Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: PatB52 on September 04, 2013, 12:15:39 pm
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I did a search of the forum for threads on this topic but most of the ones I found were very old.
The Hot Springs dealer said about half of his buyers go with their ACE water sanitizing system. Is it worth the $1,5000? Those of you that may have it, are you glad you bought it?
Pat (feeling overwhelmed and confused)
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Read this thread (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=37152) on another forum for pros/cons of the system. The main con is that it historically hasn't been very reliable so had maintenance issues. Some of these may have been worked out by now. We'll see how long the cells last in the newer systems.
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of the spas that are ACE compatible, we are selling about 65% of them with the ACE option. The biggest thing is starting up the system properly which is not hard to do..as for cell life like it was mentioned above that is to be determined, although we still have plenty of customers who bought in late 2009/early 2010 that are still on their original cell..(fyi cell has been updated/improved since then as well)
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Thanks for the answers. I did find that thread on the other forum today. It's kind of discouraging that they have taken so long to get the technology right. TwinCities, thanks for the vote of confidence on the system.
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Seems to me to be a lot easier and a lot less expensive to just add di-chlor. I suggest people read the owner's manual which can be found online. Here is a sample:
Spa Owner Responsibilities
• Balancing the pH level and Total Alkalinity to the “OK” range.
NOTe: The generation of chlorine from salt will cause the pH to drift upwards
initially. Check the pH level at least once a week after initial start-up, and once
a month after normal use patterns have been established. Adjust as needed to
maintain water quality. An extensively high pH will cause premature failure of
the system, cloudy water, and decreased effectiveness of the sanitizer.
• Maintaining low Hardness levels using the Vanishing Act calcium remover as
needed.
NOTe: The ACE system works best with low levels of calcium and minerals
in the water. Softened water prolongs the life of hot tub equipment, while
enhancing the soaking experience. The ideal hardness level when using the
ACE system is 50 ppm.
• Inputting Spa Size and Use Level.
• Checking chlorine level before each use after initial start-up to determine best
Use Level to maintain healthy water quality.
• Conducting a check up every 30 days, which includes testing and balancing the
spa water, and reconfirming Use Level.
NOTe: The 30-day cycle begins when the Use Level is confirmed at start-up,
and resets any time the Use Level is changed or re-confirmed. The water care
icon will flash as a reminder when each 30-day cycle is over.
• Establishing a chlorine residual at start up.
• Manually flushing plumbing lines by super-chlorinating or “shocking” the spa monthly.
ImPORTANT: Ensure that the chlorine level is always between 3-5ppm before using
the spa. Add chlorine manually if needed.
Another odd thing that I noticed in the manual is:
For proper sanitation, spas must be completely drained periodically. The number
of days between COMPLETE SPA DRAINAGE is equal to the volume of spa
water in liters, divided by 10 times the maximum number of daily spa users. Refill
spa with water and repeat DIRECTIONS FOR USE of the device.
A 400 gallon spa is approximately 1500 liters. If the house hold has 3 people that regularly use the spa, this formula indicates that you need to change the water every 50 days! So that means that you need to drain and go through the whole start-up procedure in less than 2 months.
I may not understand this properly, so please correct me if I am wrong. From the reading that I have done about this system, I can't imagine spending $1500 on it, plus the cost of replacement cells, when di-chlor is so cheap and easy.
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I am in the same boat - I am looking at getting an Envoy, which has the ACE system as an option - but the online reviews are hit-or-miss on the system. One Hot Springs dealer was neutral when I asked "do you recommend the system?". The other (150 miles away) advocated not getting it, noting how much each person sweat in a hot tub and basically made the argument that you *want to* change the water out quarterly for that reason. While I am not sure how true that is, the visceral impact coupled with the challenges people report in dealing with the system has me strongly leaning towards traditional water care. As I understand it you could easily retrofit the ACE system on at a later date, so perhaps in the future if it becomes more reliable I'd consider switching over.
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I am in the same boat - I am looking at getting an Envoy, which has the ACE system as an option - but the online reviews are hit-or-miss on the system. One Hot Springs dealer was neutral when I asked "do you recommend the system?". The other (150 miles away) advocated not getting it, noting how much each person sweat in a hot tub and basically made the argument that you *want to* change the water out quarterly for that reason. While I am not sure how true that is, the visceral impact coupled with the challenges people report in dealing with the system has me strongly leaning towards traditional water care. As I understand it you could easily retrofit the ACE system on at a later date, so perhaps in the future if it becomes more reliable I'd consider switching over.
Adding at a later date is also an option to consider....either way assuming you keep up with regular maintenance on the spa, they are not as hard to take care of as a lot of posts on here indicate. Keep the water in balance (pH, alk, CH) keep your filters clean, and also maintain a sanitizer level in the spa...pretty easy
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The basic Water Replacement Interval (WRI) formula used for commercial/public spas is the following:
WRI (days) = (1/3) x (Spa Size in Gallons) / (# of people per day)
The presumption is a 20 minute soak so in person-hours it's (1/9) x (Spa Size in Gallons) / (# of person-hours per day) and this assumes a hot (104ºF) spa during the soak. So two people soaking for 20 minutes every day in a 350 gallon spa would be (1/9) x (350) / (2*(20/60)) = 58 days. That rule works when using Dichlor-only. If you use Dichlor-then-bleach, you can usually get around double the time so around 120 days (4 months) and the water won't be in as bad shape when you do change it. With Dichlor-only, the CYA level builds up making chlorine less effective so the water builds up more unoxidized organics and gets dull faster. This all assumes there is no ozonator.
The ACE formula of (Volume in liters) / (10 * # of people per day) = (1/2.64) *(Volume in Gallons) / (# of people per day) so is roughly similar to the commercial/public spa formula where the ACE interval is a little longer.
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Those are suggested formulas. In the real world, I know of no home owner who follows them.
Using ACE has nothing to do with saving money. It is about the quality of the water.
If you want silky, non skin drying water, consider the ACE system.
It is performing far better now than 1st gen. Much easier for customers to understand.
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The ACE™ Salt Water Sanitizing System Manual (http://www.atlanticspasandbilliards.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ACE-Salt-Water-Sanitizing-System-Owners-Manual.pdf) under water guidelines says 3 ppm for chlorine, but if one does that with no Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water then the chlorine will be far too strong and will oxidize swimsuits, skin and hair much faster. If one wants to not have the chlorine effects on one's body, then one should add CYA to the spa, probably around 30-40 ppm. This is similar to why using bleach in a spa without first using Dichlor to raise the CYA level is too harsh and also worse on spa covers.
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And if you kept it closer to 1 ppm?
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If you mean with no CYA in the water, then yes 1 ppm FC will be less harsh than 3 ppm FC. It will still be higher than, say, 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA which would be equivalent to 0.5 ppm FC with no CYA at 104ºF or at 90ºF would be equivalent to 0.2 ppm.
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What does it cost for a new cell?
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Hmm crickets! Why isn't anyone telling me how much a new cell costs? Find out from your dealer what it costs for parts before you purchase a tub from any company. These cells are proprietary, meaning you can only get them from that company. Meaning they can charge you what ever they want. Find out the facts of your long term costs of a product before you buy!
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Hmm crickets! Why isn't anyone telling me how much a new cell costs? Find out from your dealer what it costs for parts before you purchase a tub from any company. These cells are proprietary, meaning you can only get them from that company. Meaning they can charge you what ever they want. Find out the facts of your long term costs of a product before you buy!
your hear crickets because nobody is going to fall into your childish argument...if your a dealer we get it, your losing sales and you want to go online to grind your axe...if your not a dealer then I don't understand why you care so much. Should we start a thread for every single accessory on a spa that is expensive? Tv's, Clearray, Sony stereo's, Covanas? We are one of the biggest dealers in the Midwest and of the tubs that are ACE compatible 70% of the customers are buying the ACE, and despite what you think the majority of the people are loving it as an option so deal with it and maybe learn how to sell your own product a little better instead of worrying what everyone else is doing
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Yes I do sell another brand Arctic Spas. We do tell customers what our cells cost to replace when buying $79. I'm not sure how many customers I'm losing to Hot Springs but it's not many but I'm sure some. If I lose even one customer that's too many. However I want customers to make an informed decision. When they have all the facts that customer will be happy with there purchase no matter what spa they buy. So why not give customers the info? Probably because the the part over $700. I understand recurring revenue, but Ouch and that was what a customer quoted after hearing that price of $845.
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Not sure which salt system you have but that can make a huge difference as well. If it's the Gecko brand one or Genesis they are not going to be the same as what the ACE system is, nor are the parts going to be either. Though both essentially achieve the same results. I could care less about salt systems, it's just another tool to sell a spa, like ClearRay or ozone systems, but if Jacuzzi had it I would sell it, why wouldn't you.. I honestly don't know why Jacuzzi or Sundance have not gotten on board with some kind of salt system. If some people want it why not give it to them, sure we as a company could go there but were doing fine with what we have in Jacuzzi...
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The pricing information is public and well known. The ACE system sells for $1500 when added separately though can be found discounted to $1300 at American Sale (http://www.americansale.com/Products/ACE-Salt-Water-Spa-Sanitizing-System-by-Hot-Spring__580267.aspx). When done as an option to an existing spa, the ACE system may be discounted further (as you know, dealer prices are discretionary). As for the replacement cell, this post (http://www.troublefreepool.com/ace-system-hot-springs-grandee-t55139.html) at the beginning of the year quoted $845 which is consistent with what you heard.
It's a premium system with premium pricing. You can think of the system as a combination chlorine generator and ozonator because the boron-doped diamond electrodes do just that -- they generate chlorine from the chloride in salt and they generate hydroxyl radicals from water. An ozonator generates ozone, but when ozone breaks down it produces hydroxyl radicals. The idea is to oxidize bather waste before chlorine has a chance to react with it and that minimizes chlorinated disinfection by-products. The residual of chlorine left in the spa is the bulk-water disinfectant.
It is interesting that the manual for the system makes no mention of using Cyanuric Acid (CYA) aka stabilizer or conditioner. Without CYA in the water, the recommended chlorine target minimum of 3 ppm (maximum of 5 ppm) will be harsh on swimsuits, skin and hair and will outgas chlorine faster to degrade hot tub covers. By using 30-40 ppm CYA in the water, this effect can be significantly lessened by a factor of roughly 8 to 30, depending on temperature. I suppose this isn't that surprising since the chlorine/CYA relationship is something not well understood in the pool/spa industry except that CYA protects chlorine breakdown from sunlight. CYA's significant moderating effect on the active chlorine level isn't brought up except in a negative way when the CYA level is too high.
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New aftermarket replacement cell now available called the "Chromium" - Direct replacement
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Nice shill post
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Haha, besides the resurrection, my local HS dealer did say there was after market cells available for significantly less... maybe part of the reason for freshwater salt system? Who knows...