tactic that one expects from a used car salesman. HeaRd every argument about quality,craftsmanship,history,innovation and whatever else these salesman could regurgitate from the seminars from the manufacturer they could remember. Which surprisingly is not much.I also saw some real pretty tubs with all the bells and whistles that one could wantfor whatever dealer wanted to charge. Seems to me in my humble opinion that it comes down to build,components,insulation,quality and warranty. I thought that artesian,marquis bullfrog and coast at the top. I try to buy local and have read all the horror stories of master and dealer,even watched the video and it's scary stuff.it still doesn't seem to be a bad tub. That said your right it's my choice and I hope I choosee well. I do want to thank everyone for input,advice,suggestion and genuine concern for someone to get the best and not get hosed! Over an d Out
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I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting
Make no mistake. He is a great marketer for Master Spas.
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I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting
Make no mistake. He is a great marketer for Master Spas.
Its the "never let the truth get in the way of a good Marketing plan" approach!
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I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting
Make no mistake. He is a great marketer for Master Spas.
Yep, he's well spoken and a very good salesman. Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s. He's also a retailer that sells one brand only and is a complete and total shill for that brand. He doesn't like to talk about that part much though. Unfortunately, I'm seeing more and more people who have bought his pitch as of late. And that's what it is, just another sales pitch.
And by the way, master does not have a 2.5# foam density cover.
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Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s
What is total BS?
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I watched a video recently of his on control boards.
He thinks highly of himself, enough to give ratings and people to take his word for it.
A couple of his opinions that are complete BS:
"Anyone who makes a proprietary part is evil and designing something inferior and are only looking to screw over the customer."
"Balboa is the best, and Gecko is #2.... but it's not good enough to say #2... they are like... way down to number 5 or 6, and Balboa takes the #1,2,3,4 slots."
Of course, there is no data supporting what he thinks above. He says it convincingly enough. His first statement is anti-capitalism. He wants a monopoly I guess, which would be terrible. Balboa is great, but I haven't seen ANY warranty differences in Gecko packs I've installed.
This is like saying... Apple is definitively better than Samsung... It's really not a fact... it's an opinion.
Or Ford is better than Ram. Or Twitter is better than Instagram. Or Sherwin Williams is better than Dunn-Edwards.
Basically, take what he says with a serious grain of salt. When you mix a bit of truth with lies... it's powerful and dangerous!
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Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s
What is total BS?
I know what that you looked at Marquis before you bought your Sundance. Read his thoughts on microsilk. News flash to him it’s not a chemical system. He acts like he is in the know with tons of manufacturers but he really knows Master well and that’s about it. He also accuses every brand of spinning facts to support what they are selling. It’s the exact same thing he does. Master isn’t a terrible brand by any means but not what he makes them out to be
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I agree with the above statements. Another one that gets me is that generally speaking he makes it sound like Hot Spring is not worth considering and Master is the best in the industry. I've personally sold both brands over the years and currently sell neither. If you were to offer me a Hot Spring or similarly priced or featured Master Spa, I would not even think twice about taking the Hot Spring. Their dealer/customer support is possibly the best in the industry. It's certainly among the best. Master was a nightmare to work with. H.S. went above and beyond constantly. I can't speak highly enough of my experience with them.
Hot Spring reliability was also considerably better. We had a higher failure rate with Master and took a lot longer to get worse service from them. Hot Spring has been a pioneer and innovator in this industry for 40+ years. Master is just building a component spa with the worst cabinet available and pretty good quality components made by other people that they piece together. Hot Spring designs a spa from the ground up with all of the components meant to work in cohesion. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. You can't do that as well when you just assemble other people's components. Sure, some of the parts may be more expensive but it's not some nefarious plot like h.t. university claims.
He also says you need to have a hand rolled fiberglass shell and any other way is unacceptable. That is absolute garbage. The lowest failure rate in our industry is probably the shell. There are a variety of ways to build a good shell and when done right, it doesn't matter. If you are giving more than a modicum of weight shell construction as a determining factor in your purchase, you're not doing it right.
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight because both of these brands are my competitors. Having sold both, I can tell you that master is not in the same league as hot spring. It's not even close. Their jets are more therapeutic, better filtration, more energy efficient, better customer support.... I could go on and on. And none of this even mentions their sanctioning of the shadiest sales tactics in our industry and obfuscating the nature of their relationship with the traveling circus. Chris at hot tub university is a well spoken, knowledgeable guy who is a shill for master spas. He provides just enough objective, quality information to be able to fool a lot of people into believing his "sales pitch". That whole website is a well crafted sales pitch for Master Spas, the one and only brand he sells at his dealership.
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Finally figured out having a local dealers that you like vs someone far away is soooo much better. My two final choices are the Hollywood elite,full foam,in line filter,lifter and delivery 7500 vs v84 microsilk and same 9000. Or bullfrog r6 6995 no ozone or lifter and 8499 for r7. Both costco prices withe 7 yr warranty. The one pump on r6 really seems weak if more than 2 in tub and are the other non jetpack jets any good? Wet tested but didn't notice or forgot my bad. Any input would be greatly appreciated thanks.
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2019 on the Hollywood elite btw
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Finally figured out having a local dealers that you like vs someone far away is soooo much better. My two final choices are the Hollywood elite,full foam,in line filter,lifter and delivery 7500 vs v84 microsilk and same 9000. Or bullfrog r6 6995 no ozone or lifter and 8499 for r7. Both costco prices withe 7 yr warranty. The one pump on r6 really seems weak if more than 2 in tub and are the other non jetpack jets any good? Wet tested but didn't notice or forgot my bad. Any input would be greatly appreciated thanks.
Looking at some good tubs. I’m not privy to BF prices but I do sell Marquis. I actually prefer the Elite models unless you are really sold on Microsilk. With all those options on the Hollywood Elite I’m about $1400 more the. What you are being quoted. Vector 84 I’m he same without Microsilk which I sell for $1700. So seems like you are getting good prices. Even the R7 I think that price is pretty good
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Thanks hot tub guy and since you sell marquis maybe you could help with questions about running both pumps at the same time I beleive salesman said some thing about not being able to and also does it have the durabase. Also do you know cover specs? And average cost with full foam generally.I also read that warranty states that trip rate is applicable if it is some distance and also rising fuel prices? WTF . Sorry about that what is standard warranty and how much is covered.only wet tested v84 and also wondering if neck jets are good and I know they only do gpm but what does that translate to horsepower for pumps. Thank you
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Thanks hot tub guy and since you sell marquis maybe you could help with questions about running both pumps at the same time I beleive salesman said some thing about not being able to and also does it have the durabase. Also do you know cover specs? And average cost with full foam generally.I also read that warranty states that trip rate is applicable if it is some distance and also rising fuel prices? WTF . Sorry about that what is standard warranty and how much is covered.only wet tested v84 and also wondering if neck jets are good and I know they only do gpm but what does that translate to horsepower for pumps. Thank you
You can run both pumps and heater at same time if you have it wired 50 amp. If it’s wired 30
Amp you can only run one pump In low speed with heat. Most always wire 50 amp
Does not have a durabase it has a sheet across bottom of tub.
Cover specs are 4”-2.5” taper 1.5 lb foam though you can get the 2 lb foam. I typically order in the tub with the upgrade cover
Depending on climate and use in the cold months you should t be more then 50-60 dollars a month I. The coldest months and much cheaper in the warmer months. I have a Resort (Marquis) and it probably averages $25-$30 per month over the year (I’m in Mass)
You can usually negotiate trip charges into your contract. I don’t typically charge them unless you live more then a hour from my shop. Warranty doesn’t cover diagnostic but if the dealer stocks enough parts he should be able to fix most things in the same trip
Warranty covers pumps, heaters, electronics for 3 years parts and labor
Neck Jets I would say are what you make of them. I like them but I have others who don’t think they are strong enough. Very much a personal opinion
2 HP pumps both 2 speed.
One other add on is the equipment as far as pumps, heater, pc board is the same equipment used on the signature tubs which come with a 5 year warranty. We don’t have a very high warranty call on Marquis tubs at all.
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Thanks hot tub guy and since you sell marquis maybe you could help with questions about running both pumps at the same time I beleive salesman said some thing about not being able to and also does it have the durabase. Also do you know cover specs? And average cost with full foam generally.I also read that warranty states that trip rate is applicable if it is some distance and also rising fuel prices? WTF . Sorry about that what is standard warranty and how much is covered.only wet tested v84 and also wondering if neck jets are good and I know they only do gpm but what does that translate to horsepower for pumps. Thank you
Cuddle I don't think any of us are qualified to tell you how the feel of a particular tub is. You have to discover that on your own. Everyone is different.
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Thanks for all the detailed info hottubguy! Do you think a floor model as in one they took to fair or to costco should be d8scounted and if so how much? Tman thank you for your response also can't wet test the Hollywood elite or bullfrog r6 but did test a7 and vector. Dealer said r6 seats are lower than r7 and most would tend to sit with legs out and could make footwell cramped if more than 2 or so. Any thoughts and upgrade on r6 for pump is 700 and jetpacks at time of purchase are 375. Upgrade from r6 to r7 is 1500. Cost is concern 7500 otd or 9200 otd and hollywood elite 8000 otd but lounge takes up so much room. Great tub though. Any chance of Vegas elite soon?
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Fairs are different then Costco I would say. Fairs are typically outside and sometimes the tubs can take a bit of a beating. Look over tub and see what kind of condition it’s in. Make a offer worst thing they can say is no. Costco is in a store so the tubs should be fine. I wouldn’t expect much of a discount on that