Hot Tub Forum
Original => Hot Tub Forum => Topic started by: steel_3d on June 10, 2013, 05:00:46 am
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Convince me why I should not get this: http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Belize-e750L-Lounger-Spa-P9749C646.aspx - The Belize E750L from soadepot.com.
It seems to be built with decent technology. Can't seem to find any horror stories online, except regarding bad customer service.
I'm not very picky, don't care about wet tests, a million jets and a million horsepower. This needs to be large, to fit a bunch of people at a party, work decently for an evening soak with my wife (if the water's hot I think we'll be happy), be reasonably energy efficient, and it shouldn't break down too much (I fix most things myself).
If not this, what are my options?
Please don't give me the lecture about how scary it is to buy something online. I know the risks. I need hard facts.
Thanks!
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I won't lecture you on the risks, it seems like you know those already.
My approach would be why?
If you can get a reputable brand for the same amount of money, for a unknown, why not?
To name a few, the Hot Spot Relay, Jacuzzi J-235, Sundance Peyton, Caldera Marino... there are more, but you catch what I am trying to say. All of these would be from someone local, there to provide customer service, should you need it.
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why not look at a EMERALD or any of the others that were mentioned? Myself would not spend this kind of money without some face to face contact and somewhere to go if I had problems with the tub. All mfg's have problems at least once in a while with a tub here or there. It is how the dealer responds that really matters in my opinion. Just remember all decisions have consequences. :o
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take a look at this..if you dont want to go to dealer,at lerast ypu;; have costo backing it...http://www.costco.com/Evolution-Spas%e2%84%a2-Cedar-Creek-70-jet%2c-6-person-Spas.product.100038292.html
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My concerns as a consumer would be it's a big unknown. You can't judge the quality of the tub by the website. What brand of pumps (it looks like they advertise Peak HP, which is a bit misleading). It says it has balboa controls, a known company but technicians have told me there are different tiers of Balboa products. I'd be concerned of the build quality.
The warranty isn’t very good: 2 years on the controls and industry standard is 5. 3 years on plumbing. Industry standard is 5. You have to pay to ship things back. If the tub goes bad, you pay for all removal costs. Operating the tub below 40 degrees voids the warranty.
You’re on your own with set up and installation.
It's made by Hydra Plastics; they put out a more traditional spa sold through dealers: Clearwater which has a mediocre reputation. This looks to be their discount cousin.
There are enough complaints about warranty and customer service out there on the net that I would be concerned.
At that price it looks like you're going to be getting a lower end tub with poor warranty and bad service. It will probably give you a few years of use before it starts to have problems. If you are in a colder climate, I'm not a fan of the Thermal pane insulating technology on the lower end tubs. You may find yourself with some expensive electrical bills in the winter.
I'd recommend talking to someone who has owned on for several years, as well as talking with a repair technician who is knowledgeable about this brand. And for what it’s worth since this will be a $6K investment that will be sitting in your yard for many years (hopefully), why not go out and look at the reputable brand names, if only to have a better understanding of what's out there. I'd ask the dealer the same question, why not buy the Belize?
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There are as many unknowns on this type crapshoot as there is setting up a date with someone you've met only on the internet where all you have to go by are their answers to some questions and a picture that you hope is representative but in the end the pic is never a match with reality and the answers are what you wanted to hear but not necessarily the whole truth.
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like d00nut mentioned above with around a 6k budget you have better local options....better spas, better warranties, better 'after the sale' support
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Ok. Can you guys keep throwing out names for good choices in this price range and size category? I'd like to have some sort of idea what I'm looking at when I walk into a store.
Thanks for your help so far.
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Steel,
Take at look at the Tiger River and Caldera also has some lower priced tubs. These are both tubs made by Watkins and have a solid reputaiton.
What ever you decide to go with, it makes sense to take a look at what's out there.
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In that price range you have many options. Hot Springs Hot Spot line, Jacuzzi 200 series, Nordic, Caldara vescenza series, Sundance. Most manufacturers have something in that price range
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My concerns as a consumer would be it's a big unknown. You can't judge the quality of the tub by the website. What brand of pumps (it looks like they advertise Peak HP, which is a bit misleading). It says it has balboa controls, a known company but technicians have told me there are different tiers of Balboa products. I'd be concerned of the build quality.
The warranty isn’t very good: 2 years on the controls and industry standard is 5. 3 years on plumbing. Industry standard is 5. You have to pay to ship things back. If the tub goes bad, you pay for all removal costs. Operating the tub below 40 degrees voids the warranty.
You’re on your own with set up and installation.
It's made by Hydra Plastics; they put out a more traditional spa sold through dealers: Clearwater which has a mediocre reputation. This looks to be their discount cousin.
There are enough complaints about warranty and customer service out there on the net that I would be concerned.
At that price it looks like you're going to be getting a lower end tub with poor warranty and bad service. It will probably give you a few years of use before it starts to have problems. If you are in a colder climate, I'm not a fan of the Thermal pane insulating technology on the lower end tubs. You may find yourself with some expensive electrical bills in the winter.
I'd recommend talking to someone who has owned on for several years, as well as talking with a repair technician who is knowledgeable about this brand. And for what it’s worth since this will be a $6K investment that will be sitting in your yard for many years (hopefully), why not go out and look at the reputable brand names, if only to have a better understanding of what's out there. I'd ask the dealer the same question, why not buy the Belize?
Clearwater actually makes some nice tubs. The biggest issue that I see are the lang circ pumps being slightly unreliable. I'm not familiar with this specific tub, but their main line has some very good tubs at reasonable prices.
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Can you elaborate a bit more? What is lang circ?
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Lang is a company that makes pumps. Clearwater has used Lang for the small circulation pumps in their hot tubs. Their jet pumps are aqua-flo which are very reliable. Some of the Lang pumps have been unreliable. They have an option for another circulation pump now.
That being said, the spa that you are looking at is not equivalent to their spa's sold through dealer networks. They are using their old molds and jets from years ago. They are also misrepresenting the number of jets by listing the number of nozzles. That thing does not have 93 jets. The warranty is pretty terrible as well. Labor is only 6 months. The frame is made from wood. I have seen the cabinet panels that they are using and they are much flimsier and cheaper than their regular line.
Basically, you can go to a dealer and get a full Clearwater for pretty close to that price and it would be a much better tub with the full warranty and dealer support. You would also get full delivery, not curbside. Spa depot says that their business model eliminates the middle man to save you money. This is BS. Spa Depot is the middle man. And that really isn't such an amazing deal. I would not purchase that spa. You can get much better options in that price range.
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I talked to the Spa Depot today and clarified a few more things.
It seems that the Belize is a thermal pane model and is full plastic construction. This seems promising to me, as repairs should be super simple on it even if it does break. I assume TP means there's zero foam in the tub. Also has guillotine shutoffs and an equipment compartment that I associate with more expensive models, and are definitely good things. The controls are Balboa VS500, which seems decent. Some pictures of the construction are visible under "more photos": http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Belize-e750-Hot-Tub-Spa-P9750C646.aspx
Is the 3yr shell surface warranty a bad sign?
All in all, if TP makes repairs relatively easy, I might be ok with jumping on this. To get the same level of technology, I'd have to spend closer to 10k retail, which is really pushing the budget.
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TP makes repair easier and it makes thinning your wallet easier as your power bill rises. But if your down in the southern part of the country?
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I'm late coming to this thread. I think one thing newbies to frequently is over buy size wise. Visions of big parties with lots of friends doesn't happen nearly as often as one might think. In 10 years, our tub has had 2 people 75% of the time, 3 people 24% of the time and that leaves about 1% for more than 3.
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I think you should jump in with both feet for the Belize. You asked the ones here to talk you out of buying it, but then after some very important issues as to why you shouldn't buy it, you come back with another thread for the Belize. You asked, these guys spoke. It's your money; buy it and then come back and tell everyone after a while if you made the right choice or not. Simple. Good luck with your choice. 8)
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I talked to the Spa Depot today and clarified a few more things.
It seems that the Belize is a thermal pane model and is full plastic construction. This seems promising to me, as repairs should be super simple on it even if it does break. I assume TP means there's zero foam in the tub. Also has guillotine shutoffs and an equipment compartment that I associate with more expensive models, and are definitely good things. The controls are Balboa VS500, which seems decent. Some pictures of the construction are visible under "more photos": http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Belize-e750-Hot-Tub-Spa-P9750C646.aspx
Is the 3yr shell surface warranty a bad sign?
All in all, if TP makes repairs relatively easy, I might be ok with jumping on this. To get the same level of technology, I'd have to spend closer to 10k retail, which is really pushing the budget.
this spa doesn't have any new technology, you get what you pay for just like anything else in life...that said for a cheap spa it might work just fine for you..good luck with your purchase
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I think you should jump in with both feet for the Belize. You asked the ones here to talk you out of buying it, but then after some very important issues as to why you shouldn't buy it, you come back with another thread for the Belize. You asked, these guys spoke. It's your money; buy it and then come back and tell everyone after a while if you made the right choice or not. Simple. Good luck with your choice. 8)
No need to be facetious. I'm asking technical questions, after seeing a few spas in various price ranges and seeing how they are built. This one is built the way I like, without foam, without wood, with a proper equipment bay, and all the other things I listed. Definitely not new tech, just tech I intuitively think I like, because I know I'll have to make repairs eventually, no matter what brand I choose.
Some people might even learn something from the information I gathered. But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know everything, which is why I'm asking for an intelligent discussion, and people's specific experiences. Also, people who have replied might not have been familiar with the construction of this particular tub, as I wasn't, and they might have based their comments on different models. Nobody other than Sam has had any experience with Clearwater?
And yes, I do live in the warm part of LA, which makes a bit of a difference. I also think that there are ways to make TP tubs more efficient with a bit of diy insulation... But again, if there's a night and day difference, that's the kind of experiences I want to hear. Is it gonna cost me 50% more? 100% more?? 50 bucks a month extra is not gonna break the bank, but it's definitely a consideration, and I would like an efficient tub out of principle, is possible. They say the insulation is r20, and the base is insulated, of course. Not sure if all TP tubs are made equal.
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All TP tubs are not made equal. The concept is that the waste heat generated from the pump motors during operation is used to create the R-Factor. However, if 4 hours of filtering is required to keep your water clean then the pump motors are not running for 20 hours or the majority or the day. This is the crucial time for this insulation design. A slight breeze wicks all the warmth out of the inside of the cabinet very quickly causing the pumps to kick on to heat again and again.
There are some TP designs that have combated this with an almost sealed cabinet but they are more expensive and Arctic is the only one I have seen that does it as close to right as possible. And then you have to deal with the problem of subjecting your pump motors to a super heated environment that very likely will shorten the life expectancy of the motors and electronic controls. And when it is very warm outside overheating water that won't cool to your set temp is an issue.
Storing the vessel heat in the vessel is how FF works and separating the motors and electronics from the vessel stores the heat in the water and not the plumbing. Yet insulating the plumbing to reduce heat loss. This is why this design is still popular, because it works well. Absolutely it is harder to fix a leak in the foam encased plumbing but leaks are rare no matter what a TP tub salesman tells you and fixing them is no big deal for an experienced tech or DIYer with moxy.
When you weight the pro's and cons of both designs the engineers likely didn't have enough cons in the FF design to scrap it. If 98% of Hot Tub leaks are in the equipment bay then why redesign insulation that works well for the 2% of leaks in the foam. Why not do your engineering and design in preventing leaks in the foam.
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No need to be facetious. I'm asking technical questions, after seeing a few spas in various price ranges and seeing how they are built. This one is built the way I like, without foam, without wood, with a proper equipment bay, and all the other things I listed. Definitely not new tech, just tech I intuitively think I like, because I know I'll have to make repairs eventually, no matter what brand I choose.
I wasn't trying to be facetious. You asked for something and you got it but it wasn't what you wanted to hear so you went back to what you seemed to have your sights set on. Nothing wrong with that but it's like being lost in a strange town, stopping and asking a local citizen for directions, then drive off in the opposite direction. Just my observation. Again, good luck with your search/purchase. Hopefully, with whichever brand you choose, it will be a good one giving you many years of service.
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$50 bucks a month not a big deal? That's $600 a year. In 5 years that's $3000. So if the spa starts leaking after 5 years, which would be a very rare occurrence, you've now spent three thousand dollars, to save maybe a couple hundred on a repair...sounds like a pretty bad investment to me.
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$50 bucks a month not a big deal? That's $600 a year. In 5 years that's $3000. So if the spa starts leaking after 5 years, which would be a very rare occurrence, you've now spent three thousand dollars, to save maybe a couple hundred on a repair...sounds like a pretty bad investment to me.
What interest % rate are we using for the calculation?
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Doesn't look like any interest rate is in that one. 50 * 12 * 5 = 3000.
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Doesn't look like any interest rate is in that one. 50 * 12 * 5 = 3000.
I knew that, just being a smartazz. Personally I would never sacricfice years of energy efficiency for ease of repair down the road as long as I know I'm getting a quality made product but the shopper needs to make that decision.
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Doesn't look like any interest rate is in that one. 50 * 12 * 5 = 3000.
I knew that, just being a smartazz. Persoanlly I would never years of sacricfice energy efficiency for ease of repair down the road as long as I know I'm getting a quality made product but the shopper needs to make that decision.
8) ;D
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Man you guys are tough!...and I was too lazy to calculate interest :-). I was going to go with the 10 calculation, which would show that in 10 years you would have saved the entire cost of the spa just in energy savings...But then Roger would have come down on me saying, "come on, you REALLY think a spa of this quality will last 10 years?"
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A house does a pretty good job of "sealing" itself off from the outside elements...but that doesn't mean if I decide to build a house down the road that I'll tell the contractor to "skip the insulation" so I can save a few bucks, oh and because the water line for my bathroom MAY leak 10 years down the road...I'm sorry but the sales pitch for thermopane is the most asinine thing ever
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if you can squeeze a little more out of your budget the caldera palentino is big (89"x89"x38"), and an excellent performer.
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Man you guys are tough!...and I was too lazy to calculate interest :-). I was going to go with the 10 calculation, which would show that in 10 years you would have saved the entire cost of the spa just in energy savings...But then Roger would have come down on me saying, "come on, you REALLY think a spa of this quality will last 10 years?"
10 years phtttttt
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TP done properly can be very energy efficient. Clearwater does it properly. The outside is sealed. There is no insulation on the shell and the outer insulation has a reflective layer. From what I understand, no insulation on the shell is an integral part of this working. By putting it on the shell (in a tp design) you are preventing the heat from the equipment compartment from also warming the shell which contacts the water. Clearwater also uses an insulated, floating floor. Again, from what I understand, this is another important factor in this working well. Isolating the spa from the cold ground or cold air under your deck. They also don't use low density expanding spray foam, but a rigid, dense board insulation with the reflective layer.
It's been stated ad naseum, but all TP are not created equal. TP spas can be efficient, and Clearwater Spas are one of them. I'm not educated in thermodynamics or anything, but my anecdotal evidence shows CW to be a very efficient TP spa with a concept that makes sense. They should be $10 - $25 per month here in Colorado. This is what we tell our customers and have never had anyone come back saying that it was inaccurate.