Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: Jostudly on November 03, 2015, 09:48:34 am
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I am having difficulty keeping my bromine levels between 3-5ppm and always adding bromine pucks every couple days. I am considering getting a floater to help with this. A co worker of mine said they switched to chlorine and it is easier to maintain. Is this true?
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Easier for him, yes. Easier for you? Only you can say.
I went with Chlorine because it's less expensive, there is the BBB method and I don't like the smell Bromine leaves on anything that touches the water. Seems pretty easy to me so far.
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Here is opinion piece regarding the bromine vs chlorine question. I found it easy to understand. But if course, you will decide what is right for you.
http://www.hottubworks.com/blog/bromine-vs-chlorine-for-spas-hot-tubs/
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"Opinion piece"? On a retailers website, you you think there's no bias? Since they start off talking about trichlor, which should NEVER be used in a hot tub, one can easily surmise that the rest of the article is filled with many more "inaccuracies".
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Hence the word "opinion", "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."
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Here is opinion piece regarding the bromine vs chlorine question. I found it easy to understand. But if course, you will decide what is right for you.
http://www.hottubworks.com/blog/bromine-vs-chlorine-for-spas-hot-tubs/
There is a whole bunch in the advertisement, yes advertisement that I don't agree with but you found it easy to understand. Who wrote it?
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I never used bromine but from what I've seen many people use chlorine without any issues.
It is easy and if you can time the dosing you can soak in little to no chlorine. But chlorine is not automatic like putting a bromine feeder and if you leave the tub for any length of time will get funky. But with that being said I have left my tub for a week or two while on vacation to no ill effects. One common newbie mistake is trying to keep chlorine levels at 3 ppm all the time.
You an try chlorine and if it doesn't work out you can convert back to bromine without draining the tub.
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I never used bromine but from what I've seen many people use chlorine without any issues.
It is easy and if you can time the dosing you can soak in little to no chlorine. But chlorine is not automatic like putting a bromine feeder and if you leave the tub for any length of time will get funky. But with that being said I have left my tub for a week or two while on vacation to no ill effects. One common newbie mistake is trying to keep chlorine levels at 3 ppm all the time.
You an try chlorine and if it doesn't work out you can convert back to bromine without draining the tub.
I'm following your lead, Vinnie. Soaking in .5ppm and then dose it when I get out. 2 weeks and the water looks great.
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"Opinion piece"? On a retailers website, you you think there's no bias? Since they start off talking about trichlor, which should NEVER be used in a hot tub, one can easily surmise that the rest of the article is filled with many more "inaccuracies".
So enlighten us rather than generalize and hint at inaccuracies? Because just about every other source I find via Google reaches the same conclusion that linked article does... Bromine for spas, Chlorine for pools. And yes, I'm sure this has been covered over and over but for the searches I have done here, it's usually "Do it this way because that's how I do it"
Main points being Bromine works better at higher temps and higher ph levels typical in a spa. Also Ozonators compliment bromine better.
Though it does seem Dichlor is the more popular option around here and I'm not sure why?
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Bromine is introduced via floater even when it is not required. Why add sanitizer when your tub is sanitized? Chlorine kills and then off gases. So you have very little smell. Bromine kills and then more is added. Always smelly.
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While it is correct that bromine works better at higher temps, it has its negatives. Tends to dry skin more. Worse odor.
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PH levels in a spa and pool should be the same - 7.2 to 7.6 range. Spa water being a little less forgiving can get lower or higher PH due to too much or too little of something being added. Running jets/air can make your PH do things as well.
I personally like the idea of not soaking in sanitizer just because hot tubs open your pores. Definitely no trichlor use although I would tend to think that using non chlorine shock a lot would be bad do to it's acidic nature.
If it ain't broke don't fix it ... if bromine is the sanitizer of choice then so be it and the same holds true with chlorine. I know that some people were experimenting with hydrogen peroxide and I don't know how that all turned out. I will say stay away from things like Baqua and the like - big money drain ... considering I can get close to a gallon of bleach for $2 or a 5 lb bucket of dichlor for $30.
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So enlighten us rather than generalize and hint at inaccuracies? Because just about every other source I find via Google reaches the same conclusion that linked article does... Bromine for spas, Chlorine for pools. And yes, I'm sure this has been covered over and over but for the searches I have done here, it's usually "Do it this way because that's how I do it"
Main points being Bromine works better at higher temps and higher ph levels typical in a spa. Also Ozonators compliment bromine better.
Though it does seem Dichlor is the more popular option around here and I'm not sure why?
Not just around here, but according to industry surveys they show that 50% of hot tubs use chlorine, 32% use bromine, and the rest are other systems such as Nature2/MPS, ozone alone (not always disinfected, but some people do it anyway), copper/silver ion systems, and other techniques (e.g. hydrogen peroxide, Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB).
Some of what that article said is just plain wrong. Bromine is not as strong an oxidizer NOR a disinfectant compared to chlorine. It is true that bromamines are still effective disinfectants while chloramines are not, but chloramines don't last long in spas (i.e. proper dosing makes the point irrelevant). People without ozonators and using bromine often report dull/cloudy water problems and need to shock periodically with chlorine (the same is true for Nature2/MPS). As for hot water, chlorine in a spa with the proper amount of CYA and no ozonator doesn't dissipate any faster than bromine. Bromine and bromamines smell different and some people don't like it especially the smell on the skin. The main difference is that bromine can be added in slow-dissolving bromine tabs while chlorine cannot (Trichlor tends to dissolve too quickly and spa manufacturers frown on it because if not dosed carefully the acidity can damage equipment if the pH crashes). The downside to this is that it's hard to not soak with a higher-than-desired bromine level (at least when using tabs) while with chlorine one can start a soak with minimal chlorine and then just dose right after one's soak.
As a general rule, if one is using a hot tub regularly, then chlorine works better and will keep the water clearer longer and allow longer times between water changes, especially if the Dichlor-then-bleach method is used to avoid CYA buildup. If one is using the hot tub less frequently, especially if one has an ozonator, then bromine is easier. If one uses a saltwater chlorine generator (e.g. ControlOMatic Technichlor (http://www.controlomatic.com/technichlor.html)), then that mitigates the dosing in between soaks though some spa manufacturers void their warranty if higher salt levels are used.
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I know that some people were experimenting with hydrogen peroxide and I don't know how that all turned out.
Hi Vinny. It is my wife and I that use hydrogen peroxide in our tub. Have been using it for a little over 1 1/2 years now with no problems. It is inexpensive and easy to use. So far at least, no downside for us.
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" considering I can get close to a gallon of bleach for $2 or a 5 lb bucket of dichlor for $30."
You mean, I can just add liquid bleach....like the kind I use for laundry....and not have to fuss with going to a pool store for chlorine?
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" considering I can get close to a gallon of bleach for $2 or a 5 lb bucket of dichlor for $30."
You mean, I can just add liquid bleach....like the kind I use for laundry....and not have to fuss with going to a pool store for chlorine?
Well, yes and no. NO - you can't use it right off the bat but ... YES - once you get to 30 PPM stabilizer you can use it. How do you get to 30 PPM stabilizer - add the equivalent of 30 PPM dichlor. So you need to keep either a mental or physical track of the amount of dichlor you use and then you can switch to bleach. Be aware now that some laundry bleach has become suds - ized in that it isn't 100% bleach but a combo of bleach and detergent - you can't use that at all. You also want unscented regular bleach - it used to be when it was 6.25% I added 1oz to 100 gallons for 1 PPM chlorine but now that bleach is 8.25% that amount is a little lower or you will add more chlorine. As a matter of fact the best way to super duper chlorinate a tub is to grab a bottle of bleach, pour it in and run the pumps for an hour; you can get some ahh-some as well while doing it ... super clean pipes and totally disinfected.
FYI - if you tell your dealer about using bleach it may void your warranty. It used to be written into manuals to not use it.
Two more things ... you don't need to use pool alkalinity increaser to raise alkalinity - use baking soda and you don't need to buy PH up use borax. In my tub, I just use baking soda and it raises both ... my pool does not react the same way. BTW, these two things may void your warranty as well but I'm not sure.
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I've tried both, and for me bromine via a floating brominator was way easier and cheaper. I got tired of having to add chlorine every single time I used my tub(which is pretty much daily). With a floating brominator I only have to refill it once every 2(sometimes closer to 3) weeks. And for me I barely notice the smell. It's at least not any more smelly than when I used chlorine. I'm not saying one method is better than the other. What works for some will not work for others. But for me it's the closest thing to set it and forget it. And once you get use to it, you won't have to check your ph levels nearly as much. I now check mine once a week and that's only because I'm a little paranoid. I could easily get by with once every two weeks.
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I've tried both, and for me bromine via a floating brominator was way easier and cheaper. I got tired of having to add chlorine every single time I used my tub(which is pretty much daily). With a floating brominator I only have to refill it once every 2(sometimes closer to 3) weeks. And for me I barely notice the smell. It's at least not any more smelly than when I used chlorine. I'm not saying one method is better than the other. What works for some will not work for others. But for me it's the closest thing to set it and forget it. And once you get use to it, you won't have to check your ph levels nearly as much. I now check mine once a week and that's only because I'm a little paranoid. I could easily get by with once every two weeks.
the part in bold is the most important thing to draw from this thread, there are a multitude of options in which to sanitize a spa: Bromine, Chlorine, Silver Ion/MPS, Baqua/Biguanide, Salt based chlorine and bromine generators, etc. not 1 single system can claim "the best" they all have pros/cons you just need to simply find the one that works best for YOU not what may work best for someone on an internet forum...just my .02
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the part in bold is the most important thing to draw from this thread, there are a multitude of options in which to sanitize a spa: Bromine, Chlorine, Silver Ion/MPS, Baqua/Biguanide, Salt based chlorine and bromine generators, etc. not 1 single system can claim "the best" they all have pros/cons you just need to simply find the one that works best for YOU not what may work best for someone on an internet forum...just my .02
This is so true ...
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Thanks for all the additional information. :)
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Okay got six bromine tablets in my new floater and set the number at 3 on the dial for a 300g tub. My current bromine is at 4.5. Should I add the floater or will this put my bromine to high? Also do I need to add a oxidizer shock if my bromine level is good?
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What is the quickest way to lower bromine levels other then using the tub and taking the floater out? Is there a product that you can add to lower the bromine?
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You can use chlorine/bromine neutralizer which is sodium thiosulfate.
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I am getting my water tested at the dealer every week as I do not rely on the test strips as they cannot give me an actual true reading. My bromine is now at 5.2 but ph is 8.2 a little high which i find changes up or down every few days. Is the alkilinity just as important as the ph? Also I have been reading of diseases that can be caught from hot tubs? How off would the ph, bromine and alkalinity levels be to get legionnaires disease or a skin rash?
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Your TA is more important than PH. At least it is in this respect. It is your TA that controls what the PH does. You really should learn how to properly balance your water. It is a bit of effort the first couple of times, but after you get it down it is not that difficult. One of the best articles I've ever seen on balancing water can be found here: http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634
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As for hot tub rash/itch/lung and Legionnaire's Disease, maintaining at least a minimum disinfectant level at all times is the most important. Of the other water parameters, the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level affects the active chlorine level and next the pH. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases the CYA by 9 ppm. The other water parameters don't affect the disinfection, though can lead to other problems such as calcium carbonate scaling.
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I want to add that hot tub rash in one person doesn't mean that your tub is causing it. One time one of my son's friend went into my tub with him - she got a rash and he didn't. She swore she got hot tub rash, I am fanatical about anyone being in either my pool or hot tub if I suspect there is a problem with the water, I suspect she was sensitive to something in the water ... Could have been the heat itself. Could it have been bacteria, yes I didn't have my water checked microscopically but a really bad biofilm or outbreak ... I doubt it.
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On another forum (see this post (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11064)) I kept track of 36 hot tub rash/itch/lung and similar incidents as well as one person who nearly died from Legionnaire's Disease. Many of those reports had people go to Doctor's for diagnosis and a few had cultures taken. While it is true that some people get what they think is hot tub itch when it is actually just a skin sensitivity to hot water jets or a reaction to some chemical, bacterial infections don't manifest themselves in the same way as described in this link (http://www.troublefreepool.com/~richardfalk/pool/rashes.htm).
The trend was pretty clear that insufficient disinfection was the primary reason whether that was from using "alternatives" or letting the chlorine get to zero for too long or using Dichlor for too long (building up too high a CYA level without proportionally raising the FC level).
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Chemgeek,
I quickly read the post but didn't go into any of the posts you listed. I did try to get into the link of chemical vs bacterial rash indications but it wouldn't open (I'm on a tablet). My question would be of the people who got the rash, were any of them soaking with people and they were the only one who got it? I do realize that a break in the skin could cause one person to get a rash and another person wouldn't.
I do follow Vermonters way of soaking but I was lucky enough to be on Doc's website when he was an active member so I followed it and was able to ask questions. I can't say that my son's friend didn't have hot tub rash but I guess anything can happen.
I suspect a lot of problems occur due to newbie lack of knowledge and we were all newbies at one point. Again, I don't know how many of those posts were newbies or tubbers without water care knowledge vs experienced tubbers or people with water care knowledge.
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I do follow Vermonters way of soaking but I was lucky enough to be on Doc's website when he was an active member so I followed it and was able to ask questions.
Hi Vinny,
Just curious - what is the "Vermonters way of soaking"?
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I do follow Vermonters way of soaking but I was lucky enough to be on Doc's website when he was an active member so I followed it and was able to ask questions.
Hi Vinny,
Just curious - what is the "Vermonters way of soaking"?
A little background - Vermonter is a Microbiologist and owns his own lab. He did experimenting on his tub as to bacteria counts and such so assuming he isn't some BS poster (I don't believe he is) I listened to what he had to say.
Vermonter's way is basically putting at least 3 PPM of chlorine AFTER soaking and making sure it stayed there for 20 minutes after you put it in. The idea is to soak in as little chlorine as possible. Also, you need to shock weekly with chlorine to give the tub an extra boost of killing power. His tub did have ozone and he understood the Microbiology end of this the way Chem geek understands the chemistry (maybe they both understand each other's world as well LOL!!)
Here's a link to what he wrote, it may be updated I just looked for the info ... I "learned" this over 10 years ago. http://www.rhtubs.com/dichlor_vermonter.htm
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I do follow Vermonters way of soaking but I was lucky enough to be on Doc's website when he was an active member so I followed it and was able to ask questions.
Hi Vinny,
Just curious - what is the "Vermonters way of soaking"?
A little background - Vermonter is a Microbiologist and owns his own lab. He did experimenting on his tub as to bacteria counts and such so assuming he isn't some BS poster (I don't believe he is) I listened to what he had to say.
Vermonter's way is basically putting at least 3 PPM of chlorine AFTER soaking and making sure it stayed there for 20 minutes after you put it in. The idea is to soak in as little chlorine as possible. Also, you need to shock weekly with chlorine to give the tub an extra boost of killing power. His tub did have ozone and he understood the Microbiology end of this the way Chem geek understands the chemistry (maybe they both understand each other's world as well LOL!!)
Here's a link to what he wrote, it may be updated I just looked for the info ... I "learned" this over 10 years ago. http://www.rhtubs.com/dichlor_vermonter.htm
Thanks Vinny. Also wanted to tell you that it's nice to have back on this forum!
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I do follow Vermonters way of soaking but I was lucky enough to be on Doc's website when he was an active member so I followed it and was able to ask questions.
Hi Vinny,
Just curious - what is the "Vermonters way of soaking"?
A little background - Vermonter is a Microbiologist and owns his own lab. He did experimenting on his tub as to bacteria counts and such so assuming he isn't some BS poster (I don't believe he is) I listened to what he had to say.
Vermonter's way is basically putting at least 3 PPM of chlorine AFTER soaking and making sure it stayed there for 20 minutes after you put it in. The idea is to soak in as little chlorine as possible. Also, you need to shock weekly with chlorine to give the tub an extra boost of killing power. His tub did have ozone and he understood the Microbiology end of this the way Chem geek understands the chemistry (maybe they both understand each other's world as well LOL!!)
Here's a link to what he wrote, it may be updated I just looked for the info ... I "learned" this over 10 years ago. http://www.rhtubs.com/dichlor_vermonter.htm
Thanks Vinny. Also wanted to tell you that it's nice to have back on this forum!
Thank you!!