Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Jtd1216 on March 19, 2018, 10:28:01 pm
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Hey everyone,
New to the forum! We've never owned a hot tub before, and in search of one for our back patio. We're trying to figure out where to start and Jacuzzi is the only brand we've heard of (told you we're new to hot tubs!). If you had to list the top 3-5 brands for us to start looking at for reliability and quality, what would they be? Is Jacuzzi even a good option? Are there better brands out there? Sorry for the newbie questions, but much of what's coming up in our research is biased and we don't know where to turn. Thanks in advance!
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Start by telling us what brands are sold in your town or nearby areas? There is a lot to be said for local dealer before and after the sale.
Secondly give us a price range you are thinking?
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Welcome to the forum. I'll second Bud's post above mine. Jacuzzi is a good brand.
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In alphabetical order, I would go Arctic, Artesian, Bullfrog, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, and Sundance as my top brands. Go to the website of each and put in your zip code to see if you have a local dealer. No dealer = irrelevant brand for you. Research your dealers because they are almost as important as the brand. Go from there.
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In alphabetical order, I would go Arctic, Artesian, Bullfrog, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, and Sundance as my top brands. Go to the website of each and put in your zip code to see if you have a local dealer. No dealer = irrelevant brand for you. Research your dealers because they are almost as important as the brand. Go from there.
Excellent advice on brands and use of the dealer locator.
How many brands you have available will depend on where you are, someone in the Dakotas may have very few options while someone in a Chicago suburb may have all those brands available.
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In alphabetical order, I would go Arctic, Artesian, Bullfrog, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, and Sundance as my top brands. Go to the website of each and put in your zip code to see if you have a local dealer. No dealer = irrelevant brand for you. Research your dealers because they are almost as important as the brand. Go from there.
I would add Beachcomber to make a solid top ten.
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WOW! Thanks for all the help everyone. This is a great way to get started. OK so I did what you said!
Top rated dealers in my area based on reviews: Bullfrog, D1, Hotspring,
Decent rated dealers (Mixed-reviews) in my area: Caldera (this dealer specializes in hearth/fireplace though), Jacuzzi
As far as budget.... OK, so we've had a bit of a rude awakening after reading some pricing on this forum, and even a little discouraged. We are planning a large patio project in our backyard, something we've always wanted. We've also wanted a hot tub--my wife especially.
As I mentioned, we've never owned a hot tub before, so don't really know how far beyond entry level we'd need. We like to entertain, but mostly want this for me and her to relax and also for some hydro therapy, because we're both fairly active and could use that.
So, originally (and please don't laugh haha) I was thinking, "oh how much could they be? 4? maybe 5-thousand?" Yikes... I'm seeing a lot of numbers in the 8-12 range on here and that's just not in the cards for us.
I'm wondering if those are more for mid range people who might be getting into their second hot tub and want to level up. That's where we could really use some help next.
Thanks so much again for your help, everyone! Truly appreciated!!
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WOW! Thanks for all the help everyone. This is a great way to get started. OK so I did what you said!
Top rated dealers in my area based on reviews: Bullfrog, D1, Hotspring,
Decent rated dealers (Mixed-reviews) in my area: Caldera (this dealer specializes in hearth/fireplace though), Jacuzzi
As far as budget.... OK, so we've had a bit of a rude awakening after reading some pricing on this forum, and even a little discouraged. We are planning a large patio project in our backyard, something we've always wanted. We've also wanted a hot tub--my wife especially.
As I mentioned, we've never owned a hot tub before, so don't really know how far beyond entry level we'd need. We like to entertain, but mostly want this for me and her to relax and also for some hydro therapy, because we're both fairly active and could use that.
So, originally (and please don't laugh haha) I was thinking, "oh how much could they be? 4? maybe 5-thousand?" Yikes... I'm seeing a lot of numbers in the 8-12 range on here and that's just not in the cards for us.
I'm wondering if those are more for mid range people who might be getting into their second hot tub and want to level up. That's where we could really use some help next.
Thanks so much again for your help, everyone! Truly appreciated!!
In hot tubs, you will get what you pay for. Be careful not to pay for what you won't get..... In other words, service is just as important as quality. Also, you will see some "flashy" tubs at big box stores or "home shows" that don't have a local dealer. Buyer beware. You are better buying a Bullfrog X series than some other bigger tubs with more "JETS", more "PUMPS", etc. Or buy a Hot Spot from Hot springs over some other big box store "special". Insulation is really important. Quality components is really important. Do the manufactures stand behind the dealer? Most of the reputable ones like Bullfrog, Hotsprings and Jacuzzi (same company) do. Most importantly, YOU need to do your research. Don't depend on dealer. All dealers have their take on the brands they carry. That is all well and good. Have your take on brands based on your research. Wet test. You will be shocked how your opinion will change from tub to tub.
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WOW! Thanks for all the help everyone. This is a great way to get started. OK so I did what you said!
Top rated dealers in my area based on reviews: Bullfrog, D1, Hotspring,
Decent rated dealers (Mixed-reviews) in my area: Caldera (this dealer specializes in hearth/fireplace though), Jacuzzi
As far as budget.... OK, so we've had a bit of a rude awakening
1) People VERY often go in blind with a budget they think is in line with what they want only to find out otherwise so your budget awakening is not unique.
2) You've listed 5 very good brands all of which will have top of the line models over $10k but those same companies will have mid line models where they take out a lot of the bells and whistles to meet a lower budget. You've seen people here talk about Bullfrog or Hot Spring or ... models at prices you aren't prepared to go to but those same people had lower priced options they could have considered at those same dealers so don't be totally discouraged, go visit and see what your options are.
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WOW! Thanks for all the help everyone. This is a great way to get started. OK so I did what you said!
Top rated dealers in my area based on reviews: Bullfrog, D1, Hotspring,
Decent rated dealers (Mixed-reviews) in my area: Caldera (this dealer specializes in hearth/fireplace though), Jacuzzi
As far as budget.... OK, so we've had a bit of a rude awakening after reading some pricing on this forum, and even a little discouraged. We are planning a large patio project in our backyard, something we've always wanted. We've also wanted a hot tub--my wife especially.
As I mentioned, we've never owned a hot tub before, so don't really know how far beyond entry level we'd need. We like to entertain, but mostly want this for me and her to relax and also for some hydro therapy, because we're both fairly active and could use that.
So, originally (and please don't laugh haha) I was thinking, "oh how much could they be? 4? maybe 5-thousand?" Yikes... I'm seeing a lot of numbers in the 8-12 range on here and that's just not in the cards for us.
I'm wondering if those are more for mid range people who might be getting into their second hot tub and want to level up. That's where we could really use some help next.
Thanks so much again for your help, everyone! Truly appreciated!!
In hot tubs, you will get what you pay for. Be careful not to pay for what you won't get..... In other words, service is just as important as quality. Also, you will see some "flashy" tubs at big box stores or "home shows" that don't have a local dealer. Buyer beware. You are better buying a Bullfrog X series than some other bigger tubs with more "JETS", more "PUMPS", etc. Or buy a Hot Spot from Hot springs over some other big box store "special". Insulation is really important. Quality components is really important. Do the manufactures stand behind the dealer? Most of the reputable ones like Bullfrog, Hotsprings and Jacuzzi (same company) do. Most importantly, YOU need to do your research. Don't depend on dealer. All dealers have their take on the brands they carry. That is all well and good. Have your take on brands based on your research. Wet test. You will be shocked how your opinion will change from tub to tub.
Bullfrog, Jacuzzi and Hot Springs are not the same company. Jacuzzi, Sundance, Thermospa's and D1 yes. Hot Springs, Caldera and freeflow are all one company as well. Bullfrog is independent.
And many times Dealers/companies like the one I work for, go above and beyond to what the manufacturer offers to take care of the customer.
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Thanks! So if I'm understanding everyone correctly, I should start to go look and wet test these hot tubs to see what we like, and that these brands will likely have something in every price range?
For example, the Jacuzzi 200 series only has classic jets and some basic features. Are they still a quality and reliable hot tub? Jacuzzi isn't one of or top brands per our dealer homework. So, does Bullfrog, D1 and Hot Spring make a model you can recommend that's in our price range yet still reliable and quality? Or am I way low in the $4-5k range? What about a best bang-for-your-buck model for those brands?
Thank you guys!! So helpful!
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$4-5k will be a difficult price to find on any of the top manufacturers. As a Hot Spring and Caldera dealer, I can only comment on their pricing. You will likely need to up the budget into the $6-7k range for the entry level Hot Spot or Vacanza Series. I would expect the same for the Bullfrog X Series and D1 @home Series, but cannot confirm.
Each manufacturer will have an MSRP. Then, the dealer will set their pricing anywhere below that due to a handful of factors such as overhead, local market, what they include with their packages, shipping cost, etc.
Unless that Jacuzzi model is perfect for you, I would be hesitant to buy from a dealer that you are not comfortable with. Every hot tub will need service at some point and your local dealer is who does that unless you are a DIY type person.
Start with the dealers you are comfortable with. Dry test the models you are interested in. Once you have narrowed it down then you can request a wet test.
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Thank you! I just spoke to a dealer this morning and he did mention if I wanted to be in the $6k price range, to look at the Vita brand, specifically this model-500 Series Vita Joli: Have you heard of this before?
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
LOL, drink much koolaid? I can give you 3-4 reasons the engineering is flawed.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
LOL, drink much koolaid? I can give you 3-4 reasons the engineering is flawed.
Well, I for one would be interested in your opinion (because that's what it is) on 3 or 4 reasons why the engineering is flawed.
I guess we will see. Mine hasn't been delivered yet, but I pulled the trigger on a R6L last week for a great price, but decided to put down another 2K and get an A7L. Bigger, more jetpaks, the color I like (titanium shell), ozone and circulation pump. Still a great price.
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Vita and Maax are the same company. At $6k, I think a Vita is probably equal to anything else out there. Not the greatest insulation and I assume steel frame, which I don’t care for, but I think it would be a solid hot tub at that price.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
Opinions are just that, opinions. Bullfrog makes a quality product, but plastic frames and jet packs don’t make them engineering marvels. I sell Hot Spring and Caldera and used to sell Marquis. They all acknowledge the push Bullfrog is making, but I don’t think anyone is afraid thinking they need to play catch-up. Everyone has their own thing, jet packs are bullfrogs thing.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
LOL, drink much koolaid? I can give you 3-4 reasons the engineering is flawed.
You say that, but you never actually provide any good reasons. Bullfrog spas are very well engineered.
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I just purchased a Bullfrog R5L for $5800 which is more in line with your price range. I have had it a few months and love it. It isn't a real large tub. I actually just downsized from a 6 seater to this one. It would be a perfect size for you and your wife. They say you can seat 3. There are 3 seats but it would be a bit crowded. I also love the jetpacks and power of the jets. As a matter of fact I have to turn them down because I find them too powerful.
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Awesome, lots of great input here. Thanks again guys. We're no longer discouraged and going to start visiting dealers. I'll report back what we find and hopefully we can pick one that fits our budget!
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Here's one good reason. And I have asked several questions of BF folks and never gotten any answers either so...... But anyone who says I never provide good reasons I will be slow and precise. As a 30 year plumber water movement has been close to me for a long time.
1. Cavitation is an important part of all plumbing. It is designed out as much as possible because it is noisy and it reduces volume pressure. The most common place for cavitation to occur is in the distribution manifolds, all tubs have them to disburse the water. Where are the distribution manifolds on a BF spa? Yes, that's right in the jet pac's next to your ears.
As a long time tub owner and repair guy I have looked at and serviced many BF tubs and recently had a chance to soak in a 2017 big BF, loved it. Great tub, not by any means an engineering marvel. Been in tubs that felt better, been in quieter tubs.
Want more reasons or should we not? All I was doing is letting our posters know there was BS a float.
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Are there brands that require less maintenance than others ( within the options I have, Bullfrog, D1, Hot Springs)? Approximately how much can I budget for ongoing operation costs for a hot tub? I'm assuming water conditioning, electric costs, etc.
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Here's one good reason. And I have asked several questions of BF folks and never gotten any answers either so...... But anyone who says I never provide good reasons I will be slow and precise. As a 30 year plumber water movement has been close to me for a long time.
1. Cavitation is an important part of all plumbing. It is designed out as much as possible because it is noisy and it reduces volume pressure. The most common place for cavitation to occur is in the distribution manifolds, all tubs have them to disburse the water. Where are the distribution manifolds on a BF spa? Yes, that's right in the jet pac's next to your ears.
As a long time tub owner and repair guy I have looked at and serviced many BF tubs and recently had a chance to soak in a 2017 big BF, loved it. Great tub, not by any means an engineering marvel. Been in tubs that felt better, been in quieter tubs.
Want more reasons or should we not? All I was doing is letting our posters know there was BS a float.
Tman - you're actually wrong and using an incorrect term. Being a P.E. working in the field of fluid dynamics, cavitation occurs at the inlet to the pump, nearest to the impeller, where suction pressure exceeds the fluid vapor pressure. You are being confused with entrapped air within the positive pressure water stream where microscopic air bubbles gather and create noise. It's not possible (fluid dynamics-wise) to cavitate in a positively pressurized fluid pathway.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
Bullfrog being different helps them at the point of sale but nothing about them makes the other brands irrelevant as you've somehow concluded. Its not like they are peddling the new combustible engine vehicle while everyone else is still selling horse and buggies lol.
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I don't own one (yet...) but I don't see how people can steer away from the engineering (from a fellow engineer) of the Bullfrogs!? 100% wood free and jet packs to change out.
I looked at Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Bullfrog (and threw in Viking). I own an old Sundance, but right now, Bullfrog, IMO, is where it's at, and the others are going to have a tough go for the next few years keeping up.
I am a Bullfrog believer as well (just bought an A series). And yes, the Jet Packs do make a difference. Buying extra Jetpacks is not practical and does not make sense. However, we change ours around. Just put the tub on hold and we swap one from the Lounge to another area. Yes, I too like the synthetic foundation. I wanted to steer clear of wood as my last tub had a cedar exterior and wood frame. It held up pretty good, but, I am a maintenance free guy. I AM NOT banging on others that have wood frames. I will just tell you, that given a choice of a soundly engineered extrusion or wood, I would take the extrusion 100 out of 100 times. Our jets are so powerful we keep them turned down. Lots of other great tubs discussed here. It's just when all was said and done, technology, comfort, options and design, Bullfrog was the best choice for US. Again, lots of great choices out there, but find what's best for you.
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Here's one good reason. And I have asked several questions of BF folks and never gotten any answers either so...... But anyone who says I never provide good reasons I will be slow and precise. As a 30 year plumber water movement has been close to me for a long time.
1. Cavitation is an important part of all plumbing. It is designed out as much as possible because it is noisy and it reduces volume pressure. The most common place for cavitation to occur is in the distribution manifolds, all tubs have them to disburse the water. Where are the distribution manifolds on a BF spa? Yes, that's right in the jet pac's next to your ears.
As a long time tub owner and repair guy I have looked at and serviced many BF tubs and recently had a chance to soak in a 2017 big BF, loved it. Great tub, not by any means an engineering marvel. Been in tubs that felt better, been in quieter tubs.
Want more reasons or should we not? All I was doing is letting our posters know there was BS a float.
Tman - you're actually wrong and using an incorrect term. Being a P.E. working in the field of fluid dynamics, cavitation occurs at the inlet to the pump, nearest to the impeller, where suction pressure exceeds the fluid vapor pressure. You are being confused with entrapped air within the positive pressure water stream where microscopic air bubbles gather and create noise. It's not possible (fluid dynamics-wise) to cavitate in a positively pressurized fluid pathway.
You better read up a bit. Cavitation happens during fluid split also. You are correct one form of cavitaion happens on suction side during air introduction.
What is the term if it is different? And that doesn't change the premise.
Wrong or using an incorrect term?
90% less plumbing than what tub?
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up to 90% less plumbing than other hot tubs with a similar size and jet count. What's not to get? It's true. There is significantly less plumbing in a 7' bullfrog with 60 jets than aother 7' with 60 jets.
I mean, it makes sense. In most hot tubs every single jet requires a hole in the shell and a plumbing line. In a Bullfrog you only need one hole and one plumbing line per seat, rather than per jet. There is one jetpak that has 42 jets, yet only one plumbing connection. It's a simple and true concept. I won't argue the merits of the design, but it is a plain and simple fact that there will be less plumbing on a bullfrog with x jets than another hot tub with x jets.
Also, lol at arguing with an engineer in the field of fluid dynamics about fluid dynamics.
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Hi all. I am a new person to the hot tub wold as well (Finnish wife so always had saunas). We too are interested in a budget friendly first time purchase. I have recently visited my Bullfrog dealer up in the Great white North and he suggested I look into PASSION SPAS as an alternative to Bullfrog. They seem legit to me. Any thoughts or experiences with this product folks? TIA
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I've seen passion spas and they look super cool, but I cannot attest to quality, reliability, energy efficiency, or therapy. They have some neat ideas and I'm super intrigued by them.
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up to 90% less plumbing than other hot tubs with a similar size and jet count. What's not to get? It's true. There is significantly less plumbing in a 7' bullfrog with 60 jets than aother 7' with 60 jets.
I mean, it makes sense. In most hot tubs every single jet requires a hole in the shell and a plumbing line. In a Bullfrog you only need one hole and one plumbing line per seat, rather than per jet. There is one jetpak that has 42 jets, yet only one plumbing connection. It's a simple and true concept. I won't argue the merits of the design, but it is a plain and simple fact that there will be less plumbing on a bullfrog with x jets than another hot tub with x jets.
Also, lol at arguing with an engineer in the field of fluid dynamics about fluid dynamics.
And it seems BF is struggling a bit with that one big customer accessible hole in the shell. Those big o-rings seem to struggle.
I think over 30 years of plumbing qualifies me. I have changed many fluid dynamic engineered designs to work in the real world. Installation always trumps design.
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up to 90% less plumbing than other hot tubs with a similar size and jet count. What's not to get? It's true. There is significantly less plumbing in a 7' bullfrog with 60 jets than aother 7' with 60 jets.
I mean, it makes sense. In most hot tubs every single jet requires a hole in the shell and a plumbing line. In a Bullfrog you only need one hole and one plumbing line per seat, rather than per jet. There is one jetpak that has 42 jets, yet only one plumbing connection. It's a simple and true concept. I won't argue the merits of the design, but it is a plain and simple fact that there will be less plumbing on a bullfrog with x jets than another hot tub with x jets.
Also, lol at arguing with an engineer in the field of fluid dynamics about fluid dynamics.
And it seems BF is struggling a bit with that one big customer accessible hole in the shell. Those big o-rings seem to struggle.
That's not true at all, at least in my experience and we sell hundreds per year. We rarely have an issue with the o-ring or gasket. And if we do, it's a simple easy fix that doesn't require pulling cabinet panels and digging through foam like most jet gasket's.
The simple fact is, Bullfrog builds a great hot tub that has some cool efficiencies not found in a traditional hot tub. You can pick what jets you want, and what seat you want to put them in. If you change your mind, it takes 10 seconds to switch. There are less holes in the shell and less plumbing than a hot tub with a comparable number of jets. Whether or not you think that has merit is fine, but it is indeed true. When they come out with a new jetpak, you can update your hot tub with it for a nominal fee. If your therapy needs change, you can change the jetting in your spa to meet those needs. The jets also have a great feel and very therapeutic. The oscillator jetpak is my favorite all time jet and I've been doing this for almost a quarter century now. I've worked with most of the big brands out there over the years, or at least had exposure to them.
Your disdain for Bullfrog is so weird to me. They make a great hot tub that is unlike anything else out there. I'm also unbiased enough to recommend other brands because I try really hard to apply my experience objectively, but there is no arguing that Bullfrog are great hot tubs and among the best our industry has to offer.
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Your disdain for Bullfrog is so weird to me. They make a great hot tub that is unlike anything else out there. I'm also unbiased enough to recommend other brands because I try really hard to apply my experience objectively, but there is no arguing that Bullfrog are great hot tubs and among the best our industry has to offer.
It's not a disdain for BF. I'll say it again Sam and I will say it slower so you understand, B F m a k e s a f i n e t u b, nothing special or better than about 10 other brands.
You can puff it up all you want and a ton of people will buy into the BS. But not me and a ton of others who see through the puff.
They don't feel better, they don't have more power, they aren't more efficient, they don't last longer and they don't cost less. They Got Nothing.
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Your disdain for Bullfrog is so weird to me. They make a great hot tub that is unlike anything else out there. I'm also unbiased enough to recommend other brands because I try really hard to apply my experience objectively, but there is no arguing that Bullfrog are great hot tubs and among the best our industry has to offer.
It's not a disdain for BF. I'll say it again Sam and I will say it slower so you understand, B F m a k e s a f i n e t u b, nothing special or better than about 10 other brands.
You can puff it up all you want and a ton of people will buy into the BS. But not me and a ton of others who see through the puff.
They don't feel better, they don't have more power, they aren't more efficient, they don't last longer and they don't cost less. They Got Nothing.
You are absolutely wrong here.
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I appreciate the spirited debate guys! It has definitely give me some insight to our purchasing process. TMan, I was looking at bullfrog. What other brand in my selection of dealers should I check out in your opinion? I like to keep all my options open.
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It's not a disdain for BF. I'll say it again Sam and I will say it slower so you understand, B F m a k e s a f i n e t u b, nothing special or better than about 10 other brands.
So why, Mister Tman, do you not say why the Jet Packs or other attributes of Bullfrog are 'nothing special than about 10 other brands'?
You sell all of them, apparently, but I wet tested them, and the attributes that drove me to buy a Bullfrog seem better to me. Isn't that what matters? I'm the customer.
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This will be my only comment on this thread. I think Bullfrog makes a fantastic tub. It might be the right Tub for some and others might find a better choice. To buyers remember it comes down to the hot tub and DEALERSHIP it’s bought from. You could have better luck with a number of brands if the dealer is a stand up dealer. I guess I’m lucky in the sense that the bullfrog dealers in my area don’t really effect me all that much because they are sub par dealers. Look at the whole picture when shopping for a new tub.
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I guess I’m lucky in the sense that the bullfrog dealers in my area don’t really effect me all that much because they are sub par dealers.
I'm curious how you know/define that. "Sub-par dealers"? So how are you better and how are they worse? Those kinds of statements mean exactly nothing unless you back them up with facts. Or at the very least, with examples.
But we won't get a reply from you because you said you wouldn't reply. Not surprising, because why would you want to be called out on what you said.
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The other comment I would make, in response to all these people saying to buy from a "dependable dealer", is that sometimes you don't find that out until after the fact. In my case, I bought from a dealership that has been around for a long time, and worked with a person who I really like and trust and believe will serve me well if there ever come to be issues. But no issues have come about yet, so it's hard to gauge who will really be there when the rubber meets the road, if it ever does.
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I guess I’m lucky in the sense that the bullfrog dealers in my area don’t really effect me all that much because they are sub par dealers.
I'm curious how you know/define that. "Sub-par dealers"? So how are you better and how are they worse? Those kinds of statements mean exactly nothing unless you back them up with facts. Or at the very least, with examples.
But we won't get a reply from you because you said you wouldn't reply. Not surprising, because why would you want to be called out on what you said.
Because I do what I say I’m going to when I say I’m going to. I offer great products at competitive prices and my companies service is second to none. In my area my online reviews reflect this while a good amount of my competitors reviews reflect on there lack of customer service. It’s pretty easy to do research on the dealer you are purchasing from these days with social media, google, and all the other sites like that out there
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I appreciate the spirited debate guys! It has definitely give me some insight to our purchasing process. TMan, I was looking at bullfrog. What other brand in my selection of dealers should I check out in your opinion? I like to keep all my options open.
A bunch of good brands were mentioned in this thread. All good brands including BF. I personally think the Marquis HK jets blow away anything BF has to offer as far as feel. I also think the design and engineering of D1 is better. But remember my opinion is just that. I have recently had the opportunity to wet test an A8, it had been a while since I sat in any brand. The things I mentioned are based on that. Water distribution to close to your ears is bad. Most brands bury the distribution in the tubs insulation. They say things like less plumbing, less plumbing than what? And how does less plumbing make it better? They say full power all the time at all pacs, that's impossible. They say no diverters, The way they lay out the tub and the nature of the design that is also false and misleading.
There is only one advantage to BF and that is the ability to choose the pacs you want in the locations you want before you get it home. No one is going to buy extra pacs and switch them around. It's easier and better to just slide over to another seat for a different feel rather than move a pac, all tubs you can do this.
Over the years there have been just as many BF problems on this forum as any other brand. Including o-ring problems.
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I appreciate the spirited debate guys! It has definitely give me some insight to our purchasing process. TMan, I was looking at bullfrog. What other brand in my selection of dealers should I check out in your opinion? I like to keep all my options open.
A bunch of good brands were mentioned in this thread. All good brands including BF. I personally think the Marquis HK jets blow away anything BF has to offer as far as feel. I also think the design and engineering of D1 is better. But remember my opinion is just that. I have recently had the opportunity to wet test an A8, it had been a while since I sat in any brand. The things I mentioned are based on that. Water distribution to close to your ears is bad. Most brands bury the distribution in the tubs insulation. They say things like less plumbing, less plumbing than what? And how does less plumbing make it better? They say full power all the time at all pacs, that's impossible. They say no diverters, The way they lay out the tub and the nature of the design that is also false and misleading.
There is only one advantage to BF and that is the ability to choose the pacs you want in the locations you want before you get it home. No one is going to buy extra pacs and switch them around. It's easier and better to just slide over to another seat for a different feel rather than move a pac, all tubs you can do this.
Over the years there have been just as many BF problems on this forum as any other brand. Including o-ring problems.
I sell extra JetPaks all the time for customers to switch around....I'm not gonna get involved in some stupid tech argument but for those consumers following along all I will say is 1 thing....go find 3-4 brands you like, wet test, then go into the bullfrog dealer and wet test, best jets in the industry and that is why people buy them, I sold almost 125 of them last year and did dozens upon dozens of wet tests...the results speak for themselves "best jetting in the industry" period, end of discussion, I hear it EVERY SINGLE WEEK from consumers shopping/wet testing all the big brands. Ok you guys can get back to arguing fluid dynamics and other crap that doesn't matter at all when buying a spa....the jets matter the most to "premium" buyers
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Thanks BFSM, is that your store in Lakeville? Drove by on Friday.
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Really intrigued to hear the 3 or 4 reasons the engineering is flawed
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Really intrigued to hear the 3 or 4 reasons the engineering is flawed
Good luck with that LOL
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Really intrigued to hear the 3 or 4 reasons the engineering is flawed
Read back. If you don't want to see them you won't.
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To get back on point [Guys, stay on point. This isn't about any of you but about the original poster] I hope that the originator of the thread will do this:
1. See who's in your area. If the brands you've listed are in your area, and can be delivered and serviced by a local dealer, stay within those confines. Don't worry about brands that are not locally represented, as you wont buy anything you wont be able to get delivered and serviced.
2. Read up on the dealer: If their reviews are poor overall, you may want to skip them.
3. Wet test! Its the only way to understand what COMFORT MEANS TO YOU AND ONLY YOU.
4. See what pricing is in your range.
5. If the answer isn't obvious, come back to the forum to try and make sense of whatever it is that you're still not sure about.
Sorry- but sometimes these guys get way off topic. I hope this helps. Good luck moving forward.
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Your right Wiz....I think Zinger needs to start his own thread why he thinks BF is the next best thing since sliced bread as he stated that started this mess.
I would love in on that thread. And maybe we can get one of those illustrious BF engineers in there also.
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Nothing wrong with a good, spirited debate.
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Thanks Wizard of Spas. I was trying to wait it out for these guys to cool their jets and get back to my original post LOL I'm going to try to visit a couple local dealers this week.
I want to try to find something with the "best bang for your buck" in the $6-8k range, with a good balance of quality and features, and that feels most comfortable to us. Looks like according to local dealers, I'd have to find that in Bullfrog, D1 or Hot Springs which all seem to be reputable brands according to the folks on this site.
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Thanks Wizard of Spas. I was trying to wait it out for these guys to cool their jets and get back to my original post LOL I'm going to try to visit a couple local dealers this week.
I want to try to find something with the "best bang for your buck" in the $6-8k range, with a good balance of quality and features, and that feels most comfortable to us. Looks like according to local dealers, I'd have to find that in Bullfrog, D1 or Hot Springs which all seem to be reputable brands according to the folks on this site.
Seems you're on the right track. The original series of steps I posted helps buyers streamline the decision process. See what is even available to purchase first. Then, if you don't know what you want, figure out what you don't want. Then cut the list even further by being a dealer detective.
You're correct- The 3 brands you mentioned are reputable and have a long history in the industry. Pros and cons to all 3 manufacturers (as there is with every manufacturer, even the one I work for), but as noted, wet tests will probably make the decision for you. Afterall, you're buying for comfort and nobody can tell you what is comfortable.
Glad you're all straightened out. Good luck moving forward.
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Thank you so much Wizard! If I may ask, what are the pros and cons of the three brands, even if brief? I think that would help a great deal when I visit them to look.
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Thank you so much Wizard! If I may ask, what are the pros and cons of the three brands, even if brief? I think that would help a great deal when I visit them to look.
In the interest of fairness, b/c I work for a manufacturer, I'll leave it to others who sell the specific products to chime in on what they perceive as negatives/positives about the brand. I'd just prefer to stay professional in that realm of questioning. Apologies for that.
The only fact I will state is that Bullfrog is made in the USA whereas the other two are made in Mexico, if that is something that you prioritize.
There are many insightful and talented forum members who contribute quite frequently to this discussion board who will be able to convey some of the more well-known thoughts on the aforementioned brands, so I have no doubt you'll be able to get your answers swiftly.
[EDIT: Spelling, syntax]
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Not all of Hot Spring is made in Mexico. The Highlife and NXT's are made in California and the Hot Spot and Limelight are Mexico.
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Thank you Wizard. Care to offer any cons of the manufacturer you work for and pros from the brands you don't???? :) That ought to be mighty unbiased!
That's Mexico vs. USA is not a huge priority for me. I don't mind spreading the love throughout the continent. China, that's another story.
I'd love some feedback from other as well, it might give me a good idea what I'm aiming for. For example, one company might be especially known for their energy efficiency, whereas one might be for their jets. I'd be able to prioritize those pros/cons based on my priorities!
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We are also looking at hot tubs. I have heard that Saratoga is a good brand, but it wasn't mentioned at all in this thread. Any thoughts?
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Thank you Wizard. Care to offer any cons of the manufacturer you work for and pros from the brands you don't???? :) That ought to be mighty unbiased!
That's Mexico vs. USA is not a huge priority for me. I don't mind spreading the love throughout the continent. China, that's another story.
I'd love some feedback from other as well, it might give me a good idea what I'm aiming for. For example, one company might be especially known for their energy efficiency, whereas one might be for their jets. I'd be able to prioritize those pros/cons based on my priorities!
My biggest issue with the whole Mexico vs. USA thing, is the USA manufacturers act as if their quality is immensely superior to the Mexican made stuff. That simply isn't the case. Great examples of this is all the garbage made in the USA... such as:
-Clearwater
-Almost everything out of Tennessee which includes: Dr. wellness, Laguana bay, Signature spas, etc
- Cal Spas... oh my gosh... Don't get me started on Cal
Not garbage, but certainly not top tier:
- Maax and Vita
- Strong Spas
- Master Spas (Company is garbage, spas are not all that bad ;))
The bottom line, is the "Made in USA" honestly has been completely and totally abused, not to the fault of great manufacturers such as Bullfrog, Artesian, and Marquis. Abused so much that manufacturers and dealers try to get consumers to make emotional "patriotic" decisions that have almost no merit in terms of how well the thing will perform over the next 10-15 years.
I love the USA... don't get me wrong. I also love my macbook pro I am writing this on. Which isn't built here btw ;) Go off quality, not off where it is made!
TO pwjoshua:
Saratoga makes a good hot tub. Not to much experience with it, however, I know some dealers that have and they have had good luck. I believe they do have different levels of insulation and stuff, so make sure you check that out.
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Thank you Wizard. Care to offer any cons of the manufacturer you work for and pros from the brands you don't???? :) That ought to be mighty unbiased!
That's Mexico vs. USA is not a huge priority for me. I don't mind spreading the love throughout the continent. China, that's another story.
I'd love some feedback from other as well, it might give me a good idea what I'm aiming for. For example, one company might be especially known for their energy efficiency, whereas one might be for their jets. I'd be able to prioritize those pros/cons based on my priorities!
My biggest issue with the whole Mexico vs. USA thing, is the USA manufacturers act as if their quality is immensely superior to the Mexican made stuff. That simply isn't the case. Great examples of this is all the garbage made in the USA... such as:
-Clearwater
-Almost everything out of Tennessee which includes: Dr. wellness, Laguana bay, Signature spas, etc
- Cal Spas... oh my gosh... Don't get me started on Cal
Not garbage, but certainly not top tier:
- Maax and Vita
- Strong Spas
- Master Spas (Company is garbage, spas are not all that bad ;))
The bottom line, is the "Made in USA" honestly has been completely and totally abused, not to the fault of great manufacturers such as Bullfrog, Artesian, and Marquis. Abused so much that manufacturers and dealers try to get consumers to make emotional "patriotic" decisions that have almost no merit in terms of how well the thing will perform over the next 10-15 years.
I love the USA... don't get me wrong. I also love my macbook pro I am writing this on. Which isn't built here btw ;) Go off quality, not off where it is made!
TO pwjoshua:
Saratoga makes a good hot tub. Not to much experience with it, however, I know some dealers that have and they have had good luck. I believe they do have different levels of insulation and stuff, so make sure you check that out.
Good post
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Thank you Wizard. Care to offer any cons of the manufacturer you work for and pros from the brands you don't???? :) That ought to be mighty unbiased!
That's Mexico vs. USA is not a huge priority for me. I don't mind spreading the love throughout the continent. China, that's another story.
I'd love some feedback from other as well, it might give me a good idea what I'm aiming for. For example, one company might be especially known for their energy efficiency, whereas one might be for their jets. I'd be able to prioritize those pros/cons based on my priorities!
My biggest issue with the whole Mexico vs. USA thing, is the USA manufacturers act as if their quality is immensely superior to the Mexican made stuff. That simply isn't the case. Great examples of this is all the garbage made in the USA... such as:
-Clearwater
-Almost everything out of Tennessee which includes: Dr. wellness, Laguana bay, Signature spas, etc
- Cal Spas... oh my gosh... Don't get me started on Cal
Not garbage, but certainly not top tier:
- Maax and Vita
- Strong Spas
- Master Spas (Company is garbage, spas are not all that bad ;))
The bottom line, is the "Made in USA" honestly has been completely and totally abused, not to the fault of great manufacturers such as Bullfrog, Artesian, and Marquis. Abused so much that manufacturers and dealers try to get consumers to make emotional "patriotic" decisions that have almost no merit in terms of how well the thing will perform over the next 10-15 years.
I love the USA... don't get me wrong. I also love my macbook pro I am writing this on. Which isn't built here btw ;) Go off quality, not off where it is made!
TO pwjoshua:
Saratoga makes a good hot tub. Not to much experience with it, however, I know some dealers that have and they have had good luck. I believe they do have different levels of insulation and stuff, so make sure you check that out.
So I get that. And that is a reasoned and rational response. In the spirit of that response, and with respect to you as I in no way think you're uninformed or otherwise not a knowledgeable poster with great insight, do you really fell that its just an emotional pitch or a quality pitch or both? That is just an honest question- Not trying to point-counter-point.
I think its not really a quality issue when relaying US vs Mexico. It seems to me that its more of a jobs (labor laws), economy (keeping money in the country), ecology thing (skirting EPA laws). But I never looked at it from your point of view and hence the "ask". But then that could be an emotional sale. Who knows. I just like hearing about these things from others.
But for fun: You don't have an option to buy an american-made computer so that analogy doesn't work :) [that was totally bratty of me]
[EDIT: SPELLING & CLARIFICATION]
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All of the highest quality electronics come from......................
This can be said for a lot of things. It's the processes and the companies that make a good product not the location of manufacturing.
The best ammunition in the world is made in the USA. It also cost the most.
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All of the highest quality electronics come from......................
This can be said for a lot of things. It's the processes and the companies that make a good product not the location of manufacturing.
The best ammunition in the world is made in the USA. It also cost the most.
This is true. Well put.
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So I get that. And that is a reasoned and rational response. In the spirit of that response, and with respect to you as I in no way think you're uninformed or otherwise not a knowledgeable poster with great insight, do you really fell that its just an emotional pitch or a quality pitch or both? That is just an honest question- Not trying to point-counter-point.
My issue is that many USA manufacturers, not all, abuse the "Made in the USA" mantra. It's misleading to customers to think they are getting top quality stuff... when in fact they are buying literal pieces of crap.
Dr. Wellness is made in the USA, and I feel bad for every poor sucker that got that over say... a Jacuzzi (I do not sell Jacuzzi BTW.)
It's a quality pitch more than anything. At least the way I am seeing it used.
Again, it's not every manufacturer. Or those Manufacturers are all banking on people wearing MAGA hats ;)
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I sell both. Made in America (Marquis) and made in Mexico (Caldera). There are things about both I like. Quality on each I would say is equal. Warranty claims roughly equal. Before I sold Caldera my second line was another tub made in the US. They were horrible Both quality wise and the company itself was a nightmare to deal with
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Hi Everyone! I’d like to report back with some info and hopefully get some feedback from you guys. I absolutely LOVED the dealer I visited today. Such trustworthy folks and really knew their stuff. They offer both Bullfrog and Vita brands. They quoted me the following:
Bullfrog R7 with lifter, steps, delivery: $9,000 with additional either $500 instant rebate or 3.99% for 60 mos financing
Vita Monarch with lifter, steps, delivery: $7,700 http://vitaspa.com/hot-tubs/
I haven’t wet tested yet, but before I do, does anyone here have experience with Vita spas???? The dealer was confident in their quality in comparison to BF. But from what I’ve seen for prices on here, isn’t $8,500 for a BF R7 a great price???? I wonder if I should even consider the Vita.
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Hi Everyone! I’d like to report back with some info and hopefully get some feedback from you guys. I absolutely LOVED the dealer I visited today. Such trustworthy folks and really knew their stuff. They offer both Bullfrog and Vita brands. They quoted me the following:
Bullfrog R7 with lifter, steps, delivery: $9,000 with additional either $500 instant rebate or 3.99% for 60 mos financing
Vita Monarch with lifter, steps, delivery: $7,700 http://vitaspa.com/hot-tubs/
I haven’t wet tested yet, but before I do, does anyone here have experience with Vita spas???? The dealer was confident in their quality in comparison to BF. But from what I’ve seen for prices on here, isn’t $8,500 for a BF R7 a great price???? I wonder if I should even consider the Vita.
My experience with Vita isn't extensive but it isn't extensive with BF either. I consider Vita as good as BF and several others.
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There's another good dealer in town that offers D1, specifically the @home series in my budget of $6-8k. How do you all feel D1 stacks up agains BF and Vita? The BF/Vita sales guy really pushes the fact that other brands have wood frames and sees that as a huge benefit/selling point. Any merit to that? I see that D1 is well respected on this forum.
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I never got the wood frame argument? If the shell is properly constructed, the weight of the spa is all centered in the footwell, with nominal weight around the perimeter, and the frame is merely there to keep the tub from racking, and for a mount for the cabinet. Again- *IF* the tub is properly constructed as an aggregate.
Wood could rot? What do you think happens to steel when mixed with moisture? Going resin? That can warp. I work at a spa factory and I haven't seen a frame warranty ever, regardless of the material. Point is- I think its *all* about shell construction. If you're relying on the frame as a huge sales point, its b/c you over-engineered your frame and under-engineered your shell.
Ask questions about how the shell is constructed: How many layers do they use? Is there a vinyl esther layer? What is the fiberglass content in the general resin coat (it should be at least 30% if the shell is being paid attention to in a manner that is quality). Is every layer sprayed/applied thoroughly over the entire backside of the shell or just in the footwell? Is there cleaners sprayed on before the glassing to increase the chemical bond? Is the tub sanded before the molding and after each glassing application to increase the mechanical bond? So on, so forth...
Those are the better, but less sexy, questions to ask.
[EDIT: GRAMMAR]
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Thanks wizard. Well from a shell construction standpoint, how's the D1 @home series stack up in comparison to those other two?
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Thanks wizard. Well from a shell construction standpoint, how's the D1 @home series stack up in comparison to those other two?
The D1 Nautalis is my personal favorite tub. The @home series is the value line from D1. I don't have a lot of experience with it either but D1 makes a quality tub.
Don't think D1 is represented on this board.
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I never got the wood frame argument? If the shell is properly constructed, the weight of the spa is all centered in the footwell, with nominal weight around the perimeter, and the frame is merely there to keep the tub from racking, and for a mount for the cabinet. Again- *IF* the tub is properly constructed as an aggregate.
Wood could rot? What do you think happens to steel when mixed with moisture? Going resin? That can warp. I work at a spa factory and I haven't seen a frame warranty ever, regardless of the material. Point is- I think its *all* about shell construction. If you're relying on the frame as a huge sales point, its b/c you over-engineered your frame and under-engineered your shell.
Ask questions about how the shell is constructed: How many layers do they use? Is there a vinyl esther layer? What is the fiberglass content in the general resin coat (it should be at least 30% if the shell is being paid attention to in a manner that is quality). Is every layer sprayed/applied thoroughly over the entire backside of the shell or just in the footwell? Is there cleaners sprayed on before the glassing to increase the chemical bond? Is the tub sanded before the molding and after each glassing application to increase the mechanical bond? So on, so forth...
Those are the better, but less sexy, questions to ask.
[EDIT: GRAMMAR]
So you've never gone to move a wooden hot tub and had it completely fall apart in the process? Because I have...hundreds of times. I'm not saying that if it's a wood frame it's garbage because properly done, it's not a big deal. But I just took 4 wood spas to the dump yesterday and they were falling apart.
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I'm not saying that if it's a wood frame it's garbage because properly done, it's not a big deal.
Yes. Goes back to the brand.
A poor Steel frame, or ABS frame suffers just the same.
What's everyone's home made of?
That being said, I am not against ABS or Steel. The Endless Pools all have Steel Frames, the NXT grandee I own is ABS. But people make it a bigger deal than it really needs to be.
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To be clear- I am an advocate of shell quality- as noted in my statement above. The frame should not be what is holding the tub up, but rather there as a stabilizer (hence- to guard against racking). The weight is overwhelmingly distributed from the footwell. If the tub has a quality shell, the frame is there more so as a cabinet mount.
When the frame rots/rusts/warps, etc, that tub is generally 15, 20+ years old. Just because a Chevy dies after 15 years doesn't mean their product is lousy or that they don't build their cars in a good manner. And if you buy a tub that somehow has a frame issue, it probably has a slew of other issues and it is extremely likely the tub is a very low-end brand, and that is just what happens when you buy cheap.
The frame- regardless of what it is made of- is not the focus. Thus- I don't get the wooden frame argument. I understand *why* it is a talking point- It is a sales pitch platform. But if you over-engineer the shell you don't have to over-engineer the frame.
After touring many manufacturing facilities and currently working for one, I really see how the sales side is born from covering the flaws of the construction process. I always discuss with any potential client, when they note the frame, that 1. My brand uses 1"x4" frames and has never had a frame warranty issue and 2. I don't know of any manufacturer that has had a frame warranty issue, if the manufacturer is an upper-tier brand. It goes back to shell construction. You're far more likely to develop a shell issue that is born out of poor shell quality and construction of the shell, in terms of blistering or cracking, than to run into an issue from the frame.
But I am always interested in other perspectives and I hope this didn't sound snotty or snarky. Was just trying to further clarify.
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But I am always interested in other perspectives and I hope this didn't sound snotty or snarky. Was just trying to further clarify.
Not at all! You always provide thoughtful, insightful responses. I just really enjoy debating this stuff and I agree with everything you posted here. We tend to get caught in the weeds with construction methods and materials in this industry and I actually find myself telling customers to avoid that. If you stick with a reputable brand, it doesn't really matter how the frame and shell are built. They are the least likely things to fail on a good hot tub. I was just pointing out that I see hundreds of wood spas falling apart every year. You're right that they probably are mostly 15+ years old. I don't pay specific attention, I just see them coming back with our delivery crews then going to the dump.