Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jukeboxpunk on May 31, 2017, 02:47:41 pm
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Hello and good day.
Let me first start by saying, I don't want this hot tub.My wife wants one and I am appeasing her by purchasing one and doing all the install work for the dang thing.
With that said, I have run into a crossroad and need some suggestions on how to approach a hot tub install on sloped terrain.
Size of hot tub is 7 person and fully loaded with people weighs around 3 tons.
The picture I attached is where my wife and I would like to install this beast. I don't want a concrete pad.
My two options are a retaining wall, back filled with crushed stone and pebble -or- 6-9 poured footings for a deck of some sort. I would rather do the backfilled retainingwall because it looks good when complete, i am just not sure 3 tons would stay compacted for long.
Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated.
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18767928_10155408927453453_6807901483279826820_n.jpg?oh=9a536dc593d665a0ed875540a5a805c8&oe=59AD0AD5)
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Do you have a skid loader, or can you rent (use) one? Were you going to do this by hand or machine?
That slope, to me, doesn't look all too steep ....at least to my eye, in your picture. So, if I'm seeing it right, I think if it were me, what I think the easier route would be to go ahead with your idea of a small brick retaining wall on the lower end, and dig it down 12-14" on the high side (use that earth as fill on the lower side). By doing that, you have a lower amount of retaining wall and 1/2 or so of the H/T will be on firm ground on the upper side that won't settle. If you get a plate compactor from home depot or wherever, and pack it down a couple times as you build it up, you'll be fine. 3000 lbs over that amount of area isn't that much and if you have it half on old ground, you're talking 1500lbs over a spread out area -- not that much. Just make sure you bank your retaining wall per best practices or use interlocking blocks, etc. Put gravel underneath. You'll want to plan it to allow enough space for someone to remove the panels and service it on all sides.
What you might consider is there are square plastic 'pads' that you can buy to put under a hot tub. They come in 2'x4' sizes and interlock. Besides making it a lot easier to build a base, they also help distribute the weight out and help keep the earth from 'spreading' outward. And helps keep rodents from getting in from under the H/T. Also you don't really need to deal with any gravel clean-up when you're done with it, so you save a bunch of work there ...just sell the pads and refill in the area. But you should put sand under the pads.
Let me first start by saying, I don't want this hot tub.My wife wants one and I am appeasing her by purchasing one and doing all the install work for the dang thing.
That almost ensures that you'll end up LOVING it a lot more than HER!!! :) That's how it usually goes.
Good luck, show us the finished product too.
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Hey thank you for the reply Jack!
I will be doing this project for the most part by hand. Compacting would be done with a machine compactor. I bought 6x6 timbers for a timber retaining wall. I can bank the timbers as well and place rebar down through them.
The slope from stake on the high end to the stake on the low end is level if the low end comes up 16" or the high end is lowered that much. I am most likely not going to dig into the earth do to the roots of the trees surrounding the area. But I could back fill with crushed stone, and compact, then add pea gravel on top.
Does that sound right?
Hopefully I will love this tub once it is in.
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It matters where you live also. Do you have ground freeze in the winter?
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Tman yes we are in NH and have freezing periods.
Digging down may present a challenge do to ledge.
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For what it is worth my 2 cents is this. It sounds very nice and romantic to have a remote located tub in the woods. In the practical world you have to deal with snow and leaves. Sticks falling on the tub etc. You have a long underground run of a 220v line to the tub. Digging into a slope you will have leaves and mud building up on the high side against the tub. Depending on what tub you buy the bottoms are more susceptible to ground moisture entering the surround and causing problems.
The ideal location for a tub is a screened in deck / porch with a roof over it, but I get people want to be one with nature and the outdoors when in the tub.
I want my tub to have a view of nature, but I don’t want to have to walk and shovel my way to it in the winter. Then having to shovel a bunch of snow off the top to find the cover froze down. We love to use our tub on a snowy night or even in the rain. It is not any fun without some cover. We installed ours on a deck close to the house in the summer and loved watching the stars until the weather started to change. We then added the pergola with a roof.
Given your location I would suggest a deck for the tub with an elevated boardwalk from the house to the deck. You could run your power under the boardwalk and not have to bury the conduit. Build the deck large enough that when you want to add cover above you can attach that to the deck. Getting in and out you don’t want to be bringing in stuff from the ground stuck on your feet. Flip flops and such help some but never seem to do the job.
I hope you learn to love your tub as most of us here do. I’m afraid though if your heart isn’t in it now when all the maintenance starts. Because even if you don’t use it you must keep an eye on it pretty much daily and 4 times a year drain and clean and fill it. The easier the access and the planning on setting it up the better that goes. It is easy to run the garden hose over in the summer and throw it in to refill it. in February it becomes a task. About once a month the filter needs cleaned etc. I put outside water hot & cold right next to the tub and I can rinse the filter out in the cold weather outside.
For me there is much more to location than getting a solid base.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes.
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Thank you Bud!
The spot where I look to establish the base is literally 20ft from the house and the conduit run isnt too much of a deal for me.
You are right though about a stable foundation and cover. Maybe an overbuilt deck base is the way to go and later on if and when the wife asks for a roof of sorts I can add that.
My only concern with a deck is leveling it after it has sat for awhile. Some had suggested using heavy bolts as pins to the beams, that way you can level the deck then shim in between the bolts once at the proper level. But something about 3 tons on 6 or 9 bolts leaves me concerned.
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Here is another angle of the site. So to the right is where this project is starting.
Not too far from the house.
Wiring and conduit will go under ground to the corner of the house where the spa panel will be located. Then main line will go into the eaves back to the main panel about 75 ft away. Pretty much a straight run. I am not concerned at all with the power runs. just the structure this tub will reside on.
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18700053_10155399121683453_4646210656049940009_n.jpg?oh=29c360d1309d4e34d3663c9ac2970d00&oe=59E23DE8)
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So your high side is what needs to be cut down and a small wall built? That makes it easier and better, nothing but settled earth. Then leveled and filled with compacted #2 limestone. Then build a small base to set on top of the compacted limestone. Make the base out of treated 4x4's on 12" centers and 3/4 treated plywood. The largest span for the plywood will be about 9". No problem holding a tub. If it settles or heaves simply empty the tub and shim the wood base. The treated plywood base will last as long as the tub. You got the right tool there along with a shovel and a beer.
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My deck is 12 x 16 and 30” high the tub with water is around 6000 lbs and then another 1000 of people in the tub and another 1000 of people and stuff on the deck. I have 3 rows of 4 posts supporting the deck 4x4 posts sitting on the precast deck footings they sell at builder’s centers. All my posts are cross braced. 3 beams of doubled 2x8 and then 2x8 floor joists and 5/4 PT decking.
We live in northern pa and get 100 plus inches of snow per winter and temps down as low as -30. My deck has been holding fine for 3 years now. The one winter we had a frost more than 48” deep. If the deck is free standing it will move up and down just as your stone pad will. You are not worrying about a quarter inch tilt mid winter as it will come right back flat in the spring.
I ran the numbers on my posts and 4x4 are fine as long as they are short. The bigger 6x6 is needed for column strength on tall decks only 4x4 will carry the length.
We get a lot of wind and in the worst months I have some wind breaks I attach to the columns of the pergola. They extend up above the top of the tub about 24”. 2 sides of our tub are just a couple feet from walls of the house and that with the wind breaks makes for fun winter tubbing. Most people keep the water in the winter pretty hot 103-104 and even though it is cold out that temp water you need to get the top half of your body out of the water from time to time. The cool down seat is the one for doing that. If it is around freezing and some wind most people don’t like cooling down that fast. Blocking the wind helps a lot.
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If I do a deck I will keep it small, probably no bigger than the tub and room for the steps.
I bought the 6x6 PT timbers already. For the footings I will have to do 12" sonos.
Thinking about only doing 6 footings.
Just need to know my beam sizes and what to sister together. 2, 2x10s? 3, 2x10s?
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Bud makes a good point. If you could put it closer to the house it will be better for a lot of reasons. I was thinking of suggesting the same thing.
It's been surveyed here and other places, those who tend to use their hot tub the most typically use them more in the winter (believe it or not??), and those who have their hot tub close to the house door use it more than further away ....not just the house, but preferably a few easy steps from the door. I know a guy who uses his hot tub all the time and he built a special deck for it and it's literally 2 steps from his back door and he's in.
So, if you don't mind moving it closer, maybe it'll make your landscaping easier and more useful to access the tub when it gets cold.
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Bud makes a good point. If you could put it closer to the house it will be better for a lot of reasons. I was thinking of suggesting the same thing.
It's been surveyed here and other places, those who tend to use their hot tub the most typically use them more in the winter (believe it or not??), and those who have their hot tub close to the house door use it more than further away ....not just the house, but preferably a few easy steps from the door. I know a guy who uses his hot tub all the time and he built a special deck for it and it's literally 2 steps from his back door and he's in.
So, if you don't mind moving it closer, maybe it'll make your landscaping easier and more useful to access the tub when it gets cold.
I'm in complete agreement here. We have owned a tub 14 years now. Ohio Winters are cold, maybe not Arctic, but we have used our tub 12 months a year every year. Our surrounding is more urban, but out tub is 4 steps from the door, though I have to make 8 steps to get the cover open!
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I guess looking again at your placement with those other pictures, not too far from the house, I'd probably lay a thin base of 3/4" clear stone (no fines) then large bricks ...maybe 24x24 pavers on the stone base and cinder blocks on top to get your height. Then cover with whatever decorative covering you like. I don't think you need to pour anything. I'd want to give the possibility of water being able to 'flow' under if it got really wet out for a week.
Then run some sturdy steel (preferred) or wood stringers across the bottom or more bricks at the appropriate height to support the middle areas. The reason I would do something along this route is because it looks like that area between the corner of the house and the trees is trenched a little to produce a drainage channel for water to run away from the house and down the hill. You don't want to screw the drainage up and run into the possibility of future foundation damage or basement leaks. Keeping it somewhat 'open' underneath the hot tub, at least using bricks which water can run through and under will allow water to pass. If the H/T base becomes a little uneven after a couple years, just have someone come in with a bobcat and some long fork extensions and lift it out of there, then straighten or shim the base and set it back on. If you know a guy with a skid loader I'm sure he can do it.
Let us know how you come out
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Unfortunately I've gone the footing rout.
I have 2 and half footing holes dug thus far. I was able to get down 40-42". Now that I'm
Down that distance, I have about a foot of water accumulating in the holes on the low end. This is surprising to me because I am on a few hundred foot high hill. I was expecting to run into ledge and had nothing but smooth shoveling all the way down. Definitely clay like soil. I bought my tubes and trash bags, just have to get stone for the bottoms.
I have second guessed myself multiple times on this project just because of the weight of the tub.
As far as proximity to the house, it is close to the house maybe not 4 steps away but 6-7 steps, less than 20 ft.
I would have loved to go the backfill rout but again back to second guessing myself. But now that I'm down that path of footings I can either continue on or backfill holes and go the retaining wall rout.
Any recommendations on dealing with water table issues? We had lots of rain before I started digging. Actually a lot of rain for NH where I'm at. I'd like to be 48"down but the soil is so packed and dense my shovel is barely breaking it apart.
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I outlined what I did in post 9. We live just inland of Lake Erie and have some of the coldest winter temps in the state. Two years ago it was 30 below for a week. The frost was really deep and we had issues with our porch and garage doors lifting because the frost got below the footings. On the other hand the 12x16 deck had no problems as it was supported only 6 inches below the surface but was designed to be free floating and not attached to the house. I built the deck 1 inch from the house and 3 inch step down from the door leading out. Out-swing door. The frost lifted the deck maybe an inch and in the spring it came back down. In your case a much smaller platform would work equally as well I think.
Soil is in a state of natural compaction unless it has been dug up in the last 10 years. I was careful when I dug down to keep the virgin soil flat and I did use a hand tamper when setting my post seats. I have them buried to ground level and the first freeze locks them in place solid. Then if the frost goes deeper they stay in location just move up and down. With this type of a deck you don’t rely on the posts for stability, it is all in the structure like your picnic table sitting out over winter. I could easily lift my deck and move it in one piece if I had a crane or something. People build them like this at campgrounds all the time and they hold up well. My power is going thru seal-tite so it will flex with a little movement.
With your footings and posts I never liked pouring right into water. Maybe you can bail your holes right before you pour or seal the ends of your tubes.
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I have my 4 holes dug down to about 42" . I also widened the bottoms out to about 16 inches and plan to do the garbage bag method of pouring the footings to get a wider base. Also now considering adding 2 more footings in the center. Currently the footings are 7' oc apart.
The hot tub is a 7 person hot tub with a 7'7"x7'7" footprint. So it should overlap the footings once on top. The hot tub without people weighs about 5600 lbs. And to split that between only 4 footings seems a bit shy.
BTW water is dried up and gone, which I am happy about.
Ill post pics later
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To give you a feel for support my tub is 8x8 and 6000 pounds filled. Deck is 12x16 with 3 rows of 4 posts about a foot in from the sides. The tub sits in the corner more or less with access room on the one end for the cover lifter about 2 feet. But all the weight is over 2 of the 3 beams running the 16’ direction. 4 posts land under the tub is all and they are 4x4 about 20” long the 4 carry some weight thru the beam. I ran the column numbers and 4 posts that short were way more than enough.
I’m pretty sure your 4 piers you are pouring will be way more than you need. I would add rebar to them for the pour though.
What are you using for beams, joists and decking. Will you be using hangers or stacking the joists over the beams?
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Going back and forth on using a post from the footings. If using a post ill probably use 6x6 notched for the beams. Beams will run parallel to the slope.
For the beams i was either going to triple up 2x8s or sistered 2x10s 10ft length. I would have a 1.5' cantilever all around, and it leaves me room should I want to add posts for something. Tub will sit centered on deck so that each corner of tub is over footings. The span between footing is only 7ft. tub is 7.4'x7.4'
For the joists i was planning on keeping it consistent with the beam size and maybe sister up some of the center joists. Also plan on adding blocking in between joists.
For decking I was going to with 2x6s. secured with Camo screw system.
This deck wont be very high in the end. from ground level up to level is about 15-16" on sloped low end maybe less. I will either use a post or bring my concerete footing the height i need, then the opposite end will be either flush with footing or on a small post. Trying not to exceed 30" height.
For steps for getting onto the deck I am going to get reclaimed granite curb. They sell it here cheap, being in the "granite state" afterall.
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Triple 8’s or double 10’s will be plenty. So will 6x6 posts that short. 5/4 decking is more than enough but the 2x6 will work fine.
True PT posts made for below grade will outlast a couple hot tubs. I would hold the posts off the bottom of the holes about 6” and mix a bag or two of ready mix and dump in each hole. Back fill and compact as you go with a 4x4 post.
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Joists 12" or 16" oc? Probably 2x8's 12"oc and 2x10's 16 oc?
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For a deck that small you are only talking about a couple pieces of wood going from 16” to 12” OC. If it makes you feel better go with 12” but 16” would be fine. You mentioned blocking and for that short of a span using joist hangers and 2x decking all screwed down blocking wouldn’t be required. But again you will have scraps left over adding a few blocks won’t hurt anything.
If you ever get rid of the tub you can always donate the deck to NASA they can always use a good launch pad. Hehe.
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Launch pad for sure!
It sucks I am going these extra steps to make this thing secure.
I started down this path so I am going to finish it this way.
I listened to my engineer buds and they are like overkilling me here with this thing.
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Lots of farmers go out in the field with a water tub for livestock about the size of a hot tub and toss it off the back of a wagon fill it with water and it sits there for 20 years winter and summer. Frost bumps them around some but they stay put.
You are not doing anything much different except getting it off the dirt a few inches.
Your base as planned is going to rock! In the good way. We expect pics detailing the construction all the way up to filling it with water.
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Currently I am in a holding pattern.
Have the holes dug but not filled yet. We have been having a series of storms with rain. This upcoming weekend I am going to attempt to set, add rebar, level and pour footings. Sometime this week I am going to string up my level lines. I ran ran lines initially for the placement of the footings, however they got cut or moved from digging. So new lines and level. I have some room for deviation. Each footing is at different hieghts due to the slope. I can either run the m ground level or level them completely to the highest point. My plan is to ground level them and use posts to level beams.
I bought my PT wood for posts and beams along with 1/2" bolts. Going to notch the posts and bolt the beams to them. Each post will be set in a simpson tie. Deck frame and joists will set right on over the beams. We do have high winds in the area im at. We had a tornado go through my neighbors woods back in '08. Went for 60+ miles. So I will tie the joists and frame down to the beams some how.
Currently have the site covered with a tarp. Ill take some pics this weekend when I start back up again.
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The joists can be toe screwed to the beams and in addition maybe every other one can have a 2x4 PT block run the height of the beam + height of the joist. Kind of fit into the corner, screw thru the thin direction into the beam and then screw thru the joist into the block. That thing with 3 tons of water isn’t taking off. You may lose your cover in a high wind if you don’t keep it buckled down though.
The Simpson ties are the best way to attach the posts. Stick a J bolt in during the pour.
Good luck with the weather we got 5” of rain the other night in 3 hours. What a mess that made.
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Trying to scope out my wire online figuring it would be cheaper. Looking at 6 awg 4 wire with a shielded ground enough to handle a 80ft run from main panel to spa panel. HT is 240v 50 amp Bullfrog.
Someone said I could get away with 8awg but guess it isnt rated for 50 amps for that distance.
My run won't be going underground, but through my eaves. I do not have a basement or crawl space. Instead my plan is to go from HT to spa panel underground, connect, then up the siding and into the eaves, run all the way down the length of the house and down to my main panel.
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Trying to scope out my wire online figuring it would be cheaper. Looking at 6 awg 4 wire with a shielded ground enough to handle a 80ft run from main panel to spa panel. HT is 240v 50 amp Bullfrog.
Someone said I could get away with 8awg but guess it isnt rated for 50 amps for that distance.
My run won't be going underground, but through my eaves. I do not have a basement or crawl space. Instead my plan is to go from HT to spa panel underground, connect, then up the siding and into the eaves, run all the way down the length of the house and down to my main panel.
I ran 6-3 w/ground Romex from my panel to the outdoor GFCI sub panel. When you exit the house you are not supposed to run romex outside. If you go down your wall and into the back of your GFCI panel that will be to code. You can also put a Jbox at the point you are leaving the house and then run single conductor in conduit down the outside of the house. I thought that was crazy it is the same wire and insulation only in an outer sleeve so I just transitioned to PVC conduit where I left the house and used the same romex all the way to the GFCI breaker. From there to the tub I would suggest single conductor in conduit under ground. In my case I ran #8 from there to the tub as mine required 7 conductors as I have a split GFCI breaker panel. Heater and tub are on separate breakers. In your case run 4 #6 wires.
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By the way with #8 you will drop 6.3 volts or 2.6% at full load, with #6 drop is 3.9 volts or 1.6%
I was always told keeping it under 2% is a good thing.
Code says the GFCI subpanel has to be at least 5’ from the edge of the tub and has to be in eyesight of the tub.
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Yup I actually went with 6awg wire.
I was able to get my footings and post supports in. went with 6 footings, overkill. Just notching and cutting my posts to the heights I need. Some of my beams will be flush mount on concrete on the right side. 2x10s sistered for beams. beams are not in their finished position either. just there for reference leveling.
This image is of the beams and posts just loosely in place. Haven't mounted anything. I want to make sure posts are level
My cell phone definitely has some distortion to the lens. The image makes the slope look steep.
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19488776_10155512251583453_4152699924117356816_o.jpg?oh=f4718f6ce65853c86fad31240ec42024&oe=59CE6255)
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Whats the spacing between those beams? What is your choice for decking?
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Spacing is short less than 42". Planning on using 2x6 for decking. Going to use 2x8 for deck frame. deck frame will be cantilevered over sides of beams about 1.5'. The right side beams will be adjusted when i attach them to extend over to the right a bit more, and almost flush with the posts on the left side. Don't want to be close to that birch.
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Looking good :)
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As far as running conduit and digging, im thinking of digging right before or just after my beams. then carry the conduit the rest of the way attached to beams then punch through decking in the spot i need, rather than digging an 18" deep trench that will disturb my footings and surrounding soil. plus its less digging.
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Spacing is short less than 42". Planning on using 2x6 for decking. Going to use 2x8 for deck frame. deck frame will be cantilevered over sides of beams about 1.5'. The right side beams will be adjusted when i attach them to extend over to the right a bit more, and almost flush with the posts on the left side. Don't want to be close to that birch.
Spacing on the 2x8 joists?
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I ran mine up thru the bottom of the service area. I ran seal-tite right thru the deck and into the connection box. I would switch to seal-tite after I came out of the ground.
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Spacing on Joists will be 12" Oc. with some of the center joists getting sistered. Maybe every other joist gets sistered under the tub space. Definitely going to do some blocking.
I will try that seal tight stuff out. I am running 1.5" PVC pipe underground. Than I can reduce down on the hot tub end like you said.
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Spacing on Joists will be 12" Oc. with some of the center joists getting sistered. Maybe every other joist gets sistered under the tub space. Definitely going to do some blocking.
I will try that seal tight stuff out. I am running 1.5" PVC pipe underground. Than I can reduce down on the hot tub end like you said.
Definitely beefy enough.
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Clear skies this morning let me get a few steps ahead!
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19702275_10155525013578453_3705402752916817351_n.jpg?oh=a3c441a9874572f4c506845604f6902a&oe=59CD14EF)
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Progress is going slow as of lately...
Posts and beams are installed.
Ran my conduit from my main panel into my eaves where i have it coiled up for now. Still have to pull the wire.
Bought a Main Plug-on Neutral Breaker Load center instead of the Spa-Panel disconnect. I have an electrician buddy who guided me in to getting the panel, as I may want to expand my lighting options around where the hot tub will be and I can just use the panel for that in addition to the tub.
Ive been reading some about how the Spa Panel is connected to the main panel. One site indicates "feeder breaker (in the house service panel) must be of the specified size, and that the GFCI breaker in the disconnect panel must be at least that size (larger is fine) and is GFCI protected for safety."
Im confused here...
My GFCI breaker for the hot tub is a 50amp. My breaker for the main panel or feeder panel is 60amp, since I want to add lighting etc... To me it doesn't make sense to have a breaker in the feeder panel be equal or less than the hot tub gfci breaker.
So that would mean I would have to have a 50 amp breaker in the feeder/main or less at the main. That doesnt seem right, right?
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You’re making a sub panel out at your tub no different than someone putting a sub panel in their garage. Many people run a 100a sub to the garage and then out there they will put in a 30a for a welder and a few 20a for plugs and 15 a for lighting etc. the thing is the wire running to the sub has to be sized for the 100a load back at the house.
In your case you ran #6 I think and that should be fine for the 60a breaker in the house. Then you have your 50a protection for the tub plus GFCI and then an additional 15a GFCI for some lighting and the boom box.
My tub is 50a but has two separate breakers in the sub panel one for the heater and one for the pumps. It also has room for a 120v breaker if I ever wanted to add it. At my main panel I feed it from a 50a breaker.
I think you are fine with how you are doing it but if your friend is an electrician run it by him and make sure it is all code where you live.
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You’re making a sub panel out at your tub no different than someone putting a sub panel in their garage. Many people run a 100a sub to the garage and then out there they will put in a 30a for a welder and a few 20a for plugs and 15 a for lighting etc. the thing is the wire running to the sub has to be sized for the 100a load back at the house.
In your case you ran #6 I think and that should be fine for the 60a breaker in the house. Then you have your 50a protection for the tub plus GFCI and then an additional 15a GFCI for some lighting and the boom box.
My tub is 50a but has two separate breakers in the sub panel one for the heater and one for the pumps. It also has room for a 120v breaker if I ever wanted to add it. At my main panel I feed it from a 50a breaker.
I think you are fine with how you are doing it but if your friend is an electrician run it by him and make sure it is all code where you live.
Based off my rusty memory I believe 6 gauge will handle up to 105-110 amps which may work for an application where there isn't a constant heavy load, otherwise to be safe run #4 and you'll be plenty good to tie in a 100amp subpanel
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You’re making a sub panel out at your tub no different than someone putting a sub panel in their garage. Many people run a 100a sub to the garage and then out there they will put in a 30a for a welder and a few 20a for plugs and 15 a for lighting etc. the thing is the wire running to the sub has to be sized for the 100a load back at the house.
In your case you ran #6 I think and that should be fine for the 60a breaker in the house. Then you have your 50a protection for the tub plus GFCI and then an additional 15a GFCI for some lighting and the boom box.
My tub is 50a but has two separate breakers in the sub panel one for the heater and one for the pumps. It also has room for a 120v breaker if I ever wanted to add it. At my main panel I feed it from a 50a breaker.
I think you are fine with how you are doing it but if your friend is an electrician run it by him and make sure it is all code where you live.
Based off my rusty memory I believe 6 gauge will handle up to 105-110 amps which may work for an application where there isn't a constant heavy load, otherwise to be safe run #4 and you'll be plenty good to tie in a 100amp subpanel
There is a calculator for the length of the run also. The longer the run the more amperage drop.
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Ok I should be good to go according to electrician buddy. Load Center is fine and I will never be using more than 60 amps on this center. If for some reason I need to increase it I will run 4awg to the LC. But this is all only for a hot tub and maybe some additional lighting.
Got my panel mounted and my feeder line pulled. I still have to secure my conduit to the exterior wall. Had to use a metal offset cause no one carries a pvc offset in 1.5" diameter. Put some duct seal on the joint to the panel and also on all mounting hardware.
I still have to dig the rest of my trench, attach conduit, pull hot tub wire through and into LC. But I am going to hold off on that portion for now, as it will be awhile before I have the tub delivered and no use having the wire coiled up and left out in the weather.
That leads me to framing my deck, which is the stuff I enjoy doing. Just have to go buy the lumber and hardware.
Pic below is of the mounted panel, 6awg wire and yes I am currently using the panel as storage too for the time being! It's my little area!! I might just throw a beer in there for emergencies.
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Actually the length of the run and the size of the wire cause a higher resistance that causes a voltage drop. The lower voltage the greater the current to do the same job.
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Looks good. A lot of tubs come with the disconnect box they recommend. Depending on what tub you buy you might get a refund if you tell them in the dealing on price you don’t need it. My tub requires two GFCI breakers I have a 20 and a 30 in my box and then have 7 wires running to the tub. Not sure if you mentioned the tub you are getting.
Also just a head up. If you are getting an inspection or down the road you sell your place and someone brings in a home inspector or if you add the tub and addition to your homeowners and they bring someone out to look it over. Romex NM-B like you ran from your homes load panel up thru your attic and out the side of the house and down the conduit I believe is not to code going thru the conduit. It has something to do with heat and the outer insulation etc, I think it is BS also and I ran mine just as you did. But I’m told it might not pass code if the inspector is a stickler for details. You are supposed to transaction to single conductor in a Jbox. For that reason if I was you the underground part I would do with individual conductors and beside that it will be much easier to pull.
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Ya the tub we are getting is the Bullfrog XL7. They do not provide the disconnect box, only the tub. Which I thought was weird but was ok with it.
I left some extra wire in eaves, so if it has to be junctioned then it should be length enough to do so. The conduit in the line through the eaves is 3/4 LiquidTight. I only added it for protection against rodents cause we get mice every so often, they havent chewed through wire that I know of yet but wanted to take precaution. The Romex coming out of eaves/soffit is running down ext wall with 1.5" pvc conduit. So I could have probably just laid/ran the romex without the conduit in the eaves?
As far as going exterior, is romex for direct burial than? if not in conduit? Or like you said, it is supposed to be stripped down to individual wires, Pos, Neg, Neut, Ground, then run through conduit underground? I still havent ran the underground stuff, so I may at least get half of the job right still. lol
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The direct burial wire is #6/3 UF-B W/ Ground. You can’t bury the “romex” #6-3 NM-B W/ Ground. You also can’t take the conductors out of the outer sheath and run them thru conduit as they are not marked as individual wires would be. What you would run there is #6AGW THHN. You can use all the same wire but mark the ends with colored tape. RBWG
I personally wouldn’t do direct burial wire for the same rodent reasons you mentioned plus once you have the conduit in down the road if you ever need a new wire you can pull it thru.
I am not a professional but to the best of my abilities I believe what I just told you is code.
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Great minds think alike...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4282/35477331830_507063296f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W41AK1)IMG_0245 (https://flic.kr/p/W41AK1) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4258/35696375232_a44aa21ed5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WonfHo)IMG_0249 (https://flic.kr/p/WonfHo) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4277/35055975583_775bb4e74d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VpM3d8)IMG_0247 (https://flic.kr/p/VpM3d8) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
2x10 treated cross-beams have been installed on 24" centers and it will get two layers of 3/4" exterior plywood. The Sundance Aspen is being delivered this Thursday!
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Clarkp...so you opted to do more footings and beams for a plywood decking. Posts, footings and beams look great. Not sure about the 3/4 ply though and terms of how well it will hold up. You will have to keep us posted on that.
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I would suggest Pressure treated plywood over exterior plywood decking for a hot tub application, if a smooth surface like plywood was needed. There are grades of PT that can even be used for basement walls. The PT IMO would hold up great.
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They make marine grade ply too. Also they have some plastic coating you can get to paint on to seal for years.
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(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4304/35490351390_99e95d5f20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W5ak1b)IMG_0263 (https://flic.kr/p/W5ak1b) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
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Yes, the main load supports are 10" sonotubes with concrete saddles just like yours. Then there are 9 - 6x6 treated posts mounted in concrete for a total of 13 supports. The main load beams and perimeter beams are Boise Cascade "Versa Lam" laminated structural beams. These are 1.75" thick by 9.5" deep each. The main three center beams are doubled up, glued and lagged together.
The cross pieces are just regular pressure-treated 2x10s.
The top decking will be two layers of 3/4" pressure treated plywood - glued and screwed for a total plywood thickness of 1.5"
... or my new Sundance will be sliding down that hill... :(
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Yesterday I finished the frame of my deck, sqaured it off and is resting in position where I want it. Today not much else I want to do in the rain. Still need to ad hurricane ties and blocking inbetween the joists. I sistered up 3 of the joists in the center and may do more. I used construction adhesive over the joint of the sister to prvent water from getting inbetween the sister and rotting them out. I also used tar tape for the beams to prevent the same thing.
Looking back at this, I wish I had gone the route of purchasing 6 inch I-Beams instead. but oh well.
Clarkp I like how yours is a more low profile deck and didnt need to raise it up much. My footings are 12" at 48" deep. I had though about diggin more footing and going the route you went but with my luck i would have run into more root and large stone or ledge issues.
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Juke... my original plan was exactly what you have done. However, during a trip to 84 Lumber for an unrelated project I spotted those Boise Cascade Versa Lam beams - that was a game-changer. With those I was able to re-consider the post locations and cut the deck height in half. Those beams are basically 1.75" thick plywood - 9.5 inches deep. I finished my tub support deck (the perimeter people deck construction will begin immediately) Wednesday night and this is what happened yesterday morning...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4281/35109988073_ff4b08f905_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VuxSeX)IMG_0269 (https://flic.kr/p/VuxSeX) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/35878351316_d11ac70ba5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WErVS5)IMG_0282 (https://flic.kr/p/WErVS5) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
I wish the cover would stow lower but the Sundance Aspen has a somewhat rounded end so the mounts keep the cover high. We arranged it such that the cover stows between the tub and the house which maintains the view of the lake on the other side.
Keep us up to date with your construction, delivery and installation!
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Might want to build a little platform on the side to make it safer to get in/out of, when you go to build the stairs...
Looks good though..
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Of course... the whole idea was to get the main load-bearing structure done in time for the tub delivery. As it was, I had to work till 9 p.m. the night before delivery happened just to get everything ready to receive the tub.
As I mentioned before, there will be a fairly extensive deck system built around the tub as we go forward from here. These pictures show the temporary platform I did to serve us in the interim.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4310/35131428444_3d1da0f142_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VwrKHw)IMG_0283 (https://flic.kr/p/VwrKHw) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4303/35800698052_6a2a3f2c3e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WxzWfG)IMG_0284 (https://flic.kr/p/WxzWfG) by Clark Pittman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cp4/), on Flickr
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Looks great Clarkp.
Today I finished the burial of my wire. Tomorrow I am going to start staining the beams and joists. Some will disagree staining it this early but the wood I bought was already looking pretty dry and it has been baking in the sun for this week. Before I do that though I need to flush cut my beams to my deck width. I wasnt sure what size deck I wanted to build and settled on a size after the beams were in place. so excess beam ends are going to come off. I am right there with you about getting a foundation ready for tub and wiring, saving stairs for last.I have the tub people emailing me asking when they can deliver. Gonna get deck boards soon. Going with 5/4x6. Was going to do 2x6 but think it will be overkill.
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Sounds like progress Juke. Don't use a stain that has a "clear coat" finish to it - use something that is just a stain / sealer with no polyurethane-type top finish. Anything like that will start peeling not long after you apply it - it becomes a maintenance nightmare.
We're enjoying the tub even though its been over a 100 degrees for the past week or so. It's tough trying to keep the tub down around 94-95 degrees. The Sundance air jets do help it feel a little cooler. The water gets up to 97 pretty fast with two or three people in it.
I think I'm going the 5/4 decking route as well; smoother and hopefully less warping in the sun. The Trex stuff looks nice but $35 for a 16 foot stick?! Woof!
I would love to find some reclaimed teak boards but I'm sure those would be in high demand and quite expensive.
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Those damn post to concrete footing adapters suck I am realizing. I laid my deck boards on the deck loosely and began to jump on the deck and the adapters cause the posts to shift slightly. Im annoyed. But i think once the weight of the tub is on there it shouldnt have any issues. Wonder if there are adapters for after the fact. just in case.
I am going to do a solid color stain. It's BEHR brand so not sure if it has poly. Ill take a gander at that before I do anything. Worse case is that I wait till the deck is dried out a bit more. Currently have it covered with a tarp. Rain expected. I know rain won't hurt it, but want to keep it dry to help it dry out faster.
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That’s the reason I did all the cross bracing on my deck. You don’t want any of that sway movement if you can help it.
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Wonder if I should add some 2x10 blocking inbetween the beems. I know the thing isnt going to sway up and out of the footings for sure. but like you said the lateral or sway movement might be an issue.
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Any movement is a wear point and with time will cause things to loosen. Triangulation is the best way to solve it. One in each direction should do it.
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Started painting the frame of the deck today.
That front post closest in your view is the one that wiggles. It's the concrete tie that wiggles in the crete. I know its not going anywhere and imagine that it loosened up when smacking my bolts in for the beams. None of the deck joists wiggle or move, those are all tied to the beams with hurricane ties.
I guess I could add bracing across to each post. These are really the only posts on the deck. The 3 other footing contacts are straight beam to concrete. It's not wiggling or moving forward or backward.
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Oh and ClarkP, I stole your paint color!
LOL Just Kidding!
I literally went into home depot and randomly pointed at a color and told them that the wife doesnt care what color so neither do I. Twirled my finger over the color pamphlet and viola. Padre Brown is the color name. Father Brown? Chaplain Brown?
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Padre Brown?! Must be referring to the cloaks the Catholic missionaries wore down here in Los Texas. Nice color though! Looking good. Too dang hot down here to wear anything like that now.
I don't think you're going to have any trouble with any 'swaying'. Once the tub is in place and filled with water - it ain't going no where.
When are they delivering your tub? Pay close attention when the setup guys run through your chemicals! I finally purchased a Taylor K-2106 FAS-DPD Bromine test kit to get a good handle on the water chemistry. I think I'm finally getting a handle on it.
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Supposed to call the tub company today for delivery in 2 weeks. Problem is that i still need to add the decking and paint. My electrician friend came over and finished my connections in the house and in the panel. just need to add the conduit whip over the wire on the tub end.
Picked up 6 peices of reclaimed granite curb for $90. 2 will act as stairs and the others not sure what ill do with them.
I will look for that test kit.
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Dude! Those stones look amazing! Nice find...
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Almost done! Set a delivery date of August 11!
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Today's the 11th... where are the installation pictures?
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Pics are below. We are enjoying the hot tub greatly! Install went really smooth and without any issues.
We did have a period of cloudy water which we resolved. Will be posting in the forum for solutions to insulate the hot tub for better heat retention during the next 6 months. I am looking into constructing a foam board insert to place just under the cover to aid in preventing heat loss. The foam board wont touch be resting on teh water, but a few inches above. Just something to better trap the heat.
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Juke, that looks amazing! Nice work and attention to detail! Super happy everything went off without a hitch. Diggin' the tiki torches BTW!
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I still need to do some landscaping around the deck but not a priority.
I need a good how to guide on insulating a hot tub. Ive been reading on some sites that the best start is the top and the gap in between the water and the cover. Then adding baffles of insulation in the access panel.
Anyone have any advice on insulation methods?
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good looking install! now please remove those warning stickers on the spa, it's making my OCD kick in :-) :-)
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LOL!! I did finally remove them!
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I still need to do some landscaping around the deck but not a priority.
I need a good how to guide on insulating a hot tub. Ive been reading on some sites that the best start is the top and the gap in between the water and the cover. Then adding baffles of insulation in the access panel.
Anyone have any advice on insulation methods?
Don’t suffocate the pumps, board, heater in insulation. Sundance does a good job insulating their tubs. Why do you feel you need to insulate it more? I think they make a thermal blanket Jacuzzi/Sundance sells for the equipment bay I have used them on a couple of Caldera Spas. My customers haven’t really noticed a difference.
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That turned out NICE!!
Good work.
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like mentioned don't go overboard stuffing your equipment compartment with extra insulation, pumps can run upwards of 150+ degrees and they need some type of fresh air intake to operate properly, if you cover up an intake or overload that area with extra insulation you can burn out your electronics.
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Ya I was going to start with 2 inch foam board and cut a custom insert to lay flush on top of the hot tub without interfering with the cover. The foam board wouldnt come in direct contact with the water, but seal the heat in and reduce some of that gap between the cover and water.
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Nice job!