Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: rodger on July 30, 2004, 10:48:36 am
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Just what everyone wanted to hear, another discussion of the characteristics of full foam vs. thermopane.
I'm just a little concerned, no, much concerned about the susceptibility of a spa's pumps and plumbing freezing up during power outages. As some of you know, I've been shopping/thinking/researching spas and like the thermopane concept. After looking at the Marquis, which many of you have high regard for, the pumps and plumbing look like they would be likely to freeze-up during extended power outages. We have frequent power outages, with the worst one lasting 10 days during Blizzard Hannah in 1997. We weren't flooded, but did have to ride out the 3 day blizzard, 6 days without runnng water and 10 days without power.
http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9704/07/flood.update/index.html
and
http://www.rwic.und.edu/blizzard97/
I realize that even the best thermopane design won't stay liquid for 10 days, but I would have at least a couple of days to make a plan. I sent an email last night to Marquis tech support and here's the email exchange:
Rodger asks:
Dear Marquis support,
I live in N. MN and power outages are common. If the power goes out when our outside temperatures are -20 or -30 F, how long could I expect the pumps and plumbing adjacent to the pumps to remain unfrozen?
Marquis support responds:
That is a hard question to answer, but on average you should be fine for several hours.
Best regards,
name withheld (my change)
Customer Service
http://www.netcrafting.com/deck_spa/index.htm
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Maybe I miss someting about the thermopane design. As far as I know on these designs there are vents in the side of the tub to allow for the heat of the pumps to escape without overheating and damaging the heater and pumps (say, for someone in FLorida who buys a thermopane tub).
If there are vents in the tub, how many minutes do you think the hot air will sit in the "air chamber"? Next blizzard crack your windows 1cm and see how long the house stays warm.
Apologies if thermopane tubs (or the ones in question) have no ventilation in them to allow for pump/heater heat to escape during normal operation.
The service tech response from Marquis just means you are dealing with an honest manufacturer. Don't discount that in your shopping...
-Ed
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Maybe TP is more appropriate for hotter climates for motor cooling and FF is more appropriate in colder climates for insulation/freeze protection. But I think that this should not be a big factor when one is looking for their tub. So many other factors are much more important.
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Vented and screened side panels are optional for those experiencing high cabinet temps. If the tub is indoors, protected from rodents, you can just remove a panel or two to keep the area cooler.
It is my opinion that:
Fully foamed tubs are better for warmer climates. Reason: Less risk of freezing, electrical waste heat doesn't contribute to higher cavity and water temps.
Thermopane design is better for colder climates. Reason: Greater risk of freezing; water keeps the pumps and adjacent lines warm. I won't argure the efficiencies of having the electrical equipment contribute waste heat to the water. Evidence is not well documented yet (yes, I've seen the independent study that Arctic had done)
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I did appreciate the honesty of Marquis when they said freeze-up is a risk. I will not exclude them from consideration on this issue alone. I will be visiting the Marquis dealer in Brainerd tomorrow. I need a reason for a motorcyle ride anyway. I'll swing through Fargo and look at the Beachcomber as well.
Thanks for the comments!
Rodger
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Wow! I think I picked the wrong day to peek back in (can't resist being drawn into this old debate)! Don't have much time so I thought I would just paste an old post here.
Just thought I would share something. I had my basement refinishing contractor and the inspector both out looking at my project recently and asked them if it would be OK if we just put some sheet foam and panel up leaving the walls with a dead air space and made the panels removable so we could repair plumbing if needed. When the contractor stopped laughing, he said that was the craziest idea he has ever heard and that he wanted no part of it. The inspector told me if I was serious he would not sign off on my permit! I told them I was just kidding and wanted to relate my industry to theirs.
The inspector has a Coleman spa and asked me after thinking about it if there was a way he could foam his spa after the fact.
I know the arguments for both sides here and am not trying to take sides but I thought it was interesting how the conversation turned out from a different perspective outside of the industry. I might have created a monster though because now the inspector is acting like he needs to keep an eye on me or I will try to do something stupid!
True story! How would you look at it from other industries.
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Like you, I live in the mid-west. I have a Marquis Euphoria and 2 1/2 yrs. ago, we had a freeze and lost power for 7 days. I put a sleeping bag in the equipment area of the spa and with temperatures going as low as 8 degrees during the night. When the power came back, we had only lost 30 degrees, (101 dowm to 71). No problem with the equipment.
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If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.
Steve
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If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.
battery operated of course ;)
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Aren't all "service related items" battery operated? ;D
Steve
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absolutely steve! my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries. :o
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Hmmmmmm.
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absolutely steve! my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries. :o
Hope she is water proof!
(http://www.androidworld.com/David_Ng.gif)
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absolutely steve! my wife is very much a service related issue and she goes thru a ton of batteries. :o
Sorry you're not able to prevent that necessity! ;D
Steve
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If you live in a climate where freezing temperatures are common, the purchase of a space heater is a wise one regardless of the insulation design of your spa.
Steve
Would this be a good option for our Beachcomber? In fact, would there be "space" for a space heater?
Steve K
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This applies to any spa regardless how good the salesperson said it was. It doesn't have to be big.
Some spas will be prone to freeze quicker than others. Yours is one of the spas that will give you more time than others given extended power outages in freezing temps. A car with great gas mileage can still run out of gas. ;)
Steve
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I can't help but be amused and a little concerned when reasonable, intelligent people start to discuss and debate what is the best design (thermopane vs. full foam) to prevent freezing if the power goes out for several days. In my opinion, WHO CARES!!! If your power goes out for several days, do the sensible thing and DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE TUB! You will save yourself the agony of the endless and hopeless perpetual debate of Full Foam vs. Thermopane. I have been in the Hot Tub business for 4 years in Calgary, Alberta and I would suggest that if your power is out for several days in weather conditions cold enough to freeze water that was 101 Degrees, you have bigger problems to worry about than your hot tub.
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In my opinion, ..... DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE TUB!
Thanks Jordy, I was just about to type those very words.
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Thank God Chas, I thought I was alone. By the way, I hate the constant debate about insulation. Both types have pro's and con's and I would summarize as follows:
Thermopane Pro- easy to get at and repair plumbing failures.
Thermopane Con- you'll need to get in there, because you'll have more plumbing failures, due to lack of stabilizing (more pipe movement causes more leaks).
Full Foam Pro- fewer leaks.
Full Foam Con- tougher to get at for an inexperienced tech.
Best combination-full foam and an experienced tech.
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I can't help but be amused and a little concerned when reasonable, intelligent people start to discuss and debate what is the best design (thermopane vs. full foam) to prevent freezing if the power goes out for several days. In my opinion, WHO CARES!!! If your power goes out for several days, do the sensible thing and DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE TUB! You will save yourself the agony of the endless and hopeless perpetual debate of Full Foam vs. Thermopane. I have been in the Hot Tub business for 4 years in Calgary, Alberta and I would suggest that if your power is out for several days in weather conditions cold enough to freeze water that was 101 Degrees, you have bigger problems to worry about than your hot tub.
Power can go out for several days and the tub still be protected from freezing up solid. If the decision to drain is made, you better be prepared to blow those lines out with a shop vac after you drain it. Just draining it will only make your problem more severe.
Steve
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Couldn't agree w/you more Steve. In any case, if your power is out under severe weather conditions for several days, YOU'VE STILL GOT BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN YOUR HOT TUB!!!!
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Power can go out for several days and the tub still be protected from freezing up solid. If the decision to drain is made, you better be prepared to blow those lines out with a shop vac after you drain it. Just draining it will only make your problem more severe.
Steve
Actually, the plumbing on most HS models would self-drain enough to get you by for what we're talking about here: they have drain lines that go to all critical areas and some models have a secondary drain fitting that you open to empty the equipment area after the tub itself is empty.
If you were going to 'winterize' the tub you would blow it out, and if you were really worried about it during a blackout, I suppose a few minutes with the yard blower would ease your mind.
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Jordy, you talk like you've actually seen the insides of a thermopane and have actually watched those water lines shake around when they're moving water.
Or have you?
I can tell you that my lines don't shake and move around when they moving water. I've looked. I've seen.
You're just another full foamer trying to justify his purchase.
Your arguments for the fallacies of thermopane are unfounded and untrue.
And don't forget about the mice problem all of us thermopane owners have!
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Yeah, everyone known thermopane owners don't have pumps powerful enough to shake the loosely-hanging plumbing.
*duck*
;)
-Ed
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In my opinion...DRAIN THE WATER OUT OF THE TUB!
OK... My question is this:
If you've got no power, it's freezing out and you drained all the water, is there a risk of any remaining water in the plumbing system damaging the equipment? Or, is there a way to ensure that when you do drain that 'all' the water is drained.
I'm still new to this and don't really understand what happens when you do drain. Is there water left in the pipe and the pumps? I know that when they delivered our Optima it was empty... As soon as the delivery guys put it on it's side to get it off the truck a whole bunch of water came out from somewhere. That's the water that I'd be worried about...
Thoughts?
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Perhaps a good precautionary measure would be to keep a few bottles of RV/Boat/Pool plumbing antifreeze around. You probably would want to wash it out realllllly good next time you get in, but it is a lot cheaper than a battery powerd vacuum. Correct me if this is a bad idea but I would suggest: Drain all the water out that you can, poor a couple of bottles of RV/Boat/Pool antifreeze in the filter intakes with the lines open. When you see some just begining to come out the drain, close it. Clean up any spillage (for cat's sake) and make sure you paid your homeowners insurance premium just in case.
(http://www.douglasproducts.com/commercial/5starpl.gif)
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That's right don't forget to duck!!!
(hurling thermopane panel with fresh roasted mouse Ed's way)
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Actually, RV antifreeze (propylene glycol) is non toxic. So no need to worry about kitty. It's the automotive stuff (ethylene glycol) that kills pets who lick at the puddles.
Brewman
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Thats why it hasn't been working.......J/k
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Very Interesting Conversation!!
I just purchased a full foam Bahia. I was guessing that if I had an electrical failure of some sort (power outage or spa electrical/pump problem), I'd need to swiftly drain the unit if it was winter. Your conversations make it sound like a full foam may be good to go for a day or two in freezing weather??? I live in Ohio and we can pretty cold (not as bad as Maine, but pretty cold).
If I have this problem, should I quickly check the water temp, say every 6 hrs or so, then drain if the temp gets in the 40's??? I sure hope to not have this issue, but I sure wouldn't want to loose my tub!!
Connie
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DON'T DRAIN YOUR TUB IN WINTER CONNIE!
These guys are talking extreme conditions like an ice storm where power is out indefinately. In a regular scenario, power outages are hours not days. Not to worry my dear.
These guys and their "sky is falling" routine.... sheesh. Look what you did to this poor lady... :-/ ;D
Steve
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Power can go out for several days and the tub still be protected from freezing up solid. If the decision to drain is made, you better be prepared to blow those lines out with a shop vac after you drain it. Just draining it will only make your problem more severe.
Steve
Question. You have no power to your house. you drain the tub and blow the pipes out. Huh! you plug the shop vac ????????
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You plug your shop vac.......
Into the little gas powered generator you still have in the crate because the year 2K doom didn't come to pass, and the stores who sold these generators wisely had a no return policy in affect in the last few months of 1999. ;)
Brewman
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Sorry all. I do have a genny given our experience these past few years. The ice storm and the blackout last summer along a few other notable blackouts that never made it to the national news.
The disturbed side of me thought that was too funny. I remeber freaking out a scout troop once while we were camping. I was the leader and brought out my plug-in coffee pot one morning which also went with baterries. Well I just pushed the plug into a thick bush while the young lads were looking on in bewilderment (probably thinking to themeselves - this guy's nuts) but lo and behold the thing started brewing my coffee. They naturally assumed that it was battery powered but I let them examine it closely and they could not find a flap for the batteries to be inserted. You had to screw the thing appart for that. I still LMAO every time I remember that week. I had fresh hot coffee every morning that week. ;D
And to this day I take great pride in knowing that for a time some of those lads went around telling people that this particular type of bush not only conducts electricity but produces it naturally.....LOL