Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: AmyTC on October 07, 2015, 06:20:35 pm
-
Trying to decide between these two brands, these models.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
They are comparable in size and price, but which is a better tub?
-
I like the Spirit. It's a nice look and a tad bigger. It's a high quality hot tub. It's a little deeper then the Bullfrog which is a positive in my mind. Whichever ever one you end up with get it in the 240v option. On the Marquis by doing that you upgrade the pump to a 160GPM pump which makes a big difference
-
Both are reputable manufactures, I really like that little A5, its very loaded for a small spa (plenty of lights including exterior lights, aux button to turn your pump on, big/bright LCD controls) and of the 16 different JetPak options YOU get to pick the 3 JetPak/Jet designs that are YOUR favorite rather than just being stuck with what they are giving you...personally I love the Oscillator in that lounge
-
I just got my first hot tub about a month ago and got the spirit with the 220 volt option. It's a great tub with an excellent and responsive company that has been great to work with. One of my jets stopped working and they sent me a giant box of like 10 of each type of jet the spirit has so problem solved. They also respond to emails extremely quickly and fix any concerns. The only drawback to the spirit in my opinion is that the spirits jets can not all go on at once. There is a turn knob that does essentially upper back then another for legs and lower back then another for whirlpool. Everything else has been great though.
-
I like the curved front of the Spirit and the layout allows for 4 seating positions, or room for 1-2 more people if you needed it. Also, there are a lot more foot and back of leg jets on the Spirit. Like Hottubguy said, if therapy is a main concern get the MP160 240V upgrade on the Spirit, the extra 40 gallons per minute is definitely noticeable. Good luck, you can't go wrong with Marquis.
-
The only drawback to the spirit in my opinion is that the spirits jets can not all go on at once. There is a turn knob that does essentially upper back then another for legs and lower back then another for whirlpool. Everything else has been great though.
That's one of the advantages of the Bullfrog. You can run everything at once and still get great pressure.
-
I like the Spirit. It's a nice look and a tad bigger. It's a high quality hot tub. It's a little deeper then the Bullfrog which is a positive in my mind. Whichever ever one you end up with get it in the 240v option. On the Marquis by doing that you upgrade the pump to a 160GPM pump which makes a big difference
Aren't the seats in the BF lower which makes the effective water level the same?
-
The only drawback to the spirit in my opinion is that the spirits jets can not all go on at once. There is a turn knob that does essentially upper back then another for legs and lower back then another for whirlpool. Everything else has been great though.
That's one of the advantages of the Bullfrog. You can run everything at once and still get great pressure.
Plus you can move the jets around and change to different configurations, etc making the tub a "new" tub each time you do.
We went with BF for lots of reasons, but the 90% less plumbing, more efficient design, 80% fewer holes in the tub, etc were too much to ignore when compared to the conventional, older tub designs.
-
LOL "older tub designs" Should be a bullfrog salesman.
-
LOL "older tub designs" Should be a bullfrog salesman.
It's factual. You may not like it, but it is true.
-
The 90% less plumbing statement is false. I count at least 12 tiny leg jets that each have to have their own plumbing line, also I believe there are lines that run behind the JetPaks to help with stagnant water, and there is plumbing running to each JetPak, the filters, bottom suctions etc.
Running with those small bullet jets for the feet, and restricting flow, it's understandable that you can run all of the jets at the same time, but it's not going to be very therapeutic in my opinion.
-
LOL "older tub designs" Should be a bullfrog salesman.
It's factual. You may not like it, but it is true.
So the other manufacturers don't have as big an R&D department as BF?
The only advantage it has is with you. It's right for you. And no one can say it's better for anyone. Stop selling.
And more efficient how? You can use a smaller pump to get the same feel? Or the right feel? Or are we talking about jet power again? We have already hashed that one to death.
-
The 90% less plumbing statement is false. I count at least 12 tiny leg jets that each have to have their own plumbing line, also I believe there are lines that run behind the JetPaks to help with stagnant water, and there is plumbing running to each JetPak, the filters, bottom suctions etc.
Running with those small bullet jets for the feet, and restricting flow, it's understandable that you can run all of the jets at the same time, but it's not going to be very therapeutic in my opinion.
It's not false. You can look at photos of their tubs without the shell and easily verify it.
The recirculation for behind the jetpaks is done via small holes in the manifold. Very simple and effective. No additional plumbing required.
Your opinion on therapy is noted, however, a wet test by yourself would allow you some actual data vs speculation.
I'd suggest you take the time to understand what it is you're commenting on as you obviously haven't done that.
-
LOL "older tub designs" Should be a bullfrog salesman.
It's factual. You may not like it, but it is true.
So the other manufacturers don't have as big an R&D department as BF?
The only advantage it has is with you. It's right for you. And no one can say it's better for anyone. Stop selling.
And more efficient how? You can use a smaller pump to get the same feel? Or the right feel? Or are we talking about jet power again? We have already hashed that one to death.
I haven't read anyone stating or alluding to other manufacturer's R&D department size. Are you commenting in the wrong thread? BF holds many patents on a new, innovative design. They spent the time and resources to develop and patent (no small feat...terribly expensive and time consuming to deal with USPTO.GOV) something different and it's expected that some will attempt to diminish that in an effort to hang onto legacy processes, designs, etc. Thinking people will see through that and understand.
That's the thing about forums. They exist to convey ideas, information, opinions. I was all set to order a Jetsetter until I came here and found out about the BF brand. Some reading, a call to their engineers (yes, they were happy to have an engineer discuss their design and answer my questions) and a visit to a dealer caused me to change course. Without that information I'd be relaxing in another tub, blissfully ignorant. Not a bad thing, but not the best solution. You can call it selling if you'd like. I try to give back to a community when it helps me. So far, I've had several thank yous via PM and a few friends consider BF where they never knew it existed. I'm pleased with that result.
Less plumbing = less resistance, less heat loss which = better efficiency. That's the short story. You're smarter than you're letting on. I'm not biting on your stinky bait regarding power. Nice try, though.
-
People always resist new ideas and cling to old ones. It's human nature.
Also, love the guy who has never been in a Bullfrog or seen one built telling us it's not therapeutic and there is more plumbing than claimed :D
-
People always resist new ideas and cling to old ones. It's human nature.
Also, love the guy who has never been in a Bullfrog or seen one built telling us it's not therapeutic and there is more plumbing than claimed :D
It's all "white noise"........service techs on message boards who "know everything" don't buy brand new hot tubs so it has no effect on anything other than something pounding on their chest on the internet claiming to know everything about a product they've have little to no experience with
-
This is still going on. No question bullfrog does it differently, does that make them better? My opinion is no only different. I think they make an nice tub and obviously put a lot of thought into there design. It's probably the perfect tub for some and probably not for others
-
Patents mean nothing. The major manufacturers are doing things different every year through research and development to improve on the designs that go back 40-50 years. BF does it different but not better.
Besides the BF rhetoric on there site showing a cheapo walmart tub with 150 bullet jets versus theirs with the least amount of jet paks and plumbing show me where a BF has 90% less plumbing than say a HS, any of them. Prove it, Yes less plumbing But not 90% I'd take that bet any day and win.
Prove that one little piece of BS from their web site.
Nothing but a sales pitch that people buy into. BS
And nothing but BF salesman pitchin their product with rhetoric and almost flat out lies just like every other manufacturer out there.
What's inside a jet pak with multiple water exits? Plumbing or magic? Not bad for a dopey tech who has never soaked in one. I have looked at them very closely though. Right, never seen one built. Neither has the guy who bought one or most business development specialists (salesman)
I said not "therapeutic"? Wow, now making things up. Oh, just like the sales pitch.
-
Patents mean nothing. The major manufacturers are doing things different every year through research and development to improve on the designs that go back 40-50 years. BF does it different but not better.
Besides the BF rhetoric on there site showing a cheapo walmart tub with 150 bullet jets versus theirs with the least amount of jet paks and plumbing show me where a BF has 90% less plumbing than say a HS, any of them. Prove it, Yes less plumbing But not 90% I'd take that bet any day and win.
Prove that one little piece of BS from their web site.
Nothing but a sales pitch that people buy into. BS
And nothing but BF salesman pitchin their product with rhetoric and almost flat out lies just like every other manufacturer out there.
What's inside a jet pak with multiple water exits? Plumbing or magic?
In their defense, it does say "up to 90% less" with a little * ;) Maybe even more if I got a ThermoSpa with 250 jets!
-
If you bought one because someone said "full power at every jet pac" or "90% less plumbing" you were lied to.
Buy because of comfort in the tub and the manufacturer/dealer/salesman. Not rhetoric or bs.
-
Patents mean nothing? Haahahhaa.
LOL...you're replying to responses to other people's posts! Pay attention!!!
:o :o :o :o
Patents mean nothing.
I said not "therapeutic"? Wow, now making things up. Oh, just like the sales pitch.
-
If you bought one because someone said "full power at every jet pac" or "90% less plumbing" you were lied to.
Buy because of comfort in the tub and the manufacturer/dealer/salesman. Not rhetoric or bs.
(http://rs48.pbsrc.com/albums/f226/PsychoPsonic/Funny/notthisshiatagain.jpg~c200)
-
I just wonder why Bullfrog doesn't use larger jets for the lower body and feet instead of the bullet jets in the spa in question?
Those tiny jets are creating pressure like the nozzle on the end of the hose, that's why they can all run at once. You can't tell me those tiny leg and foot jets are gonna be more therapeutic.
I think the Bullfrog is a fine spa, build quality is good, but "run all the jets at once" and "90% less plumbing my stories are misleading. I wish there was a company like Consumer Reports that would tear some spas apart and actually measure the plumbing lines.
-
Good lord, you guys are unreal ::)
Tman stop being such douche if you put half as much into helping people here with spa problems than talking sales chit it would be less stressful for you. For being some kind of "spa tech" you really do not help that many here with tech questions, in fact I don't see any that you really help technical wise. Not sure what you have against Bullfrog but it runs deep and obvious.
Markee really? People can choose what they like, they are not being ripped off or mislead anymore than any other brand out there. Until you have sat in one, don't judge a spa by it's cover. And yes you can run every jet at the same time when the pumps are on. Is it full pressure at every jet? No, but it gives you as much as it can without a diverter if you choose to shut off a seat you can and you can turn the smaller jets or larger jets not in a pack off as well.
Stagnant water isn't happening. B een running floor models with plenty of test soaks for over a year with no problems. So peole put that one to rest.
Hey Term nothings changed LOL!
-
Good lord, you guys are unreal ::)
Tman stop being a douche, if you put half as much into helping people here with spa problems than talking sales chit it would be less stressful for you. For being some kind of "spa tech" you really do not help that many here with tech questions, in fact I don't see any that you really help technical wise. Not sure what you have against Bullfrog but it runs deep and obvious.
Markee really? People can choose what they like, they are not being ripped off or mislead anymore than any other brand out there. Until you have sat in one, don't judge a spa by it's cover. And yes you can run every jet at the same time when the pumps are on. Is it full pressure at every jet? No, but it gives you as much as it can without a diverter if you choose to shut off a seat you can and you can turn the smaller jets or larger jets not in a pack off as well.
Stagnant water isn't happening. B een running floor models with plenty of test soaks for over a year with no problems. So peole put that one to rest.
Hey Term nothings changed LOL!
A diverter for every jet pak and a manifold for every jet pac. Boy you BF sales guys have had a lot of koolaid.
I got nothing against BF. They make a fine tub. Not better.
And I am a plumber not a tech. I've helped thousands of people over the years with real advice and not made up, out of a sales brochure, rhetoric.
I wonder if by putting the manifolds inside the jet pac doesn't make it noisier because it's closer to you versus hidden in the cabinet surrounded by insulation? I got more. Keep it up BF salesman.
I never call anyone names and respect all posters. But when I hear complete BS I call it out. Always have and always will.
Put it in perspective. Pumps move water controlled by electronics. Heaters heat water controlled by electronics. No matter how you plumb it to meet your needs at the jets they are all the same BF INCLUDED. Change the shell and cabinet design because customers all like something different.
Please don't pass the koolaid this way.
-
So Tman what kind of manifold do you think they are using? You thinking before the jet pak or inside and behind the pak?
-
So Tman what kind of manifold do you think they are using? You thinking before the jet pak or inside and behind the pak?
Well unless there's only one outlet in a jet pack then there must be some kind of water distribution system inside every pac. I held a pac but didn't really look inside up the hole to see. But I haven't had any koolaid, and am smart enough to know there must be some sort of "manifold/distribution" inside each pac. You know, one hole going in and several coming out?
Or is it patented/egine-reed majic? remember I'm just a dopey plumber.
-
Tman, it's good to see your opinion comes from a thorough review and understanding of the design.
-
Tman, it's good to see your opinion comes from a thorough review and understanding of the design.
https://youtu.be/TcxpbhM0DaA
-
Tman, it's good to see your opinion comes from a thorough review and understanding of the design.
OK, you give it a shot. Whats inside a jet pac?
-
Tman, it's good to see your opinion comes from a thorough review and understanding of the design.
OK, you give it a shot. Whats inside a jet pac?
Just as I thought you don't know. ::) You can drop the Kool-Aid chit as well, you should know by now I have always bucked the system. You can call it what ever you want, and I am not claiming it to be the next best thing to sliced bread. If you don't know how it works, how can you claim it doesn't?
Give it a rest.
-
You have to be careful around Tman, he doesn't like it when you state facts about BF spas. Even when someone on this very thread explained that he can only have upper or lower body jets but not at the same time with his Spirit, Tman still can't understand the concept that in a BF you can have ALL the jets on at EVERY seat simultaneously. And he'll go ballistic when you try to explain that BF spas don't have traditional diverters and every person can have strong power at their seat.
If you're looking for info about a spa, listen to actual owners rather someone like Tman who has demonstrated his ignorance.
-
You have to be careful around Tman, he doesn't like it when you state facts about BF spas.
dporter, which facts are you talking about? The one where someone said "90% less plumbing than the other spas"? Or the one where someone said you "get full power at every jet pac"? Or the one where someone said their are no diverters?
I hope the people here looking at BF don't consider any of these facts into their buying decision because I hate to break it to you but, NONE OF THEM ARE FACTS.
LOL and I'm the one uneducated.
Come on guys, give me something that says these "facts" are, well facts instead of marketing.
-
Tman, it's good to see your opinion comes from a thorough review and understanding of the design.
OK, you give it a shot. Whats inside a jet pac?
Just as I thought you don't know. ::) You can drop the Kool-Aid chit as well, you should know by now I have always bucked the system. You can call it what ever you want, and I am not claiming it to be the next best thing to sliced bread. If you don't know how it works, how can you claim it doesn't?
Give it a rest.
I'm here to learn, what's inside a jet pac?
I never said it didn't work. I said it is not better as claimed by owners and sellers. I see some of you are coming down a bit. But your making me the bad guy in the process by saying I don't know what I am talking about.
-
You have to be careful around Tman, he doesn't like it when you state facts about BF spas. Even when someone on this very thread explained that he can only have upper or lower body jets but not at the same time with his Spirit, Tman still can't understand the concept that in a BF you can have ALL the jets on at EVERY seat simultaneously. And he'll go ballistic when you try to explain that BF spas don't have traditional diverters and every person can have strong power at their seat.
If you're looking for info about a spa, listen to actual owners rather someone like Tman who has demonstrated his ignorance.
Every tub I ever owner (15-20) you could have all the jets on at the same time and none were BF.
Actual owners are likely going to justify their purchase decision by stating the same un-truths as the dealer. It's not their fault.
Oh and if I want more power at a particular pac in a BF do I have to turn off the diverters for other pacs?
-
The voice of reason is always the hardest to hear.
-
The voice of reason is always the hardest to hear.
(https://doctorkohns.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/irony-alert-ironic.jpg)
-
You have to be careful around Tman, he doesn't like it when you state facts about BF spas. Even when someone on this very thread explained that he can only have upper or lower body jets but not at the same time with his Spirit, Tman still can't understand the concept that in a BF you can have ALL the jets on at EVERY seat simultaneously. And he'll go ballistic when you try to explain that BF spas don't have traditional diverters and every person can have strong power at their seat.
If you're looking for info about a spa, listen to actual owners rather someone like Tman who has demonstrated his ignorance.
Every tub I ever owner (15-20) you could have all the jets on at the same time and none were BF.
Actual owners are likely going to justify their purchase decision by stating the same un-truths as the dealer. It's not their fault.
Oh and if I want more power at a particular pac in a BF do I have to turn off the diverters for other pacs?
You didn't understand any of my previous explanations so I'm not going to try again. Anyone reading posts on this website about how a BF works can easily go down to the shop and verify everything I've/we've said. And to answer your last question once again, no, if I want more power at a particular seat I don't have to turn the others down because all the seats start at max power and you turn them down from there to your individual liking.
-
You didn't understand any of my previous explanations so I'm not going to try again. Anyone reading posts on this website about how a BF works can easily go down to the shop and verify everything I've/we've said. And to answer your last question once again, no, if I want more power at a particular seat I don't have to turn the others down because all the seats start at max power and you turn them down from there to your individual liking.
deporter22, OK so I'm not understanding, I apologize. This is a public board, educate me just like any other potential buyer. So the "max power" you talk about, and I am quoting you, is all you get? If you turn off all the jet pacs except one it won't have any higher pressure/flow in the one pac left on? It will still be the same pressure/flow from the one remaining pac on? If that's the case where does the pressure/flow go to that would of normally gone to the other pacs? As a plumber that type of pump restriction, if that's the case, will severely affect pump longevity. Or does the pressure/flow change as you open or close valves? In other words if there's one jet pac on it's xxx amount of flow from one pac. Two pacs on xx amount of flow from 2 pacs. Three pacs on x amount of flow at 3 pacs. While we are at it can one of you BF sales guys chime in on the GPM of the pumps used by BF. Is it a Waterway? I didn't look that close.
We will take this one question at a time so I understand. I'm an up north redneck. Start with the "full pressure at all pacs" Because I am not getting the answers or maybe just not seeing them. You owners and dealers are the pro's. I'm the ignorant one.
I'm asking for help to understand the claims or "facts" to quote you again.
-
You didn't understand any of my previous explanations so I'm not going to try again. Anyone reading posts on this website about how a BF works can easily go down to the shop and verify everything I've/we've said. And to answer your last question once again, no, if I want more power at a particular seat I don't have to turn the others down because all the seats start at max power and you turn them down from there to your individual liking.
deporter22, OK so I'm not understanding, I apologize.
(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Obvious_fa8d07_757716.jpeg)
-
AV8R you do realize what dporter is saying is impossible don't you. No question bullfrog makes a great tub but it's no better then many other brands out there. It comes down to what brand fits you best. If I want leg and foot jets I probably wouldn't buy a bullfrog. If I want multiple level seating I wouldn't buy a bullfrog. If all I cared about was getting equal pressure at all seats maybe I would buy a bullfrog. They do things different then The rest and that works for them but for some of you guys who just bought these tubs to come on here and say that everything else is old design or dated is absurd. All the top manufacturers have big budgets for research and design and always are making improvements to their lines. 5 years ago bullfrog wasn't known as a very good tub just different and I wonder what exactly they have done differently to all of a sudden be regarded as one of the top manufacturers out there. Other then working on a few older ones, having there reps come in and see me and checking them out at some trade shows I don't have a ton of experience with them. That being said I think they are a neat concept
-
I know what dporter is saying is wrong. And I need to clarify that each jet pac does have a diverter, when I mention no diverter, I mean a conventional type that's in most spas.
-
5 years ago bullfrog wasn't known as a very good tub just different and I wonder what exactly they have done differently to all of a sudden be regarded as one of the top manufacturers out there.
One thing is for sure. They learned how to market their product. But it is close to bordering on all out deceit. And lots are getting fooled by it.
From what I saw in my evaluation. It is as is was before a nice tub. IMO there are nicer tubs out there. Those who claim better because of the marketing should really step back.
Arctic made the same mistake years ago with a bunch of twisted words.
-
That being said I think they are a neat concept
I do to. If someone wants a particular feel from a particular seat they can customize that seat.
Advantage BF
Give up on the rest.
-
That being said I think they are a neat concept
I do to. If someone wants a particular feel from a particular seat they can customize that seat.
Advantage BF
Give up on the rest.
So you give up on the fact that they have way less plumbing than any spa on the market, 90% or not which is debatable? Less fittings, less traditional type manifolds and less likely to leak? Which would also lead to better efficiency of water flow and less heat loss via the lack of plumbing through out the spa.
That's a lot to just give a rest on.
-
I love reading this stuff it makes my day. A bullfrog spa has a 2 inch line that runs to the bottom of the jet pack. A normal tub ( every other brand on earth) has a 2 inch line that then goes into a manifold that then goes into small hose's that then run to individual jets. The jet pack in a bullfrog is in essence the manifold. Imagine if on your hot springs, or sundance, or whatever you had jets attached directly to the manifold instead of having the small hoses that connect each jet. You would get awesome pressure with out a need for diverters on top to move pressure around. Yes if you shut of one pack you get more pressure at the other seats. But its a stupid amount of pressure. On a sundance or almost any other big name tub that dose not have 5 motors you have to divert pressure to one seat if you leave it in the middle it will kinda blow:) For those of you that have never worked on a second generation bullfrog don't make blanket statements when you don't understand what your talking about. Usually if the other guy has a better product or one the costumer really wants and you don't have it all you can do is badmouth there stuff. Or say its gimmicky. Like hot springs moto massage if you don't sell hot springs and someone really likes the moto massage you better scramble and bad mouth it. Now before you blast me for being a dumb salesman who drinks the cool aide. I am the salesman,and the owner. But i spent 15 years working and selling lots of brands (Islander, Great Lakes, Cal Spa, Dynasty,Nordic, Caldera, Sundance, White Water, Artisian, Bullfrog, i forget the rest) and i still turn wrenches on a regular bases. Thesis over
-
Do you count the hoses inside the jet pac as plumbing? I already made the assumption that the jet pac was the manifold but got blasted here for my ignorance from the owners and dealers who supposedly know how these things work.
Honestly I could care less about what one manufacturer calls innovative. But when it is marketed here on this forum with untruths and skewed "facts". Then I care. I am not scrambling because it's so mind blowing that everyone will soon be out of business except BF because.........
The feel of a hot tub has nothing to do with how much plumbing it has or whether you can change a jet pac in a seat. It has to do with proper flow dynamics and that's bigger than jet pacs and less plumbing, and requires engineers to figure out. And it can be accomplished in many ways. The fact that they may use a smaller GPM pump and motor to turn it (energy efficiency) to accomplish the same "feel" as another guy, may have some merit. Funny I never heard that mentioned in any of the koolaid induced pitches or blinded owner eyes? Probably cause it's "fact". I asked but never received any answer from the pros?
All this and we haven't even started on the "valves/diverters" You BF guys are dug in deep. But so am I.
FYI I don't care for the moto massage.
I also asked this question before of you BF pros. What if 6' of hose and a manifold inside the cabinet driven by a different pump feels better than 2' of hose and a manifold inside a jet pac? Who could possibly say either is better until you sit in front of the jets? And the math there works out to be about 30% less plumbing. I also asked if by putting the manifold inside the vessel doesn't create more noise? It is very unlikely I will get good solid answers for these questions. It is more likely the same or different BF owners and dealers will call me ignorant? Spirited debate is not possible when you, excuse me Jim, drink to much koolaid.
-
Do you count the hoses inside the jet pac as plumbing?
Uh...what hoses inside the jetpak?
This might be why you're being singled out. You keep pushing things you haven't taken the time to understand.
-
Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.
I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.
-
Singled out? I've been doing this for close to 15 years on this board. If you think this is the first time I have argued a "fact" you'd be wrong.
I think we got to the bottom of the "full power at all jet pacs" thing. It's not true and basically the same as everyone else by using plumbing and valves to send flow where you want it. Thanks Jim.
-
Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.
I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.
I spoke with one of their engineers before posting. There is no plumbing inside the JP. It's a big manifold.
-
I love reading this stuff it makes my day. A bullfrog spa has a 2 inch line that runs to the bottom of the jet pack. A normal tub ( every other brand on earth) has a 2 inch line that then goes into a manifold that then goes into small hose's that then run to individual jets. The jet pack in a bullfrog is in essence the manifold. Imagine if on your hot springs, or sundance, or whatever you had jets attached directly to the manifold instead of having the small hoses that connect each jet. You would get awesome pressure with out a need for diverters on top to move pressure around. Yes if you shut of one pack you get more pressure at the other seats. But its a stupid amount of pressure. On a sundance or almost any other big name tub that dose not have 5 motors you have to divert pressure to one seat if you leave it in the middle it will kinda blow:) For those of you that have never worked on a second generation bullfrog don't make blanket statements when you don't understand what your talking about. Usually if the other guy has a better product or one the costumer really wants and you don't have it all you can do is badmouth there stuff. Or say its gimmicky. Like hot springs moto massage if you don't sell hot springs and someone really likes the moto massage you better scramble and bad mouth it. Now before you blast me for being a dumb salesman who drinks the cool aide. I am the salesman,and the owner. But i spent 15 years working and selling lots of brands (Islander, Great Lakes, Cal Spa, Dynasty,Nordic, Caldera, Sundance, White Water, Artisian, Bullfrog, i forget the rest) and i still turn wrenches on a regular bases. Thesis over
I'm glad you have loads of knowledge but. How can you say that there is more flow from a BF versus any other brand when you don't know the GPM outflow at the jets for either? Have you found a way to measure it? And isn't it about feel and not pressure?
-
Side profile of jetpack... no hoses. Jets are fed directly off the back chamber (manifold). Have you even bothered to look any of this stuff up?
(https://www.recpoolsspasandmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/760_405_csupload_56788369.jpg)
-
Never mind I see it on their web site, the plumbing is inside the jet pac. A plastic manifold. Molded plumbing lines.
I think I am taking more time than most to understand it.
I spoke with one of their engineers before posting. There is no plumbing inside the JP. It's a big manifold.
No it's plumbing. Trust me on that one. If water flows through it, it's plumbing. A manifold is always counted as plumbing when you calculate friction flow loss. And actually has a higher friction flow loss than tubing because of cavitation inside.
-
Side profile of jetpack... no hoses. Jets are fed directly off the back chamber (manifold). Have you even bothered to look any of this stuff up?
(https://www.recpoolsspasandmore.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/760_405_csupload_56788369.jpg)
Ummm 5-6 posts up.
-
OK, so after weeks of arguing on the internet, you actually just looked at what you're arguing about 30 minutes ago.
And you're right, none of the numbers mean crap if it doesn't feel right. But it feels great. And with Bullfrog, if you don't like how a certain seat feels, you have 15 other options you can drop in till you do love it. Nobody else allows you to customize configuration like that.
-
And with Bullfrog, if you don't like how a certain seat feels, you have 15 other options you can drop in till you do love it. Nobody else allows you to customize configuration like that.
And that my friends is how BF gets such high ratings. I would guess that each pac even supplied with the same flow, based on number of outlets and configuration of said outlets would have a different flow rate? Is there a safeguard built in so if some dumb*** does turn all the pacs off except one the extra flow is diverted to say foot well fixed jets or something? To maintain the efficiency of the pump.
Arctic used to tout you can also customize each and every seat/jet because of the easy access to the plumbing. Seems changes after the sale would be difficult/costly to me. Drilling holes, mounting jets, is there additional ports available, running tubing, is the pump right sized? Most importantly is the pump and plumbing right sized. There are literally 100's of different flow rates in pumps. And literally thousands if you consider RPM/torque differences in all the motor manufacturers. Then combine differences in fitting count, manifold design, distance................finding the right flow rate to feel great becomes a daunting task. Then when you do it's only good for you, the other guy likes something different.
-
I heard you can move a Bullfrog tub by shutting off all the paks, but one. The resultant pressure is so high that the tub will move to where ever you want it.
-
Tman you are putting way more into this than what it is. ::) I think I said I was done 3 pages ago but at this point I am. Like I mentioned I don't know how many times now? I don't claim nor ever have that Bullfrog spas to be any better than anybody else's, if I have please show me. It's a different way to build a spa that gives the consumer more options for hydro therapy. It has less plumbing than any spa out there, it has interchangeable jet packs with 16 for now different options.
You want to understand it freaking buy one and tear it apart. Jeez where were you when we argued about no by-pass filtration vs water turn over?
End of story again. I will add, sorry about calling you a douche, we have both been here a long time and I should not have said that..
-
Singled out? I've been doing this for close to 15 years on this board. If you think this is the first time I have argued a "fact" you'd be wrong.
I think we got to the bottom of the "full power at all jet pacs" thing. It's not true and basically the same as everyone else by using plumbing and valves to send flow where you want it. Thanks Jim.
Yes, we have gotten the bottom of it, and intelligent people will easily see that Tman's uninformed statements about BF are heavily outweighed by people with actual experience. As much as he doesn't want to believe it, significant power at all the jet packs is true and BF does it without traditional diverters.
So for anyone who's searching these forums as you do your research, you have a choice to believe someone with no experience in the product he claims to know so much about and can't say anything other than "it's not true", or you can believe the people like myself who tested 7 different brands, none of which could produce strong power at all the seats simultaneously, and now own a BF and can speak from experience. Or even better you can just go down to the dealer and test one for yourself in order to easily discount everything Tman says.
-
actual experience?
dporter22
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Tman122
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2587
Intelligent people will recognize this.
-
I never wet tested a BF though.
Potential buyers I hope won't also be influenced by advertising. And will test the feel of any potential purchase themselves. The feel of a tub has absolutely nothing to do with how it's plumbed. The big players in the industry work hard on how a tub "feels". To much flow and it's unpleasant. Not enough and it's also unpleasant. No one can say BF is better or worse. Some here like to say I am saying it's worse which is simply not true. But most will recognize that. And hopefully most will also recognize that I AM NOT blinded by the BF advertising like some here. But that's easy to spot.
-
actual experience?
dporter22
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Tman122
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2587
Intelligent people will recognize this.
Post count equates to experience? :o
-
15-20 different manufacturers tubs owned over the years and likely 30-40 different tubs ranging from 2-3 years old to 20-25 years old. Disposed of close to 100 tubs. Repaired several hundreds of different tubs. Licensed plumber for 30 years. Still repair part time for select customers out of warranty tubs. Still maintain a relationship with 4-5 local dealerships.
Does that qualify as experience?
-
(http://i59.tinypic.com/n6ts5.jpg)
-
15-20 different manufacturers tubs owned over the years and likely 30-40 different tubs ranging from 2-3 years old to 20-25 years old. Disposed of close to 100 tubs. Repaired several hundreds of different tubs. Licensed plumber for 30 years. Still repair part time for select customers out of warranty tubs. Still maintain a relationship with 4-5 local dealerships.
Does that qualify as experience?
A lot better than post count! ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
15-20 different manufacturers tubs owned over the years and likely 30-40 different tubs ranging from 2-3 years old to 20-25 years old. Disposed of close to 100 tubs. Repaired several hundreds of different tubs. Licensed plumber for 30 years. Still repair part time for select customers out of warranty tubs. Still maintain a relationship with 4-5 local dealerships.
Does that qualify as experience?
A lot better than post count! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hey what's wrong with post count!
-
15-20 different manufacturers tubs owned over the years and likely 30-40 different tubs ranging from 2-3 years old to 20-25 years old. Disposed of close to 100 tubs. Repaired several hundreds of different tubs. Licensed plumber for 30 years. Still repair part time for select customers out of warranty tubs. Still maintain a relationship with 4-5 local dealerships.
Does that qualify as experience?
That checks the boxes!
-
Post count...........LOL Mr. 5000
-
It still makes me laugh:) Thanks for the stress relief. Tman you are right that bullfrogs are not for everyone and i don't think any one reputable is saying that. There are many hot tubs that are just as good. What feels good to one might not to another. Your catching so much flack because you have only a cursory knowledge of bullfrogs and try to act an expert. If someone wants to yap about Artic or D1 or Lazyboy I will keep my mouth shut because I've never worked on one and have zero experience with them. If you have any real questions about bullfrog then ask. My wife keeps saying i know everything. I might be taking that out of context though. :P
-
It still makes me laugh:) Thanks for the stress relief. Tman you are right that bullfrogs are not for everyone and i don't think any one reputable is saying that. There are many hot tubs that are just as good. What feels good to one might not to another. Your catching so much flack because you have only a cursory knowledge of bullfrogs and try to act an expert. If someone wants to yap about Artic or D1 or Lazyboy I will keep my mouth shut because I've never worked on one and have zero experience with them. If you have any real questions about bullfrog then ask. My wife keeps saying i know everything. I might be taking that out of context though. :P
Knowledge or not if you put one in front of me I could take it apart and put it back together faster than most. It's not rocket science. Somehow I feel I just insulted myself?
-
actual experience?
dporter22
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Tman122
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2587
Intelligent people will recognize this.
Post count equates to experience? :o
yes it does...look at Jacuzzi Jim, he has 2800+ posts and still doesn't know what he's doing
8) 8) 8) J/K Jim, I'll buy you a beer if you make it to the trade show in Vegas
-
actual experience?
dporter22
Junior Member
Posts: 41
Tman122
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2587
Intelligent people will recognize this.
Post count equates to experience? :o
yes it does...look at Jacuzzi Jim, he has 2800+ posts and still doesn't know what he's doing
8) 8) 8) J/K Jim, I'll buy you a beer if you make it to the trade show in Vegas
LOL! It's why I don't want to change from Jacuzzi Jim I'd lose all my post counts. 8) Doubt Vegas will happen, been pushing for it but it's also our crazy time for fireplace and stove sales here in the PNW.