Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: autoplay on August 09, 2004, 05:27:24 pm
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I suggest you buy a shell and a frame,and build one yourself. As you're not willing to work WITH the dealers etc....I think your best course of action is to skip any and all dealerships,and buy 1 from the big box stores.
You could always purchase a CaVeN too,as it's the best internet spa out there,and if you don't believe me,you can ask the spa deceptionist yourself.
Lastly,to be painfully honest.......I wouldn't sell you a used,sun bleached Phoenix for 25,000 dollars. You are the last customer I would want or desire.
P.S. ... besides not owning a business,what do you do for a living?
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I also want to know your income so I can base my selling price on that! ;D
Please bring in your credit history so I know your debt load and what you can afford.
Steve
Don't you just hate me! ;)
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:-[
I think the above posters forgot to add the "nothing personal" to the end of their messages!
Shop around as much as you want, D&C. I don't agree with it beyond a certain price point but no one can tell you how to spend your money. Next years models will be more expensive as most dealers up the price about $500 each year. However, sometimes you can get a "last year" model for less money.
Part of the pirce you pay is for warranty. If that isn't attractive to you, there are many classified ads selling 2002 and 2003 hot tubs. I saw a HS grandee, 2003, for something like $6k when I was looking for a tub, but I wanted the warranty.
Best of luck.
-Ed
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I think the above posters forgot to add the "nothing personal" to the end of their messages!
Nope.. I didn't thanks Ed. ;D
Why not turn it around on dazed? He thinks he should get to see the dealers costs so HE can determine what HE wants to pay.
I say, let the dealers see his credit rating and bank account statement so THEY can determine want THEY want to charge him! Why not I say? It's his mentality, not mine. :-/
It's a game he's playing Ed. It's not real life.
Steve
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Maybe its wishful thinking, but I always understood that prices for things like hot tubs, cars, Rx meds, electronics etc. had other factors built in to the price: research and development, marketing, quality assurance, engineering. You cant just boil it down to the materials and some hours of labor. Thats not gonna give you a fair price for both consumer/manufacturer.
My dad worked for GM for years. Cadillacs and Corvettes do not really cost $35,000 more to manufacture than the Chevys do. Its all in the features, engineering and design. Otherwise, they're all just bent metal and fiberglass on 4wheels, right? But to drive a Corvette or a Chevy Malibu, you feel the difference.
D&C, I dont understand what your true objective is. You want to buy a tub at cost? Or you want to decide how much profit is fair to a dealer? Its one thing to do research and find a good tub, its another to imply that all tub dealers are crooks trying to rip you off. Its gotta take alot of energy to be that paranoid all the time.
I agree with the post above, check out the used tubs in your area. I dont think you will ever forgive yourself if you buy new, you will always worry that the dealer made a profit from your sale.
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My suggestion for the people (dazedandconfused and needaspa) that have a problem with dealers over priced spas is to view the attached link, and sign up to win a free spa, and you also get a free Trex deck:
http://www.hotspring.com/Spa_Notes_Hot_Tub/trex_deck_spa.html#Rules
If you win you will not be complaining about your $8,500 dollar overpriced piece of plastic. If you were wondering, Hotspring can give one away because they make so much money on each one.
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D&C
Just curious(sp). What line of work are you in?
I kinda have to agree, spend YOUR money the way you want. But don't tell us what it takes to run OUR business.
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Almost 24 hours has elapsed and no sign of D&C. He must be wet-testing spas for the umphteenth time.
P.S. ... What line of work are you in D&C?
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Need Opinions FAST
« on: Posted by dazedand confused Jun 24th, 2004, 10:00am » Quote:
Well, after weeks on this forum and others and countless hours of research, wet tests, etc, I am thinking about buying the following:
Sundance Cameo
Cover
Chemicals
SunLift
SunGlow Multicolor Light
SunZone CD Ozone
Exterior Perimeter Lights
Handi Step
MicroClean Filter
Drink Tray
SunScents
I have been quoted 7900 total. I am asking 7500 total. My budget was 7000 but I thought the dealer and I could or might split the difference.
Any advice?
Thanks
Good thing we all responded FAST! Watta joke and I feel foolish for being sucked into this charade too!
Steve
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Lets just make an assumption that D&C makes $6 an hour in his line of work.
Only getting two days off a week.
Now...only having two days off a week I figure my days off are worth at least double to me
D&C's assumed time off --------- $12 an hour
two days of looking 16 hours
-------------------
$192 per week looking
Registered and looking
for almost 3 months $576
So assuming D&C only makes $6 an hour and has looked/thought about "the best price" on his/her assumed two days off each week for the amount of time he/she has been registered with this forum has wasted $576 "looking for the best price" Double that if D&C makes a "livable" income in the mid-west ($12 an hour). Thats over a thousand dollars.
Keep looking, it'll be worth your while.
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Need Opinions FAST
« on: Posted by dazedand confused Jun 24th, 2004, 10:00am » Quote:
Well, after weeks on this forum and others and countless hours of research, wet tests, etc, I am thinking about buying the following:
Sundance Cameo
Cover
Chemicals
SunLift
SunGlow Multicolor Light
SunZone CD Ozone
Exterior Perimeter Lights
Handi Step
MicroClean Filter
Drink Tray
SunScents
I have been quoted 7900 total. I am asking 7500 total. My budget was 7000 but I thought the dealer and I could or might split the difference.
Any advice?
Thanks
7900 for all that?? :o Where are you, who's the dealer??? My Sundace dealer is quoting me 8300 and I only get the CD ozone and a cover lift....... maybe I should rethink this..... nah I want the spa and good times. ;D
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Funny stuff...
Dazed, I really feel sorry for you being out-numbered on this one. I'm just a regular customer too, and I thought I was particular about several thousand dollars but... at some point it's time to literally take the plunge. I should have my tub on-deck and running within a week :o whahooo!!!!!!!!!! No regrets.
Buckeye
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I want to be clear here. Very clear...
I, in no way, am against people spending the time needed to make an educated, smart purchase. I'm not one to spend years purchasing anything but I do consider myself thorough.
What dazed has done here is turn this into a circus and taken advantage of people that are genuine in their offer to help others. This is a guy that will step over a dollar to pick up a nickle.
He posts months ago needing immediate help, then eventually posts saying he's made up his mind. Then he asks one of the most bizarre questions a month later that I've ever seen that shows just how little he really has digested here. He posts under multiple names and personally, he's offended me and others by taking advantage of some great people here.
Steve
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Prizes: One (1) Hot Spring Envoy spa to be awarded by Sponsor. Prize includes delivery and installation of the Hot Spring Envoy spa, to be arranged for by Watkins Manufacturing at the address stated on the winner's registration form. Approximate retail value $7,000.00.
This is a quote from the hotsprings sweepstakes....please note the RETAIL value for an Envoy.
There needsaspa/d&c.....theres your ammunition,, straight from the manufacture itself.
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Almost 24 hours has elapsed and no sign of D&C. He must be wet-testing spas for the umphteenth time.
If you want D/C to post, you have to use bait:
I just bought a new 2004 Sundance Cameo with stereo, lights, steps, cover, lifter, startup chemicals, ozone, and the remote control.
I got this for $7,000, and the dealer paid my sales tax for me and threw in a free ducky.
Spashoppergoodealguy
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Need Opinions FAST
« on: Posted by dazedand confused Jun 24th, 2004, 10:00am » Quote:
Well, after weeks on this forum and others and countless hours of research, wet tests, etc, I am thinking about buying the following:
Sundance Cameo
Cover
Chemicals
SunLift
SunGlow Multicolor Light
SunZone CD Ozone
Exterior Perimeter Lights
Handi Step
MicroClean Filter
Drink Tray
SunScents
I have been quoted 7900 total. I am asking 7500 total. My budget was 7000 but I thought the dealer and I could or might split the difference.
Any advice?
Thanks
Good thing we all responded FAST! Watta joke and I feel foolish for being sucked into this charade too!
Steve
Ill say it again.....for $500 or 6.3% (average sales tax rate) of the purchase price your are tubless. Just plain dumb............if your time is worth $10.00 per hour, I assume it is...you are losing money by continuing your research LOL
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Bodguy,
The $7000 retail value is 'retail' value. The manuf could put any price under 'retail' they like. It is interesting though that they would advertise a retail that is roughly 1500 to 2000 less then what dealers are quoting! Go figure! It's a crock!
I am interested in invoice (cost from factory) value. That is only the true number that buyers can use in their 'arsenal'. Dealers do have costs - I am not stupid - but we need a baseline when comparing dealers quotes. Otherwise, buyers have no idea of what is a fair value. It's that simple. For example, all HS dealers could collude and sell the vista for $10000 (for example) when the true cost is $5000 (for example). Net, buyers were taken for $5k. But since they colluded, buyers have no idea what was cost and were taken to the bank.
Dealers are in the business to make $$. I am sure no one will argue that. They do not care about buyers! Its how much that that can add to the bottom line.
In a true competitive market, we would know all costs. All dealers would be selling at or near the same cost. Unfortunately, in the spa industry, dealers are getting buy with forms of monopoly and can charge whatever they like. There is only 1 SD and 1 HS and I Jacuzzi on average per geographic area, how is that competitive?
I should be an economics professor or better yet an attorney that would go after these manufs!
D/C
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Wow.
If you can get your dealer to go that low good luck. I doubt it because it could set a precedent. All dealers I know go by word of mouth. I haven't seen any tv ads for any hot tub dealers in my area. And if I hear you got a tub for $7k I am not going to pay 1 penny more and, in fact, want to pay a little less, when *I* go in.
That is why your dealer will not go that low. And if less profit means taking down the neon signs, firing the in-house spa technician, or only being able to afford your 14 year old nephew as a cashier then that makes you *less* competative against other markets.
People who seek invoice for a luxury item are the exception, not the rule, and dealers that pander to them too much go under in a truly competative market. Your dealer is just being a good capitalist.
Every point you make about how you would *like* your world to be structured is a fancy bit of rationalization.
-Ed
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Bodguy,
(Much inane drivel chopped)
- I am not stupid -
D/C
Wanna put that one to a vote?
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D/C
we cannot place a "value'' on a product, we can place a perceived value on it. You have placed a "value" of $7000 on the product, which the dealer could sell it for by not make the profit he needs to stay in business.
Huh? made a good point, the time and effort you have spent "researching' this purchase has probably cost you in some way. Time away from doing activities you enjoy,time away from family, work you could be doing instead of posting on web boards. The price of $7900 with those options is lower than waht I'm seen Optimas for. Obviously you don't think the value is there for you, I would move on before it costs me any more time and money.
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D/C
I don’t care about you whole post except for this comment: “They do not care about buyers!”
Who the hell are you kidding? Where do you have the right to say that? If we didn’t care about our customers we would not have customers.
Back to the rest of your post:
Let’s use your analogy of the Vista (by the way did you sign up to try to win an Envoy):
It costs $5,000 from the manufacturer (It does not. I can guarantee you it is absolutely much more expensive than that).
Accessories:
I need to pay for delivery to my warehouse. To the east coast it costs $350. You want an ozonator. It costs $165. You want a Hotspring cover cradle. It costs $225. You want an LED light. It costs $130. You want a starter chemical package. It costs $150 (took a guess).
We are now at a total cost of $6,020.
Installation:
We also must include delivery to your house and installation of your options that you purchased (LED Light, Ozonator, Cover Cradle) Bear with me, I am going to do some math here:
It takes on average 4 people to deliver a spa. It tends to take about 4 hours to deliver the spa (this includes drive time). For 4 people, for four hours, making 20 dollars an hour it costs you $320 dollars for your delivery.
It takes 1 person an hour to install an ozonator. Cost $20 dollars.
It takes 1 person an hour to install a Cover Cradle. Cost $20 dollars.
It takes 1 person a half-hour to install a LED light. Cost $10 dollars.
Total Cost for optional features $370 dollars.
We are now at a total cost of $6,390.
Commission:
We have now $3,610 to spend for expenses. The biggest up-front and noticeable expense is commission. Most sales people get between a 5% and a 10% commission. You don’t even want to get into the cost if it is a hit team member selling at a fair or a home show.
Lets use an average figure of 7.5% of the total purchase price. That now costs the dealer $750 dollars.
Your profit has now gone from $3,610 to $2,860. This $2,860 needs to pay for the following: building, worker’s comp insurance, health insurance, trailer, car to deliver the spa, that person testing your water, advertising, and 4 years of Harvard for the dealer’s daughter.
Oh and I forgot, I just saw on Dr. Spa’s site that a Vista sold for $8,529. Let see how the numbers work out now.
$8529 Spa Purchase Price
($1,020) Accessories
($370) Installation charges
($640) Commission (7.5% X $8,529)
(5,000) Dealer cost for spa (actual dealer cost much higher)
$1,499 Is that a profit I see? Oh wait I have to pay for my building, worker’s comp insurance, health insurance, trailer, car to deliver the spa, that person testing your water, and 4 years of Harvard for the dealer’s daughter.
Do you honestly believe dealers are ripping you off?
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Wanna put that one to a vote?
OOh! I wanna vote! Pick Me! Pick Me!
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How about looking at it like this.
A HUGE dealer might be selling 400 spas a year. If you cut his price by $500 per spa he's now losing $200,000.00 per year. Where does that 200k come from? His pocket! I can pretty much guarantee that NO dealer is making that kind of money (Chas and myself excluded ;D ;D ).
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In a true competitive market, we would know all costs. All dealers would be selling at or near the same cost.
I should be an economics professor or better yet an attorney that would go after these manufs!
D/C
Sounds more like communism to me.
Right after completing 2 years of law school, I took myself right up to a masters in public management and economics because that proved more interesting to me. Judging from the structure of your thoughts and your approach in making your case, I am supremely confident in saying that you fail miserably in economics and should you decide to represent yourself in the judiciary you would find yourself paying out enormous legal fines for slanderous accusations. But rather than listening to little me and so many others here that have distinguished themselves as valuable resources
BTW. you have more than enough info. Stop the ranting and buy the tub or not. But if you continue as D/C or some other pseudonym, I will again re-iterate, do something about it and open up your own dealership so that you can prove all others here wrong. Of course you could always revert to the courts to get satisfaction since you are so convinced that there is a complicity from the manufacturers. And since you are obviously so well versed in the legal world, you should have no problems in proving your case. But hey this is a free market economy so go ahead Don Quichote.
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OOh! I wanna vote! Pick Me! Pick Me!
OOOOH OOOH no, over here! over here! Me first!
LOL!
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How about looking at it like this.
A HUGE dealer might be selling 400 spas a year. If you cut his price by $500 per spa he's now losing $200,000.00 per year. Where does that 200k come from? His pocket! I can pretty much guarantee that NO dealer is making that kind of money (Chas and myself excluded ;D ;D ).
And you make that just on coversavers, right?
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'How about looking at it like this.
A HUGE dealer might be selling 400 spas a year. If you cut his price by $500 per spa he's now losing $200,000.00 per year. Where does that 200k come from? His pocket! I can pretty much guarantee that NO dealer is making that kind of money (Chas and myself excluded '
No, you are wrong. If you cut your prices 500, that is $500 less profit. That is not coming out of your pocket!
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Why don't we cut our loses with Dazed and stop playing his game. Let him post to himself as I'm sure if we leave him long enough, he'll start responding to his own amazingly senseless posts as a sport.
eww eww misa Kotter miser Kotter
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500 less times 400 - hmmmm, unless theres some new math I dont know about, that is 200k in lost profits (which happen to pay all the overhead, workmen's comp, shipping, rent, etc).
How many dealers here have free rent, free insurance, free utilities, free shipping and other "neccessities" that make up overhead?
Get serious! Either buy the dang thing, or dont waste folks time here.
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I really wanted to stay out of this thread, but I will add this:
I truly think most buyers want a store they can go to. They feel better about shopping in a "brick and mortar" place: even if they go to a couple to learn about the item and then buy the item online. But one way or another, a store generally comes into the purchase of big-ticket items.
And after the purchase, we all have a question or two about the care and feeding of our purchases. Again, a store that you can call or go to is something we generally take for granted.
I would like to point out that I spend $60K on rent alone for one store, $25K for the second store, and $8K for the warehouse (not counting the forklift) each year. That means that I have to sell quite a few tubs just to pay the rent - before I start working on the other costs, such as:
yellow-page ads ($10k per year) and newspaper advertising ($15k per year or more) direct-mail,
staff - don't ever think that what you earn per hour is all it costs your employer to have you around!! -
electricity, building maint., display items, phone bills, software and computer systems and upkeep for same, an accountant, legal retainer, training and other seminars, trucks and trailers, all the licensing for the above, biz cards and other printing, office supplies and machines, tools, shipping costs, spoilage and shrinkage (when my guys tear a cover or scratch a spa I don't get to charge the customer to fix it...), cell phones, a home office with networking to keep an eye on the stores, uniforms, and don't even get me started on Insurance - I may very well pay out more than D&C earns on insurance alone.
And whlie my staff is made up of some of finest people I know, when people ask me what I do for a living, I jokingly say, "I support a small army of people who's job it is to see to it that I don't have any excess money left at the end of the year."
Now - my operation is tiny compared to some out there. Any one of use who walks into a major retailer is going to be paying a little part of their overhead as well. And if you think they can build those nice-looking auto dealerships and keep them running without taking something out of the price of each item sold....
My point is that you can, and most likely will, drive yourself nuts if you go around trying to grind off the profit for a spa purchase. If the store owner/operator knows what they are doing, they will maintain a margin that keeps them in business. And whether you will admit it nor not, you will profit from them being there now, and in the future.
I make a good living at what I do - although my stores only represent part of my income - but I also am not limited to just a 40-hour week, nor do I get to leave my cell phone off when I am away. My 'day off' means I might only get 5 calls with fires to put out instead of 25. If I am lying awake on any given night, there is generally only one choice if you wanted to guess what I am thinking of. Look at the times for my posts - they are often made when I get up at some odd hour and go to the computer to look at a report, balance sheet, account status or what-have-you.
And if any of a dozen people mess up, it comes out of my pocket. It's called risk.
If you want to go into business, do it. You will never be more in control of your life. But count on this: every decision you make must be just right, 'cause the one you blow may be the one that costs you everything you have.
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Get serious! Either buy the dang thing, or dont waste folks time here.
Could you imagine being in line behind D/C at the drive-up window of a fast food restaurant? :-[
"Lady, I'm not obligating to a menu item until you tell me what you guy's pay for those chicken nuggets!!" ;D
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Great post chas.
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why is it that NeedaSpa mysteriously stopped posting about the same time dazed and confused started. Needaspa's post is eerily similar to dazed and confused's about price and options on the optima.
Remeber your not paranoid if they are actually after you.
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Although I agree with some of his points, I am not Needaspa. Sorry.
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Stuart,
You would probably say here is $4 for the nuggets that cost $0.50!
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I am a twit.
We agree.
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I think it's either the thrill of the chase/deal that he trys to get lower and lower without purchasing, or the fact that maybe it's the fun of yanking everybody's chain and seeing how many he can get long, well thought out responses from and ignore them. I find it interesting that D/C seems willing to accept that cost to the dealer from the manufacturer isn't grossly overpriced as well, or maybe he just hasn't gone there-yet. Why stop there? I'm sure the price of the raw materials to make the spa are grossly overpriced. How much profit must all these middlemen be making? Go out and make one yourself.
Honestly D/C, you have to decide what having a spa is worth to you and find something that works in your budget. And then after doing all your "research" go out and buy one from the guy with the white van on the corner.
In any case, I think you've exhausted the resources here and need to research elsewhere. :)
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D/C
I don’t care about you whole post except for this comment: “They do not care about buyers!”
Who the hell are you kidding? Where do you have the right to say that? If we didn’t care about our customers we would not have customers.
Back to the rest of your post:
Let’s use your analogy of the Vista (by the way did you sign up to try to win an Envoy):
It costs $5,000 from the manufacturer (It does not. I can guarantee you it is absolutely much more expensive than that).
Accessories:
I need to pay for delivery to my warehouse. To the east coast it costs $350. You want an ozonator. It costs $165. You want a Hotspring cover cradle. It costs $225. You want an LED light. It costs $130. You want a starter chemical package. It costs $150 (took a guess).
We are now at a total cost of $6,020.
Installation:
We also must include delivery to your house and installation of your options that you purchased (LED Light, Ozonator, Cover Cradle) Bear with me, I am going to do some math here:
It takes on average 4 people to deliver a spa. It tends to take about 4 hours to deliver the spa (this includes drive time). For 4 people, for four hours, making 20 dollars an hour it costs you $320 dollars for your delivery.
It takes 1 person an hour to install an ozonator. Cost $20 dollars.
It takes 1 person an hour to install a Cover Cradle. Cost $20 dollars.
It takes 1 person a half-hour to install a LED light. Cost $10 dollars.
Total Cost for optional features $370 dollars.
We are now at a total cost of $6,390.
Commission:
We have now $3,610 to spend for expenses. The biggest up-front and noticeable expense is commission. Most sales people get between a 5% and a 10% commission. You don’t even want to get into the cost if it is a hit team member selling at a fair or a home show.
Lets use an average figure of 7.5% of the total purchase price. That now costs the dealer $750 dollars.
Your profit has now gone from $3,610 to $2,860. This $2,860 needs to pay for the following: building, worker’s comp insurance, health insurance, trailer, car to deliver the spa, that person testing your water, advertising, and 4 years of Harvard for the dealer’s daughter.
Oh and I forgot, I just saw on Dr. Spa’s site that a Vista sold for $8,529. Let see how the numbers work out now.
$8529 Spa Purchase Price
($1,020) Accessories
($370) Installation charges
($640) Commission (7.5% X $8,529)
(5,000) Dealer cost for spa (actual dealer cost much higher)
$1,499 Is that a profit I see? Oh wait I have to pay for my building, worker’s comp insurance, health insurance, trailer, car to deliver the spa, that person testing your water, and 4 years of Harvard for the dealer’s daughter.
Do you honestly believe dealers are ripping you off?
That was my post :)
My tub was delivered an hour ago, pictures coming soon!
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Children
Credibility is lost when you criticize a potential customer.
I am stunned that the beatings reserved for Phoenix and Jim A are now being done to a buyer.
You know, some folks have a very hard time making a purchase - I came from such a place, and it took years for me to realize I was slowly killing myself.
That is why I shoot for fair deals not best deals.
It saves a lot of time and money - and often (if the item is proper) I get better craftsmanship.
Now back off this buyer - either help him or not - that is your choice, but your credibility and your professionalism are shot with each blast.
Dazed buy it when you decide you are ready to, but don't go whining and complaining and trying to fix a system that is set up the way it is, it cannot be fixed.
These people have tried to help you and you have failed for whatever reason to grasp what they are trying to help you with.
If you pay an additional $500 and are done with the search can you attribute the extra money to not stressing any longer, to actually using the product, etc, etc.
Maybe you can them to offer additional stuff instead of any further discounts.
That may be the real solution.
I understand your affliction, my mother had it, and 2 sisters have it, my brother sees only cash value in anything and everything - we have not spoken in over 5 years.
Get over this you need to get some help - it is a problem and it will/may affect adversely for the rest of your life.
I have had to fix numerous problems because my mother needed the best deal - well the best deal often ended up needing many repairs and fixes to be a good deal - I was the fixer.
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If someone was asking for detremental information about your industry I am sure you would get a little defensive as well.
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This is kinda related.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/07/05/national1332EDT0564.DTL
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Whoa.
1. I am not strictly defending anyone. I actually understand each side of this.]
2. My dad (still living WWII vet) was in the shoe biz for around 60 years. I know what customer service is and learned it from him.
IF this customer is getting too close for your comfort you courtiously back away, and stop - maybe even tell him so.
COnversely, if the industry was not set up in the fashion that it is - with no competition execpt brand to brand instead of multiple dealers sellling the same brand and if pricing was more realistic or more easily obtained, well he'da probably bought whatever he wanted by now.
It is a 2 way street. Beating on and publically berating the customer does any dealer anything positive - it simply makes the buyer more confused, more defensive and more suspect of alterior motives. And it kills any credibility you have.
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Whoa.
1. I am not strictly defending anyone. I actually understand each side of this.]
At nearly 700 posts, I've been staying out of this one. ;D
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Just one question for D/C. Have you considered removing some of the options to get your price down the $500? Do you really need the aroma therapy, drink tray, exterior lights NOW. Could you get them later? Those things alone should bring the price down your $500....... Is the price or the enjoyment of the tub the most important thing to you??
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My God! I had no idea the complications of spa buying. I just walked into my dealer and asked how much for this one and this one. I was looking at the Cameo, and the Bahia. I got a price quote on both, went with the Bahia due to my budget, got the dealer to throw in some goodies and "TA DA", I owned a spa, and we've been using it almost every night for the past 2 months. Look at all the wasted spa time D/C. I'd really hate to imagine what your brain is doing as you go to sleep at night. Mine is relaxed from the enjoyment fo the spa I just got out of.
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That, Scout045, is because you "GET" it.
Brewman
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No. Scout045's already GOT it and enjoying it.
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You said it Baby!!! LOL