Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: OhWhyNot on August 17, 2004, 10:40:27 am
-
Hello everyone.
I'm really happy to have stumbled across this site! Husband and I are shopping for a hot tub- had two wonderful experiences with our local (and only) HS dealer. First trip was informational, second was wet test with two eager family members to determine which HS tub we preferred.
After reading the many postings here, I was prepared for a surprise during the wet test, and we got it! Turns out we didn't actually love the Envoy with all of us slopping around in it, despite it's fabulous copper color! We found ourselves preferring the bigger and lounge-less Grandee, much to our surprise.
The dealer has offered us the pearl/redwood Grandee with cover, lift, steps, 220 subpanel, water care kit and u.v. ozone unit, delivered, for $8195. A bit more than we had planned to spend, but we really like the tub. Is that a decent price? Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live) We've really enjoyed the folks we've met at the dealership- they were very enthusiastic about our wet test and staying after closing and providing robes, towels, etc. After reading everyone's posts about how important the dealer is (and this one sells nothing but tubs), I am confident that they would take very good care of us!
Now, as delighted as I am about the Energy Efficient rating of the Grandee, I worry about that jet power thing...... is that a non-issue, or has anyone out there been disapointed with the smaller motor/pump system? Is there anything we are overlooking about the Grandee, and should we (try to) insist on the other type of ozone unit I've seen mentioned here?
Thanks again for providing some great information to those of us who are very new at this game!
- E :D
-
HS does not build a strong shell, no fiberglass. They are prone to cracking. I like most everything else about them though.
Gary
-
HS does not build a strong shell, no fiberglass. They are prone to cracking. I like most everything else about them though.
Gary
Wow. What total bull.
-Ed
-
Prone to cracking?
I'm not 100% certain I'd agree with that characterization...
There have been some materials issues in the past, circa 1994/1995 that occured because the vacumme thermoform stretched the endurol material too thin in some places- particularly in the Jetsetter near the light lens.
However, because of these issues, Watkins took some measures to prevent the material from being stretched to its limits. 1] You'll note that shell designs evolved to incorporate curves with much softer radii, 2] Watkins began using an additional layer of 30# structural foam- which ridgidizes the shell, and 3] Watkins also added supports in areas like the cool down bench, to prevent repetitive material flexing.
In terms of shell strength, Dimension One, Bullfrog, and others do similar things with their one-piece composite- I know Dimension One warrantees their Ultra Life shell for the duration of ownership...and HotSpring warantees the shell and structure for seven years... Were they really prone to cracking, HotSpring and Dimension One would hardly be able to afford warranty repair costs of their product.
HotSpring shells are no more prone to cracking than any other spa shell in my opinion.
-
I have a 2003 Grandee and we have had very positive experiences with it. Hot Springs (actually, watkins) has a terrific service and track record. They had some struggles in the 80s and early 90s and changed some process around back then, but their response to customer satisfaction has become one of the things that makes them stand out as an honorable business.
The jets will be no stronger (and no weaker) once the tub is installed in your house. If it works for you when you wet test (and feel free to go back and wet test a few more times -- we wet tested 3 times before we bought). The grandees jets have plenty of power for us, even when we are running all of them at once.
A big deciding factor for me was the moto massage. That really grew on me and my wife. You can turn the temperature down to about 97 or 98 and sit in front of a moto-massage jet for hours, enjoy some beers, enjoy some company, enjoy the stars, just enjoy.
Additionally, I tend to really like the center seat opposite the outside control panel. Sit in that, put a foot on each foot jet, and just melt.
I paid about $8200 (with tax and basic options) but that was for a 2003 "get rid of it to make room for 2004s". Sounds like your quoted price is right in the ballpark, and perhaps on the lower end to boot.
-Ed
-
After reading the many postings here, I was prepared for a surprise during the wet test, and we got it! Turns out we didn't actually love the Envoy with all of us slopping around in it, despite it's fabulous copper color! We found ourselves preferring the bigger and lounge-less Grandee, much to our surprise.
Spas with open bench seating may not look as inviting as those with the sculpted seating but many find the openness a plus. This is why wet testing is key as your experience may not be the same as the last guy or the next one.
Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live) We've really enjoyed the folks we've met at the dealership- they were very enthusiastic about our wet test and staying after closing and providing robes, towels, etc. After reading everyone's posts about how important the dealer is (and this one sells nothing but tubs), I am confident that they would take very good care of us!
It’s always a good idea to test more than one brand to have a basis for comparison. As you noted it’s also very important to find a dealer who seems straightforward, on the ball and willing/able to service your needs. If you have reservations check out another dealer. If you're satisfied with the spa then you know you've got a dealer you trust.
Now, as delighted as I am about the Energy Efficient rating of the Grandee, I worry about that jet power thing...... is that a non-issue, or has anyone out there been disapointed with the smaller motor/pump system?
- E :D
Are you saying the wet test left you the impression the spa needed more power or are you saying you know other spas have more horsepower and feel maybe you're being shortchanged. Don't get caught up in pump specifications as a well designed spa makes proper use of the power the pump gives and a poorly designed spa requires more horsepower to get the job done and costs more to run. This comes down to how the jets felt.
-
I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?
I'm also interested in a Hot Springs, considering the Envoy, but have also been warned about the shell issues, problems with the moto-massage, among other things.
I don't know what to make of it all, but perhaps the helpful folks on this site will help us sort this out. Hopefully this doesn't stir things up too much but,
I was told:
HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack. The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.
BTW, I have not heard any of this from a HS owner yet.
Also: I 've been told about problems with their Everwood cabinets fading. The HS dealer said that they sell a product (Everwood Stain Kit) to maintain the cabinet. I'm not sure if other cabinets need this maintainance as well. Also was told that the panels have peeled in the sun.
Been told that HS has as many or more problems with their spas than anyone out there and that the maintenance cost will be higher over time due to the high cost of replacement parts.
I've also been told repeatedly by many many folks, including HS owners, that HS takes really good care of their customers, so not to worry and get the spa you like best. Now if only I could remember enough about my wet tests to decide!!
I think the Grandee is a great spa, and sometimes I think we can overanalyze these choices. This forum provides us with much great info, but remember, you've got a great dealership to work with, which IMO means alot as well.
I'm still deciding between the Envoy and the Marquis and wish I could wet test the two one more time. Doesn't seem possible though.
If your not sure, wet test again! Seems like your dealer will be very accomodating.
Keep me posted as to your decision.
IonHeaven
-
thanks for the quick feedback!
Spatech, I didn't think the tub felt underpowered- more like we were not at all familiar with the controls and didn't know how to maximize the tub's power. It seems that there were two jet buttons, so one or both sides could be powered, and the power certainly felt fine with both sets 'on'. I think that at one point the girls noticed that when one seat's power was increased (by the controls along the tub's edge) there was a decrease in another area, and I wondered if that is a common occurance with most tubs? Is that something that wouldn't happen with larger pumps?
Ed, one funny thing did happen- I had forgotten that the Grandee has two moto-massages, so I was puzzled that the two seats didn't feel the same at all. You know what I mean? While we were in the tub, I thought they were two different types of seats. Only later did I realize they were both moto-massage seats. I'm guessing this was more about folks playing with the jet/nozzle adjustments rather than a power issue? My husband liked the moto seat the best, so I guess it's better to have two and not fight over them!
I have a Sundance dealer and a Jacuzzi dealer in the area, so I plan to check them out as you have suggested. HS folks are coming tomorrow for site review, but I'm guessing their conclusions will be the same as anyone else's if we end up going with a different brand....
Thanks again for being so generous and helpful to yet another newbie!
-E
:D
-
thanks for the quick feedback!
Spatech, I didn't think the tub felt underpowered- more like we were not at all familiar with the controls and didn't know how to maximize the tub's power. It seems that there were two jet buttons, so one or both sides could be powered, and the power certainly felt fine with both sets 'on'. I think that at one point the girls noticed that when one seat's power was increased (by the controls along the tub's edge) there was a decrease in another area, and I wondered if that is a common occurance with most tubs? Is that something that wouldn't happen with larger pumps?
Thanks again for being so generous and helpful to yet another newbie!
-E
:D
What you refer to are more than liely diverter valves where power is taken from one seat to another.
I have the same thing on my Sundace Optima and we have the ability to turn power completly off on seats thereby increasing the power to others. In one of the seat if you put all power to it it will leterally blow my wife out of it. That being said, pump size have something to do with it but design of the system has a lot more to do with it.
HS is a highly reputable tub, and I completely dissagree with Gary here. I know that they had their issues in the late 80's/90's but all that was resolved and others here who own an HS tub will no doubt chime in tell you that that is a crock.
Enjoy your Sundacne and other wet tests, that is a fun part o shopping for a tub.
BTW we chose the Optima over the Cameo because we too prefered to openess of the tub and did not like the lounger.
-
I have owned my HS Landmark for a little over a year and a half and it just keeps getting better everyday. It is a well built spa with plenty of power. The Landmark is the same size as the Grandee with a little different seating arrangement. You will love the size of the Grandee whether it is just youa nd your husband or if you are entertaining.
I think the price you are being quoted is a great price for this tub.
Ion, you haven't bought that Envoy yet? Are you trying to be the new 'D&C'? You say you heard a lot of bad things about HS. How much of this did you hear from competing dealers or people who are sorry they didn't buy a HS so they figure it is best to bash it to make themselves feel better?
Bottom line - You will NOT be disappointed if you purchase a HS tub.
-
There have been some materials issues in the past, circa 1994/1995 that occurred because the vacumme thermoform stretched the endurol material too thin in some places- particularly in the Jetsetter near the light lens.
It was a whole lot more than Jetsetters and yes; there was a problem with the light lens. I fixed several of the sovereigns and Grande’s clear up until 1998 so I can't say it was just in those few years. Hotspring did change the entire light configuration so that helped immensely.
However, because of these issues, Watkins took some measures to prevent the material from being stretched to its limits. 1] You'll note that shell designs evolved to incorporate curves with much softer radii, 2] Watkins began using an additional layer of 30# structural foam- which ridgidizes the shell, and 3] Watkins also added supports in areas like the cool down bench, to prevent repetitive material flexing.
The bench area was the most prevalent to cracking because of that’s where you step in. I also understand that Watkins strengthened this area.
Hot Springs (actually, Watkins) has a terrific service and track record
I agree! I think that Watkins has an excellent track record for taking care of their customers.
Were they really prone to cracking, HotSpring and Dimension One would hardly be able to afford warranty repair costs of their product.
I don't know if I agree here, both are pretty expensive spas and a large part of that is figured into the fact that both companies pre-plan customer service costs.
HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack. The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.
I believe they can fiberglass but the cost to do so now where they are at does not make sense. My personal opinion is that fiberglass is better and much stronger than foam although HS seems to have made it work well for years. I just have to think you would not consider a $50,000 corvette made out of foam (even if it were high density).
All in all HotSpring is a very proven brand and they take care of their customers, my biggest worry with them now is that they made an incredible amount of product changes in the last few years that they stood firm against for a long time. There is no telling what the long term effect of those changes will be until they’ve been out for awhile. I personally believe that you can support 3-4 major changes a year in a product without much recourse, it will be interesting to see how 30-40 changes over the last few years will effect the life of the product.
-
One thing about the hotspring EE spas is you will probably have fewer service calls than most other spas. They are well engineered and solid.
-
My Vanguard is almost a year old (just a few weeks) and it is still great! No cracking issues, and I am certainly not worried about it.
I have to agree, having 2 moto-massage seats is a great idea, my husband and I don't fight over who gets that seat! Of course, mine has the hydro-pulse plate while his still has the regular plate, and once I am done with my seat, he always jumps right over into it!!!
Performance wise, if you enjoyed the wet test, but feel you need a little more experience in the tub, set up another wet test. Ask the dealer to explain the diverters to you, while sitting in the tub. I wet tested twice, my last two choices were the HS Vanguard and LA Spa Fiji. I went to my HS dealer and tested the Vanguard, then went to the LA dealer and tested the Fiji, back to back! That sure helped with my final decision. I find there is plenty of power in my tub. I felt "beat up" after testing some models!
Good luck! HotSpring is one of the best (not that there aren't other great manufacturers out there) and you can not go wrong with one!!! The dealer sounds very helpful and knowledgeable!
Just a few of my thoughts!!!
-
Is that a decent price? Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live)
Can't comment on the price. I'm sure you will be happy with a Hot Springs tub, but how of curiousity, where do you call home? Sometimes there are dealerships nearby you may not have realized.
-
YOU MIGHT WANT TO WET TEST THE SUNDANCE OPTIMA PROVIDING THERE IS A SUNDANCE DEALER NEAR YOU.
DURING MY WET TESTS I PREFERRED THE OPTIMA OVER THE GRANDEE.
I TOO STARTED LOOKING AT THE VISTA FIRST BUT DID NOT CARE FOR THE LOUNGER AND FINALLY ENDED UP ORDERING THE OPTIMA.
GOOD LUCK!
-
I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?
I'm also interested in a Hot Springs, considering the Envoy, but have also been warned about the shell issues, problems with the moto-massage, among other things.
There have no 'shell issues' for many years. HotSpring wouldn't enjoy the leadership position they do if they had on-going issues with shell or structure reliability. There may be some repairmen or competitive dealers out there who would like to see HotSpring take a hit in this regard, but there really is no issue. I don't know what to make of it all, but perhaps the helpful folks on this site will help us sort this out. Hopefully this doesn't stir things up too much but,
I was told:
HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located
That info is in error. It's actually almost funny, since they do in fact fiberglass-reinforce many parts, such as the siding on the Solana line, and all the shells in the Caldera and Hot Spot lines. The motor compartment boxes were fiberglass for years. These parts may very well represent more than the entire output of most other makers. so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack.
They use high density foam only as the first layer in a a system of multi-layer foam that forms an engineered system that is very strong. It also supports the shell and plumbing in a very even manner that tends to avoid problems like cracks. The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.
The fact is, if a HotSpring shell cracks, it will most likely leak. That much is true. The rest of the story is that a HotSpring shell is no more nor less likely to crack than any other type of construction. It is designed to do exactly what it does: hold water. It does. And does well.
Keep in mind that HotSpring sells more spas than any other maker - you may very well hear from a repairman who has fixed some cracked HotSpring tubs. Fine. That is more a statement about how many HotSpring tubs are in his area than a statement about some sort of 'cracking issue,'
BTW, I have not heard any of this from a HS owner yet.
No, you heard this from somebody who sells Marquis - and even if they used to sell HS, I find it doesn't make sense to take info from a competitor.Also: I 've been told about problems with their Everwood cabinets fading. The HS dealer said that they sell a product (Everwood Stain Kit) to maintain the cabinet. I'm not sure if other cabinets need this maintainance as well. Also was told that the panels have peeled in the sun.
Wow - this is out of date info. Yes, there exists a stain kit for the plastic siding, but I have yet to sell one. It is handy for people who have extreme exposure or staining from sprinklers or other unusual situations. The first-generation siding did fade, and it was glued into a solid envelope so that repairs were tough. But that was many years ago and we are on the third generation of siding.
This is a great siding that can be trouble-free for many many years. The fact that we offer a stain kit, and that some people choose to touch up the stuff hardly means that it's suddenly in the same leaque as wood, or other lesser plastics. There are a lot of very durable non-wood sidings out there, wouldn't you rather have one supported by the biggest tub maker in the world, with the added support of touch-up stain and so forth? Been told that HS has as many or more problems with their spas than anyone out there
No, HotSpring has a lower failure rate than most other brands. It is in the low single-digit percentages, and even though this may represent a large NUMBER of spas, it represents a tiny fraction of the whole. and that the maintenance cost will be higher over time due to the high cost of replacement parts.
Replacement parts that most people buy are: filters and covers. These are available in all the same places as filters and covers for other spas, at the same prices. The one difference is that there are many makers whose single filter can cost almost as much as our four or five.
The Moto Massage is about $70 - and is covered by a five-year warranty on a new tub, and a one-year parts warranty when you buy a replacement.
I've also been told repeatedly by many many folks, including HS owners, that HS takes really good care of their customers, so not to worry and get the spa you like best.[/quote True. As a dealer since 1985 I can attest to the fact that they cover me well, and they cover you well.I think the Grandee is a great spa, and sometimes I think we can overanalyze these choices. This forum provides us with much great info, but remember, you've got a great dealership to work with, which IMO means alot as well.
-
I think your price of $8200.00 for the Grandee sounds great! I can't even remember the base price we got from our HS dealer for the Grandee but I know we wanted pearl (more expensive!), ozonator-$300, cover, and cover lifter-$300, and the total for all that including 6% sales tax was $9600-$9700 (Can't remember exactly but they said that was the best they could do and we decided we could do better elsewhere!).
I too became a little concerned about the Grandee hp but later realized that was not a legitimate concern. We actually tested the Envoy and loved the moto-massage but did not like the fit of the lounger. I know we would have bought the Grandee if the price had been more reasonable. We 'settled' for a Jacuzzi Premium J-375 and couldn't be happier!
If your dealer is good and the price is good, I don't think you can go wrong with the Grandee!
-
Perk1
Quote: "Are you trying to be the new 'D&C'?"
No, actually its not like that at all. Please just bear with me a little while longer.
Chas
Thanks for your response. Maybe you can let us know about what HS philosophy is concerning all the changes made in the past few years that Stuart mentioned? What kind of changes? I know the Envoy is a totally new design and I love it....I seem to remember the lounge was just the right size for me. Anyway, I'm just curious. Thanks again.
IonHeaven
-
"I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?"
- It was the way the seats were arranged as a result of the lounger and captain seat, mostly. The two seats next to the lounger seat seemed a little close for us, and the different directions faced by the lounger and captain's chair didn't seem as 'sociable' as we wanted it to feel. In the Grandee, we were more or less sitting in a circle, and we preferred that. Also, the Grandee is a bit deeper than the Envoy, and I liked that a lot. It was just easier for us to move about freely in the Grandee.
"...where do you call home? Sometimes there are dealerships nearby you may not have realized"
- Maine. There is another dealer in the next state, about an hour away, but I hesitate to work with a dealer so far away, especially when the one closer to home seems so terrific.
Shopping Update:
Went to the Sundance dealer this afternoon to check out the Optima. According to the note on his door he has closed the store while bringing his kids to college, due back in town on the 24th. So no luck there.
Went next to the Jacuzzi (according to their ad in the yellow pages) dealer, who didn't have a Jacuzzi in sight. We found Bullfrogs instead, about 4 of them surrounded by a world of woodstoves. We were greeted and invited to look around, take literature, and ask any questions. I asked about wet testing, and he said 'sure, just call ahead and set up a time', which was fine. I neglected to ask if it could be after hours, and it would have to be, as there is no way the four of us could comfortably test that tub in front of all the stoves and people shopping for stoves. There's a busy sales counter about 25 feet away, no towels or robes in sight. It didn't look inviting at all. But I have to admit I am intrigued by the design concepts behind the Bullfrog, and the lifetime warranty (jet pack plumbing and shell) is hard not to notice. Is there something to their idea about reducing the plumbing and number of holes in the shell? Do they have much of a track record?
At this point we are really leaning towards the Grandee, but we'll make a point to wet test the Optima before making the final decision. That is, of course, providing the college-bound dealer has one in his showroom!
Thanks for the tip about wet testing a second time! The HS place was fairly lively when we went the first time, and I felt that the staff was also doing us a courtesy by giving us our space as we went from tub to tub. I'm sure they wouldn't mind us showing up a second time to request that someone walk us through the diverters and jet controls in more detail. In the meantime, I'll see if I can locate a different Sundance dealer that isn't hours away.
Thanks again to everyone for offering some great feedback.
-E
:D
-
Chas, the first to use 9 quotes in a single message! Gold medal!
-
Chas
Thanks for your response. Maybe you can let us know about what HS philosophy is concerning all the changes made in the past few years that Stuart mentioned?
I can only guess here: they wanted to improve the product, and they had all the changes ready to go at approximately the same time. HotSpring has never made this many changes at once before, but many of these changes were in motion already. What kind of changes? I know the Envoy is a totally new design and I love it....I seem to remember the lounge was just the right size for me.
They offered 38 changes. Some of them were simple extensions of changes which were underway already: such as reshaping the bar top area with cupholders and no tile. Several models had made this change a year or two before.
Other changes were more involved, such as adding a 'mid sized' jet and larger pumps to the HP models. This is were having a company with a real engineering staff comes into play, and these jets have been used on Caldera spas for years. Calcs were made, the equipment plumbed in, and the tubs work. We needed to add more flow to the filters, and instead of adding yet more of our existing filters, or taking up more room in the spa by going to a larger filter, we had a vendor design new types of filters. They retrofit to the older spas, and they work quite well.
The color-changing lght array was a simple extension of the all-blue LED arrays that we already had in place. We added a couple of new colors of siding, and the big changes: a couple of waterfalls. They are much more than simple holes in the wall squirting water: they have a balanced system to keep the flow steady when the pump jumps from low-speed to high-speed. Yes, lots of changes.
But I think many of them were under way prior, and others had been simply waiting for the appropriate time. Anyway, I'm just curious. Thanks again.
IonHeaven
-
I looked at the optima, marquis euphoria, and HS grandee. All are excellent tubs.
we own the grandee.
pictures of our installation.
http://members.cox.net/jim69bird/Complete
we have no problem about the power, I like the moto massage, and the bench seats, which are more accomodating for conversation. One thing that set the tub apoart was the slightly retangular configuration and the fact that the non-corner seats are just as fun as the ones in the corners.
we paid about the same, set up and installation was very professional, hot springs is a bit unusual in wiring (separate wiring for pumps and heaters), but provides the panel ($100).
we got the upgraded lift and I would strongly recommend that.
we also changed 2 of the fixed jets to the spinner type, HS threw them into the dieal. glad we did that.
Beer holders are important too....
-
Sobe -
What did you like better about the Optima vs Grandee? Just curious.