Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Jostudly on June 16, 2016, 05:21:00 pm
-
HI I have a 5 person Hydropool Serenity tub that I filled last Oct. So its been 8 months on the same water using bromine and my TDS is only at 1400. I was told to wait till the TDS reached 2500 before I would need to change the water. There is only 2 of us using the tub on avg 2-3 times a week and I get the water tested at the dealer once a week. Also change the filter once a week and add any chemicals if needed. I would think I would have to change the water every 3 months so either I am doing good with the water testing or the TDS is wrong on the tests. Anyone else have a low TDS after this long or only change the water once or twice a year?
-
If your not on some kind of water restrictions, 8 months regardless is about 3 months too long. Longest I have gone was a year, and I have my chems down to an art and about as simple as you can get. I do mine about every 5 months or so, you will notice how much nicer the water feels and smells after a water change.
-
Be sure to use a plumbing cleaner prior to draining the tub. One of the #1 reasons for water chemistry and clarity issues are from biofilm build-up. Biofilm is present in every single hot tub no matter what chemical program is used. Periodically, you have to "purge" and remove it so maintenance issues do not crop up. Unfortunately, many dealers and manufacturers don't want to make a big deal of this as they think potential buyers will be turned off if they knew what bacterial biofilm can cause.
-
someguy is right about the biofilm potential in all hot tubs. Frankly, TDS may be a useful parameter but I personally would not use it as the indicator for draining. Its not a bad thing to watch, but it is a poor indicator of water health. In fact it really doesn't tell you anything about water health. Clear water is also a poor indicator of water health, because biofilms and bad guys can still be living in your pipes.
I would be particularly worried about a new hot tub, as from personal experience and (quite literally) thousands of gallons of water used in testing purge products, I can tell you that new hot tubs are to be especially suspect, and I encourage all owners to specifically disregard any assurances to the contrary from manufacturers and retailers. remember their motivation is to reduce the perception of risk, and present a life style of luxury and ease without worry. take ownership yourself
Water balance parameters are important, absolutely, but they are not a reliable indicator of water health either, especially if they are measured only once per week. proper water balance simply means that all the targeted numbers are correct -- all good but, again, not to be used by themselves to indicate healthy water. On this subject I would say do yourself a favor and learn to test water parameters yourself. The spa store tests are good, don't get me wrong, but they won't give you the daily insights you need to really have confidence in your water. I recommend depending on your own tests, and using the store as a supplement or secondary source of confirmation. there is no substitute for trusting yourself, and it can be expertly performed by non-technical people, I can tell you. you will find good support here for such an endeavor, and you can and will be successful.
Aside from the fact that 8 months on the first fill of a new hot tub sets off red flags, the best indicator of water health (in addition to correct balance) is the sanitizer demand test. I have yet to encounter a dealer who understands this, because it is easier to over-sanitize and cover up the problem than it is to solve it. Especially bromine users who are using tablet floater or similar mechanisms for sanitizer delivery, your pipes can be crawling with bionasties and consuming sanitizer while the floater happily supplies it without alarming anyone. Once you learn to perform this test, you can then have great confidence in your water, and you won't be over-sanitizing. Basically the test is performed like this:
1. remove all floaters and automatic delivery mechanisms for bromine, and turn off the ozone generator
2. test the bromine level for some sensible number like 4-6 PPM. make note of the time of day. Don't use the hot tub for 24 hours
3. test the bromine level after 24 hours. did the level change by more than 25% over 24 hours? if so, something is eating your bromine
Are you using a floater with bromine tabs? do you have an ozone generator?
in short, here is what I would recommend:
1. you need to purge your spa now, and I mean really purge it. literally, this is as easy as buying a product known as "ahh-some" and following the label directions. I have personally tested this product and found it highly effective. it removed material from my spa that several other purge products left behind. Behind this recommendation I have experience recommending multiple purges to correct under-maintained spas. yours may be fine but you won't know until you do this step. seriously, get some ahh-some and set aside a day for purging fun.
2. start learning about water testing, and get a "more granular" look at your water chemistry. you can look at real numbers and wean yourself away from trusting the dealer. the dealer's tests can be used to your advantage, because you can test the same water sample you give them, and compare results on a weekly basis. A reputable dealer will have a good drop-test capability where they can tell you accurate numbers for bromine, Calcium hardness, Total Alkalinity, pH, and they can test for metals. BTW, the TDS test is nothing more than a conductivity test (the ability of the water to conduct electricity).
What answers to you get back from the dealer? what exactly do they test, and do you know how they test it?
When you can test daily yourself, and you control your sanitizer additions accurately, you can get real visibility into your water health. That doesn't mean you have to continue testing daily, because once you gain confidence you will be able to back off, but you will have the confidence that you know your water is clean and healthy and that you are not blind to a problem that is lurking in your pipes.
I hope this helps. ask away if you have further questions. seriously, get some ahh-some!
-
Hmmm. ::)
Some tag-team advertising going on here. I had subtly thought that Ahhsome (sp?) was a legitimate product util I witnessed these last few ad-blitzes. Sounds like a late night infomercial.
-
Many many more people DON'T use any kind of purge product and their tubs and water chemistry are never ever a problem.
-
I did use ahhsome before my first fill and i do use a floater where i add 2 tablets a week. I plan on draining it soon and use ahhsome again to see if there is any biofilm. I am still not comfortable doing my own tests because all i have is the test strips that i cannot read for the life of me.
-
There is no advertising going on here for my product. We didn't even mention the name. If consumers who have used our product want to chime in to help other people we have no control over that. Nor should we. Regarding the post referring to many people not purging their tubs with a cleaner made for the application on a regular basis or not at all, they ALL have biofilm build-up in their plumbing. Typical dealer response. all is fine. Just dump the water and refill.
Trust me. Their tubs are loaded.
-
Mods can we clean this advertising garbage up? no need for it here
-
Mods can we clean this advertising garbage up? no need for it here
Maybe he can, "purge" them? DOH! ;D
-
Sorry guys I don't even know who someguy is perhaps I should have checked the stickies . I'm only here to share what I have learned I just have done a lot of testing and experimenting in my own personal hot spring spa and learned a lot. I have no product affiliation but I do have enough personallly collected data and results to make some Mfgs unhappy. I'm well aware of biofilms so that post just caught my attention that's all.
-
Also..the only thing I will share here is what I have personally leaned. I bought my ahh-some from Amazon and have used it extensively. My spa was delivered with biofilms lurking. I did a lot of work, learned a lot, and spent a lot of money on city water lol
Nice to know that someguy is ahh-some I will be more careful now. Apologies again
-
I've owned 15-20 different tubs over about a 30 year span. And any type of spa flush product has only been used a few times. Bio film has never hurt me.
It IS NOT a requirement for clean healthy water.
-
May not be needed. But it is good. I have heard from so many customers about the stuff that gets purged. And we have sold several brands of purge products.
-
I have owned a Hot Springs Classic, and currently own a Saratoga Putnam. I am not a dealer, nor have, or do I work for any company related to the spa business. A partial or complete change of water should be done on an average of every 90 days, with monthly cleaning/ rinsing of filters monthly. The exact calculation for changing water for your spa and usage is: .33 X Spa Volume in US Gallons / Average Bathers Per Day. So, given this calc, my Saratoga Putman spa holds 340 gallons and I used an average of one bather per day, so I should change the water every 112 days. However, it's not a science, it's a recommendation under general conditions. But I personally would never go 8 months between water changes. You will get to the point where your chemicals will not work at all, or at a minimal level. Bottom line, Your chemicals do not work efficiently and you are running a risk of shortening the life of your components, especially the heater. Even if you are running short on time, take the time to do at least a 25 -30% partial water change, Anne equally as important, at the very least, pull and rinse your filters monthly.
-
I definitely think a system flush is good to use once per year or so for most people. I also feel that water treatment, balance, and maintenance do not need to be nearly as complicated as some of things listed above. While that is some good information, most people get by just fine keeping a sanitizer level near the appropriate range, shocking regularly, and keeping the PH close to the recommended ranges.
We aren't refining plutonium here. Our store doesn't even have a testing station and I've never wished we had one. We just use test strips for our wet displays. Balance the ph, stick a spa frog floater in there, shock it as needed and change the water out every few months. Works just fine.
-
I ran a hot spring Grande for several years by over sanitizing. My second grande was wet tested at the factory, rode in trucks for a few days and then 1 week in 100 feg temps. Doomed from day one
Would any of you particularly successful tubbers be up to the sanitizer demand test? Its seriously instructive
1..Remove anything that autofeeds your sanitizer and shut off ozone
2. Set a reasonable sanitizer level and record. for example 6ppm Bromine
3. 24 hours later , without using spa take another reading. lets say you get 4 ppm Bromine
in this example, if you have measured accurately, you have a 33% decay in sanitizer level, or Sanitizer demand. This is high, especially in a bromine spa with a good corona discharge ozone generator.
if you are unable to turn off ozone, leave it on. Ozone will eat chlorine and make bromine, so it's influence has to be factored in.
BTW I have personally measured my spa prior to the flush, and found sanitizer demand to be closer to 25-30%%, which is high for a bromine spa with ozone (but no issue for CL + ozone). after the flush my sanitizer demand dropped to about 15% at normally recommended levels, and the ozone generator would make enough bromine to maintain about .5ppm sustainable bromine over several days. thats when you know you have a clean spa
-
We just changed our water from last October too. I think there are other factors to determine when to swap. We have a big 450 gallon and really only the two of us use it 4 nights a week or so lets say. We did the bleach method and I was quite religious on taking care of it - nightly checks, bi-weekly filter cleanings. The water is definitely better now, but it really was not that different. I actually filled up two jugs, one with old water and one with new. It was REALLY hard to tell them apart. I also looked at the costs of the refill. We really did not see any spike in electricity usage for that day, and water here is not bad. We'll probably not go as far next time, but we did go 10 months. I agree with Jacuzzi Jim - it does feel and smell nicer, not that much though.
-
thank-you mrpenguin for sharing!
I'm a big fan now of purging/refilling the spa at least every 6 months. in arriving at this conclusion The first thing I did was to take photos of my spa water at 6 months old -- my water was very well maintained , clear, with no issues, etc, having used the "bleach method" (switch to bleach after you use about 1 cup of diclor per 500 gallons. that will raise CYA to an acceptable level, and going above that just introduces more problems).
I then purged my spa (to test various purge products) and wow was i surprised. So lets just say that I purge more often than I used to -- sometimes every fill especially when I go 6 months between fills (low bather load as well). I used to advocate that the purge is only a rescue or problem solving effort but now I have completely come around 180 degrees to where i think the purge should a preventative thing.
After purging and re-filing I took photos of my water again, and you can definitely tell that, while it is perfectly clear and clean it doesn't "sparkle" like new water does. its just tired -- from TDS buildup. we tend to forget that not all contaminants are oxidized, and that TDS is constantly rising over the the life of the water.
thanks again for your post.