Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: bulmer4nc on June 19, 2004, 09:23:25 am
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Hey All,
Myself and my wife went out for a round of wet testing yesterday afternoon. Tested from the 3 main dealers in the area. We tried 2 Marquis (SA reward and euphoria), 2 Sundance (cameo and optima), Jacuzzi 375 and Hotspring Vista.
We really like the air jets on the Sundance. What are everyone's thoughts on air jets / blowers? I've read and been told a lot about them cooling the water and stuff like that. Wanted to get some other opions too.
I think we're ready to pull the trigger on the Optima... Just wanted see what everyone thought of air first.
Guess the biggest thing is how reliable are the air blower pumps? Do they last as long as the regular pumps?
Thanks,
Ken
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My wife likes the air jets the best. As for temp, who cares!
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I also like the air jets. It gives a totally different type of action. We use them mostly during summer when the water never cools no matter what you do. They are really great when you have a lot of people in the spa.
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Typically the air blower will fail before your water pumps. This is usually due to the check valve failing and allowing water into the air blower.
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We have the blower on our spa, I am neutral toward it, my wife, who's opinion is way more important than mine, loves it. She's also into the aroma thing, which is dispensed thru the air blower system.
If the air blower wears out, no big deal, just have the motor replaced. You can still use the spa without it.
Brewman
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Brewman -
Can you really smell the scents bubbling thru the water? When I wet tested the cameo/optima, the dealer put new lemon scent in but I couldnt smell anything - maybe my nose is getting old!
Thanks
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A blower adds water movement to a tub, but so does a tub with more "water jets". In the end, it's strictly opinion, although a VERY high % of my customers opt to get the blower with the air jets.
To me, an important consideration is how the tub is insulated. If the tub is a "full foam" tub, the blower will be pulling air from outside of the cabinet, therefore (in the cooler months/climates) you WILL have cold air coming in, which is uncomfortable, and cools the water. If you have a "thermal pane" insulated tub the air comes from inside the cabinet... therefore it won't cool the water, and wont be as uncomfortable. Granted, the air inside the cabinet is not as hot as the water itself, but 90 degrees is a lot better than 15 degrees.
Also consider cleanliness and safety. When you turn the blower motor off, water will backflow into the lines. Make certain that there are one way valves to be sure water cannot backflow into the blower motor.
You should also make sure that the blower automatically turns on a couple times a day for 30 seconds or so. This will force this water out of the hoses and back into the tub so it can be filtered and cleaned. If your tub doesn't do this, and you don't use the spa for several days/a week, the water in the hose can get "stagnant" and you'll smell an odor for a couple of minutes when you turn on your blower, and this "old" water is finally pumped back into the tub. (sometimes the reason they put the "scent" into the system at the showrooms before turning the blower on?)
Z
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dazedandconfused
Lemon is the weakest scent that SD offers (except maybe apple). Lavender is the strongest I've experienced so far and lasts a long time. Some of the scents you can hardly notice even when new, while others work very well. I'm still experimenting.
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I agree with Tony that the Lavender is the most powerful. And like Brewman, my wife loves it and that is what matters most, for if she is happy, so is daddy ;).
Truly though, you are in NC or thereabouts, so the temps don't get that chilly. Here in Ottawa, it can get a little colder but hey I agree, so what. Bought my Optima for several reasons and one of them was the blower.
Most of the issues raised about cleanliness are covered with the Sundance line given that the tub is programmed to flush once per day at midnight for two minutes and is not user programmable which means that you cannot over ride it. It will activate Pump no. 2 and the blower to circulate any water in the plumbing. After that Pump no. 1 will kick on for one minute.
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To me, an important consideration is how the tub is insulated. If the tub is a "full foam" tub, the blower will be pulling air from outside of the cabinet, therefore (in the cooler months/climates) you WILL have cold air coming in, which is uncomfortable, and cools the water. If you have a "thermal pane" insulated tub the air comes from inside the cabinet... therefore it won't cool the water, and wont be as uncomfortable. Granted, the air inside the cabinet is not as hot as the water itself, but 90 degrees is a lot better than 15 degrees.
??? and where does the air come from that replaces the "90 degree" air from inside the cabinet... the "15 degree" air no?
The blown air doesn't get heated in either case.
Sounds to me like it doesn't make a difference.
Using the above example you either pull outside air directly or suck outside air into the cabinet before blowing it. Either way you are cooling down your water; granted, one way may be more uncomfortable than the other.
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I agree with Tony that the Lavender is the most powerful.
For those of you who have the Sundance Aromatherapy system, describe for me what the container that you drop the crystals into looks like.
Here is why I ask. On my Dynasty, you unscrew a cap on the top of one side of the tub and drop in the bag of smelly crystals. It goes into a chamber that appears to be an upside down T. If you can imagine this you are dropping the bag into the vertical part of the T and the horizontal part of the T looks like its a main air line heading to the diverter for pump number 2. There is a single screen that prevents the fragarance bag from falling all the way in. However, the bag never goes past the vertical part of the T so it is not in the direct air flow. (unless perhaps you take the cover off?) If they put 2 screens on the horizontal part of the T and allowed the crystals to set directly in the air line, perhaps it would work better? I'll have to recheck the owners manual to see if they recommend keeping the cap open. I'm curious to see if yours is diferent, if I was able to explain myself clearly :)
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wwmcall - The Sundance aromatherapy is similar in approach to what you describe for your Dynasty. You unscrew a main cap and then unscrew a secondary cap underneath which has a seal built in. Inside is a cavity which has the cappacity to hold a sealed container of beads. You can only insert the Sundance aromatherapy container because it is shaped in the same manner and is a perfect fit. The beads never come in contact with the water as the airblowers rush air past the beads on their way to the tub. So this is more or less the same approach.
You raise a good point empolgation. The open space within the thermopane style has only enough air to supply about 1 second of air to the tub. Which must be replaced by outside ambient air in order to feed the demand.
The biggest difference is that on the full foam the intake does not impede air flow as it is set within the cavity of the mechanicals. The mechanical space on the Optima has vents on the top to permit air movement with the rest of the skirting having a 1'' insulation. I am uncertain and perhaps the termopane owners and dealers can clarify this, but I remember a dealer we visited and he used this as a selling feature that warm air for the blower was better than cold air. A quick visit with some basic mathematics and we quickly established and agreed that the capacity of the air blower on that product meant that the warm air in the cavity was gone in just under one second. And therefore like a house that is very drafty, and when air is forced through cracks and cavities or through insulation you get a a gradual breakdown of the effectiveness of said barriers in insulation thereby reducing the effectiveness R value over time. I don't remeber vents on the product we saw. IMHO
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I have the Altimar and I for one love the air jets. I don't know why - just a different sensation - maybe it's a girl thing ;) (you know, bubble baths, champagne...)
That was one of the features that swayed me over HS and now I like the option of using it or not.
As for the aromatherapy - I've been using the lavendar and it works ok - not as intense as I thought it would be, but pleasant...I wouldn't use it as a deciding factor though...
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All this talk about the air basically coming from outside the cabinet is probably true (even though the dealers say it is taken from inside).
My question now is this: Is this not also true for the air that is added to the regular jets? The dealers have told me it's a valve that opens up at the pump itself to allow air to mix with the water. If this is cold air, then wouldn't this 'cool' down the water as much or even more than the small air jets? It seems like lots of air gets added to the water stream when you turn it up to get more action in the tub.
Ken
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My question now is this: Is this not also true for the air that is added to the regular jets?
The air has to come from somewhere, no tub has a hot air storage tank whether it's full foam or thermopane.
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Oops, not true on a HotSpring, and some others: the air injected into the water through the jets is a much smaller volume of air than a blower system. As such, it can be drawn from the cabinet on some spas, and since the jet pumps are running at that time, the heat they put off is directed into the jet air intake system.
HotSpring designed a pump shroud to do the dual purpose of cooling the motors better, and recycling the heat from the jet pump motors into the water via the air system.
(http://www.hotspring.com/Built/gifs/wavemaster_pump.gif)
BTW HotSpring has never put blowers on its tubs in 27 years. I know some people like them as evidenced by the posts above, but in my experience both selling and repairing other brands, when the blowers break, very few people want to pay a dime to replace or repair them - especially if they have a good jet system.
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When the service tech was over this past weekend (small glitch with the cover lifter) I asked him about this question of where the air intake is for the air blower and if it was different for the jets. He described exactly what you described Chas. The intake for the air in the jets is within the pump itself. It requires about a 10th of the volume needed for the air blower system. I would tend to agre that the heat as a secondary source for the air in the jets would make it warmer.
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When the service tech was over this past weekend... He described exactly what you described Chas.
You obviously have an exceptionally wise service tech... ;)
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When in doubt always go to the expert source Chas. In all matters except the hot tub that is my wife, the hot tub expert (s) that's TJ the service manager for my dealer and of course the many professionals on this board :)
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***and where does the air come from that replaces the "90 degree" air from inside the cabinet... the "15 degree" air no? The blown air doesn't get heated in either case***
Of course the air from outside of the cabinet eventually ends up inside... it's not "sealed", but the blower takes a LOT longer than 1 second as someone suggested to use up all of the warm air within the cabinet. (certainly you MUST be joking!)
I definitely agree that HS has one of the best systems for this I've seen on that type of spa... HS has one of the best engineered tubs on the market.
I can run a thermospa for 30 minutes, then remove a panel, and the inside air is a LOT warmer than the outside air! I'm guessing it's still well over 70 degrees! (I'm going to test this with a thermometer)
As far as someone saying the blown air doesn't get heated, it may not get heated "directly", but with a thermopane tub the pumps, heater and blower all constantly create heat, (as shown in Chas diagram) and it warms the air inside of the cabinet.
Keep in mind as well, that the heater is heating the water, and the 103 degree water temperature also aids in warming this air, before it enters the blower.
Z