Hot Tub Forum

Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: ltank on July 17, 2004, 07:28:39 pm

Title: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: ltank on July 17, 2004, 07:28:39 pm: These are the best prices I've gotten after hammering the dealers pretty hard. These are the only brand "premium" spas available locally. Each dealer has 1 spa available for a wet test, and none of them are the ones I'm looking at. My space is limited to 7ft in one direction because of the screened in porch it's going on. I need some opinions.

Caldera Tahitian(Utopia)
.premium smooth surface
.cover
.steps
.cover lift
.delivery
.starter chemicals
.gfci breaker
$7590 otd

Sundance Marin
.cover
.ozone
.steps
.cover lift
.delivery
.starter chemicals
$7590 otd

DimensionOne AuroraHP
.cover
.ozone w/added 24 hr. circulation pump
.cover lift
.delivery
.does not include steps
$6330 otd
Title: Prices?
Post by: ltank on July 18, 2004, 10:46:52 am: Can anyone tell me if these prices are good, bad, average?
TIA
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 18, 2004, 11:42:38 am: You wont go wrong with any of these choices. All are good tubs.

I am a D-1 dealer in Canada, I can tell you that the price for the Aurora HP you have been offered is good. That said if you are willing to spend the money on the Caldera or Sundance, why not step up to the Aurora II. It has the Ultra-Pure ozone system which is superior to the one the dealer would install on the HP. The Aurora II also has the neck-flex jet which is another excellent featrure.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: empolgation on July 18, 2004, 02:31:20 pm: Quote
...It has the Ultra-Pure ozone system which is superior....

HotTubMan - could you elaborate a bit on that system. My local dealer had, uh... "little understanding" of what it was or how it worked. How does it "make use of two contact chambers and two stages of ozone gas injection"? thanks!
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 18, 2004, 04:46:43 pm: Most ozone systems like the CD discharge system in the Aurora HP ( and most any other ozone system) inject ozone into the tub so fast that Underwriters Laboratories regulates that those systems cannot operate while the jets are on high speed. This is to protect you from the ozone gas that will become airborn. These systems will only work with jets on low speed, usually while you are not in the tub. Owners of these tubs tend to replace their hot tub covers more often.

Although the cover needs to be replaced more often, these ozone systems are good in that they destroy oils and bacteria in the water more effectively than chlorine or bromine on their own. The other benefit being lower PPM levels of ozone resulting in you smelling less after using the tub

The Ultra-Pure System traps the ozonated water in the plumbing for over 30 seconds (ozone will live for 22 seconds in the water, 25 minutes in the air). The result is that this system is UL approved to be operating while the jets are on high-speed, therefore the ozone purification is happening while you are in the tub, not after. What is being discharged into the tub is pure drinking quality water and pure oxygen. The Aurora II also has a second 75 sq ft filter. The benefit there being fewr trips to the tub to rinse off your filters as you have twice as much.

Hope this helps

:-*
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: IonHeaven on July 18, 2004, 05:25:12 pm: Itank:

I too am deciding between spas and the Aurora II is one of my top 2 choices. My price in Upstate NY would be $5800 with cover, lifter and some start up chemicals. (tax not included).

Thanks for the info HotTubMan:

I did'nt know all that about the ozonator and either did my dealer. He's new with D1 and selling out of the Beachcomber line. The Beachcomber 720x is my other choice at the same price. It doesn't seem to have as much for the money though. No 24/7 pump, no ozone, 3.5/1.5 pump, 4.0kw heater...

Do you know what KW heater is on the Aurora II? It's interesting your in Canada selling DI, I'm in the US looking at Canadian made Beachcomber! Any thoughts you may have on the tubs I'm comparing would be most helpful!

Itank:

I wet tested both the Sundance Marin and the D1 Aurora II. It's and individual thing that you can only decide with a wet test, but I preferred the massage of the DI. I think it's the best therapy I've experienced from hot tub jets. Therapy for my shoulders/neck is my main concern and the flexible neck jet is amazing, as is those swirling back jets!

My family however doesn't like the 'white tub' and the barrier between the lounge. Sundance looked more attractive to my family, as does the Beachcomber that I'm deciding between, but for therapy I was really impressed with the DI. In order for me to order the same D1 in a different color shell it would cost me over $1,000 more. The dealer wants to move what he has on the floor, so I'm still deciding what to do.

Good luck and please let me know how you proceed with your decision making! Any advice would be helpful.

IonHeaven
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: empolgation on July 18, 2004, 10:31:40 pm: thanks much HotTubMan!

i am more curious about the specifics of the D1 system as in: why 2 contact chambers? is it 2 separate chambers for a single ozonator?

What are the "2 stages of ozone gas injection"?

Interesting note about cover replacing, I haven't heard that before. is the ozonation that is occuring while you're in the tub via the circ pump or the jet pump(s)?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 20, 2004, 03:44:54 pm: Ionheaven;

The D-1 Aurora II has a 5.5KW heater, however it will operate at different KW consumption based on the breaker size.

I would recommend the D-1 over the Beachcomber, as you said alot more bang for the buck.

Empolgation;

There is one ozonator, the plumbing and chambers are there to suspend the ozone for over 30 seconds so that no live ozone is injected into the tub. All the UltraPure system discharges into the tub is pure oxegen and pruified water. (O3 becomes O2 as the third unstable oxygen molecules find eachother and make more O2). This is exactly why this system is UL approved to be operating while the jets are on on while you are in the tub. UL tells other manufacturers to have ozone by-passed while you are in the tub so that you cannot turn around and sue them for subjecting you to a carcenogenic gas.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: ZzTop on July 20, 2004, 05:25:05 pm: Quote
Ionheaven;

There is one ozonator, the plumbing and chambers are there to suspend the ozone for over 30 seconds so that no live ozone is injected into the tub. All the UltraPure system discharges into the tub is pure oxegen and pruified water. (O3 becomes O2 as the third unstable oxygen molecules find eachother and make more O2). This is exactly why this system is UL approved to be operating while the jets are on on while you are in the tub. UL tells other manufacturers to have ozone by-passed while you are in the tub so that you cannot turn around and sue them for subjecting you to a carcenogenic gas.

HotTubMan

My understanding is that all ozone equipped spas have a contact tube or chamber measuring from 6 to 25 feet long to be sure that the ozone is mixed with the water and converted to 02 before entering the tub.

With 24/7 cir pumps the ozinator does not shut off and operates continuously.

What evidence do you have of law suits against manufactures who's Spas have continuously operating ozinators?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 20, 2004, 05:51:13 pm: ZZtop

I never suggested that any one has been sued. That is what Underwriters Laboratories does. They assess risk to the manufacturer and advise the manufacturers on what they can and cannot do. UL says D-1's ozone can work while the jets are on highspeed. I know for a fact, as a former Beqachcomber dealer that the Ozone on that tub is by-passed when the jets are on high speed.

When you remove your cover, do you smell ozone? If you do, its because it has not been dissolved before injection in the tub. If you dont, then your ozone system likely needs service.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: empolgation on July 20, 2004, 06:38:47 pm: Quote
There is one ozonator, the plumbing and chambers are there to suspend the ozone for over 30 seconds so that no live ozone is injected into the tub...
Is there really "2 stages of ozonation" with "2 contact chambers"? Sounds like it's your regular ole ozonation setup with a long chamber - or maybe something connecting 2 tubes to call it "2 stages" and "2 chambers".

I have a good understand of how ozone sanitation theory works in a tub I am just trying to determine if it's D1 marketing hype or truly a revolutionary ozonation design?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 20, 2004, 09:04:01 pm: Ok, the plumbing travels around the tub in the plumbing, what is different with the D-1 system is the ozonated water is forced down (from the top end of the tub) to chamber (about 1.5' long) and the discharge is actually at the top of the chamber. The ozone bubbles naturally want to float up, but the pressure in the chamber is forcing these bubbles downward. This is how the 30 seconds suspended in the plumbing is acheived.

Please dont take my word for it. Ask your local dealer to remove the front left panel if they do not have the Ultra-Pure display in their store. Better yet contact Underwriters Laboratories. I have sold 4 makes of tubs in my years as a hot tub dealer. This is the only ozone system (out of a dozen or more I have seen or used)that does not overwhelm you with ozone when you remove the cover. There are some systems that are better than others. Sundance, Marquis, Arctic's Peak Ozone to name a few that discharge less ozone into the tub. That said D-1's Ultra-Pure is the only system, to my knowledge, that is Ul approved operate while the jets are on high speed.

Wow, I can't beleive all the feathers I have ruffled!

To those who have objected: I am a dealer, I am not with Dimension 1 marketing. I will not benefit from any sales resulting from these potential buyers. I spent a lot of time and energy researching this brand. Dimension 1 has more patents than any other manufacturer, they develope the technology and others follow.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: poolboy34 on July 20, 2004, 11:34:43 pm: well said hot tub man ;D
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: ZzTop on July 21, 2004, 03:04:33 am: Quote
ZZtop
I know for a fact, as a former Beachcomber dealer that the Ozone on that tub is by-passed when the jets are on high speed.

When you remove your cover, do you smell ozone? If you do, its because it has not been dissolved before injection in the tub. If you dont, then your ozone system likely needs service.

HotTubMan

Most late model Beachcombers use a 24/7 cir pump and the ozone is always on! Lets get our facts straight.

You are not ruffling my feathers, (At my age I don't have many feathers left), I just want to further understand what you are saying.

BTW I put D1 on my top three list. It is a very good product.

Marquis is now using Balboa's 03 system with a plasma UV lamp, which claims 100,000 cycles which looks like a step in the right direction. They use a 25' contact tube.

You may want to take a look at a previous thread on ozination:

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1088604738

Regards,

Your fine feathered friend,

Zz
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 21, 2004, 12:22:59 pm: ZZ;

Beleive what you want. Last year I had a Beachcomber in my store with an ozonator. We disabled the ozonator because whenever you would remove the cover, the smell of ozone was strong and quite unpleasant. This was not an aroma that I wanted potential customers to experience. Another reason I disabled that ozonator was the fact that if I could smell that much ozone when I opened the cover, I know it would be causing signifigant oxidization to the cover on our running floor model.

The ozonator was inspected and was not malfunctioning. This is the way most ozonators work.

I have no further commentary on the issue ;D
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: ZzTop on July 22, 2004, 12:58:37 am: Quote
ZZ;

Beleive what you want. Last year I had a Beachcomber in my store with an ozonator. We disabled the ozonator because whenever you would remove the cover, the smell of ozone was strong and quite unpleasant. This was not an aroma that I wanted potential customers to experience. Another reason I disabled that ozonator was the fact that if I could smell that much ozone when I opened the cover, I know it would be causing signifigant oxidization to the cover on our running floor model.

The ozonator was inspected and was not malfunctioning. This is the way most ozonators work.

I have no further commentary on the issue ;D

So I am asking you again did the tub you had in the store have a circ pump?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 22, 2004, 01:27:06 pm: Yes it did have one, most Beachcomber dealers floor a 750 loaded, that does include the hush pump. And yes it stank like ozone. How long have you had yours?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: ZzTop on July 22, 2004, 01:37:35 pm: 8 months, out door location.
I have looked into the length of contact tubes on various makes of tubs.

They vary considerably. The manufactures of the the Ozone units give very little information as to the most effective setup.

I use a spa blanket which does a pretty good job of protecting the cover from chemical and ozone exposure.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: IonHeaven on July 22, 2004, 10:19:36 pm: Interesting info about the ozonator. I wet tested a Marqui Reward today and a D1 Aurora II last week.

The Marquis dealer claimed the Marquis is the ONLY spa IN THE WORLD, that's installed by the manufacturer and the ONLY spa IN THE WORLD that is UL listed.

He also informed me that Maquis did away with circ pumps cause they are the main thing that causes problems in all tubs that have them and further noted that HS is soon to stop using them.

I really don't know what to make of the dealers comments, given the ozone info on this thread.

BTW, the electrician was here today! Thanks again for your information,

IonHeaven

P.S. In the chance that someone is interested: I do like the Reward very much, but I cant reach any foot jets (5'2"). I also liked the D1 as well, exept for the high barrier on the lounge. Haven't given up all hope on the beachcomber 720x, but maybe without the ozone??
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: empolgation on July 23, 2004, 02:23:23 am: Ion,
You should generally be leery of claims containing words such as ONLY and NEVER - not very reassuring words to hear from a dealer.

As for Marquis, it is indeed UL approved and their ozone system is factory installed and considered by many as one of the best, warranted for 3 years. Their ozonator is Balboa's solid state system (estimated to last 7 or more years before bulb replacement) with a 25 foot contact chamber.

There are plenty of other threads on this forum that go into more depth regarding ozonators and circ pumps.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: Lori on July 23, 2004, 06:49:50 am: IonHeaven,

Another shorty here (5'0") and I say, go with the wet test. Don't worry about what the dealer said about ozone. If the Marquis didn't work (because you couldn't reach the foot jets) then try something else.

I know you have been patient so far, but with a purchase this big, take your time! You will get to spatopia. I also felt this frustration, same time, last year.

I guess what I am trying to say is, go with the tub that felt the best during the wet test. Go with the tub that YOU will enjoy the most, therapy wise. Then worry about ozone.

Just my opinion. FWIW!!!
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: zzaphod42 on July 23, 2004, 10:31:17 am: Quote
Yes it did have one, most Beachcomber dealers floor a 750 loaded, that does include the hush pump. And yes it stank like ozone. How long have you had yours?

Wow, I've never noticed any ozone smell emanating from the 750 in my showroom - I'll have to pay closer attention tomorrow when I remove the cover.
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: newtubgirl on July 23, 2004, 04:09:19 pm: What chemicals do you use with the D1?
Title: Re: Caldera, Sundance, D1? need advice
Post by: HotTubMan on July 23, 2004, 04:43:53 pm: NewTubGirl;

Use the same chemicals as you would in any other tub, unless you are using the vision cartridge. In that case, you are limitted to using di-chlor and balancers only.