Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: jayk2k3 on November 30, 2014, 05:14:13 pm
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what's the proper way to test 240 voltage to the heater element with a multimeter?
1. place one probe on one of the element terminals (positive). the second probe on the heater terminal housing (ground).
or do I
2. connect one probe to one terminal and the other to the other terminal?
is it always power to ground or can it be power to power?
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#2 is the only correct way.
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My opinion--ready for critic's!
On 240 ---you have 2 hot's and a ground.
So red-hot, black -hot and green ground
If you meter it -
--either hot (red or black) to ground should be 120--Hot to hot should be 240
It should not make any difference whether you connect or disconnect the feeder wires from the spa control panel connection points (terminals)
BUT
If you test the wires coming from the spa disconnect/GFCI panel while NOT terminated to the spa control panel---and they test ok---you will eliminate the feeder wires as part of a problem.
Then if you connect to the spa control panel terminations and then test the heater--if there is a problem --then it is between the terminals in the spa control panel and the heater.---A process of eliminating variables.
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(http://www.hottubsparatings.com/HeaterTesting2.gif)
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I think I said that.--some of the diagrams are very helpful and some of the diagrams are confusing---when compared to other diagrams---like one and 5 --the second meter could be reading 110 as you show in sk 4...
I think the bottom line is that if 110 is getting to each leg of the heater and you are getting 220 between legs and the heater doesn't work--get a new heater--or have some one test it that is qualified.
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The OP asked, "what's the proper way to test 240 voltage to the heater element with a multimeter". My diagram explains it EXACTLY (diagram #5 indicates a break in the black hot leg, hence there's NO WAY the second meter can read 110). If you don't understand it or are confused, as you say, "have some one test it that is qualified"
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There are calculations for testing heaters using the resistance setting on your tester also. But they vary greatly by manufacturer so you have to have values going in. Test a new heater coil of the same model/manufac is the best way. Not a lot of people have new coils laying around unless you have a busy dealer with techs. Test all voltages first as said. How old is the heater? What brand?
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No need to get excited Doc!
I think you proved my point---the confusing part---as sk 5 shows the second meter to ground and to black--it should read 110 but it doesn't because as you say there is a break in the black route from the main. HOWEVER--You show the SAME configuration in sk 4--but in that sk you see 110 on the meter---and you say it is feeding THRU the heater--which it could be
SO--sk4 meter and sk5-second meter are testing the exact same points---YET they are reading differently--hence---CONFUSING!
----when a novice is testing he does not have your assumptions printed out---he only has a meter reading---
So--I would test the leads un connected and then again connected---we need to eliminate the route from the main to the control panel first---
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#4 shows electricity flowing through the element, which it WILL. #5 shows the wires disconnected from the element, and the black line voltage wie not being fed power. The images ARE correct....the image reader is not ;-)
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I would maintain that if it is beyond your expertise------go to an electrical forum for advice-----or an electrical expert---both sources know more than WE do about electricity---you spent 35 years in hot tubs and know a little each facet as it relates to the industry and we all are happy that you share that info---------I spent 45 years in tenant improvement---where one deals with ALL trades and learns quite a lot with respect to each---so I am not your average dummy ------If your diagrams need explanations then they are confusing---I am not going to continue to argue the minutia with you---You are the same guy that swore to me that I couldn't use a #8 ground (along with 3#4's) from my service to the spa GFCI---which was not true and then you would not explain or back up your opinion---you went silent..
I rest my case---
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And I'll maintain that if you don't understand the pictures and explanations beneath, you should seek professional help, as you don't have the basic understanding of electricity and risk killing not only yourself, but others that may be invited into your hot tub.
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You are too excitable to be of help here
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I like the diagrams because I'm a visual person. They're very easy to read and understand.
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It seems Dr. Spa is correct in all the posts on this thread. The pictures are very nice and straightforward. Not sure where the confusion is.
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Thanks, Doc. The only thing confusing is why anyone would find your diagrams confusing. I am confused. :)
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"Profiles in courage"---by JFK---- was not written about people that agreed with the current pulpit occupant!
Rosie-----Can one of you in the fan club explain why sk 1 is the "ONLY" way to test voltage at the heater?
Serjiocal----In sk 2 is there any instance when the meter would read 110?
Ace---What DOES sk 3 confirm?
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Rosie-----Can one of you in the fan club explain why sk 1 is the "ONLY" way to test voltage at the heater?
Because if all you want to know is if the element is getting the correct amount of voltage, you need to measure 240v across terminals.
Serjiocal----In sk 2 is there any instance when the meter would read 110?
The way it is pictured, no.
Ace---What DOES sk 3 confirm?
If you read the text under it, it tells you. It confirms that some voltage is getting to the heater. It requires further testing to determine if the heater is getting correct voltage, which is what the original poster is asking how to test.
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Though it would be EXTREMELY rare, #2 could read 110v if element had a direct short to ground.
#3 goes along with #4, to demonstrate why testing from one individual leg to ground doesn't give any relevant information. Most people don't realize that if you have power going to one terminal of the heater, the electricity will also travel THROUGH the heater, and make the other terminal "appear" to have power.
But then, I have a feeling you already know all of this... ;) :o
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I hate electrical work. I'm a framer not a finisher.
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If the all the switches and sensors are working and it's sending 220v to the heater and the spa is not heating. It's a bad heater, no 2 ways about it! End of story..
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Though it would be EXTREMELY rare, #2 could read 110v if element had a direct short to ground.
In which case the spa should be tripping the breaker and then you would be troubleshooting a different issue ;D
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Do you think that maybe you should check the thermostatic control---prior to deciding that the heater is bad?
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This thread is about, "what's the proper way to test the voltage to the heater element". e.g. How do you test the voltage going to a heater element and determine if it's correct.
Causes as to why the voltage may be incorrect is a completely different subject, off topic, and irrelevant to the subject of this thread....how ever, as Jim says, if the element IS getting 220v and not heating, it's a bad element.
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Not to stir the pot but I find it hilarious that this was posted on another forum as a "tell me if I'm right about these sketches being goofy" question.... I got a good laugh when I saw that pop up on the other forum I was perusing last nite and today when another unrelated party mentioned the thermostat:
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/sketch-relevance-212234/
Guess the interwebs aren't so big :)
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Not to stir the pot but I find it hilarious that this was posted on another forum as a "tell me if I'm right about these sketches being goofy" question.... I got a good laugh when I saw that pop up on the other forum I was perusing last nite and today when another unrelated party mentioned the thermostat:
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/sketch-relevance-212234/
Guess the interwebs aren't so big :)
I think someone is taking this way too personally.
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Just a tad ;)
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Do you think that maybe you should check the thermostatic control---prior to deciding that the heater is bad?
Are you talking temp sensors and or the topside controls? Either way it doesn't matter, if the system is calling for heat and all parameters say ok, it sends 220v to the heater, it doesn't fluctuate in voltage. In some cases where 220v is lacking to the spa it may only send 110v to the heater, but the system doesn't know that there is only 110v. It only knows it's ok to send power to the heater. So again if you check and there is 220 going to the heater, but no heat. It's a bad heater. If you check and it's only getting 110v then you need to back track from there and find the problem. Pretty rare that happens but it does.
In a case of a bad temp sensor, the spa can be set at 100 and the water can be cold. That's because the sensor thinks it's 100 or 101 and does not send power to the heater, thus a cold spa. Or the spa is 108 and the temp sensor thinks it's only 90 so it keeps calling for heat. Thus a really hot spa, till it hits 112 and the high limit trips and shuts off power to the heater.
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And Dr Spa had it correct in his post and all the rest of you quizzlings never even needed to respond.
Now...who in here can give the proper way to check a heating element without even having the power on?
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Without power, check resistance. But as I said this gets tricky. Can you tell us what brand of heater? Could be listed as part of the control pac? Can you disassemble it? Get the tube in your hand? Different sizes of heaters have different resistance values and while your getting resistance between the terminals whats the right resistance? Follow?
This might help.
http://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Heating-Element
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Without power, check resistance. But as I said this gets tricky. Can you tell us what brand of heater? Could be listed as part of the control pac? Can you disassemble it? Get the tube in your hand? Different sizes of heaters have different resistance values and while your getting resistance between the terminals whats the right resistance? Follow?
Follow??? LOL, I know my trade well, and if you are a professional....you are able to decipher all this out I will presume. One of these days, this forum is going to get a complete novice electrocuted by giving them advise to do something they should never attempt.
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And Dr Spa had it correct in his post and all the rest of you quizzlings never even needed to respond.
Now...who in here can give the proper way to check a heating element without even having the power on?
OP asked the time...and every service tech on the forum wants to tell him how the watch was built :P :P
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Without power, check resistance. But as I said this gets tricky. Can you tell us what brand of heater? Could be listed as part of the control pac? Can you disassemble it? Get the tube in your hand? Different sizes of heaters have different resistance values and while your getting resistance between the terminals whats the right resistance? Follow?
Follow??? LOL, I know my trade well, and if you are a professional....you are able to decipher all this out I will presume. One of these days, this forum is going to get a complete novice electrocuted by giving them advise to do something they should never attempt.
My bad for assuming Kev B was the OP He must be an electrician but not to good with PC skills. I fixed it for him.