Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gibson00 on November 21, 2015, 04:01:50 pm
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Hi all, 2+ weeks into spa ownership, Arctic Summit. My water has been pretty good, but have been struggling a little bit with the pH and Alkalinity...
I keep adding the baking soda product, but my levels would still stick around 40-50ppm for alkalinity. And Id add adjust down for the pH, but they seem to want to stick around 8.
So finally I did manage to get the alkalinity up to about 100ppm, but the pH is still sticking around 8. Should I keep adding ph down to try to lower it?
The guy at the Arctic store seemed to think my alkalinity was actually a bit high, and that I had to lower it before i could lower pH??
OK, the other thing, is that I bought another brand of test strips to try, more than anything to double check the readings I was getting. These new strips happen to have a check for hardness too. Well, it turns out my total hardness was bottomed out, literally near zero. So the place I bought that from said I should definitely adjust for that, and sold me a calcium product. I went ahead and added enough to bring the hardness up to about 100ppm.
But now, aside from still trying to get the pH down, I now find my water has a different feel to it, almost like a chalky/base feel to it on the hands, whereas before it was silky smooth. It still looks clean, no foam, no ring around the border. So I called the Arctic dealer and asked them, and they said they never recommend bothering checking the water hardness for their spas.....ugh...OK....no idea why, but now I wonder did I make a mistake adding the calcium..
Oh, and if it matters, my chlorine is consistently on the slightly high side, probably about 6-7ppm.
What should I be doing? I feel like I am brewing a chemical soup here! Help!
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being a newbie (I assume) to water care can be daunting and the first moth of ownership will have you adding stuff into your water because you don't know. Chas' Law - Change the water after the first month of ownership!
But to your "problem" - you don't need to worry about calcium, I believe if you have a gunite (concrete) pool the water will leach it out of the walls if it's not at the right level. Other than that - no need to worry; the opposite is not true - too much calcium will possibly deposit stuff on your spa shell. With that said when I was new to spa ownership - I did worry about calcium because the Taylor book said so! I wanted my water balanced.
Unfortunately you need to know where you started from before you know how to proceed - easy enough by taking a sample of your tap water if that's where you got your spa water from. My water tends to be low alkalinity and pH so for me I can add baking soda and both rise and pretty much lock in. I can also add borax to raise just my pH. If out of the tap you have high pH then you need to add acid to drop it but if it's locked in because of the alkalinity then you need to add enough acid to drop that first. Non chlorine shock has a pH of about 4 as well and if you use that pH will eventually go down.
I don't see the need to lower anything - yes it's high but it will come down with the addition of chlorine (dichlor) and especially if your using trichlor which is acidic (if I remember correctly you are using a puck). As far as your chlorine (again if you are using a puck) is there a way to adjust the flow of water going into the feeder?
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Listen to Vinny.
Throw the test strips in the garbage.
Go to Amazon and order the Taylor K2006 test kit (if you're using chlorine). Then go to Youtube and watch the K2006 videos to learn how easy it is to accurately test your water.
Relax about water chemistry and enjoy your tub.
:)
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Agreed that low calcium is not an issue, unless you have foaming. My calcium is not low, but if I remember correctly low calcium can cause foaming???
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Thanks all.
So, now that I have added calcium, should I add one of the products to remove minerals, or just leave it?
I hate to drain all the water out, seems like a waste. I'm in Nova Scotia and winter hasn't really hit yet, but shouldn't be too long. I was hoping I'd make it through to beginning of March before having to do a drain..
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No, leave it. Or you can do a partial water change (1/2 the tub) if you really don't like the feel of the water.
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If you really want to learn something about water chemistry and how to balance your water, this is one of the best write ups I've found (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634). And remember a couple of things. Despite what the write up says, Vinny is correct in that CH is not that big a deal. Too much CH can lead to deposits being left and too little can lead to foaming, but other than that it is not a huge deal. And secondly, I want to second what av8r says - get yourself a Taylor test kit!
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Being in Canada, like myself, you are going to have to go to ebay and buy your K2006 test kit (for chlorine). The exchange is brutal, but it is worth it. Test strips that are good, you won't really find up here either. About all I use test strips for is for chlorine levels. I just changed my water on Tuesday so you'll make it to March like myself without issue.
Do you have a floater with mini chlorine tabs in it by chance?
Print out that post by nitro for water balancing. You'll be referring to it a lot if you are like myself for the first 6 months or so of ownership.
Get your TA sorted out first. Then worry about PH. Get some Borax from Walmart. 20 Team Mule Borax, it is in the cleaning section with the dishwasher detergent. You'll need this to push up PH if it is too low when you get your TA sorted.
PH can be really stubborn to get down. You just have to keep adding and testing to get it right. Once the PH breaks, it will come down so you don't want to overshoot it too much.
The taylor kit is key here. I don't know what I would do without it. I know the majority use strips but they are so vague..
One other quick suggestion is that once you get your kit, test it and compare against your strips. I did this so I know that my PH/FC/TA is either low or high by X amount on the strips if I can't use the test kit (-30C comes to mind!) and I made a note of it. I know my strips are low by 1ppm on my FC strips. The reagents are expensive to get with the kit, so order the 2 oz replacements when you order them. This way when you run out or have to wait from ebay for the reagents, you'll be ok with the strips until your refills get to you.
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Being in Canada, like myself, you are going to have to go to ebay and buy your K2006 test kit (for chlorine). The exchange is brutal, but it is worth it. Test strips that are good, you won't really find up here either. About all I use test strips for is for chlorine levels. I just changed my water on Tuesday so you'll make it to March like myself without issue.
Do you have a floater with mini chlorine tabs in it by chance?
Print out that post by nitro for water balancing. You'll be referring to it a lot if you are like myself for the first 6 months or so of ownership.
Get your TA sorted out first. Then worry about PH. Get some Borax from Walmart. 20 Team Mule Borax, it is in the cleaning section with the dishwasher detergent. You'll need this to push up PH if it is too low when you get your TA sorted.
PH can be really stubborn to get down. You just have to keep adding and testing to get it right. Once the PH breaks, it will come down so you don't want to overshoot it too much.
The taylor kit is key here. I don't know what I would do without it. I know the majority use strips but they are so vague..
One other quick suggestion is that once you get your kit, test it and compare against your strips. I did this so I know that my PH/FC/TA is either low or high by X amount on the strips if I can't use the test kit (-30C comes to mind!) and I made a note of it. I know my strips are low by 1ppm on my FC strips. The reagents are expensive to get with the kit, so order the 2 oz replacements when you order them. This way when you run out or have to wait from ebay for the reagents, you'll be ok with the strips until your refills get to you.
sksmoker,
Just curious where in Canada you are located? We are in the Vancouver area.
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Thanks again all.
My chlorine - I am using the small Spa Tabs. About the same size around as a Canadian Loonie coin, and about half inch thick. It goes into a small plastic holder just big enough to hold the tab, and that goes underneath one of the filter covers. This is where the arctic folks told me to put it. Seems to have worked out OK so far as my chlorine levels have been pretty stable.
Re the Taylor kits, yes, very hard to get to Canada! Only found one ebay seller that ships to Canada. They want about $70 US for the kit, and $60 US for postage!!!! I am heading to Florida in March, so may pick one up while I'm down there...
OK, so, the feel of the water was driving me kind of nuts, so I said screw it and drained about 80% of it today and refilled, starting over. I think I have the TA balanced and the pH looks OK, if anything maybe still a tiny bit high. Will not be adding calcium! Waiting for the temp to come up and will retest the water..
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OK, just had a look on ebay, and found another seller shipping to Canada. Ordered the Taylor k2006 kit, came to about $90 US shipped. Might owe some import tax at the post office if it gets inspected, kind of hit or miss...
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Since there no way to control the flow of water to the chlorine puck - your chlorine level will stay the same until it either dissolves totally and the chlorine is used or you pull it out. You may want to contact the dealer and ask them about the high chlorine amount - they may have a suggestion. 6 PPM is high although I have soaked in higher but not for extended periods of time. Don't be surprised if the dealer doesn't have a clue or says it's OK ... I once went to a pool dealer for high stabilizer (over 100) and the dealer said that that's what they shoot for! NO!!
I tried looking at an Arctic Spa manual and they mention a floating feeder where you can adjust the amount coming out - unfortunately this is not what you have.
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Vinny - The Aquafinesse kit they sold me actually came with another free bottle of the spa tabs and a floater device, looks like a little blue and white UFO. I just didn't bother to use it, stuck with the tiny plastic container placed in the filter cover that they recommended on delivery, since, again, it seems to be keeping the levels pretty stable. Is it bad/unhealthy to have the chlorine level on the slightly high side of the 'good' range on the test strips?
Thx
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I don't think there is a health risk except if you're sensitive to chlorine. Other issues may be with bathing suits if you use them as they may fade or deteriorate quickly.
Here is a World Health Organization report: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/bathing/srwe2chap4.pdf
They mention something about 5 mg/l for hot tubs and drinking water which is 5 PPM, slightly less than what your measuring.
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sksmoker,
Just curious where in Canada you are located? We are in the Vancouver area.
I'm in South Sask. About 24hrs drive from Vancouver :)
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The World Health Organization (WHO) Free Available Chlorine (FAC) limit for swimming pools as described in this link (http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/43336/1/9241546808_eng.pdf?ua=1) is as follows:
It is recommended that acceptable levels of free chlorine continue to be set at the local level, but in public and semi-public pools these should not exceed 3 mg/l and in public and semi-public hot tubs should not exceed 5 mg/l. It is recommended that total bromine does not exceed 4 mg/l in public and semi-public pools and 5 mg/l in hot tubs.
The EPA limit is based on drinking water standards and is 4 ppm as shown in this link (http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/).
This discussion (http://www.ncceh.ca/documents/practice-scenario/pool-chlorination-and-closure-guidelines) from NCCEH in Canada describes maximum Free Available Chlorine (FAC) of 5 ppm or 10 ppm depending on the province/territory or other source.
The states of Florida and Wisconsin allow FC up to 10 ppm in their state codes. Florida's code specifically states the following:
2. Disinfection – Free chlorine residual shall be 1 milligram per liter (mg/L) to 10 mg/L, inclusive, in conventional swimming pools and 2 mg/L to 10 mg/L, inclusive, in all other type pools such as spa-type pools and interactive water fountains; bromine residual shall be 1.5 mg/L to 10 mg/L, inclusive, in conventional swimming pools and 3 mg/L to 10 mg/L, inclusive, in all other type pools. Except that, the following maximum disinfectant levels shall apply to indoor conventional swimming pools: 5 mg/L free chlorine or 6 mg/L bromine.
The reason for the lower limit indoors is that typically CYA is not used indoors (even though it probably should at low levels such as 20 ppm).
The reason for such variations is that none of these agencies have an understanding of the chlorine/CYA relationship. CYA significantly moderates chlorine's strength. In pool water at cooler temperatures, 10 ppm FC with 50 ppm CYA at pH 7.5 has the same active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level as 0.09 ppm FC with no CYA while at hot spa temperatures of 104ºF, it's equivalent to 0.51 ppm FC with no CYA.
This is the main reason why commercial/public pools and spas with > 1 ppm FC and no CYA (typically indoors or spas, but sometimes outdoor pools) are much harsher on swimsuits, skin, and hair. So if you have CYA in the water, say from using Dichlor, then you shouldn't worry about higher FC levels being unsafe. The FC would only come into play if you were to drink the water in large quantities. Drinking water standards limit FAC to 4 ppm assuming drinking 2 liters of water every day for a lifetime.
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Vinny - The Aquafinesse kit they sold me actually came with another free bottle of the spa tabs and a floater device, looks like a little blue and white UFO. I just didn't bother to use it, stuck with the tiny plastic container placed in the filter cover that they recommended on delivery, since, again, it seems to be keeping the levels pretty stable. Is it bad/unhealthy to have the chlorine level on the slightly high side of the 'good' range on the test strips?
Thx
I would use the floater. You can control the water flow over the puck much better that having it by the filter imho. I have the floater with the mini tabs, and I have mine open about 1/8". Plus you can stack 8 or so pucks in there so you don't have to worry about running out for awhile. The pucks are really acidic so your PH will drop with the constant addition of acid from them. You want to find the balancing act of having it open enough to keep chlorine in the tub but not so much that is makes your water go crazy. With my 440 gal tub at 1/8" open on the floater I keep about .5ppm in the tub with no extra addition of chlorine. i could probably put it a bit lower, but I just haven't tried it. My wife and I use the tub about 5 times a week for 1-1.5hrs at a time @ 100(summer)-102F (winter). That should give you some idea of chlorine demand. I go through a stack of mini tabs in my floater about every 2-2.5 weeks which I think is acceptable. I do not have an ozonator in my tub either.
I balance my water twice a week because I am crazy (mainly) to keep my water in line. Mostly I use borax to push up the PH as it drops the most. Sometimes I adjust TA and PH with baking soda as well. I use the BBB method but with the floater of mini pucks ph will drop so a bit more attention is needed.
just my 2C
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Thanks, might give the floater a try. The mini holder I'm using has been consistant, but maybe its keeping too high a level. Even when starting with new water yesterday, my pH was still high, and my TA low. So I added some baking soda to up the TA, then some adjust down to try to lower the pH. Things look OK this morning. :) Just got an email saying my taylor kit is in the mail. :)
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sksmoker,
Just curious where in Canada you are located? We are in the Vancouver area.
I'm in South Sask. About 24hrs drive from Vancouver :)
My wife is from Moosejaw.