Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: rosewoodsteel on December 02, 2013, 04:42:05 pm
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Would you say the rule of thumb is that dealers sell spas for around 80% of the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (give or take)?
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Depends on their margin requirements and your negotiating skill. You will likely pay a couple grand or more over their cost. If you could just do that. Make them an offer over their cost. Then try and figure out their cost.....tough one. Have em show you their invoice from the manufacturer. If you could find a wet model you like. or an unwrapped one that the dealer needs to push at year end.
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No other thoughts on MSRP and actual cost for a SPA?
What is the least amount off of the MSRP that you would sell a quality Spa for, Say a Sundance Maxus?
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No other thoughts on MSRP and actual cost for a SPA?
What is the least amount off of the MSRP that you would sell a quality Spa for, Say a Sundance Maxus?
Ignore MSRP. It may or may not mean anything. It may or may not be related to cost.
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So, how does a consumer know where his starting point is when there is no constant? For that matter, how do dealers price tubs? Do they just grab a price from the thin air and charge folks that price?
I know we have a lot of dealers here that could chime in on this. Bueller?
Bueller?
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A dealer with high overheads will sell for more than a dealer with low overheads. Things like shipping costs, inventory, staff and other things determine where the dealer has to be over cost. I am sure the manufacturers make their recommendations to the dealers but I would bet none of them use it.
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Being at the Seahawks game on Monday and paying 8 bucks for a plastic cup of beer ::) I wonder what the stadiums cost on a keg is. That's some profit there!!
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So, how does a consumer know where his starting point is when there is no constant? For that matter, how do dealers price tubs? Do they just grab a price from the thin air and charge folks that price?
I know we have a lot of dealers here that could chime in on this. Bueller?
Bueller?
I price tubs the same way I price everything else. There are certain fixed costs I need to cover, be it commisions, rent, insurances, salaries, shipping, utilities and my own salary. Plus you need to take into affect that we are covering these tubs for 5 years in the field at very little compensation from the factories. When I add that all in that gives me an idea of what I need to make on the tub to stay in business. Then I add something to that to actually make a profit. Some popular tubs I get close to MSRP others I sell way under MSRP. I get as much for my tubs as the market let's me. In my area I compete with Hot Springs, Sundance, Jacuzzi, Hydropool and Master so because of the choices afforded to the consumer we half to be competitive. Shop multiple brands that should give you an idea of what quality tubs go for in your area. Looks like you are looking at Sundance so visit a Jacuzzi, Marquis, Hot Springs, Dimension dealers to get an idea what the same size tub is going for. There must be one of those brands in your area
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Being at the Seahawks game on Monday and paying 8 bucks for a plastic cup of beer ::) I wonder what the stadiums cost on a keg is. That's some profit there!!
I'm a Patriots season ticket holder and the noise that stadium generates makes Gillette stadium seem like you are in a library. One of the things I want to do is attend a game out there at some point
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Jeez...you guys are cheap. I pay $12, and it's a paper cup. Prolly going up next year, in the new stadium.
Being at the Seahawks game on Monday and paying 8 bucks for a plastic cup of beer ::) I wonder what the stadiums cost on a keg is. That's some profit there!!
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Being at the Seahawks game on Monday and paying 8 bucks for a plastic cup of beer ::) I wonder what the stadiums cost on a keg is. That's some profit there!!
I'm a Patriots season ticket holder and the noise that stadium generates makes Gillette stadium seem like you are in a library. One of the things I want to do is attend a game out there at some point
Yeah it's pretty awesome! My FIL has season tickets so I have been to quite a few games.. Can't wait for the playoffs ;)
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Ok, I see that at least a few dealers care to address this without going into their night club routines. (By the way, don't quit your day jobs. :)).
Let's change pace a bit. I understand a dealer's need to cover their overhead and maintain a profit margin. Fair enough.
But what about a factory that doesn't have dealer representation in an area. How much over their MSRP should they charge a customer for an internet sale?
Thanks again for your input.
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Ok, I see that at least a few dealers care to address this without going into their night club routines. (By the way, don't quit your day jobs. :)).
Let's change pace a bit. I understand a dealer's need to cover their overhead and maintain a profit margin. Fair enough.
But what about a factory that doesn't have dealer representation in an area. How much over their MSRP should they charge a customer for an internet sale?
Thanks again for your input.
They will probably charge you full msrp. Problem with doing this is you will probably okay too much then what happens if there are problems under warranty? Who fixes the tub? What brands are local to you?
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Correction-
How much (percent wise) UNDER their MSRP should they charge a customer for an internet sale?
(If we could just focus on price here. I understand the warranty / repair / customer services problems associated with an internet sale.)
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Not sure you are going to get what you are digging for.. Like Tman122 said it can vary across the board. I had a guy come in today looking for an igniter for his pellet stove. Our cost from the mnfg with shipping is 27 dollars, the price for the igniter is 40 bucks plus tax. He said he found one on line for 30. He said if I match the internet price and he would buy it. WTF should we only make 3 dollars on a part that cost us 27? I didn't do it and he left.. I don't own the business, but we also have over 60 employees that need to get paid. Granted that part is a drop in the bucket to the company, but if we ran everything like that we wouldn't be around long and they have been around for over 40 years. Spa's are maybe 10% of the overall business and sure we could sell them at a lesser markup but why? You can't have all the other of our divisions carrying the spa dept. just to sell spa's.
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Correction-
How much (percent wise) UNDER their MSRP should they charge a customer for an internet sale?
(If we could just focus on price here. I understand the warranty / repair / customer services problems associated with an internet sale.)
OK here, this isn't what you are looking for and you won't get what your looking for. If an online manufacturer tells you there spa is worth 12,000 bucks then they made that number up to make you feel like your getting a good deal when you pay 6,000 bucks. even though the tub is only worth 3,000 bucks.
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TMan hit the nail on the head. If you go on certain websites they have spas with MSRP's of over 12k but sell them for 4K. Guess what it's probably not worth 2K. Stick to a reputable brand. What online brand are you currently looking at?
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The very few online spa dealers I've known don't work off a % mark-up, but off a set price mark up. e.g. every spa they sell, regardless of their cost, they add on $700 (an arbitrary number I just made up)
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Rosewood, we understand you are looking to get the "best price", but even then, will you be able to recognize it, and will you buy? Like the $40 part illustrated by JJ, or will you too walk out the door.
We all want to sell spas, and believe it or not, people walk in all the time wanting to buy spas, but not everyone buys while they are there. It truly is a game of numbers. First there is the wholesale cost paid to the manufacturer, and then there is the truck that brings it to the dealer that varies by distance and direction with cost dictated by the price of fuel.
Once we get it, we prep it, get the steps we paid for, the cover we paid for, the cover lifter we paid for, the chemicals we paid for, and we load it on the equipment we paid for, and send it out to you with able bodied people who are capable in getting the tub where it has to go, and yes we pay them too.
Everybody thinks the salesman gets paid, and yes he does, while we also pay all of our help that serve the needs of our customers. Unfortunately, sometimes things require additional trips that we pay for, and then there is the customers lack of understanding how the systems work and we go out to investigate customer issues that result from a lack of understanding why the heat doesn’t work when the spa is in economy, but we do that with a smile, a handshake, even though it was not a warranty problem, but a customer service issue.
Then you get back to the store where we have to pay our bills for maintenance, repairs, utilities, rent, insurance, et al, etc.
While your question is focused on price, and we all do that when we buy cars, etc., can I suggest that you look the people in the eye, develop a relationship that you feel is trustworthy, and buy with the faith and confidence the dealer needs your business, as much as you will need him again and again in the future for needs you will have.
If you are curious about the profit margin, and are impressed with the potential of $2,000, $3,500 or even $4,000 and you see that as excessive profit, OPEN A STORE and reap the rewards. ;)
But keep this in mind, the customer can always walk away, as he did with JJ over a $40 part he could get for $30 on the internet. Think for a moment, how much did it cost him in time and fuel to seek out the part and then not get it?
I once had a customer whose spa came off the production line on the 12th of December ready to ship. He was anxious to get it for the family for Christmas, but the "independent" truckers were not traveling east until the holidays are over, because his family is important too. When the customer put on a scene over an issue I had no ability to influence or control, I gladly refunded his money, as I never wanted to deal with his personality again, not even at twice MSRP.
Once you make your decision, you are going to enjoy a hot water soak, and you will begin to realize, you are making something hard, that should be easy.
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Clover, Dr. Spa, HotTubGuy and Tman,
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy lives to address my post.
I guess I haven't made myself clear and for that, I apologize.
I understand that you guys have to pay your employees, pay your rent/mortgage, stock your shelves, provide customer service and make a profit that makes it all worthwhile. You have a lot on your plate, and I appreciate that.
My question was meant to be more about the manufacturer and his profit , not the dealer. (Looking back, I see that I did not express this well, at all.)
Here is the scenario. I am interested in a Spa that is made by a major manufacturer which does not have a dealer in my area. (Who this manufacturer is, is inconsequential.) This is not a Costco, Amazon, Sam's Club type of low quality POS. They have given me an MSRP and a price which is approximately 15% less than their "quoted" MSRP. The reduced price is what I would pay for this tub. (On paper, their warranty is good. I would, however, have to deal with their contracted service people in my area when I have any warranty issues. For the sake of this discussion, let's not get into the warranty and service issues relating to this type of deal, at this point, just their "discounted" price.)
15% does not seem like a big reduction in price, given that MSRP, to me, has always been a “straw man”, meant to be knocked down and given that this manufacturer, in essence, has cut out the dealer (you guys) and the dealer's margin of profit. Please note that they do not have a dealer in my area, so they are not actually cutting out their dealer to make a sale.
At any rate, I hope I explained myself a bit more. This is why I had my initial question about the MSRP.
Your comments are appreciated
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In my experience, this is about right...actually better than right. Most times, in these situations, the manufacturer will sell it at MSRP. Believe me, the manufacturer is FAR MORE concerned about not pissing off, or irritating their dealers, that sell THOUSANDS of their product, then they are with making a sale directly to you. Whether there's a dealer in your area, or half way to the moon, it makes NO difference.
If there's even a 0.000000001% chance a manufacturer could lose a dealer for selling you a product directly, they wont sell you you...or will make it so expensive to you their dealers wont care.
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I doubt there will be little if any haggling with a mfg. either beyond what they are giving you. That being said any "major" mfg. that would sell a spa that way, really isn't a "major" mfg. I could be wrong as I don't know what "you" would consider a major mfg. Good luck with that!
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Your 2nd post in the thread mentioned a Sundance spa. I cannot imagine they don't have a dealer that can sell to you. I cannot imagine any major manufacturer not having a dealer that can sell to you. Curious where you live and what brands are close enough to sell to you and service your spa. We deliver 2 to 3 hours away from warehouse.
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I would think you could do better than 15% off MSRP at your closest same brand dealer. Ask em. Go get it yourself and find a local service guy.
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If you say who the manufacturer is and the price you will get answers to whether or not you are paying too much
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Tell my which HotSpring you would like, and I'll send you an exact price. HOWEVER, today is the final day to order a spa from the factory for this year (12/6/13), so it would have to be on hand.
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Thank you, Chas. Unfortunately, I just saw your post a few minutes ago. I appreciate the thought.
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MSRP is always just some bs number. Factoring MSRP into a decision is an exercise in futility.
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If the manufacturer offer you a factory direct pricing , you would at least get 35% deduction.
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If the manufacturer offer you a factory direct pricing , you would at least get 35% deduction.
Said the manufacturer that doesn't have a dealer network. MSRP is manufacturers suggested retail price. A manufacturer can suggest any retail price to make their customers think that they are getting a good deal.
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Of course he can but even if he does have a protected dealer network , if theres no dealer in his area I dont see any reasons why he would not cut 35 % from that msrp .
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Vortex,
On average, (percent wise) how much of a mark up do you think most dealers have for a spa?
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend .
Hope this help
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Getting off topic here. However, the cheaper, smaller swim spas would cost 10-12 to build. The higher end ones are going to cost much more.
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I have the price list for hot spring , master spa , vortex spas , catalina spas and they are under 10 k .. catalina is nearly 6500 $
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When it come to swim spas , I guess they get more margin because of the shipping cost and i was refeering to a standard 15 feet long swim spa not a dual zone or 20 feet long swim spa.
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I have the price list for hot spring , master spa , vortex spas , catalina spas and they are under 10 k .. catalina is nearly 6500 $
Hot spring doesn't make a swim spa.
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
Why are you so wrapped around what and how much a dealer marks up his spas to make a living, and pay his bills what difference does it really make? It is what it is for any particular dealer. To try and guess is a waste of time.. A dealer will only go so low on a spa, he knows what his margin is. So again not sure what you are trying to accomplish here?
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
None of Vortex's statement is true. Dealers work on all kinds of different margins. I am sure Vortex Spas makes about the same margins as any other manufacturer. They likely cheapin up the manufacturing process to make that happen. The more a dealer buys the bigger his margins can get. There are dealers that only make 10%
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
Why are you so wrapped around what and how much a dealer marks up his spas to make a living, and pay his bills what difference does it really make? It is what it is for any particular dealer. To try and guess is a waste of time.. A dealer will only go so low on a spa, he knows what his margin is. So again not sure what you are trying to accomplish here?
Sorry if I struck a raw nerve there, Jim.
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The question was how much we can cut from the actual sale price if theres no dealer involved wich I answered , Vortex also own a quite large dealer network for other brands we sell and this is why I was able to provide the right number . Any dealer who operate a store with employees will need that 35 % margin and thats fine. Some custumer will prefeer to pay more to have that local dealer and some will prefeer to go whithout a dealer and save that money for somethin else and we have to respect this choice .
Vortex doesnt have any dealer in the Usa or canada because we go online , and you can be sure that we dont make 35 % margin on a 12,995 $ swim spa that include a delivery and we are only using high end product and material but guess what we dont have to pay any rent , any employees etc so at the end custumer is saving money and the manufacture is controlling the product and making as much money as if they would have a dealer network.
We are always arguing with this old mentality of dealer network owner wich you seems to be part of wich i have alot of respect for because i was actually a dealer before starting to work for Vortex but the % of custumer who are willing to save money by cutting the dealer is growing year after year and as a business you have to consider that .
So yeah rosewood , for a regular hot tub its nearly 35 % and they need that margin to survive , for swim spa its something around 50 % of average wich I think is too much but guess what this is probably why we are selling so many right now so I am not complaining :) .
You can send me a private message for further questions , I think it will be better that way :)
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The question was how much we can cut from the actual sale price if theres no dealer involved wich I answered , Vortex also own a quite large dealer network for other brands we sell and this is why I was able to provide the right number . Any dealer who operate a store with employees will need that 35 % margin and thats fine. Some custumer will prefeer to pay more to have that local dealer and some will prefeer to go whithout a dealer and save that money for somethin else and we have to respect this choice .
Vortex doesnt have any dealer in the Usa or canada because we go online , and you can be sure that we dont make 35 % margin on a 12,995 $ swim spa that include a delivery and we are only using high end product and material but guess what we dont have to pay any rent , any employees etc so at the end custumer is saving money and the manufacture is controlling the product and making as much money as if they would have a dealer network.
We are always arguing with this old mentality of dealer network owner wich you seems to be part of wich i have alot of respect for because i was actually a dealer before starting to work for Vortex but the % of custumer who are willing to save money by cutting the dealer is growing year after year and as a business you have to consider that .
So yeah rosewood , for a regular hot tub its nearly 35 % and they need that margin to survive , for swim spa its something around 50 % of average wich I think is too much but guess what this is probably why we are selling so many right now so I am not complaining :) .
You can send me a private message for further questions , I think it will be better that way :)
You are only guessing and assuming what any particular dealers mark up is. To rosewoodsteel it only matters to the dealers he is shopping, that being said I am not sure he is shopping nor I don't think he has mentioned which brands he is shopping.
And rosewoodsteel, no you did not strike a nerve! I am just curious why you are so worried and curious as well to what a dealers mark up might be? If your looking to go in with guns loaded and to get the best deal you can again it makes no difference they will again only go so low.
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I think he is just asking himself if he should buy online or go for a local dealer. Both ways are good and at the end its the custumer descision.
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You are right Vortex a customer should decide to buy online or from a dealer. If the compromises you make buying online are not that important to a customer then by all means. There are a heck of a lot of things that are great for buying online and I personally wouldn't buy them any other way. But Hot Tubs along with cars, 4 wheelers, motorcycles, houses, most cloths and a long list of other things I would never consider buying online. Like Brill himself says, if your just looking for hot water and bubbles and you can fix it yourself then by all means.
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So if I get you right , let say that you could have a branded jacuzzi hot tub online for 6,000 $ or the same jacuzzi for 8,500 $ in your local dealer... you would pay 8500 $ from your local dealer ?
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
Why are you so wrapped around what and how much a dealer marks up his spas to make a living, and pay his bills what difference does it really make? It is what it is for any particular dealer. To try and guess is a waste of time.. A dealer will only go so low on a spa, he knows what his margin is. So again not sure what you are trying to accomplish here?
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Dealer work on a 35 % minimum margin up to 55 % and even 65 % on swim spas.
If the manufactuer price is 4000 $ for a regular tub , the distributor will make 10 % and dealer usually make 35 % .
so you are ending up paying : 4000/.90% = 4444 $ / .65 % = 6836 $ ( you have to add shipping , accessories , storage etc )
Swim spa usually cost 8-10 k to build depending if they use a galvanised steel frame or wood frame wich I would not recommend . Hope this help
So the price of a regular spa is inflated approximately 45% if it is purchased from a dealer? Damn.
Jim,
It is no secret that when you are a seller, you want the most for whatever it is you are selling. When you are a buyer, you want to get the best deal. I am sure you can respect that.
In my opinion, it is the job of a dealer to get as much money out of a customer as he possibly can. If an uninformed buyer happens by, the customer will probably pay a premium. He, in fact, may be applying copious amounts of hemorrhoidial ointment to his drearier the following morning (Nothing hurts quite as much as finding out you paid a lot more for a high dollar item than you needed to).
That said, it is the job of an educated consumer to get the best possible deal he can for an item. You see, Jim, although I empathize with your need to pay bills (and I sincerely do), I need to take care of my family and pay my bills, as well.
In this particular case, I just wanted to know if a manufacturer was offering me a dealer price for an internet deal. A dealer price, even though he doesn’t have the burden of your overhead, or have to pay (thank you Vortex), a 10% distributer fee, or have to directly support warranty issues, as you do.
As I have stated, the manufacturer I am dealing with, does not have a dealership in my area. I will be taking a risk at having a third party respond to any warranty issues. I will have to transport the spa from the street to my backyard, do the electrical hook up and make sure it is operating properly. Because of this, I EXPECT to be getting a very good price. But, because hot tub prices are so strictly guarded, I would have to contact the freekin “Wiki Leak” guy to get an ideal of what a reasonable price is.
Because professionals, like yourself, are a part of this forum, I thought this would be the good place to post my questions and get a few questions answered. I certainly mean no disrespect to you or anyone else here (unless, of course, they show me disrespect).
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If you do enough and the right searches you can see what people have paid for their spa's. that should give you a good indication of what you will have to or not have to pay. I get that people are looking for deals, I get that purchase's on the internet are going to be less, I also get you have a family to look out for, so do I. And FWIW I don't own the company, I am a salesman/purchaser/service mngr/problem solver. I also know our cost. If you tell us what you are looking at, be it Jacuzzi, H,springs Marquis what ever, we will tell you if it's a decent deal or not for the most part.. The guy that just bought a J-345 at 8 grand, he got a very good deal. I could tell you the mfg. cost but then I would have to kill you. But he got a decent deal..
If you don't want to let us know what you are looking at then that's fine, but it's not going to hurt either..
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You are missing a factor in this equation, which is the value of the dealer, and the fact that he is there for his customers "when they need him", thus the reason he is in business. Hopefully, he will be there when his customers need him, so, he has to earn more than the cost of his expenses that go up every day. Imagine that.
You can certainly choose to buy online, or direct, and you acknowledge you have bypassed the dealer. What you don't get in the factory direct price is what a dealer does for his customer now, and in the future.
I would applaud you for wanting to be frugal to get the most out of the $ you spend, but I can’t imagine you bargaining the price of a meal at a restaurant, where I hope you also pay extra to tip.
I would suggest banking your savings for future needs. Today, I have had 7 calls, even though we are closed, for desperation advice over what to do with when something goes wrong. Yes, we take care of our customers, but you are not a customer.
You would be an orphan looking for service, which at times can be frustrating. I would try to find you someone willing to assume the responsibility of touching your spa, but it would not be us. You see, we would have no “relationship” with you.
BTW, of the 7 calls, 5 were fixed for free on the phone, and the other 2 will be addressed first thing in the morning, but it is 16° out tonight, so we took ceramic heaters out to both customers. THAT is what we dealers call service, but that is because customers are like family to most of us. It appears you do not feel the need for service, nor do you appreciate the need for a relationship to call upon when needed for advice.
It appears saving your money is more important to you than good, long term relationships.
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Please let me repeat this one more time. The manufacturer with the hot tub that I am interested in DOES NOT have a dealer in my area. If there was a nearby dealer, I would be there. Unfortunately, there isn't. I maintained my old hot tub for years, as I have maintained my 25 year old truck, 18 year old Honda and 17 year old Chrysler, and everything else in my home. I have all the respect in the world for service people. They work their tails off and have un godly hours. I tip my hats to you, Clover and everyone else who works hard for a living. Regarding restaurant meals, I believe we are talking apples and oranges here, as there are many choices in the market place and all food service businesses post their prices for all to see. My wife was a waitress for many years, so yes, I tip well when we go out to eat. By the way, I believe there is a vast difference between being frugal and spending your money wisely. -Wish you all a good night. Tomorrow morning comes early.
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Jim,
Thank you for your advice. I have been doing a number of searches and have also participated in hot tub forums (that hasn't been working out too well :) ). At any rate, I appreciate everything I have learned here. Thanks.
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So if I get you right , let say that you could have a branded jacuzzi hot tub online for 6,000 $ or the same jacuzzi for 8,500 $ in your local dealer... you would pay 8500 $ from your local dealer ?
I don't like Jacuzzi but my purchasing prowess would not have 2500 dollars difference between online and at the store. But I would pay more to sit in it and see if it was right for me. And I would pay more to have it delivered and set up. I also would pay more for the warranty available from a dealer. None of those things do you get online. I know you will tell me you get the same service, you don't so don't bother.
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You did not answered the questions and the price difference would be that much.
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I don't like.....But I would pay more to sit in it and see if it was right for me. And.....pay more to have it delivered and set up.....also would pay more for the warranty available from a dealer.....
Tman, when you state your opinion of what you like or don't like, it is based upon what you know and don't know, which in this case leaves the spa shopper at a disadvantage. While we all want to get the most for the money we spend, some look to shop and learn from all of the resources available, like this website, to make their decisions. That is certainly understandable.
However, based upon what the shopper knows, they will "shop around" to become informed by a variety of opinions, and sit in everybody else’s spa free for nothing until they feel determined “they are all alike".
Then they save the money to enter uncharted territory to learn about delivery, set up, and reading the manufactures hand book that tells them where the equipment is, and what is not covered by the warranty. This, as you have learned, is a learning experience.
As for warranty, shoppers never anticipate the need to arise, and only imagine that it will be covered, until again they deal with the situation in what we will call a learning experience. These experiences are filled with frustration that we commonly see addressed here on the forum.
Because the savings of let's say $2,500 in this discussion being the primary focus, we would all want to save that kind of money. But this is where I get confused, is the shopper trying to find out what we make on a sale in hopes of making it less when he buys, or is he trying to convince himself that buying direct form Ching-Ling Direct, or the Cost not so much warehouse, that they are really on to a better way to get into hot water cheaper. This again will be a learning experience.
To some level, we are all self sufficient, and then we need help. I applaud those who are able to fend for themselves, in spite of the cost to others they do not even care about, for their own self serving interests. I suppose we have all done this sometime in our life, but many of us consider these to be lessons learned.
To some, we have a value, and those would be our customers, to others, we don't have value and that is what they want to take out of the price. This too is a learning experience.
I admire adventuresome, rugged, individualists that thrive in the Alaska wilderness, but I have no interest in being a survivalist in my suburban setting. In my younger years, many decades ago, I once changed my own oil to save the money, and because “I felt” I could do it myself, only to cross thread the drain plug going back in. Everything that happened after that was a learning experience for me.
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quote]
.....I applaud those who are able to fend for themselves, in spite of the cost to others they do not even care about, for their own self serving interests... [/quote]
Sorry Clover, I believe I understood you until I got to your line above.
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Rosewood, unless you were to accept my invitation in my first post on this subject, you remain oblivious to the cost of the dealer to accommodate people walking in the door and spending his time to learn. While we respect all shoppers, only the buyers become customers that support our business expenses, all others pay nothing and benefit from the experience.
I am sorry if you take my statement to be harsh, but it is true. This is part of our cost in doing business, but to the shopper, it was there before he walked in, and it was there when he left, so he is not responsible to "contribute" to the cost of overhead that has been provided for his shopping experience. He does not feel it cost anyone anything for him to enter and look around. That is part of the oblivion.
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Understood.
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Keeping 4-6 spas filled and running so that a knowledgeable salesperson can guide them through the test soak process is another huge service offered by a dealer for free. Everyone stresses the test soak on here.
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I don't like.....But I would pay more to sit in it and see if it was right for me. And.....pay more to have it delivered and set up.....also would pay more for the warranty available from a dealer.....
Tman, when you state your opinion of what you like or don't like, it is based upon what you know and don't know, which in this case leaves the spa shopper at a disadvantage. While we all want to get the most for the money we spend, some look to shop and learn from all of the resources available, like this website, to make their decisions. That is certainly understandable.
However, based upon what the shopper knows, they will "shop around" to become informed by a variety of opinions, and sit in everybody else’s spa free for nothing until they feel determined “they are all alike".
Then they save the money to enter uncharted territory to learn about delivery, set up, and reading the manufactures hand book that tells them where the equipment is, and what is not covered by the warranty. This, as you have learned, is a learning experience.
As for warranty, shoppers never anticipate the need to arise, and only imagine that it will be covered, until again they deal with the situation in what we will call a learning experience. These experiences are filled with frustration that we commonly see addressed here on the forum.
Because the savings of let's say $2,500 in this discussion being the primary focus, we would all want to save that kind of money. But this is where I get confused, is the shopper trying to find out what we make on a sale in hopes of making it less when he buys, or is he trying to convince himself that buying direct form Ching-Ling Direct, or the Cost not so much warehouse, that they are really on to a better way to get into hot water cheaper. This again will be a learning experience.
To some level, we are all self sufficient, and then we need help. I applaud those who are able to fend for themselves, in spite of the cost to others they do not even care about, for their own self serving interests. I suppose we have all done this sometime in our life, but many of us consider these to be lessons learned.
To some, we have a value, and those would be our customers, to others, we don't have value and that is what they want to take out of the price. This too is a learning experience.
I admire adventuresome, rugged, individualists that thrive in the Alaska wilderness, but I have no interest in being a survivalist in my suburban setting. In my younger years, many decades ago, I once changed my own oil to save the money, and because “I felt” I could do it myself, only to cross thread the drain plug going back in. Everything that happened after that was a learning experience for me.
Thats good stuff. We did a Value Stream Map on an oil change (Google Value Stream Map) And it costs 50% less to have it done at an 39.95 oil change place than it does to do it yourself. Assuming you put a value to your time. And we like to double the value of our time because we could of been doing something else.
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You did not answered the questions and the price difference would be that much.
I told you what I would be willing to pay for.
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I don't like.....But I would pay more to sit in it and see if it was right for me. And.....pay more to have it delivered and set up.....also would pay more for the warranty available from a dealer.....
Tman, when you state your opinion of what you like or don't like, it is based upon what you know and don't know, which in this case leaves the spa shopper at a disadvantage. While we all want to get the most for the money we spend, some look to shop and learn from all of the resources available, like this website, to make their decisions. That is certainly understandable.
However, based upon what the shopper knows, they will "shop around" to become informed by a variety of opinions, and sit in everybody else’s spa free for nothing until they feel determined “they are all alike".
Then they save the money to enter uncharted territory to learn about delivery, set up, and reading the manufactures hand book that tells them where the equipment is, and what is not covered by the warranty. This, as you have learned, is a learning experience.
As for warranty, shoppers never anticipate the need to arise, and only imagine that it will be covered, until again they deal with the situation in what we will call a learning experience. These experiences are filled with frustration that we commonly see addressed here on the forum.
Because the savings of let's say $2,500 in this discussion being the primary focus, we would all want to save that kind of money. But this is where I get confused, is the shopper trying to find out what we make on a sale in hopes of making it less when he buys, or is he trying to convince himself that buying direct form Ching-Ling Direct, or the Cost not so much warehouse, that they are really on to a better way to get into hot water cheaper. This again will be a learning experience.
To some level, we are all self sufficient, and then we need help. I applaud those who are able to fend for themselves, in spite of the cost to others they do not even care about, for their own self serving interests. I suppose we have all done this sometime in our life, but many of us consider these to be lessons learned.
To some, we have a value, and those would be our customers, to others, we don't have value and that is what they want to take out of the price. This too is a learning experience.
I admire adventuresome, rugged, individualists that thrive in the Alaska wilderness, but I have no interest in being a survivalist in my suburban setting. In my younger years, many decades ago, I once changed my own oil to save the money, and because “I felt” I could do it myself, only to cross thread the drain plug going back in. Everything that happened after that was a learning experience for me.
Thats good stuff. We did a Value Stream Map on an oil change (Google Value Stream Map) And it costs 50% less to have it done at an 39.95 oil change place than it does to do it yourself. Assuming you put a value to your time. And we like to double the value of our time because we could of been doing something else.
Sorry, I can’t buy into this at all. My experience with auto repair shops and oil change places is that I waste more time taking my car to them and then waiting (and waiting and waiting), than it takes me to do the actual work myself. And this doesn’t even take into account the time I would miss from my job for these service appointments. Regarding oil changes, I buy the oil I want to use and use top of the line filters (not some generic brand). I purchase in bulk and have the supplies in my garage. It takes just a few minutes to change.
Talking about this reminds me of an old friend of mine who took her new car to a “Jiffy Lube” type place, many years ago, for an oil change. After picking up her car and driving a few miles, her engine locked up. It seems the pimply faced kid doing the work, neglected to secure the oil pan plug and/or didn’t snug up the filter. My friend ended up settling for an engine rebuild from them (against my advice, I might add).
Regarding charging for your “own” time.. Really? I wish someone would send me a check for my time off (perhaps with the Dems in office… ).
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Rosewood, this is taking us off subject, but I think you’re missing the point. Consider for a moment the “value” of your time, and then factor that cost to “what” you do with your time. Whether you are changing your oil, or shopping for a spa, you are using your time.
Tman is only suggesting, if you include the “value” of your time into the equation of what you do, you are creating a cost analysis. This is one step in reaching the answer of what it cost YOU to do something. You’re not going to get a check, nor will you get your value back, but that is presumably what it cost you to do something theoretically.
The example used for a $40 oil change, is to say if you did it yourself, the cost of materials, the value of your time for preparation, application, and clean up, putting everything away which includes “your time”, it would take longer then a drive through oil change that would take 20 minutes for $40.
Consider the cost of the 5 quarts, the filter, and the time it takes to check all of the other points of service, then clean up everything, and total the cost, or value, of your time, you are more than twice the cost of the $40. It is just a theory.
As for your friend’s calamity, the “dealer” paid for the repairs because he touched it. Now, you may better understand why a Hot Tub Dealer would not want to touch a product he is not familiar with that was purchased elsewhere by an orphan. Based upon your response, it would appear you would not be satisfied with repairs, as you may demand it be replaced instead.
The time we spend on the decisions we make, is considered diligence, and you sir, are diligent in what you do. While I do not wish to demean this quality, you seem to be more focused on the portion of your Hot Tub purchase that profits the dealer, and you feel the need to cut it out of the equation and keep it in your pocket. Of course, this is your prerogative, but is it wise.
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Clover,
Actually, I'll say it again, the tub I want can not be supplied by a local dealer. My intention was not to cut out the local dealer. I want this particular tub. The savings are an ancillary benifit.
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I understood that. So there are no local dealers with a viable product that you would consider, because you like what you found elsewhere. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we are wasting time talking about this. You should be sitting in that tub tonight with your significant other, looking at the full moon as the snow falls, with maybe a glass of wine. Get it on order, use and enjoy
No decision is a bad decision, it is just the price we pay to make it a good decision. We all wish you the best, it is the Hot Water that is the same in all tubs.
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Rosewood, this is taking us off subject, but I think you’re missing the point. Consider for a moment the “value” of your time, and then factor that cost to “what” you do with your time. Whether you are changing your oil, or shopping for a spa, you are using your time.
Tman is only suggesting, if you include the “value” of your time into the equation of what you do, you are creating a cost analysis. This is one step in reaching the answer of what it cost YOU to do something. You’re not going to get a check, nor will you get your value back, but that is presumably what it cost you to do something theoretically.
The example used for a $40 oil change, is to say if you did it yourself, the cost of materials, the value of your time for preparation, application, and clean up, putting everything away which includes “your time”, it would take longer then a drive through oil change that would take 20 minutes for $40.
Consider the cost of the 5 quarts, the filter, and the time it takes to check all of the other points of service, then clean up everything, and total the cost, or value, of your time, you are more than twice the cost of the $40. It is just a theory.
As for your friend’s calamity, the “dealer” paid for the repairs because he touched it. Now, you may better understand why a Hot Tub Dealer would not want to touch a product he is not familiar with that was purchased elsewhere by an orphan. Based upon your response, it would appear you would not be satisfied with repairs, as you may demand it be replaced instead.
The time we spend on the decisions we make, is considered diligence, and you sir, are diligent in what you do. While I do not wish to demean this quality, you seem to be more focused on the portion of your Hot Tub purchase that profits the dealer, and you feel the need to cut it out of the equation and keep it in your pocket. Of course, this is your prerogative, but is it wise.
So you buy in bulk. Have you considered the interest on your money as the product sits on the shelf? Or the price per square footage to store the product. Have you also considered the time it takes to drive to the store find it bring it to the counter and spend the money your not charging yourself for. Then getting it home and storing it. Inventory is always waste.
You don't have to agree. You'll be wrong if you think you can do it cheaper yourself.
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Tman,
Are you serious?
Have you seen what interest rate your bank is currently paying?
When I say "bulk" I mean I get a case or so of oil. I buy multiple filters on line from Amazon (no waiting in line, here...).
I store everything, quite easily on the shelves I have in my garage. There is no premium on storage space at my house.
But ok, I’ll play this game. If I were to get my oil changed at a “Jiffy Lube”, I would have to drive 7 miles, wait in line to hand over my keys, wait in the waiting room for the oil to be changed, wait in line to pay and then drive 7 miles back home.
If I wanted to do it right, I would take my car to my “dealer” (which is approximately 35 minutes away) and drop the car off. Of course, my wife would have to follow me in her car (2 xs the hours spent, not to mention the gasoline and “wear and tear” on both vehicles.) The following day, both of us would return to pick up my serviced vehicle and then we would drive home.
If I were to do the oil change myself, I would grab a cup of coffee, walk into my garage, jack my car up and change the oil.
In the real world, most of us don’t have an unlimited “bucket” of paid labor hours we can tap into any time we have someone else do maintenance for us. So, I do not agree with the basic premise of the “Oil Change” scenario, as it was presented here. And, since I do not receive payment for work I do around the house, including the service performed on our vehicles, I find it unrealistic to add in an hourly wage for the “actual” cost of this work. In fact, I believe my “do it yourself” oil change is very much cost effective, not only in the money spent, but in time expended.
However, If I were an owner of a business, and perhaps this is where the crux of our differences lie, I could (and would) spend more time at my business, earning money, while someone else was doing work for me. In that case, it would be well worth my while to have someone else take care of my home and automotive maintenance.
To sum it up, for the most part, I enjoy doing my own work and I get a sense of accomplishment from it. And, when I finish doing the work, I can ease my aching muscles, soaking in a hot tub, which is why I have been asking all of you good folks, all of my inane questions.
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How come you haven't bought the tub yet?
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If I wanted to do it right, I would take my car to my “dealer” (which is approximately 35 minutes away) and drop the car off. Of course, my wife would have to follow me in her car (2 xs the hours spent, not to mention the gasoline and “wear and tear” on both vehicles.) The following day, both of us would return to pick up my serviced vehicle and then we would drive home.
If I were to do the oil change myself, I would grab a cup of coffee, walk into my garage, jack my car up and change the oil.
There are ways to skeew it to your favor in words. Are you in sales?
How about doing it on your way home from work and not having to wait in line. And picking up dinner across the street while you wait. And a 29.99 sale.
You forgot to mention a second trip to get rid of your used oil and filter. And the plastic garbage created from the quart oil jugs.
You don't have to buy into it. There are loads of people who don't.
I saved up all the time saved by not changing my own oil and went to the Caribbean.
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I have a couple of 5 gallon containers (in my shed) that I store the used oil in. Twice a year I swing by the recycling place on my way to buy new oil. When it is needed, I strain some of the used oil thru coffee filters and use it as a bar lube for my chain saw.
Most of my commuting is via rail road train, and I don't pass any service places during my commute home.
And no, I am not in sales.
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I saved up all the time saved by not changing my own oil and went to the Caribbean.
[/quote]
You must be pretty darn slow at changing oil. :)
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I saved up all the time saved by not changing my own oil and went to the Caribbean.
You must be pretty darn slow at changing oil. :)
[/quote]
No I bought a Chevy Duramax in 2004 and it has 220,000 miles on it and has needed 44 oil changes so far. Each one takes an hour and a half when you figure in picking up oil, disposing of old oil and cleaning up the mess. That's 66 hours and I value myself at 40 bucks per hour with out doubling it which is cheap (we generally use 60 for a plumber). That's 2640 dollars. Plenty for a trip to the Caribbean.
I know your going to say I need to deduct the time I spent at the oil change place. But I also could double both times because I could of been working or relaxing also.
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Tman,
Perhaps you received a bunch of dividend checks from Jiffy Lube and that's how you financed your vacation? :)
At this point, I think it's safe to say that you and I disagree on this subject.
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I had about 20 of you in the classroom when I did the value stream map on an oil change. There is still a bunch of them that change there own oil. Not because it's cheaper because they want to and enjoy it. I'm OK with that.
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Tman,
You neglected to say how much it cost you for each oil change. I believe the Duramax engine has a capacity of about 10 quarts of oil (damn, what an oil hog). So how much for each oil change were you charged? How long did it take you to drive to your Dealer, wait for the oil change and then drive back to your home?
Also, unless you service center sent you a check for $2640, I hate to break the news to you, but you didn’t receive a penny for having them change your oil. You actually spent a lot of your hard earned money. (And, money is time; the time that you spent earning it.) The $2640 you have referred to is nothing more than an illusion.
It has been an interesting debate, though, and I appreciate your food for thought on this subject. That is all I have to say, as I believe we will end up in the “Beating a Dead Horse” section if we continue. :) Enjoy your day.
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This thread belongs there anyway.
I didn't include the cost of the oil/filter if I were buying it to do it myself and I didn't include the cost of the oil change at the local oil change place. I did this for a reason because I was segregating out the labor and what it is worth. I don't use the dealer. And the oil change place is on my way to the freeway on ramp going home. 2 blocks from my office and across the street from the grocery store I like. It's always waiting for me when I get done shopping and they don't mind me leaving the shopping cart at their place.
Chevrolet recommends 10,000 between changes. The oil company recommends 3000. I choose to do it at 5-6 thousand.
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How come you haven't bought the tub yet?
I just ordered it.
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Great! You should tell us what it is so we can maybe get this thread to 12 pages, and bumped down to the beat a horse section..
Kidding aside, glad you felt confident enough to purchase it..
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Yep, I picked up a ThermoSpa Manhattan. The guy said it was one great tub!
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Yep, I picked up a ThermoSpa Manhattan. The guy said it was one great tub!
Wow what made you choose that? Hopefully you are one of the lucky ones!
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I think Jacuzzi has changed a few things, since they bought them.. Time will tell!
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The guy spends good money and buys a spa..(doesn't ask for anyone's specific opinion on it) and you say "wow what made you choose that"..I realize most of you "professionals really don't like me or anything I say but that's just pathetic!..
Rosewood gl with your spa!..and like Jim said it's now a jacuzzi:)
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Thanks, Guys!
He said it was one of the best spas made, so I'm real stoked.
They gave me an internet price on it, too.
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Their rep told me that this tub sets the standard for hot tubs. It has patented throttle valves, a removable serving tray and 74 jets. You just don't see anything like this every day!
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The guy spends good money and buys a spa..(doesn't ask for anyone's specific opinion on it) and you say "wow what made you choose that"..I realize most of you "professionals really don't like me or anything I say but that's just pathetic!..
Rosewood gl with your spa!..and like Jim said it's now a jacuzzi:)
After years of working on them I think that's a very fair statement. I'm sure he paid real big money for it. Hopefully since the jacuzzi buyout things have changed but Andy tournas is one of the biggest scumbags I have ever met in this industry and as far as I know he is still in charge of the day to day operations over there
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I really just meant..even if it is the biggest piece of junk,he already bought it so y not just wish him well..
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You guys don't think this is a good tub? I got the internet price.
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Because I'm hoping it hasn't been 3 days yet and he still has time to cancel. I wish him well and all but I would rather see him buy almost anything but that because of all the nightmares I have gone through with them over the years. I haven't seen anything they have put out in the last year or so but if you knew what I know about them you would say the same thing
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You guys don't think this is a good tub? I got the internet price.
Did you read any reviews on them anywhere or even just visit their facebook page?
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I saw a few bad reviews, but frankly, when I went on the Hot Springs website, their very own customers were ripping them apart. How do you know what to believe or not to believe?
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Besides, the guy gave me his internet price. I must have saved thousands.
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Gotcha hottubguy..hopefully he has smooth sailing
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I'm beginning to wonder if you guys really know anything about hot tubs here.
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It's a matter if you believe what were saying or not, doesn't sound like you do. Not knowing what I know now I would probably question it as well. I like many here have been in and around the spa industry for quite awhile, so yes the regulars here know what were talking about. Honestly I think we get tired of defending what we know ( I know I do) to people that come here looking for info on a particular spa, but don't want to accept what we have to say about it, then call us snobs for suggesting a better brand from a dealer..
How long you think your thermospa rep has been selling spas, do you know anything about him, where did he come from? My best guess is he's either a ex car salesman or possibly an out of work traveling spa slinger that show up at fairs and road shows. They usually know a lot about spa's and their competitors but they are also the types that will tell you just about anything to sell you a spa then say see ya. If you have an issue with your new spa call him and see what he says if you can even get a hold of him. I deal with them every year and trust me, they don't have your best interest at heart they think about their paycheck ?
Anhoo doesn't matter at this point, you got what you wanted and their was no way we were going to persuade you other wise. And for what ever reason you were tight lipped about it and that's your choice. I am sure you will be fine with your purchase so good luck again to you!
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Has anyone EVER met a salesman that said, "ours are #2, they sell #1 down the street".
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.....How do you know what to believe or not to believe?.....
There is no way for you to know that even if you bought a Hot Springs. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and excitement is in your heart. They all make the very same hot water. Look forward with excitement and enjoy soaking with your significant other on a starlit night :)
Once you analyze a purchase, digest what you can discover, make your decision, do not ask, or consider other people's opinions thereafter. There are 2 sides to the moon, one is a bright and sunny side, and the other is the darkside, but they are both the same moon. Your Hot Tub has a bright sunny side, and now they want to tell you about the dark side.
Be at peace with your decision and enjoy the Hot Water. ;)
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Clover..you conveyed my point perfectly..(much more eloquently)..
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Thank you guys. I appreciate the fact that you didn't beat me up one side and down the other.
I was just pulling your chain. I didn't buy a ThermoSpa. It was the end of the day, I had a glass of red wine and the rest is history. I appreciate the fact that you held back as well as you did. :)
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Besides, the guy gave me his internet price. I must have saved thousands.
The direct from the factory price? Because when you combine that with the internet price I think they pay you to buy one.
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The direct from the factory price? Because when you combine that with the internet price I think they pay you to buy one. [/quote]
You are correct, Tman.
They sent me a check.
I will be going to the Caribbean with the money.
There is enough left over, as well, for a few oil changes at Jiffy Lube.
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Your catching on.
Anyone who thinks they are getting more than what they pay for is low hanging fruit for a good salesman.
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Hey Tman,
The check was so large I can pick up a Caribbean ticket for you, as well.
We could knock down some cold ones and check out the hot babes in their thongs.
By the time we got back, Jiffy Lube might even be finished with our oil changes.
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Hey don't knock my guys at Jiffy Lube. They are the best, 10 minutes, 3 guys for 50 bucks, lubing the chassis, checking the air in the tires and re-filling the washer fluid!! Are you kiddin me. And it's 25 bucks for the oil and filter. They got wiper blades and belts if I need them and you get a free wash at my place. It's not a Jiffy Lube though, it's call McDonald Quick Lube. They said if I plug them they will give me a free wash upgrade.
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Tman,
I will keep that in mind. I'm sure those guys work their tails off and do a fine job.
I'll be waiting for you at the airport. :)
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I gota wait for my friend before I can leave. He went to the store to buy oil and filters to put on his shelf and he wants me to help him change his oil. He's been gone for 45 minutes so far and I figure we'll be done changin his oil in an hour then we're going to get rid of his old oil and filter so give us another hour and a half at least to clean up and stuff. Then i'll be on my way to the airport to meet you. If everything goes right.
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Now that's funny. I almost spit my coffee all over the monitor.
Tman, I hope you and your family have a very Merry Christmas!
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I saw a few bad reviews, but frankly, when I went on the Hot Springs website, their very own customers were ripping them apart. How do you know what to believe or not to believe?
On the Hot Spring site the reviews are unfiltered by a 3rd party. The small % of negative reviews are posted next to the 5 star review. That is how you know what is real…what to believe.
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Dan, I know Hot Springs is a great tub. My point is, there is so much negative information out there on all of the spas, including the major manufacturers, it's hard for most folks to know the good from the bad. At least it was for me. I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas.
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Dan, I know Hot Springs is a great tub. My point is, there is so much negative information out there on all of the spas, including the major manufacturers, it's hard for most folks to know the good from the bad. At least it was for me. I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas.
I get it. My point is that there is evidence that the reviews on the Hot Spring site are legit. And you are right. The net is hard place to get good info about what to buy. Wet test. Wet test.
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As far as reviews, there will always be someone not happy with something, same goes for spa's obviously. Any spa can have problems, but how the company you bought it from takes care of you can make all the difference in the world!
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As far as reviews, there will always be someone not happy with something, same goes for spa's obviously. Any spa can have problems, but how the company you bought it from takes care of you can make all the difference in the world!
Good post. I totally agree.
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Now that's funny. I almost spit my coffee all over the monitor.
Tman, I hope you and your family have a very Merry Christmas!
I hope you have a good holiday also.
I don't have a lot of family, but my girlfriend has a bunch for me to get my fill with. I will likely see my boys and their wife's for a few hours which will be nice. It's funny how they grow and become exactly what we were when they were growing up. I'm reminded of a Cat Stevens song.
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Yep!
Harry Chapin's "Cats in a Cradle" also comes to mind.
Wishing everyone here a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years!