Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: watson524 on November 11, 2014, 11:40:15 am
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Hi everyone,
We've always thought about getting a hot tub but after sitting in our friend's immediately after a 10k race (we're both runners) we thought we should really move forward with looking at them and understanding what they're all about. Yesterday we went to 3 local places (I'm in Northeast PA and selection seems limited) and I think I nor have more questions than answers and I'm hoping you can help me out. I have limited experience with a commercial pool back about 20 years when my dad managed a development and I got the job of reading the test strips and cleaning the 60 or so odd filters when needed (just as a bit of background). It will mostly just be the 2 of us but we'd looking at a 6 - 8 person tub for when friends are here. I've heard some people say things rated for 8 really only comfortably fit 6 which is why we're looking for more seats that we probably need, for comfort, and my guess is no one ever says their tub is too big.
1.) I understand you have a few things going on to maintain good water quality, the sanitizer side (I'm seeing chlorine, bromine, UV, Ozone and salt as options) and then the Ph and Alkalinity size. Seems like Ph and Alkalinity get managed the same way regardless of what you choose for the sanitizer side, is that right? The first place we went to said because we live on open land and plan to put this next to our deck - for now, eventually patio/deck would be expanded to encompass the tub - and we have bears, we absolutely need to use chlorine to keep the bears away. True or not? I thought it was odd because the other 2 places (same company, 2 different locations) made no mention of this and immediately said you use Ozone. I am one of those people that are sensitive to ozone and can't use those home air filter things because the smell that they give off make me sick. I asked about this (none of the tubs were filled) and they said that's not an issue because of the way the ozone is put into the water and not the air. Can someone give me a run down on all this?
2.) Insulation.... the first place we went to had hot springs and sunrise. The other 2 places had South Seas Artesian and Sundance. First place said not having foam is better in case there's issue with repairs and showed us the green encapsulated foam "sheets" that can be replaced if need be. Second place was where we looked at a floor model Artesian and he explained about not wanting foam for the same reason as the first guy, so I thought I was all set.... last place (same company as #2) that guy said foam gives better insulation (he had all Sundance on display there and I guess sundance is foam) and repair isn't an issue. So now I'm confused. My gut tells me non foam is better for repair purposes but then the 3rd guy said that you have less repairs with the solid foam because things are so encapsulated and don't shift around with use and vibration. Seemed odd that the same company, 2 different people had such wildly differing opinions, makes me think they were just selling to the floor models they had so I was hoping for an unbiased opinion.
3.) Shell - the guy in place #3 showed us the thickness of a sundance shell but in place #2 the guy said the Artesian has a lifetime warranty on the shell. Is thickness something we really need to think about? Obviously if it "gave" when we got in it dry, I would give it a second thought, but assuming none are THAT thin, is this more about the warranty?
4.) Pumps.... I've done some reading here about "how many pumps are enough" and the wet test is really important - haven't even gotten that far yet - but in general, do all systems have diverters which as I understand is to maybe push more water flow to where you're sitting? Also it looks like most have "air inlet dials" where you get more air mixed with the water jet coming out for a different field? The one guy mentioned the air comes from the outside so you're injecting cold air into your tub and why would you want to do that..... uh.... in theory that makes sense but in practice? Also, I see some mention dual speed pumps and some just listed as circulation pumps. What are the difference? Aren't all pumps circulating the water?
5.) Jets - one of our friends has a PDC and it has over 100 jets but I found out half of those are air only. What's the point of air only jets and are they needed or is this strictly personal preference?
6.) Covers - the covers that come with floor models, are they ok or is it really worth it to get a better cover? Seems like some were throwing in a cover lifter, others not. But I see why one is needed. I do think I like the kind that go under the tub for the lifter vs attaching to the side (I'm adverse to holes in things just like on my boat).
7.) Service/delivery - the 3 places we've gone to so far seem to only deliver and can put it on a pad if they can get to it, we live on open land so that's not an issue. Doesn't seem like they want to do a teaching session or anything which I find odd. I know I have to run the 220v electrical which is no problem for us but I'd have thought they'd at least want to fill it, check things, maybe give a run through on how things work. Is that typical or am I expecting too much?
I know that's a lot of questions but I figured these would help me get better grounded while we were looking.
Thanks in advance!
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Hi everyone,
1.) I understand you have a few things going on to maintain good water quality, the sanitizer side (I'm seeing chlorine, bromine, UV, Ozone and salt as options) and then the Ph and Alkalinity size. Seems like Ph and Alkalinity get managed the same way regardless of what you choose for the sanitizer side, is that right? The first place we went to said because we live on open land and plan to put this next to our deck - for now, eventually patio/deck would be expanded to encompass the tub - and we have bears, we absolutely need to use chlorine to keep the bears away. True or not? I thought it was odd because the other 2 places (same company, 2 different locations) made no mention of this and immediately said you use Ozone. I am one of those people that are sensitive to ozone and can't use those home air filter things because the smell that they give off make me sick. I asked about this (none of the tubs were filled) and they said that's not an issue because of the way the ozone is put into the water and not the air. Can someone give me a run down on all this?
2.) Insulation.... the first place we went to had hot springs and sunrise. The other 2 places had South Seas Artesian and Sundance. First place said not having foam is better in case there's issue with repairs and showed us the green encapsulated foam "sheets" that can be replaced if need be. Second place was where we looked at a floor model Artesian and he explained about not wanting foam for the same reason as the first guy, so I thought I was all set.... last place (same company as #2) that guy said foam gives better insulation (he had all Sundance on display there and I guess sundance is foam) and repair isn't an issue. So now I'm confused. My gut tells me non foam is better for repair purposes but then the 3rd guy said that you have less repairs with the solid foam because things are so encapsulated and don't shift around with use and vibration. Seemed odd that the same company, 2 different people had such wildly differing opinions, makes me think they were just selling to the floor models they had so I was hoping for an unbiased opinion.
3.) Shell - the guy in place #3 showed us the thickness of a sundance shell but in place #2 the guy said the Artesian has a lifetime warranty on the shell. Is thickness something we really need to think about? Obviously if it "gave" when we got in it dry, I would give it a second thought, but assuming none are THAT thin, is this more about the warranty?
4.) Pumps.... I've done some reading here about "how many pumps are enough" and the wet test is really important - haven't even gotten that far yet - but in general, do all systems have diverters which as I understand is to maybe push more water flow to where you're sitting? Also it looks like most have "air inlet dials" where you get more air mixed with the water jet coming out for a different field? The one guy mentioned the air comes from the outside so you're injecting cold air into your tub and why would you want to do that..... uh.... in theory that makes sense but in practice? Also, I see some mention dual speed pumps and some just listed as circulation pumps. What are the difference? Aren't all pumps circulating the water?
5.) Jets - one of our friends has a PDC and it has over 100 jets but I found out half of those are air only. What's the point of air only jets and are they needed or is this strictly personal preference?
6.) Covers - the covers that come with floor models, are they ok or is it really worth it to get a better cover? Seems like some were throwing in a cover lifter, others not. But I see why one is needed. I do think I like the kind that go under the tub for the lifter vs attaching to the side (I'm adverse to holes in things just like on my boat).
7.) Service/delivery - the 3 places we've gone to so far seem to only deliver and can put it on a pad if they can get to it, we live on open land so that's not an issue. Doesn't seem like they want to do a teaching session or anything which I find odd. I know I have to run the 220v electrical which is no problem for us but I'd have thought they'd at least want to fill it, check things, maybe give a run through on how things work. Is that typical or am I expecting too much?
I know that's a lot of questions but I figured these would help me get better grounded while we were looking.
Thanks in advance!
Sanitizer....yes you need one, it's easy enough to switch if one doesn't work like you expected.
Insulation....yes you need some. Don't let leaks and the insulation design decide for you. Comfort with the dealer and the tub on your butt.
Shells.....they all last for as long as the tub and carry a lifetime warranty. Choose a quality manufacturer. Seems your looking at some.
Pumps....don't let HP figures skew your head. Wet test.
Jets.....ditto above.
Lifter....seems like your on the right track. I wouldn't pay for an upgrade until the second one. The tub will last for a few covers if it's from a quality manufacturer.
Service/Delivery.....a quick run down after a fill is customary. Choose a dealer who offers it. Ask.
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Went to a dealer today that sold Viking and Four Winds. To be honest, tho they didn't have a flashy show room and all, they took a lot of time with us, had us crawl around in various tubs after asking us some questions on usage and whatnot and recommending certain ones. We're actually going to wet test one of the Viking ones - Tradition- on Friday. It's got an interesting "lounger" configuring where it's not full lounger but let's you sit sidewise in 2 areas if you want and get the back and feet. The woman thought it was a good compromise since we are debating about the lounger. The thing that REALLY got me about this place was that they do full set up, wire it up (you have to have the wire ready but she said they're happy to talk to our electrician with any questions - we'd actually be doing the electrical work tho), they fill it, get it going, get the chemicals in it and give us a "spa school" lesson. I don't know a thing about the brands of tubs and based on pricing my guess is they're not top of the line but honestly, the fact that they're not just curb side delivery gives them an edge in my mind. She explained that you have ozone but you still add chlorine as needed, the ozone just means you don't use as much and if you're away, the water won't go completely south with no chemicals going in it.
She mentioned both of these are full foam but it's a soft cell vs the hard cell that has to be chipped out?
Still so many questions.... would love to hear anyone else's thoughts on my questions.
thanks!
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I would also check out Marquis Spas, they should have a dealer in your area.
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First of all, welcome to the forum. This might be your best step in understanding the hot tub world. I was going to ask if you are from the town of North East, Pennsylvania or from North Eastern PA! Ironically North East, PA is in Northwest, PA. But you mentioned bears, so I am guessing you are in North Eastern PA ;D
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Yep Northeast PA between Scranton and Stroudsburg. As for a Marquis Dealer, looks like the closest is just over an hour away. Not sure how they feel about a service range that wide but I can email them and ask. Seems like they sell pools, spas, pond supplies and house decorations based on their website.
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Yep Northeast PA between Scranton and Stroudsburg. As for a Marquis Dealer, looks like the closest is just over an hour away. Not sure how they feel about a service range that wide but I can email them and ask. Seems like they sell pools, spas, pond supplies and house decorations based on their website.
Yes an hour distance is a bit much but you can always ask how much they charge for coming out (yes, even under warranty they can charge a trip charge, especially at that distance). Check out all the top spa maker websites and use their dealer locators to see who is in your area, you never know who might be local. Take your time and shop them all then wet test your favorite spas/dealers.
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Thanks for the advice. The odd thing I'm finding of our local dealers on the "top" spa brands is they want to just do driveway drop off and that's it. That just seems very odd to me and makes me very uncomfortable. We're going to try to look down towards Stroudsburg more to see how they are, Hot Spring, Caldera and Bahama down there, as far as service/setup.
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We bought our tub from a dealer who is about 1 1/2 hours away. I have a written agreement with them that for the first year they will not charge any travel time and after that I think it is a flat rate of 2 hours, but they will do their best to use a local technician so there would not be any travel time. Maybe you could work out something like this?
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A Listing of the top 3 to 5 brands would be helpful but I haven't found one! I think Sundance and Hot Springs would be in there---2nd most important item is the dealer---reputation---ability and helpfulness---I looked for an old guy in business 5 years or longer---newbysa come and go.
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Given what I'm seeing of dealers around me, not having one of the top brands is being outweighed by the service of the "lower brand" company. It's really that startling the difference. The idea of not being charged for someone further away is interesting but so far even "farther away" wants to dump and run.
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I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “dump and run”? When we bought our tub, we had it delivered and set in place. It was up to us to get the electrical hook up. Because we were 1 1/2 hours away, the dealer went through different chemical options, how to maintain the spa, etc. in their showroom. Is there something else you are looking for?
The other thing I should say is not to be scared off by all this. It really is not rocket science. It can seem pretty overwhelming when you are first looking, but it does not take that long to get comfortable with maintaining the spa.
My best advice would be to get a name brand spa with a good reputation that you are comfortable in (wet test) from a dealer you are comfortable with.
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I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “dump and run”?
Basically most places are looking to drop it off in the driveway and go. Some said if they can easily get to where we want it, they can place it (we have a wide open yard so that's not an issue). While I understand we have to have the electrical run, only one place said anything about actually hooking it up from our wires to the tub, filling it, checking it over after its filled and taking us through "spa school". The rest of them are basically in the "dump and run" business from what I can gather based on conversations with us. The one place I'm so far comfortable with said most issues will pop up within 30 minutes of filling and running as fittings can shift in transport etc and that's why they want to see it filled, check everything etc. which makes perfect sense to me.
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I guess I’m not sure what the normal procedure is. I can only go by what happened with us, and by your definition I suppose it was close to “dump and run”. Through the dealer we arranged for delivery. As we put our tub on a roof deck we also needed to get it lifted in place. We paid for the crane, but arranged it through the dealer. I should also mention that there was no upcharge for this. We paid what the crane operator charged - the dealer got nothing extra from this. It was our electrician, not the dealer, who hooked the tub up. And certainly no one waited around while we filled the tub.
Having said all the above, I believe our tub may have been delivered this way because the dealer was so far away from us. I’m not 100% sure, but I think I remember them saying something to the effect that normally they would go over chemicals, etc. with us when the spa was delivered, but because we were so far away they would only do this in the showroom.
It all worked out fine for us but it is possible that ours was a “unique” experience because of our distance from the dealer. And just so you know, the reason we went with a dealer so far away was that we really liked this dealer and they were selling a tub that we really liked (we bought the Jacuzzi J-345).
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Thanks for your perspective, it's good to know that your feelings towards the dealer (and the tub model itself) is what drove you to do it. Comfort with the dealer is important to me and the other interesting thing I found is that the few dealers we've talked to that do the "dump and run" ALSO don't do service, they farm it out. Not sure if that's the norm or not but struck me as odd.
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If the only thing between you handing the dealer money is the hook up---I would tell him that and watch him offer to do the hook up! Our dealer has one man that is his start up guy--he is not an electrician or a plumber but he has spend a few years at least hooking up tubs---un hooking them and starting them up--he checked my electrical, rearranged the jumpers in the tub control panel to operate on 60 amp and did the start up and the chemical install and orientation.
I personally would not buy from a "dump and run" dealer---if that is all he does them buy it on line and have it shipped---the dealer is providing no value in that scenario.
good luck though!
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I actually don't mind the hookup part really, it's just the appearance of lack of customer service by not wanting to set it up and get it going and making sure all is ok. Went to a place tonite (same company as a place we visited over the weekend tho only 30 minutes away vs an hour). Decent price on a tub but wanted over $500 to deliver it, no setup, just to deliver. Seems bizarre to me. I mean sure I have a trailer and probably could fit it on there but.......... Guess I'm just learning this is a different industry than those I've dealt with in the past.
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I think the bottom line here is that you need to be comfortable with the dealer you buy from. I know that I would not have purchased from a dealer I did not have confidence in.
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I'll chime in my 2cents. From personal experience, I would prefer an insulated cabinet instead of a foam shell, or better yet, a combination of the two. I have a foam shell (2000 Sundance) and I have had a few times where the circuit breaker tripped and shut the tub off. The water in the shell stayed nice and cozy, but the service area was vunerable to the cold and the tee housing with the flow switch swelled and cracked. Caused me a mess in the dead of winter.
For pumps, I prefer having a dedicated circ pump (even if they can be a PITA), and then depending on how many will use the tub you may want 1 jet pump or 2 jet pumps. I like 2 jet pumps because I can have 2-4 people in the tub at any time and I like that extra water movement on all available seats and floor.
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I'll chime in my 2cents. From personal experience, I would prefer an insulated cabinet instead of a foam shell, or better yet, a combination of the two. I have a foam shell (2000 Sundance) and I have had a few times where the circuit breaker tripped and shut the tub off. The water in the shell stayed nice and cozy, but the service area was vunerable to the cold and the tee housing with the flow switch swelled and cracked. Caused me a mess in the dead of winter.
For pumps, I prefer having a dedicated circ pump (even if they can be a PITA), and then depending on how many will use the tub you may want 1 jet pump or 2 jet pumps. I like 2 jet pumps because I can have 2-4 people in the tub at any time and I like that extra water movement on all available seats and floor.
Personally I like Hot Springs method (go figure!) which is to separate the circ pump breaker from the breaker for the rest of the components in the hot tub (heater, jet pumps, ozonator, controls...) so that if one of those components trips the breaker the circ pump will continue to run and keep water flowing. Its a great idea for tubs in cold weather and you still get the fully foam insulated spa.
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I'm not quite sure why your local dealers won't do the hook up. My guess is that any issues or repairs would be welcomed by these guys with the same lack of customer support that they provide to their customers initially. By the way, I like perimeter / easy access insulation.
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We're still in the investigation process but we did find a Jacuzzi dealer that seems good to work with. Friends of ours bought their tub from them back in 2000 when they were selling a different brand but raved about their customer service and on the surface I'd have to agree. They do want an electrician to sign off on the hook up I guess (my husband stopped by today) but that's not an issue. I can run the wires and all myself and have one of my electrician friends review/sign off on it.
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Not sure what size tub you're looking for, but we bought the Jacuzzi J-345 this spring and really like it. Haven't even had it a year, so it's far, far too early to tell you anything about reliability, etc., but we certainly do enjoy the tub. As for the size, it's great for my wife and I. It also fits 4 very comfortably. You can fit 6, but that is getting pretty tight.
Continued good luck with your search.
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Think we're looking at the J-365 from what my husband saw in the showroom. They gave him pricing of $7,950 on it. The J-385 would be around $10,700 if they have to order it (if it's a big order, price may come down a bit) and it looks like the only difference is it's a bit wider to be a true square and has a few more jets but for the price difference, I'm thinking it's not worth it. I'm going to go take a look at it and decide if we want to do a wet test. We had thought about a lounger and are still debating a bit but we'll see when we get there.
Since you have the 345, you might be able to tell me... On other tubs we've seen, there's diverter valves on top (2) which these tubs have and then on the jets themselves you can turn the face plate for more or less pressure which these seem to have but then on others we've seen, there's knobs in different places on the top that I think let air into the jets and the 345 and 365 doesn't seem to have those. Just wondering how Jacuzzi does that since so many others I've looked at have the 3 systems for changing jets on/pressure and Jacuzzi seems to be "missing" a system.
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Yes, the J-345 does have the air injection and I'm sure the J-365 will have it as well. You will see "toggle switches" by each of the seats (on the inside of the shell, just down from the top of the shell) and this is the air control. Makes quite a difference in the pressure from the jets. And you are correct, they also have the diverter valves and you can individually control the jets (there is one seat where there is no individual jet control but on all the others you can control them - to be honest though we very seldom use this control - we use the diverter valves and the air injectors all the time, but we very seldom if ever use the controls on the individual jets). As for wet testing, I would strongly recommend you do so. We put our tub on a roof deck and were restricted in the size we could get. The largest tub we could get was a 7' x 7'. Originally we were looking at the J-335 as I wanted a lounger. When we wet tested the J-335 my wife really floated out of it, and while I wasn't as bad, I did still float. So we ended up with the J-345 instead. We were so very glad we wet tested. I should also add that the price you are being offered on the J-365 sounds pretty good. I don't put a lot of stock in price comparisons on this web site, because different jurisdictions have different prices due to a lot of different circumstances, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like a pretty good deal.
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Ok I think I see them in the picture and will be on the lookout when I go look at the tub. I'm like you, I could see us using the diverter and the toggles more than the faceplates of the jets themselves for adjustment. We'll definitely be wet testing the one we buy. Right now I'm just trying to figure out the layout and see which ones are worth the wet test :) So far this Jacuzzi is getting bumped high up on the list given that we're comfortable with the dealer too. I thought it was a bit odd that each of the pumps are single speed only but I guess it must work LOL! I like that there's a circ pump too since I'm assuming it's a very low HP and will use less power for the circulation part vs one of the full sized pumps coming on.
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Up until 2014, one of the two pumps on the Jacuzzi was a two speed. I'm not really sure why they changed it, although someone told me that the single speed pump would last longer. This is our first tub, so I can't say for sure if we would have used that lower speed. We had heard from others that they did like it, but with not having had a tub before, it is not something we miss.
One other thing I should point out to you with Jacuzzi. If you do decide to get one, you can have the wiring configured to either 40, 50 or 60 amp. I'm not sure about the 40 amp setting - if I remember correctly with 40 amp if you have either of the Jet Pumps on the heater will not come on. I know with the 50 amp setting if you have both of the Jet Pumps on the heater will not come on and if you have the 60 amp setting you can have both Jet Pumps on and the heater will still come on. There is no extra charge with any of this. I believe the tubs come set up for 50 amps and it is a very minor adjustment they do to switch it over to 60 amps. It all depends on the wiring you run. With our situation we had built a new house and had it pre-wired for a hot tub. Only problem was, unbeknown to us, our electrician had pre-wired for 50 amps. We really debated on what to do and in the end we spent the extra money to have new wire run so we could go with the 60 amp set up. We are really glad we did this. If you are wiring from scratch and have the ability to do so, I would strongly advise you to run the correct wiring so you can set the tub up for 60 amp service. Again, this way your heater will still engage if you have both Jet Pumps running.
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Thanks for the tips. I definitely plan to run #6 AWG and a 60a breaker in the main panel with a 60a GFCI in the spa panel so we should be covered.
I'm not so concerned about 1 speed or 2 speed, so long as it feels good at full blast. I've been in one recently that even at full blast it just didn't seem strong enough.