Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Gibson00 on November 09, 2015, 08:50:43 am
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Hi all, we took delivery of our Arctic Spa Summit a few days ago. Liking it so far, still trying to get over the sticker shock of the overall cost, as we had to build a deck as well, etc. Ugghh...
OK, so I did my research, but I of course didn't think to look much into chemicals. My bad. I researched a lot into electrical costs (I still don't believe the $30 per month estimate....time will tell...), but I have to admit, the cost of the chemicals has taken me a bit by surprise. Again, my fault.....but wanted to ask a few questions:
1. The Arctic Spa guys have told me I need to use the Aquafinesse product. About 350mls once per week (500 gallon tub). I just bought a kit box from them that has 4L. It also included a small bottle of chlorine pucks, not sure how long they'll last, didn't look closely at the bottle and not sure how much those cost alone. I am to add 1 every three days.
OK, so the kit was about $180 w/tax Canadian. If my math is correct, this will last me about 3 months, so $60 per month, plus the cost of extra chlorine pucks, test strips, etc (hopefully those few extras won't amount to much).
I really didn't think I'd be spending 60/month on chemicals.
SO, if I am using chlorine pucks, monitoring PH, alkalinity, etc. Is it really necessary for me to be using $60 worth of the Aquafinesse product per month?? What if I spread it out a bit, like 150ml per week (or 350ml every two weeks for a harder 'hit'?)?
2. I find the chlorine is measuring a bit low even with the puck in there. I also have a bottle of the Arctic Spa 'Boost' and a bottle of 'Refresh'.
If I understand correctly, if the chlorine is in fact looking low, I should add a small amount of Boost, remeasure after several minutes, and add as necessary until it gets to the proper level? For a 500 gallon tub, do I need more than one puck in there at a time (was told to put a new one in every three days).?
And, when should I use the Refresh?
Also with regards to the chlorine - when I google aquafinesse, it seems like some folks are using it -instead- of chlorine?? Now I'm really confused...
They did give me a quick primer on this stuff when they delivered it, but of course I forgot some of it, and I also wanted to check with you guys/gals, especially on the Aquafinesse, as I didn't want to rely on opinions of the place trying to sell it to me...
Thanks!!!!
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If you are using pucks then it sounds like bromine not chlorine. Unless Arctic is different then other manufacturers the only type of chlorine in pucks is trichlor and it's frowned upon to use them in a tub due to their acidness.
$60 is very high chemical wise, I don't know what the aqua finesse is but unless it extremely important to use (and I doubt it is) you can get away with generic chemicals.
If it is bromine then it is slightly more expensive to use then chlorine but not a lot more based on U.S. prices. I'm not up on bromine that we'll but you need to add a starter dose of bromine (sodium bromide ?) Then use the pucks. If there is a way to control the amount of bromine going into the tub you may need to open up the feeder to let a little more water flow through. It also may be possible that you do need more than 1 puck, sometimes it comes down to trial and error until you get it down pat.
Maybe someone with more bromine experience will chime in
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It's chlorine, they are tablets. Don't have the bottle in front of me, will check when I get home.
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$60 per month for chemicals sounds outrageous to me. I can't comment on sanitizer, as I use an alternative product. But other than sanitizer, the only chemicals I use are dry acid (PH down), boric acid and sometimes borax. I use the dry acid and boric acid once every three months or so when I do a water change, and since my PH tends to sometimes drift down, I use a little borax once every couple of weeks to bring the PH back up. My chemical costs, including my alternative sanitizer, are no where even close to $60 per month.
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Thanks, yeah, from doing more internet searching, it sounds like the Aquafinesse, while a nice product, is optional and very expensive.
But, even if I decide not to use, or not use as much, I'm still kind of unclear on the chlorine procedure... The dealer basically said to use one chlorine tablet, placed in a little round holder and put on top of the filter (then put the filter cover back on top), every 3 days. But my chlorine is measuring very low according to the test strips.
So I don't know if I am supposed to supplement with the boost and product, how much, do I add a certain amount after every use of the tub...
I'll call the dealer again, but would appreciate any insight on the chlorine management from you guys who have a lot of experience with it.
Thx
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OK, so just spoke to the dealer..
I guess the 'schedule' of chemicals they gave me, which is to say, 1 chlorine tablet every three days, is based on the fact that I am also using aquafinesse, and that because I am using aquafinesse, its OK that my chlorine is reading so low...
OK, so I'm not really comfortable with that. Partly because I don't want to continue using $60/month of that stuff, and also I'd like to have the tub properly chlorinated so my family and I don't get sick....
So I did ask, what if in the future I don't use aquafinesse, and they just said yeah, probably 3 or 4 chlorine tabs a week then...
So, I'm kind of at a loss at what to do now. I have about a 3 month supply of aquafinesse. I don't know if I should stretch it out, to use it up gradually and get some benefit? But also, I assume that I -should- have my chlorine in the normal range on the test strips? So to do that, do I try adding more than one puck of chlorine at a time and see if that maintains it for a few days? Then just throw the boost shock in, along with refresh, after any time I have a lot of people in or the water gets cloudy (this is what they said for those two products)?
Help!
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I have not bought a hot tub yet - still investigating :)
Just want to share my thoughts - Looks like the simplest and non-expensive way is :
If you prefer chlorine then do not read further :-) Jump to "Another option"
* Bromine floater ( just add bromine tablets on demand)
* 1 Nature2 cartridge every 3/4 month (silver+minerals will help to use less bromine and regulate PH) or frog 2 floater (more expensive but do the same)
* 1 shock every week.
regulate PH if required from time to time - usually rare
it should be about $10 a month for chemicals ...
Another option is to do not use Bromine tables - Just add a bit of Chlorine after each soak (still use Nature2)
I could be wrong but so far it is my findings ...
Feel free to correct me!!
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Just my opinion ...
Since you bought it, use it. Maybe go out and buy some dichlor, it's fairly inexpensive, to use after you soak to boost the chlorine a little to 3 ppm. Once you use the stuff up just use either chlorine or bromine. Bromine will be in puck form where chlorine will be in granuals. No sense letting the money you spent go to waste.
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Sounds a lot like AF is an enzyme based product like Spa Marvel. Claims of low chlorine use, awesome water, and expensive. My dealer sells the Spa Marvel stuff and wanted me to use it, but I couldn't stomach the cost of $50-$60 every couple months.
Dichlor in bulk is cheap ($4-$5 a pound shipped on Amazon)
The other things you really need can be purchased at most grocery stores (bleach, borax and baking soda)
It's pretty cheap to keep your water chemistry in the green if you read a bit on here.
Good luck.
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AquaFinesse is not an enzyme product, but a strong surfactant that inhibits biofilm formation. It is not a disinfectant nor an oxidizer so chlorine is needed. Bacteria generally prefer to reproduce on surfaces and AquaFinesse interferes with their adhering to surfaces. If you were to consistently maintain the chlorine level then such a product is not needed. Instead, you could initially use Ahh-Some to clear pipes of greases and biofilm and only on occasion use it just before a water change as needed.
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AquaFinesse is not an enzyme product, but a strong surfactant that inhibits biofilm formation. It is not a disinfectant nor an oxidizer so chlorine is needed. Bacteria generally prefer to reproduce on surfaces and AquaFinesse interferes with their adhering to surfaces.
Hi ChemGeek, I am curious what the difference is between Spa Marvel, AquaFinesse and Spa Solution (www.spasolution.com - "The Original Spa Solution") and if any of them are recommended over others (or at all). In our process of spa-shopping, we had all 3 products pitched to us by different dealers and received a free canister of Spa Solution with our start-up chemicals from Jacuzzi.
Thanks!
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Thanks all. I think I plan to use the aquafinesse that I already have, but probably stretch it out a bit longer by using a little less than recommended. But no way I will continue to use it long term at that cost. Will just stick with the chlorine tablets and see how it goes.
I too would be interested about how spa magic compares with aquafinesse as I believe it is less expensive...
Cheers
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AquaFinesse is not an enzyme product, but a strong surfactant that inhibits biofilm formation. It is not a disinfectant nor an oxidizer so chlorine is needed. Bacteria generally prefer to reproduce on surfaces and AquaFinesse interferes with their adhering to surfaces. If you were to consistently maintain the chlorine level then such a product is not needed. Instead, you could initially use Ahh-Some to clear pipes of greases and biofilm and only on occasion use it just before a water change as needed.
Interesting that it looks like SA is sodium carbonate
http://baystatepools.com/media/wysiwyg/msds/AquaFinesse/HotTubLiquidSolution_02_2011.pdf
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OK, so, when I use my test strips, if all the levels (PH, Alkalinity and Chlorine) are in the required range, is there any reason to add anything to the water if it looks OK (not cloudy, etc)? I'm still confused about when I should 'shock' it with extra chlorine...
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I too would be interested about how spa magic compares with aquafinesse as I believe it is less expensive...
It looks to be $50 every 3 months. I used the free canister that came with our start-up kit and I'm pretty happy with it. Our water is very clear, smells good and color is good.
We use 1 tbsp of chlorine granules after each use (2 people, 20 minutes or so) and run the jets for 20 minutes. We have been making minor adjustments with PH Down and Alka Up weekly based on the results of water testing done at the dealer. I also use the test strips but I don't find them very accurate. Then once per week we put in 2 extra tbsp of chlorine granules and 1 tbsp of "non-chlorine shock" and 3 caps of Stain & Scale and run the jets for 20 minutes. At this point if I have time, I grab a terry cloth and use the super-chlorinated water to scrub the waterline and the shell.
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Both Spa Marvel and Spa Solution are enzymes. They help to oxidize some chemicals in bather waste using oxygen in the water. They will not prevent biofilms nor are they disinfectants so will not kill bacteria. As for the MSDS for Aquafinesse, it will not list all chemicals since the surfactants are not considered hazardous to health (i.e. not related to material safety).
Why are you all so focussed on these extra products that are not necessary for proper disinfection nor oxidation in a spa? Chlorine alone is all that is needed, but needs to be maintained consistently and enough needs to be added after each soak to be enough to oxidize bather waste. If one has an ozonator, then ozone can oxidize some of the bather waste so that you need less chlorine after each soak (though will need more in between soaks because ozone reacts with chlorine). If you want a (mostly) non-chlorine system, you can use Nature2 with its silver ions and use non-chlorine shock (MPS) as the oxidizer and is also a disinfectant in the presence of silver ions at hot water temperatures (and is EPA approved as a disinfectant because of this). You can use chlorine on occasion to keep the water clear.
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I was focused on it because my dealer told me I was supposed to use it! I'm very relieved to find out I don't really need to! :)
So, right now I am using spa tabs, which my understanding are chlorine tablets. I looked closely at the spa tab bottle, and it doesn't seem to say which type of chlorine it is.
This is the product:
http://www.hottubchemicals.ca/spaboss-spa-tabs/
I was told to add one every three days. After one week, the chlorine levels seem to be pretty stable, within the range on the test strips. But is this not a good chlorine product to use? Should I be using the granular dichlor crystals instead? If yes, how much and how often would I add them to a 500 gallon tub, used 20 minutes a day by 3 people??
Thx!
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On the back of the bottle it should say what type of active ingredients it has. It does sound from the description on that website that it is trichlor due to the fact it mentions it will lower pH and alkalinity, dichlor is usually advertised as pH neutral.
The question of how much granular chlorine to use depends on you. For an empty 500 gallon tub you may need 2 1/2 tablespoons to get to 3 ppm chlorine. With 3 showered people maybe 3 1/2 to 4; after sweating all day it may be 5. I always add a little extra chlorine whenever I have people in my tub vs soaking alone. For just me with a 400 gallon tub I add 2 tablespoons of granular chlorine for 3 ppm. When my wife soaks with me I add another because she uses lotions and all, if more people I add another ... This will bring me up to 6 or more ppm to use as a disinfectant and oxidizer. I also super chlorinate every so often to about 10 ppm for good measure.
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Blow up the pic and it says trichlor.
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Trichlor tabs aren't usually used in hot tubs because in hot water the Trichlor tends to dissolve too quickly so at a minimum you need a special feeder that can be dialed down considerably (there are some combo bromine/chlorine feeders that can do this). Trichlor is also quite acidic so will tend to lower the pH and also consumes (lowers) TA so you have to add baking soda to raise the TA or use a pH Up product to raise both pH and TA. If you use the Trichlor, then I'd suggest dialing it down to only provide a background dose of chlorine between soaks so maintaining say 2 ppm FC. That will lessen the effects from the Trichlor. Note that if the feeder parks itself in one area of the spa, the acidity of the Trichlor may damage the acrylic or metal (if any from jets) nearby. This is especially true if the spa does not have 24 hour circulation.
After each soak, you'll need to add additional disinfectant and could use the Dichlor-then-bleach method for that though probably stop using Dichlor when you get to 20 ppm since Trichlor will keep increasing the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level over time. Since the Trichlor is acidic, the use of bleach may work out well in terms of pH. You should then maintain the TA at a level where the pH tends to be somewhat stable -- if the pH tends to rise then the TA can be lower (though not below 50 ppm) and if the pH tends to drop then the TA can be higher (but probably not above 100 ppm). If the pH tends to rise or if you are targeting a low TA, then I'd use 50 ppm Borates (from boric acid).
As for how much additional chlorine to add after each soak, it depends on your bather load and whether you have an ozonator. A rough rule-of-thumb with no ozonator is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) spa requires roughly 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 3-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach (or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock, 43% MPS, but that's normally when using Nature2). With an ozonator, you may only need half these amounts or less. The real rule is to add whatever is necessary to still have a residual of chlorine 24 hours later.
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Blow up the pic and it says trichlor.
I tried this morning on my tablet and the photo was acting funky. As much as I blew it up it kept wanting to stay "centered" on the website and it wouldn't let me scroll ... it happens every now and then.
Great minds think alike! I'm sorry for you! :)
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Thanks for the info. Right now They just have me putting the spa tablet in a little screw top holder that is just big enough to fit the tablet, and they have me put it in under one of the filters (Arctic Spa). The tablet is mostly dissolved after about 3 days. Just using the test strips, the chlorine does seem to be staying pretty stable. I did have to add a small amount of baking soda the other day, thats about it.
Oh, no ozonator on mine, and it is 500 gallons (Arctic Summit).