Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: whariwharangi on May 10, 2014, 10:07:56 pm
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How do I determine if a hot tub in my neighborhood is causing structure borne noise in my home?
Where can I find tonal (low frequency hum) noise nuisance standards as they apply to hot tubs?
There are at least three hot tubs causing noise at night. One is 300 meters away over the rooftops. Another one causing vibration in my wood frame house. How do I get the noise to stop?
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Are you actually serious?
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You may be able to find the specification on a particular spa by contacting the manufacturer. However, this really wont tell you anything, other than how much noise it makes under controlled conditions. Once the spa is installed out in real world conditions, the noise can be drastically amplified under a multiple of conditions. Vibrations can be multiplied as they travel through a deck (turning the entire deck into a "speaker)", through concrete to the foundation of the house (turning the house into a speaker), or though some other "thing". Think "inadvertent amphitheater". I've seen where moving the spa as little as 3" can cut the noise in half.
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This is a tough one, maybe it is, or maybe it is't the hot tub. The only way to evaluate this problem is to make an effrot to measure, document, or identify any frequency hum. The problem is, the potential of finding the source, or the direction from which it comes will be a daunting task. UNLESS of course, you can monitor the noise and then power down each individual hot tub, but I don't think this is practical in your situation, as you may have a "suspect", but you would need their cooperation during the evaluation process.
We have had customers who have dealt with situations like this from opposing neighbors that claimed it was their spa, but we went out and coordinated and monitored what was referred to as the noise which continued unabated after we shut the spa down, proving it wasn't the spa. That does not mean the neighbor was convinced with such a non-technical evaluation, causing them to continue with thier opinion, in spite of this proof.
There is a low frequency humm phenomenon being talked about throughout the country that has yet to be identified, so far no one is talking about what it is, but theories are abundant. :-\
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Are you actually serious?
Yes. I've had nearly every night since christmas disturbed by vibration and noise by someones machinery. You have no idea what 'serious' is until that happens to you.
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This is a tough one, maybe it is, or maybe it is't the hot tub. The only way to evaluate this problem is to make an effrot to measure, document, or identify any frequency hum. The problem is, the potential of finding the source, or the direction from which it comes will be a daunting task. UNLESS of course, you can monitor the noise and then power down each individual hot tub, but I don't think this is practical in your situation, as you may have a "suspect", but you would need their cooperation during the evaluation process.
We have had customers who have dealt with situations like this from opposing neighbors that claimed it was their spa, but we went out and coordinated and monitored what was referred to as the noise which continued unabated after we shut the spa down, proving it wasn't the spa. That does not mean the neighbor was convinced with such a non-technical evaluation, causing them to continue with thier opinion, in spite of this proof.
There is a low frequency humm phenomenon being talked about throughout the country that has yet to be identified, so far no one is talking about what it is, but theories are abundant. :-\
I've been living in this house for 8 years. The problem started at christmas 2013. Its not the 'hum' ... it usually starts between 2230 and 0130 and shuts off at 0700 ... its someones machinery.
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Why don't you ask the neighbor to shut it off for the night to see if it stops?
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Why don't you ask the neighbor to shut it off for the night to see if it stops?
There are several hot tubs ... the first problem is finding a time when none of the others are operating. The second is the ambient noise in daytime so its a night time deal. The third is getting cooperation from the owner ... I have been refused three out of three (and it did not get uncivil). I guess the attitude is that since its not a problem for them it can't possibly be a problem for me.
Part of it is the tubs are not loud. The property line dBA is not above 45. In house its below 30dbA (limits of the meter) however the dBC ratings are more than 10db higher at property line and are above 30db in house. Its the tonal component of low frequency low amplitude noise but it penetrates the walls. Think of a mosquito whining in your ear. The frequency is low enough though to resonate with components of the house. How do you inpart that to the owner of a tub?
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IMO, any tub you can hear from 300 meters should be deafening to people actually using it. Some mounting screws on my old tub worked loose and I could hear the hum from my neighbors door 30 meters away, but tighening it up fixed it. Most A/c comressors are far nosier than any hot tub I've been around.
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IMO, any tub you can hear from 300 meters should be deafening to people actually using it. Some mounting screws on my old tub worked loose and I could hear the hum from my neighbors door 30 meters away, but tighening it up fixed it. Most A/c comressors are far nosier than any hot tub I've been around.
Agreed. I can here my neighbors heat pump from the side of my house.
Whariwharangi, are you in a town house situation?
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If hot tub noise from 300 meters away bothers you, you're living in the wrong neighborhood. Either that, or train you mind to enjoy it, instead of complaining about it.
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Some of my neighbors might hear my hot tub it they stood and the window on a very quiet night, between gun shots and speeders on the nearby street.
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If hot tub noise from 300 meters away bothers you, you're living in the wrong neighborhood. Either that, or train you mind to enjoy it, instead of complaining about it.
Noise is a serious detractor of health. If the hot tub community wants to have this sort of attitude instead of coming up with solutions ensuring no noise in my house then perhaps we should just make hot tubs illegal.
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IMO, any tub you can hear from 300 meters should be deafening to people actually using it. Some mounting screws on my old tub worked loose and I could hear the hum from my neighbors door 30 meters away, but tighening it up fixed it. Most A/c comressors are far nosier than any hot tub I've been around.
The situation is its on top of a hill. Hes boxed the tub in - east north and west and under a deck so all noise is broadcast in one direction over roof tops. The low frequency sound carries a long way ... particularly in an area that is otherwise quiet. When there is a temperature inversion ... which we are prone to get in winter and spring ... the low frequency noise bends downward ... and my house has direct line of sight over the roof tops. Its not loud .. its tonal low frequency noise that is heard as a buzzing noise in the walls. You almost can't hear it outside due to ambient noise ... the walls filter out the ambient stuff.
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Buy him a mat for under his tub see if he bites. Neighborhood rules likely apply and they can get grey/sketchy/difficult to enforce or most likely non existent. Have you gone to your city/township/association/county board? See if codes are in place?
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Some of my neighbors might hear my hot tub it they stood and the window on a very quiet night, between gun shots and speeders on the nearby street.
I guess I'm lucky that way ... very few gun shots and the speeders go to bed around midnight. In the wee hours of the morning the only noise to be heard is that generated by hot tubs and residential heat pumps. Which makes it really annoying. One of the standards suggest 10dBA should be added to any noise readings in otherwise quiet residential areas like mine.
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Buy him a mat for under his tub see if he bites. Neighborhood rules likely apply and they can get grey/sketchy/difficult to enforce or most likely non existent. Have you gone to your city/township/association/county board? See if codes are in place?
The bylaw is there ... no noise that may annoy a person or persons ... no machinery silent hours ... The problem is enforcement. The bylaw officer has no meter, no standard (ie world health organization guidelines for community noise) and no backgound or training in noise and acoustics. Apparently I don't qualify as a person and hot tubs don't count as machinery ...
The only option left is to go to the courts. The problem is to get evidence that ties the noise and vibration experienced in the house with the one or more noise sources running at any given time. Thats thousands in consultant fees and thousands in legal costs ... the only positive note is that the environmental law usually requires the polluter to pay those costs. You could probably buy several hot tubs for that amount ... and all because the owners don't want to change bearings/impellors and put up sound deflectors.
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Life's too short to worry about a hum. What do people do who live next to a freeway or interstate? They get used to it. I get the feeling that you want to hear it so you can beeotch about it. Move on.
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Life's too short to worry about a hum. What do people do who live next to a freeway or interstate? They get used to it. I get the feeling that you want to hear it so you can beeotch about it. Move on.
Have a read and try again ...
Neighborhood noise is serious health endangerment.
Noise Facts
http://www.freewebs.com/noisefacts/
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I suggest you invest in a set of foam rubber ear plugs.
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I guess this is an example of why a small silent circ pump is a better way to go....Being a good neighbor! :)
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I suggest you invest in a set of foam rubber ear plugs.
The problem is the vibration wakes me up. Sometimes the episodes last for hours (probably due to heating cycles) The ear plugs don't stop the vibration.
Besides which I paid a quarter million for my home and you have no right to make noise in it.
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How about white noise?
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How about white noise?
I try running a fan ... it helps until the vibrations start ... after which 'white' noise no longer works.
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I suggest you invest in a set of foam rubber ear plugs.
The problem is the vibration wakes me up. Sometimes the episodes last for hours (probably due to heating cycles) The ear plugs don't stop the vibration.
Besides which I paid a quarter million for my home and you have no right to make noise in it.
Who would pay a quarter mil for a paper mache home?
I'm just joking pal. I'm getting some bad vibes from this thread now, must leave.
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Noise is a serious detractor of health. If the hot tub community wants to have this sort of attitude instead of coming up with solutions ensuring no noise in my house then perhaps we should just make hot tubs illegal.
Obviously this is a serious matter to you. You have a better understanding of what you're talking about, but it is impossible for us to hear what you hear. At the same time, we do not know the conditions, surroundings, the rules in play, or the people involved, but we have offered some accomodating insight to the problem. Focus on sound absorption at the point of origin. But it doesn't sound like that is going to work either.
In that case, I would suggest turnabout as fairplay, get a bigger hot tub, take a soak every evening. You can mellow out each evening, soon you will have forgotten what bothers you, and you will discover hot tubs are a serious health enhancement, and you will sleep like never before. Maybe that's why they got thiers
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Noise is a serious detractor of health. If the hot tub community wants to have this sort of attitude instead of coming up with solutions ensuring no noise in my house then perhaps we should just make hot tubs illegal.
Obviously this is a serious matter to you. You have a better understanding of what you're talking about, but it is impossible for us to hear what you hear. At the same time, we do not know the conditions, surroundings, the rules in play, or the people involved, but we have offered some accomodating insight to the problem. Focus on sound absorption at the point of origin. But it doesn't sound like that is going to work either.
In that case, I would suggest turnabout as fairplay, get a bigger hot tub, take a soak every evening. You can mellow out each evening, soon you will have forgotten what bothers you, and you will discover hot tubs are a serious health enhancement, and you will sleep like never before. Maybe that's why they got thiers
I'm not interested in being a nuisance to my neighbors. These machines are causing a nuisance for a lot of people. Theres lots of evidence that there is a problem and it needs to be dealt with.
Calgary
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/24/calgary-council-noise-bylaw-hot-tubs-air-conditioners_n_3146621.html
Kamloops
http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20120911/KAMLOOPS0101/309119980/-1/kamloops/neighbours-complain-about-noisy-hot-tub
London UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1305456/HOME-TRUTHS-Hot-tub-relaxing-fence.html
Mayfield Heights Ohio
http://www.olympichottub.com/hot-tubs-sauna-blog/2011/05/hot-tub-noise/
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I'm not sure the industry can prevent people from getting a noisy hot tub. There's lots out there that are noisy. And some that aren't. Most people don't consider noise when they purchase.
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How do you know the noise is coming from a hot tub? My tub is just outside my bedroom window. I don't hear that but I hear my central air when that kicks on.
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How do you know the noise is coming from a hot tub? My tub is just outside my bedroom window. I don't hear that but I hear my central air when that kicks on.
By wandering the neighborhood after being woken for the upteenth time. Then its cause and effect. 'That hot tub is on while there is noise in the house' attributions can be made over time. Unfortunately thats likely not enough proof for a court.
Right now trying to obtain audio recordings inside and outside house and as close to the tub as I can get. Apparently FFT analysis will render an acoustic signature. The problem is getting a recorder with a microphone sensitive enough for the low volume and low frequency inside the house. Accelerometer to record the vibration ... but I don't know yet how to attribute structure borne vibration being caused by noise.
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The problem is getting a recorder with a microphone sensitive enough for the low volume and low frequency inside the house.
ThIS, this right here is what is waking you up? You can't find a recorder sensitive enough but it wakes you up. whewww. Sweet dreams.
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The problem is getting a recorder with a microphone sensitive enough for the low volume and low frequency inside the house.
ThIS, this right here is what is waking you up? You can't find a recorder sensitive enough but it wakes you up. whewww. Sweet dreams.
Try reading up on infrasonic and low frequency noise.
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Do any of your other neighbors have an issue with this noise?
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whariwharangi... I understand your issue and I can appreciate the fact that you've tried the white noise angle....I've been to a friends house that was near a water treatment facility and he had a very similar issue with the low frequency noise emitted by the pump systems...Drove him crazy. I've camped near some power lines and heard this annoying buxx/hum all night and I would go bonkers if I could never tune it out but luckily we were just camping and I was able to leave that noise behind me.....you on the other hand are stuck with an issue that's obviously driving you bonkers....Smother your neighbors with kindness when you ask for assistance...that's my suggestion...otherwise they might have the shrug shoulder and you will continue to fight your way through this.. Good luck
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While we all try to help people, sometimes you can not change reality. Your best opportunity to fix this problem is through thoughtful and considerate interaction between your neighbors, however given your level of sensitivity, you may have already exhausted that avenue.
It sounds like you want your environment to be different than it is, even though you do not control the elements of that environment, maybe it's time to move to the country. You are offended for having had to pay to live where you are, and are unhappy over what you allege to be "hot tub noise".
I will go back to my original suggestion; have them shut their tubs down from 10 PM to 8 AM to actually see if that is the solution. If you have alienated you neighbors, that's probably never going to happen, so not much is going to change your conditions with our limited ability to help.
It appears you have been dealing with this for a period of time with little result, and you are presenting your case with all of the collected detail to support your position. You mention "not enough proof for court", you have documented sound levels, "as close as I can get", but no place do I find neighborly cooperation. Is that because of your approach or attitude? Certainly they are willing to listen and help you with your issues of concern.
What would happen if they put an air conditioner in, or a generator?
While you say, "I'm not interested in being a nuisance to my neighbors. These machines are causing a nuisance for a lot of people. Theres lots of evidence that there is a problem and it needs to be dealt with." Yet, you seem to have a vendetta that causes you to want to impose your will upon them, as you see yourself as the victim.
Best wishes in seeking a peaceful resolve.
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I don't know a lot about this kind of situation and you seem to have a good knowledge of the subject. Just wondering if there is any possible way to do something to mask the vibration? You said you tried white noise to block out the noise aspect but the vibration kept waking you up. Is there anything that would function like white noise, to take care of vibration? Maybe something that would absorb the vibration??? I have no idea if such a thing exists, but it might be worth looking into.
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I find it hard to believe it's a hot tub sending out this vibration, but then these things can change in pitch and amplitude depending on what they are in contact with. Now... a refrigeration compressor of some kind (window a/c, heat pump, central air....) is quite capable of making the low frequency hum you're complaining of. The compressors in fact sit on rubber bushings to try and block the vibration and even with that it can be heard/felt a fair distance away. And if the bushings are shot it gets pretty loud.
People also tend to turn their a/c units on at night for comfort as they sleep.
I would look for an A/C unit in contact with wood. Maybe a central air unit sitting on a large wood deck.
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I find it hard to believe it's a hot tub sending out this vibration, but then these things can change in pitch and amplitude depending on what they are in contact with. Now... a refrigeration compressor of some kind (window a/c, heat pump, central air....) is quite capable of making the low frequency hum you're complaining of. The compressors in fact sit on rubber bushings to try and block the vibration and even with that it can be heard/felt a fair distance away. And if the bushings are shot it gets pretty loud.
People also tend to turn their a/c units on at night for comfort as they sleep.
I would look for an A/C unit in contact with wood. Maybe a central air unit sitting on a large wood deck.
I recently refurbished an older tub. One of the pumps had a seal that had weeped a small amount of water past the shaft seal and over a short period of time wiped out a motor berring. Though it functioned properly as far as pressure etc...That tub made a very annoying low frequency buzz when it was on. The previous owner never noticed it as it came on slowly and gradually. I could see this tub would annoy any immediate neighbor. I also had the motor bay door off a tub yesterday while it was running and it had a resonating buzz until I finished tightening up the door. So a properly operating tub might not be the issue but there might be a tub remotely close that is need of service.
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I find it hard to believe it's a hot tub sending out this vibration, but then these things can change in pitch and amplitude depending on what they are in contact with. Now... a refrigeration compressor of some kind (window a/c, heat pump, central air....) is quite capable of making the low frequency hum you're complaining of. The compressors in fact sit on rubber bushings to try and block the vibration and even with that it can be heard/felt a fair distance away. And if the bushings are shot it gets pretty loud.
People also tend to turn their a/c units on at night for comfort as they sleep.
I would look for an A/C unit in contact with wood. Maybe a central air unit sitting on a large wood deck.
I haven't updated for a while. I no longer think its being caused by a hot tub. Source appears to be machinery at a medical marijuana grow op in a wood frame house used only to grow weed. -- heat pump, exhaust fans, etc. It took about 5 months of wandering around at night and finally going up to the heat pump to get a recording ... and hearing a lot of other machinery noise. The problem is still trying to prove the source ... but I'm pretty sure that's the cause. Part of the issue is MMAR laws were revoked; the changes are under court challenge and MMAR grows continue to operate under an injunction. Its hard to spend money on the problem knowing the judge in the MMAR case reserved his decision and could make a decision tomorrow (except he reserved his decision 1 May 2015 - no timeliness here). Noise is 120 Hz, 60 Hz and a lot of noise below 20 Hz. There is a hot tub next door to the grow op throwing out 140Hz just to complicate the issue. The hot tub located 300 m away puts out 120 Hz ...
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Thank you for letting us know. I do hope you find a way to get this resolved.